Imperialist pls go
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Dubai: woman sentenced to 1 y 4 mos for reporting rape (update: pardoned)
- Thread starter Polari
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Imperialist pls go
RustyNails
Member
A shining beacon of western tolerance.
Pretty sure we can't interfere until they independently develop warp drive.
Islamic Laws need to go through a modernization process for sure. These laws are centuries old and that's why they are so backwards. Every other major religion has went through this process and now it's Islam's turn.
However, that might cause things to go against the Qur'an and that's not going to bode well for a lot of Muslims so I don't know.
However, that might cause things to go against the Qur'an and that's not going to bode well for a lot of Muslims so I don't know.
Fox Mulder
Member
this is why you don't bother going to these places.
The middle east, since the mongols, has been a culture built on submission to laws. Unless they get their own reformation and enlightenment period I can't imagine that changing any time soon.
grap3fruitman
Banned
What's next? Stabbing murder victim found with knife still lodged in carcass, charged with possession of a deadly weapon and intent to harm? What a backwards civilization.
Evolution_1ne
Banned
you couldn't pay me to visit Dubai
But how are they going to get their own reformation and enlightenment period, when it's specifically against their religion?
Reading the article, it really just comes down to a really shitty law to prove rape had occurred. The four males thing. It's a weird situation there because that's quite a lot of evidence but if the offender is found guilty of rape it's automatically a death sentence. Needless to say, a lot of work on laws needs to be done.
That is precisely my point. That's why groups like the Islamic people, Jainists, and many natural Taoists are still so drilled into their ways. They have different customs. But it wasn't always like that for the Islamic people. The authoritarian Islamic state started moreso with the Golden Horde. The mongols, as I said. They just need the space to branch out from those kinds of people in different states. That's precisely what Egypt just overthrew so there may be hope there.
Sarcastico
Member
Was she raped by one of her colleagues?
No, three of them. And because of their current laws there is a prereq to prove it was non-consentual and it ended up being taken as consentual and because she was not married to them she was arrested. Rape is a capital crime in their civilization but wow do they really screw up how evidence works for these cases.
Admiral Bone to Pick
Banned
Or here's an idea: Don't have Islamic laws.
gutter_trash
Banned
boycott theocracies
Sarcastico
Member
I wouldn't be surprised if victim blaming was involved. Something along the lines of "She put herself in this position, so she's partly responsible for the outcome" and therefore no one bothered with the rape charges.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cpXg4tWYsLk
Emirati official (yeah, not some regular guy) beats Indian man who hit his SUV after cutting into the lane (Indian guy's fault). Indian man didn't defend himself. Entire incident gets caught on film.
The great thing is the guy who filmed the exchange was arrested and can face penalties worse than the man who committed the assault. Sounds familiar, doesn't it? Guy who attacked can face 1 year in Jail or pay a fine of 10,000 UAE Dirhams (around 2722 USD). The guy who filmed the incident can face up to 2 years in jail or 20,000 UAE dirhams for "breaching privacy and defamation".
The latest coming out of this story is that the video footage is inadmissable in court because it was filmed without consent.
Fuck this shitty town.
I have been living in the UAE for over 2 decades and I feel very sorry for this lady and I hope her situation turns around very very soon. Very sad and completely unfair. However a lot of the posts here make Dubai look far, far, far worse than it really is. It is disappointing to see posts about wanting the place to go kaput under the sands or whatever. To these posters don't forget there are people living all over these cities and our livelihood counts on it. Why not wish for a change of policy instead of being such an extremist like the supposed religious laws your are proudly pointing your finger at?
Second what is *just* as backwards as this decision by the Dubai courts are the opinions a lot of you have on Islam. As a Muslim for a couple of decades this is nothing like the Islam I have lived with in peace and harmony. Islamic law is nowhere near as unfair as the decision granted to this woman. For your information an Islamic judge is not allowed to pass down a guilty verdict on someone when he has no sufficient proof, as is the case with this where the Dubai law seemingly jumped into conclusions (like MOST of you did on this thread here with your lack of knowledge about Islam I must say to be honest - more on that below).
