But why is that a bad thing?
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Dragon's Crown Reviews
- Thread starter ponpo
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But why is that a bad thing?
Same as me... the gold then the dog's teeth lol.
What kind of perv would be staring at the low contrast crotch area.
I noticed the dog because of those red eyes. I'm just attracted to the color, I guess
Funchameleon
Banned
I can't fucking stop laughing at this. "Wow it's a period/concept piece and they used reference from the period! Wow such art"
If you look straight at the picture, the first thing you see is the chastity belt. The camera is positioned perfectly to get a clear shot of her crotch.
Honestly the first thing I saw was the giant dog head and then the gold.
I at least don't think it's a bad thing but I think it's disingenuous to also say that the art isn't sexually charged.
meltingparappa
Member
Because clearly all art direction for a game just happens in a vacuum, and thus there is nothing to appreciate what it's specifically drawing from.
djplaeskool
Member
I think it's a good counterpoint to those who are dismissing the design as purely puerile.
It's not a period piece (unless allusions to Disney and Monty Python grant that status), but it's certainly not amateurish.
Rickenslacker
Banned
If it's like VW's other console efforts it'll be easy to grab at a low pricepoint down the line.
meltingparappa
Member
Financially safest to assume it'll drop in price. NEVER get into the volatile videogame speculation business.
The mini-artbook might tip the scale in favor of it going up, but if a full artbook is released later it'll drive it back down to a normal price.
You'll find that people on both sides of the argument can be super obtuse if it suits their purposes.
Honestly, it's pretty funny, as an observer.
Yeah, seriously. What makes it worse is that a lot of those connections are tenuous at best.
Also, while I'm of a similar "I don't care" with regards to the fact that this game is sexist, it would be nice if people would at least admit that it is sexist. Most Greco-Roman mythology is pretty damn sexist! It was written by men, so that fact shouldn't really surprise anyone. Once people can admit that though, they can at least have a conversation about it. We're still stuck at the "it's not sexist!" part, and that really kills any possibility of actually talking about it.
Knux-Future
Banned
the fuck?
Yeah because this rape.
Totally the same.
Rape and Murder are fucking obviously bad. Thus games like RapePlay aren't fucking accepted.
but getting into a tissy over boobs because you don't find them appealing and then making it seem like it is the worst thing is the world is fucking stupid.
One is obviously not appropriate. The other is up for discussion and is silly because it basically boils down to "dem tits are too big".
The sexy poses, the tit touching..are fine examples and as such are better examples of why it could potentially be harmful. But many haven't gotten past the big sorceress tits.
IHaveCandy
Banned
I don't think people are trying to say the game isnt sexually charged in spots. I've only contended that the characters are not disrespectful, for example.
The Wizard
Member
It isn't necessarily. Some people will find it sexy, some will think it is sexist and others simply won't care. But the argument that the game is not intended to be in any way sexual seems weak.
ochaworldorder
Banned
George Kamitani has been drawing eroticized stuff for some time. That in of itself shouldn't be a problem if we are really going to discuss sexual themes in games with a level head. For me it's a matter of whether people can separate out eroticism from being some kind of attack on a gender.
I think the art is sexually charged and it's clearly Kamitani's take on already-sexualized representative images in Western fantasy art. I don't think this is a bad thing because the Sorceress or any other character doesn't read as being singled out as a "real life ideal," she reads as a specific trope or archetype existing in the language of the art traditions represented in the game.
Knux-Future
Banned
Yeah that picture of the nun is obviously attempting to be titillating.
That much is pretty obvious..to me at least.
The thing is tho...is that wrong?
That much is pretty obvious..to me at least.
The thing is tho...is that wrong?
Definitely. Things we can expect in Vanillaware games:
Sexy Women, sexy food, crazy proportions and crazy portions.
If you look straight at the picture, the first thing you see is the chastity belt. The camera is positioned perfectly to get a clear shot of her crotch.
The first thing I noticed was the boobs /nothelping
I don't think people are saying it is not sexually charged but that does not instantly make it juvenile and worthless. People get defensive when things they enjoyed are called harmful and twisted when they are fairly harmless in the game world. Will polygon and other sites remark on the sexism present in Grand theft auto 5 when it releases because their ads literally have a bust blond girl in a bikini sucking on a lollipop. I think they will give GTAV a 10/10 and say greatest thing ever without touching on the women and their meanings. I would not care honestly if they applied this much scrutiny evenly but being a niche title this is the perfect target.
What exactly are you are advocating? You are bringing up censorship and slippery slopes, but what is it that is leading to them? What is it you want to change? We're explicitly talking about people posting reviews, posting in comment threads, etc. What's wrong with that.
Everyone is free to publish any art that they want. Anyone is free to make criticism like "I feel that is gross and pandering."
If anything you seem to be advocating that critical responses should be silenced for some reason?
straight up with the beast head. the damn thing is huge
Final Fantasy protagonists?
Northeastmonk
Gold Member
I think I drooled a little over that. What a perverted thing for me to say.
