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Dragon's Crown Reviews

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T

TCKaos

Member
Cyrano said:
No, it's as much about their personality and the warping of reality to fit an objectifying aesthetic[b/]. The character animations are where a lot of this personality comes from and good grief is it ever problematic there (again, gravity-defying breasts seem to be very popular these days - I could bring in some pictures of Skyrim mods to make comparisons of how whacky this is if you're interested; though it gets creepy really quickly).
Click to expand...


So you're saying that their appearance is innately objectifying? I mean, yeah, if your breasts are big they're gonna' jiggle. That's not defying physics. She also walks upright with her shoulders up and tall with pride in her stride. I don't see how the fact that her breasts jiggle negate that she's powerful and has all of the agency that the male characters do.
 
K

Knux-Future

Banned
ochaworldorder said:
Not too go too OT since like Dragon's Crown has no (afaik) major character writing to discuss here, but while I get what you're saying that seems to come more from the "lol Japan" strain of thinking (also annoying in its own right) and typically happens pre-release, when we mostly have the character designs and not the story to go on.
I can't really think of a currently released FF where a male protagonist is outright dismissed the way I see people do with female characters. I mean, most people dislike Vaan as a person AND for his weird vest but I don't see the "oh boob armor, no buy!" type dismissal of all character discussion that I feel goes on due to the physical depiction of female characters.
Click to expand...

Vahn as a character isn't that bad. a Bit generic and pointless to the main plot but the main issue was his looks sadly.

Tidus kind of got the same shit.

It was mainly due to the whole androgyny thing dying out by then ad the american market was moving on to more "manly" leads
 
C

Cyrano

Member
Knux-Future said:
Rape is bad because you are forcabally taking somethign from someone.

Murder is bad because you are taking someone's life (although thats cool in gaming lol)

This isn't over time learning this but rather because no fucking shit it's bad.

A game in which EVERYTHING is sexualized (whatever) is bad because?????

It's not as easy to define as problematic as the previous two because it's up to each person. If someone takes this game as sign of any realism or self worth then they have bigger issues.

Btw my initial post was just stating that the whole idea behind the designs was to be extreme versions of D&D tropes....which he fucking did.

but it simply comes down to if you think sexualizing stuff is bad. I don't. You do.

fuck
Click to expand...
No, the reason you see rape and murder as bad or wrong is because you have been raised in a society that sees these issues as bad or wrong. For a long time in male-dominated societies, there was no punishment for rape. Assaulting a female wasn't seen as problematic in the same way that it's seen as problematic now (Judeo-Christian mores sort-of kind-of changed this in the west, though it wasn't codified until much later in male history). That's a societal more that you have come to terms with being raised in a society which determined, at a very young age, that this was something you didn't do.

The same thing is true with sexual objectification. You grew up in a society (I did too) that said, for decades, that this stuff was acceptable. It's hard to admit that society might be wrong about this. It's far easier to accept that somehow it's normative when it's not.

TCKaos said:
So you're saying that their appearance is innately objectifying? I mean, yeah, if your breasts are big they're gonna' jiggle. That's not defying physics. She also walks upright with her shoulders up and tall with pride in her stride. I don't see how the fact that her breasts jiggle negate that she's powerful and has all of the agency that the male characters do.
Click to expand...
Gravity-defying breasts aren't "normal." Breasts that large would sag, and sag tremendously. What's more, the female would probably be hunched over due to their weight, as there's no way to realistically hold them up with such a small frame. Again, even if we're talking fantasy we can assume that there are things like gravity, giving that when the characters jump, they come back down to Earth. Certain aspects of characters seem exist outside of such realities however, giving rise to mystical, gravity-defying breasts.

What's more, even from a statistical standpoint NONE of the women are as powerful as the men. The Sorceress's INT is A, the Wizard's INT is S. There's not a lot of explanation given here, but it does say that there is a mechnical implication that women are weaker than men in all faculties, even when women are pursuing the same practice (Wizardry). The case of the Amazon versus the Fighter/Dwarf presents the same mechanical problems. Even if there is some truth to differences in physical stature in the real world, if anything (including gravity-defying breasts) can exist in a fantastical game world, then it makes sense that females can be just as powerful, mechanically, as males. Yet they are not in this game.
 
J

JackDT

Member
Knux-Future said:
If that's how I am coming off then I appologize as that isn't my intent.

I just get really tired of the passive aggressive nature of many to insult others in an attempt to make themselves superior.