Just because there are assholes out there who live in a system that supports Sharia law does not mean their decisions reflect it. The amount of ignorance for Islam here (including the one by the mod shockingly!!) is astounding. It is a shame most Muslims don't reflect the values that Islam teach us. Such people are Muslim by name, and not practice. Blame these people, do not blame the religion. Most of you here have shown no understanding in Islam, and I can't blame you because many of my fellow Muslims continue to taint the reputation of the religion on a daily basis. Ironically it is also ignorance from many of us Muslims that led to the image of Islam being so tainted as it is today.
To those of you who have the time one day, I highly encourage you to learn about Islam not from the people but from the essences - the holy Quran and the authentic Hadiths and I PROMISE you that you would be shocked at how different Islam is than you really think. I hope my post made a decent contribution to the thread, and Allah knows best.
God bless you all. Avoid being ignorant about things in life. I wish many of us Muslims could too. Peace...
Second what is *just* as backwards as this decision by the Dubai courts are the opinions a lot of you have on Islam. As a Muslim for a couple of decades this is nothing like the Islam I have lived with in peace and harmony. Islamic law is nowhere near as unfair as the decision granted to this woman. For your information an Islamic judge is not allowed to pass down a guilty verdict on someone when he has no sufficient proof, as is the case with this where the Dubai law seemingly jumped into conclusions (like MOST of you did on this thread here with your lack of knowledge about Islam I must say to be honest - more on that below).
Just because there are assholes out there who live in a system that supports Sharia law does not mean their decisions reflect it. The amount of ignorance for Islam here (including the one by the mod shockingly!!) is astounding. It is a shame most Muslims don't reflect the values that Islam teach us. Such people are Muslim by name, and not practice. Blame these people, do not blame the religion. Most of you here have shown no understanding in Islam, and I can't blame you because many of my fellow Muslims continue to taint the reputation of the religion on a daily basis. Ironically it is also ignorance from many of us Muslims that led to the image of Islam being so tainted as it is today.
To those of you who have the time one day, I highly encourage you to learn about Islam not from the people but from the essences - the holy Quran and the authentic Hadiths and I PROMISE you that you would be shocked at how different Islam is than you really think. I hope my post made a decent contribution to the thread, and Allah knows best.
God bless you all. Avoid being ignorant about things in life. I wish many of us Muslims could too. Peace...
In cases like this, you can never know. The only time I've seen Islamic people defend rape by victim blaming was when people were being immoral and defend it as punishment for being immoral. This goes along with the women tossing acid on the woman going out without a burqa but the covering of men and women is a very complicated matter which the west and the middle east struggle with often. Their sense of punishment or defying the honor of men and women is steeped in their authoritarian Islam history which I touched on in earlier posts and something things like the Egyptian coup was there to prevent. Beyond that, things of a sexual nature is often very touchy between a lot of people in that culture and how it is taken really depends very much on the country. This is not a uniform thing at all throughout the Islamic nation.
You have 1 sentence that laments about the woman who has faced perhaps the cruellest injustice possible, and 4.5 paragraphs defending the culture in which that injustice is made possible.
I know Islam is awesome and everything, peace be upon you, all that cool stuff, but that doesn't erase the pattern of Islamic cultures systemic issues with women.
MisterNegative
Banned
Werid, seeing as the authorities in Dubai turn a blind eye to it's massive prostitute ring.
Know of a few businessmen who have claimed that they've walked into bars and been offered sex.
Know of a few businessmen who have claimed that they've walked into bars and been offered sex.
UAE is honestly very lax on many things. The main issue here is the prereq for rape claims in the country (and by extension, the punishment for rape which made the proof needed more hefty). Corruption exists in all places.
Oh my goodness.
MistakenMobius
Member
Could you sum up what it's mean?
Feel free to point to this shocking ignorance.
Or shall I just assume that, like that other dude, you misread?
thank you for contacting us. our embassy in Abu Dhabi is in charge of posting the relevant information regarding customs and rules in relation to problems the embassy has seen tourists encounter in UAE. It's always a challenge covering all the specific areas and when issues arise one can see certain areas could have been brought to more attention. The phrasing must always be chosen very carefully in accordance with how the host nation understands our message.
We will pass your message on to our embassy blah blah blah...
SpectreFire
Member
I really don't understand why people would ever want to go there for fun. That place seems like such a massive shithole.