So it's not sexually-charged in the open-legged image, but is in other places? Where, for example?
Funchameleon
Banned
Well, the actually meaningful connections are tenuous, but that's definitely a Mickey Mouse so all allegations of gross objectification are void.
I'm taking your argument to its logical extreme to illustrate that the logic doesn't play into a sane argument. Your argument is that "well nobody can know what's appropriate so we can't do/say anything about appropriateness!" Except that we can. We did, in fact, and we implanted it so deeply into your subconscious, that rape and murder are bad, that the very mentioning of these as appropriate behavior caused a revulsion response.
See, that kind of thing can happen with media too, but you have to be willing to admit that there's also a deeply-rooted psyche that promotes women as sexualized objects and that social psychology says that "it's ok" for women to be promoted in such a fashion. Men are often weirded out by the male extreme of this objectification, oftentimes via stuff like bishounen anime, where the males are proportioned not according to male fantasies but according to female fantasies. That look is quite a bit different and while it's problematic all on its own, it's nowhere near as ubiquitous as the stuff we're seeing with regards to female objectification.
I'm not sure about you [or others], but the first thing I see is that shimmering bag of gold/jewels she's carrying. Second is the demon dog feasting on her leg. Third, I guess, is that weird contraption strapped around her crotch area. It's definitely not the first thing I see, though, I guess it varies from person-to-person.
If you look straight at the picture, the first thing you see is the chastity belt. The camera is positioned perfectly to get a clear shot of her crotch.
I will admit that the graphics are sexually-charged, as so many people put it, but that applies to both the female and male characters in the game. It seems as though many are focusing on the female aspect of it, likely considering how often females are usually portrayed in games.
People that have an issue with it have to keep in-mind that this is how George Kamitani illustrates his ideas. He's been like this since Odin's Sphere/Muramasa. Does no one remember Velvet and her thigh-highs with bare midriff, Kongiku and her heaving bosoms, or that infamous illustration of Momohime being "restricted" by a giant octopus?. Granted these were more "niche" titles so that might be why it didn't get the negative attention that Dragon's Crown is receiving. or maybe simply people's perceptions have changed?
Either way, you're free to feel as you like towards Dragon's Crown. I personally love the art-style, and no, not because of the "breasts". It's because it's visually unique and each character seems to have so much life and expression crafted into them. Even the heavily-armored characters, such as the Fighter, has every piece of his armor clang together as he walks, it really makes the whole package come alive.
I wish people would just accept that it's the creative art-style used for the game, and leave it at that. It's not that George Kamitani actively searched for ways to make every female character as sexual as possible. He created them all like that, as evidenced by the shirtless [and extremely muscular] males present through the game. Just take a look at the Dwarf. Every muscle of him pulsates with each step.
It's kind of depressing to see all of the negativity surrounding Dragon's Crown, honestly. It's not often that you get original, unique artistic games, and when one finally comes out, everyone focuses on one simple aspect [the women and what they're wearing] and overlook everything else.
djplaeskool
Member
Seems we're arguing unrelated points.
Yeah, the meaningful connections being made don't really prove anything beyond the fact that most artists steal from other artists. Which is fine and true and is whatever. Though stealing from artists who sexualize characters doesn't make those connections less problematic. C'est la vie.
devotedgmr17
Banned
I think the real question here is that, while the characters are undoubtedly sexualized and/or sexually charged, does that inherently mean that they're objectified?
They clearly have strength and agency, so this isn't even about the role of the characters in the game. This is just about their appearance. Can someone's appearance alone mean that they're to be taken as an object? What message does that send to people?
They clearly have strength and agency, so this isn't even about the role of the characters in the game. This is just about their appearance. Can someone's appearance alone mean that they're to be taken as an object? What message does that send to people?
IHaveCandy
Banned
Since you are so against the art style what is your take on the Breath of Fire women. Going by your avatar you are fond of them. I would argue some of them fall in line with what you are arguing against.
Spirit of Jazz
Banned
So this basically comes down to your own insecurity? "Unapologetic adolescent fantasy" seems like a justifiable way of describing the art style in the game and the works that its derived from. Just because you appreciate it whilst it's highly off-putting for another person doesn't make you worse than them. I mean if a review criticised Saint's Row because they thought it was stupid I wouldn't start worrying about how they think I'm an idiot because I enjoy that type of comedy.
This whole thread serves only to highlight sexism in the gaming community not due to the actual content which can be argued either way, but because people dismiss the views of someone who thinks different from themselves to the extent that they'll argue another female reviewer is more intelligent because her perception falls in line with their own views. Danielle felt alienated by the games art-style, that affected her enjoyment of the game and she'd be a terrible reviewer to flat out ignore that because honestly relaying her experience of the game is her job. It doesn't make her review any less valid than any other and I think it would be worth highlighting that the graphics weren't her only issues with the game.