You are free to not like anything and even criticize it but it's when you start throwing out the sexist and objectifying words is where I get uneasy. Those aren't just..I think this looks gross. That is now I think this is sexist garbage. Liking anything that is ist, means that you too are a sexist or whatever...which isn't fair to be labeled something that strongly just because you don't feel as strongly as them. Many people have said that they didn't like it because it looks gross, it is embarrassing or whatever. I think it's silly or don't agree but fine but just don't insult those who do like it on your way out. "I don't like this because it is sexist but it's okay that you like it.. but it is sexist" is a comment that feels of you want that person to not like it or feel bad about liking it to me. Could be reaching.

and in the end, I tend to come off super strong in these threads because I think the targets have been awful. I wasn't apart of the Tomb Raider stuff because..well I kinda agreed. But also these games aren't going to change the industry but also they aren't the industry. They are niche games that aren't going to hurt anyone and for the most part it can be explained. and I also just think it is a witchhunt at this point instead of actively trying to change things for the better. I am black. There are very few great black characters in games. But that's probably due to people begin scared of offending anyone so they dont even try. We will get to that point soon because even female characters that are strong, they get labled as Dudes with Boobs...so fuck. I think change happens from positive promotion instead of all this negativity.

So I guess it comes back to that. It gets depressing around here that everyone is so negative about everything lol.

But in short (lol), I don't mind criticism as long as it doesn't end in an perhaps unintended insult. People need to quit throwing around words like sexist or objectifying women. That paints a much broader picture than "I think this looks like shit" sure someone can get mad over having their taste questioned but that's better than having your entire character questioned. I don't like them but I also hated when fans of those Atellier games basically get called pedos...like wtf. it just reminds me too much of school in which if you liked something you were gay or not grown up.

I thought we were past that.
Click to expand...

I don't see a difference between, "I feel gross when I play this" and "I feel this art objectifies women so I feel gross when I play this"

From the intensity of the comments it's like people are hearing "If you buy this game you hate women and you should burn in hell for eternity." or something.
 
R

RoKKeR

Member
meltingparappa said:
How did this thread go from depictions of larger than normal breasts to people subtly accuse each other of being ok with rape?
Click to expand...

GAF.gif, etc.

Can't say I'm surprised at how this thread has turned out. Dragon's Crown looks like a fun game, the reviewers like it, and I'll be playing it.
 
S

Sgt.Pepper

Banned
Didn't a bunch of women gave their opinions on the last big pile of crap last time? About attacking the wrong thing, et cetera et cetera.
 
JordanN

JordanN

Banned
So will the GTA V review threads have the same amount of moral outrage when you can shoot a prostitute in the back of the head with an Uzi or is a camera vaguely pointed at a fully dressed female knight's crotch clearly more evil and "teenage" like?

Sucks one of the first games I've been hyped for in a while gets treated like this. :(
 
A

Angry Puppy

Member
Jarmel said:
PWeFi4c.jpg
Click to expand...

im laughing at anyone trying to defend this
 
N

Nibiru

Banned
JordanN said:
So will the GTA V review threads have the same amount of moral outrage when you can shoot a prostitute in the back of the head with an Uzi or is a camera vaguely pointed at a fully dressed female knight's crotch clearly more evil and "teenage" like?

Sucks one of the first games I've been hyped for in a while gets treated like this. :(
Click to expand...

I can't wait to see the Polygon review for that. It's not a ps3 exclusive though so they will love it.
 
L

Lambtron

Unconfirmed Member
JordanN said:
So will the GTA V review threads have the same amount of moral outrage when you can shoot a prostitute in the back of the head with an Uzi or is a camera vaguely pointed at a fully dressed female knight's crotch clearly more evil and "teenage" like?

Sucks one of the first games I've been hyped for in a while gets treated like this. :(
Click to expand...
I certainly have a hell of a lot more issue with how you can murder sex workers in GTA, but really the art in DC is really embarrassing. I'm 31 years old. My wife and I are both getting copies for the Vita. But it's really, really gross.
 
W

Wensih

Member
"Dragon’s Crown is about to put Vanillaware on the map."

I don't think that this game is going to sell millions and put Vanillaware on the map. People who browse forums for video games already know who Vanillaware is, but the average person probably won't still, silly IGN.
 
K

Knux-Future

Banned
JackDT said:
I don't see a difference between, "I feel gross when I play this" and "I feel this art objectifies women so I feel gross when I play this"

From the intensity of the comments it's like people are hearing "If you buy this game you hate women and you should burn in hell for eternity." or something.
Click to expand...

Yeah I guess so.

It's more so the word choice then. Sexist is a strong word to throw around.

Cyrano said:
No, the reason you see rape and murder as bad or wrong is because you have been raised in a society that sees these issues as bad or wrong. For a long time in male-dominated societies, there was no punishment for rape. Assaulting a female wasn't seen as problematic in the same way that it's seen as problematic now. That's a societal more that you have come to terms with being raised in a society which determined, at a very young age, that this was something you didn't do.

The same thing is true with sexual objectification. You grew up in a society (I did too) that said, for decades, that this stuff was acceptable. It's hard to admit that society might be wrong about this. It's far easier to accept that somehow it's normative when it's not.