I'm pretty sure at the point the individual won't really give a damn, being a murder victim and all.
thesuperfunk
Member
What a fucking backwards country - this kind of shit seriously stinks.
Does anyone really do that? Seems the only reasons people go to Dubai is for work related reasons.
they can build as many indoor ski resorts as they want, but Dubai will never be a true tourist destination when people have to worry about their basic human rights being shit on
It's tourist gimmick revolves around it trying to make unique structural feats (indoor skiing, undersea hotel, world's largest tower, experimental structures, that little-earth-esque series of islands, etc) to garner attention. The sad thing is you can tell just how much they focus on it in those areas if you look at the city. Outside of those areas the cities jumps from green to brown in many places. It has it's unique sights, definitely, but I'd still recommend better places. The "Amazing Dubai" is apparently still under construction.
How did the judge came to that conclusion? She didn't had sex, she was raped. There was no consent. They don't know the difference?
Damn, feel so bad for the woman, trapped, passport seized and can't go nowhere. I hope Norway will still try to help her, even though they don't have a extradition treaty.
Damn, feel so bad for the woman, trapped, passport seized and can't go nowhere. I hope Norway will still try to help her, even though they don't have a extradition treaty.
In their country claims of no consent must be confirmed with witnesses, otherwise it's considered consent. That's what the issue lies on her case. She couldn't prove she was raped but she stood by the claim that intercourse happened so it was taken as consentual and ended up like she was telling on herself for a completely different crime. That's where the injustice lies.
Further, you could argue the pain of rape claims needing witnesses lies with how severe the punishment is, which is automatic death sentence. It's a mess and really needs to be sorted out better.
I don't believe in your god, in fact I believe in no god as such. The man made laws that are concerned with the idea of morality have all originated from religion, regardless of which one it is.
I like how people come here and have the gall to say, "oh no they aren't real muslims". Well it may surprise people like these to know that the individual they are alienating as "muslim just by name" may feel exactly the same way about their judges.
And regardless of how islam is "supposed" to function, the people in power, who have laid the law of the land have a different interpretation of it.
At least the normal human made laws change over time as established precedents encounter unprecedented occurrences. Religious ones... that's another story.
With all the discussion about Islam and its opinion of women going on it must be shocking to many to hear the staggering numbers of Islamic converts and the fact that more than half are white and 75% of them women. That could reflect our understanding of the culture and possibly an issue in our culture, depending on how you perceive it.
While I can't say "well you can remove the religion and still have the honor and cultural standards that caused this", the person is just trying to defend his religion from being misrepresented as a whole. This situation has nothing to do with shariah law but rather respect being built up on by the culture influenced by the religion and the man made abuse of those views in some ill-conceived idea of "fairness".
While I understand where you're coming from and a lot of the atrocities in the Arab world are due to their culture from before-Islam, there are enough verses in Quran to disprove your assertion that it's not a backwards religion, because it is, just like every other religion. Quran says that female heirs get half the inheritance of male heirs, legally 2 female witnesses = 1 male witness, thievery is punished by amputation, husbands are permitted to beat their wives (but only lightly, see it's a religion of peace!!!).
Many "moderate" Muslims turn a blind eye to these verses and simply ignore them, because the alternative is either to support these arguments and be seen as a backwards, ignorant, radicalized Muslim, or to give up their religion, which is too scary for them.
I'm not going to speak for Fady to any degree but I will say that this one is a bit debated. Here is the whole discussion on the matter.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Status_of_women's_testimony_in_Islam
Edit: Thanks for the response. Fady's move. I've only read Mecca Suras so I can't speak much on this topic. However, the idea of one man or two women can be taken as not "worth" but just an extention of the religion's use of differing social roles between men and women. Men are to be the workers and protectors for the family in that culture so their status for specific things that deal with that (in this case, financial documents) would be higher for that culture and vice versa for specific areas. Of course, this kind of thinking clashes heavily with the west who was influenced by the Enlightenment to value individualism and eventually positive liberty.
Islam's view on women clashes with ours in by far the most interesting of ways because in many cases they feel the other backward and condescending to women. The west values freedom while the middle east values honor.
Well, the actual verse says for financial documents, you either need two men, or one man and two women. It takes some very creative interpretation to see this as not what it is, which is 1 man = 2 women.