It's such a simple thing, anybody reading the review can see if they carry the same grievances towards the art as Danielle from the screen shots of the game that's all it takes to work out if that criticism is going to be relevant to you. It doesn't deserve a hundred page thread claiming the review's invalid/stupid/feminist propaganda because the reviewer had a poor experience with that element of the game.
chrono01 makes some good points. I think you can appreciate the art style while also acknowledging some of the issues that people bring up re: depictions of women being "eye-rolling" as someone said above. I am still curious to find examples of male cutscenes along the lines of the cutscenes of women posted above. Saying men are "equally-sexualized" because the Dwarf doesn't wear a shirt doesn't really make a lot of sense.
IHaveCandy: that seems to contradict some of the things you were saying earlier about depictions of women with large breasts. Also, "more sexy" is different than "sexually-charged," right? Otherwise the mere fact of having cleavage would mean anything you do is sexually-charged.
IHaveCandy: that seems to contradict some of the things you were saying earlier about depictions of women with large breasts. Also, "more sexy" is different than "sexually-charged," right? Otherwise the mere fact of having cleavage would mean anything you do is sexually-charged.
Knux-Future
Banned
If that's how I am coming off then I appologize as that isn't my intent.
I just get really tired of the passive aggressive nature of many to insult others in an attempt to make themselves superior.
You are free to not like anything and even criticize it but it's when you start throwing out the sexist and objectifying words is where I get uneasy. Those aren't just..I think this looks gross. That is now I think this is sexist garbage. Liking anything that is ist, means that you too are a sexist or whatever...which isn't fair to be labeled something that strongly just because you don't feel as strongly as them. Many people have said that they didn't like it because it looks gross, it is embarrassing or whatever. I think it's silly or don't agree but fine but just don't insult those who do like it on your way out. "I don't like this because it is sexist but it's okay that you like it.. but it is sexist" is a comment that feels of you want that person to not like it or feel bad about liking it to me. Could be reaching.
and in the end, I tend to come off super strong in these threads because I think the targets have been awful. I wasn't apart of the Tomb Raider stuff because..well I kinda agreed. But also these games aren't going to change the industry but also they aren't the industry. They are niche games that aren't going to hurt anyone and for the most part it can be explained. and I also just think it is a witchhunt at this point instead of actively trying to change things for the better. I am black. There are very few great black characters in games. But that's probably due to people begin scared of offending anyone so they dont even try. We will get to that point soon because even female characters that are strong, they get labled as Dudes with Boobs...so fuck. I think change happens from positive promotion instead of all this negativity.
So I guess it comes back to that. It gets depressing around here that everyone is so negative about everything lol.
But in short (lol), I don't mind criticism as long as it doesn't end in an perhaps unintended insult. People need to quit throwing around words like sexist or objectifying women. That paints a much broader picture than "I think this looks like shit" sure someone can get mad over having their taste questioned but that's better than having your entire character questioned. I don't like them but I also hated when fans of those Atellier games basically get called pedos...like wtf. it just reminds me too much of school in which if you liked something you were gay or not grown up.
I thought we were past that.
ochaworldorder
Banned
Not too go too OT since like Dragon's Crown has no (afaik) major character writing to discuss here, but while I get what you're saying that seems to come more from the "lol Japan" strain of thinking (also annoying in its own right) and typically happens pre-release, when we mostly have the character designs and not the story to go on.
I can't really think of a currently released FF where a male protagonist is outright dismissed the way I see people do with female characters. I mean, most people dislike Vaan as a person AND for his weird vest but I don't see the "oh boob armor, no buy!" type dismissal of all character discussion that I feel goes on due to the physical depiction of female characters.
No, it's as much about their personality and the warping of reality to fit an objectifying aesthetic. The character animations are where a lot of this personality comes from and good grief is it ever problematic there (again, gravity-defying breasts seem to be very popular these days - I could bring in some pictures of Skyrim mods to make comparisons of how whacky this is if you're interested; though it gets creepy really quickly).
What exactly does this have to do with anything?
djplaeskool
Member
Oh god, the Skyrim mods...
ReturnOfTheRAT
Member
If you look straight at the picture, the first thing you see is the chastity belt. The camera is positioned perfectly to get a clear shot of her crotch.
I am not you.
Ditto. I would have never even purchased this game had I not heard the "Ban this sick filth!" outcry from Kotaku and the like. Their bitching and moaning essentially forced me to pre-order it as a supporter of artistic expression. Thank God the game didn't suck.
Let me rephrase it as the line of sight matches directly with her crotch. Now the colors might pull your attention elsewhere but the positioning of the camera emphasizes the crotch area of her body.
Knux-Future
Banned
Rape is bad because you are forcabally taking somethign from someone.
Murder is bad because you are taking someone's life (although thats cool in gaming lol)
This isn't over time learning this but rather because no fucking shit it's bad.
A game in which EVERYTHING is sexualized (whatever) is bad because?????
It's not as easy to define as problematic because unlike the previous two because it's up to each person. If someone takes this game as sign of any realism or self worth then they have bigger issues.
Btw my initial post was just stating that the whole idea behind the designs was to be extreme versions of D&D tropes....which he fucking did.
but it simply comes down to if you think sexualizing stuff is bad. I don't. You do.
fuck
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