Gravity-defying breasts aren't "normal." Breasts that large would sag, and sag tremendously. What's more, the female would probably be hunched over due to their weight, as there's no way to realistically hold them up with such a small frame. Again, even if we're talking fantasy we can assume that there are things like gravity, giving that when the characters jump, they come back down to Earth. Certain aspects of characters seem exist outside of such realities however, giving rise to mystical, gravity-defying breasts.

What's more, even from a statistical standpoint NONE of the women are as powerful as the men. The Sorceress's INT is A, the Wizard's INT is S. There's not a lot of explanation given here, but it does say that there is a mechnical implication that women are weaker than men in all faculties, even when women are pursuing the same practice (Wizardry). The case of the Amazon versus the Fighter/Dwarf presents the same mechanical problems. Even if there is some truth to differences in physical stature in the real world, if anything (including gravity-defying breasts) can exist in a fantastical game world, then it makes sense that females can be just as powerful, mechanically, as males. Yet they are not in this game.
Click to expand...

No I see rape and murder as bad because someone is getting something taken from them without their consent. I didn't need society to tell me that. I'm not seeing the connection here.


and regardless of that..no shit this game isnt realistic. You are placing normalcy on a gmae in which a midget is buff as fuck and can jump 50 feet in the air and toss goblins and shit. Also magic exists. Why are you placing societal norms on fantasy game?
and yet again..the exaggeration is the goddam point. Like what is even your problem at this point? A fantasy game doesn't have realistic boobs? k? and?
 
M

meltingparappa

Member
JordanN said:
So will the GTA V review threads have the same amount of moral outrage when you can shoot a prostitute in the back of the head with an Uzi or is a camera vaguely pointed at a fully dressed female knight's crotch clearly more evil and "teenage" like?
Click to expand...
Oscar-caliber GTA4 features Brucie and a sandwich shop called "Jizzy Jim's" and somehow this is the "teenage game".
 
D

Deitus

Member
meltingparappa said:
How did this thread go from depictions of larger than normal breasts to people subtly accuse each other of being ok with rape?
Click to expand...

It happens in most sexism threads. Now that I think if it, it just might be the Godwin's Law of sexism threads.

Sgt.Pepper said:
Didn't a bunch of women gave their opinions on the last big pile of crap last time? About attacking the wrong thing, et cetera et cetera.
Click to expand...

Yes. I'll refrain from making the smug remark I was considering, but lets just say they were ignored in that thread, and women making similar remarks have been ignored in this thread as well.
 
K

Knux-Future

Banned
Thanasis Deitus said:
It happens in most sexism threads. Now that I think if it, it just might be the Godwin's Law of sexism threads.



Yes. I'll refrain from making the smug remark I was considering, but lets just say they were ignored in that thread, and women making similar remarks have been ignored in this thread as well.
Click to expand...

To be fair, they were also women who didn't like it as well.

I tend to respect their opinions more as you know..they are actually women.
 
C

Cyrano

Member
Knux-Future said:
Yeah I guess so.

It's more so the word choice then. Sexist is a strong word to throw around.
Click to expand...
No it's not. It's a word that should invoke discussion, but it tends to just invoke people shouting that something either is or isn't, regardless of whether or not that's the point.



No I see rape and murder as bad because someone is getting something taken from them without their consent. I didn't need society to tell me that. I'm not seeing the connection here.
Click to expand...
Yes you did. You needed society to tell you how to speak, how to write, how to consider the world around you. Opinions and lifestyles don't emerge from the ether. Society creates those determinations and people follow them, sometimes dangerously.


and regardless of that..no shit this game isnt realistic. You are placing normalcy on a gmae in which a midget is buff as fuck and can jump 50 feet in the air and toss goblins and shit. Also magic exists. Why are you placing societal norms on fantasy game?
and yet again..the exaggeration is the goddam point. Like what is even your problem at this point? A fantasy game doesn't have realistic boobs? k? and?
Click to expand...
I'm not placing societal norms on the game (though we can do that if assume that sexism is normative, in which case the game is reflecting society)... the game itself is problematic from its usage of its own, internal mechanics? It's problematic even as a microcosm?
 
N

Nibiru

Banned
This game looks like awesome fun. We kill everything in video games these days and there is more violence in them then ever before. The outrage over this game is so disingenuous.

This might sound crazy but I wouldn't be surprised if the most outraged are just xbox fanboys that are pissed it is just on ps3. It is the only thing that makes sense because in this current age of games i can't for the life of me see how this is worse than most of the fps or open world games out atm.
 
T

Tricky I Shadow

Banned
Excellent reviews! Pretty much exactly what I was expecting.

As for the whole boob’s thing that’s going on in this thread (why am I not surprised) - I’m a straight male and even I think its extremely stupid and would rather it not be in the game, but to say its disrespecting women? Lighten up. I showed my mum all of this stuff and she simply laughed at it, saying this is disrespecting women and getting really offended by it just reeks of “Look at me! Look at me!” Life is way too short to take this kind of nonsense so seriously. It’s just a videogame. Get some perspective and complain about something that's really worth complaining about. Sheesh.
 
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