So I'll modify my original statement, that in some cases in Quran one male witness is equal to 2 women witnesses. That's still extremely misogynist, and does not take away from the main idea of my post.
Hoya Destroyer
Member
If foreign women continue to go to Dubai, I hope they at least become aware of what they should do if they find themselves in the same situation as these women. Basically, report nothing to the authorities there and GTFO ASAP.
sleeping_dragon
Banned
Y'all should convert to Buddhism! It's the best religion ever. One cannot kill, eat meat, drink alcohol and no sex means world peace wil be achievable .
Not true Ijtihad exists and is possible.
The issue is despotic regimes run by autocrats in Saudi, Egypt and Emirates and gulf states who use their money to spread wahhabism. These places are a real life example of loonies running the asylum.
Yes it's is a reflection of Western culture that promotes the objectification of women. Magazines and television telling women how to dress, why they need to diet, what a real woman looks like etc. Then you end up with women dealing with bulimia and developing various eating disorders, depression and women resorting to surgery in order to meet some ill-conceived notion of what makes a woman attractive and normal.
My wife is a convert to Islam like me...and she was really attracted to the concept of modesty and not having to conform to peer-pressure, magazines and televisions standards for how she should be in appearance...by just putting on a hijab she was empowered to never have to worry about her hair for example. People are like hair worries? Not realising that the hair industry is worth billions of dollars and woman are constantly bombarded by advertising telling them what length, style, texture and colour their hair need to be with slogan like "Because you're worth it".
My wife spent her teenage years self-harming, she had anxiety and depression and was just not in a good place wither self-esteem because of these external pressures placed on her. Not sure how many people actually realise the amount of pressure and strain there is on girls and woman...it is very burdensome.
Anyways...
Honestly this is just as dumb as telling someone not to visit Chicago because of the high crime rate or telling a black person not to visit the US because of the Travyvon case. If I posted every kidnapping, racial attack, murder, rape, false imprisonment, shooting, and every other horrible thing that happens here every day, it would probably overflow the message board. I just came back from Dubai a few weeks ago and it's full of European tourists, men, women, and children. No one is harassed or bothered. I saw white girls wearing skimpy shorts and skirts walking besides local girls in full niqabs all the time. The streets were super safe even at night as people(including groups of girls) were just casually walking around and socializing at late hours of the night. In fact the safety in Dubai was the one thing that I loved about the place the most.
You people need to get out of your little bubble and travel the world to see what's actually out there instead of basing your world view off of a few unfortunate cases like these.
Devolution
Member
Really not a fan of this kind of question. And this isn't the only time it's asked this way.
Good post. This is a disgusting case and the laws need to change, but this is an extreme outlier case. Like you yourself said, there are injustices and atrocities all over, doesn't mean you paint the entire country black. It's just ignorance. The majority of people making such posts have probably never visited these nations to know any better.
I should add that I myself have been to Dubai several times and have the same opinion and experience you have.
On a side note, have other news agencies covered this? Seeing TheBlaze as a source scares me.
Even Bhuddists have violence in their history not much different from Christian history. We just don't hear about it in the west. Even now there are massacres happening in Myanmar being committed by mobs of monks. Violence is not isolated to any single religion or group of people, it is present everywhere regardless of the values that are stressed or taught.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-22356306
http://www.wnd.com/2013/06/now-its-buddhists-behaving-badly/
http://www.amazon.com/dp/3895005452/?tag=neogaf0e-20
You're being short-sighted. It doesn't matter how many happy tourists you saw, because everywhere has got both happy people and victims of crime. The problem is that if you raped in Dubai, apparently, the police will do everything they can to avoid helping you or catching the bad guys, including putting you in jail if you don't shut up. Basically, women are apparently not under the protection of the law in Dubai.
I actually don't understand why there aren't travel advisories or trade sanctions against Dubai. If companies are going to do business with Dubai, they are going to want to send their employees there, and if they are fair, they are going to have to send female employees.
They need to know the laws. Rape is defended through witnesses because it's considered such a capital crime and not through testing testimony.
If anything, I'd pair trying to get change with those laws to start providing pamphlets to men and women so they can understand legal differences between crimes from their country to the next.
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