Alex_Mexico
Member
I feel the same. Miyamoto is hilariously out of touch.
Splatoon making people a costumed to 3D movement, huh? Did that happen before or after Minecraft and GTAV sold 20 million and 35 million copies respectively?
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Eurogamer Miyamoto interview: Future of 3D Mario (Galaxy)
- Thread starter James Scott
- Start date
Splatoon making people a costumed to 3D movement, huh? Did that happen before or after Minecraft and GTAV sold 20 million and 35 million copies respectively?
Tatsumi Oga
Banned
Oh shit same here man. I remember when it was finally Ninty's time during that E3 and we all expected a proper 3D Mario game. The Direct live video started and after a while they showed a new Mario game, for a sec i thought this was going to be a new 3D Land for 3DS....but then i realized it was the new Mario for Wii U. I almost instantly got depressed to be honest.
We need a Mario where we can rotate the camera around him, where the world truly is 3D. Back to 64, sunshine and Galaxy basically. The good man has been saying this for a while now about a Galaxy game, we've yet to see one though.
Scientist Supreme!
Banned
Jesus Christ. It's like all "Nintendo is out of touch" comments in one. No self awareness at all.
Alex_Mexico
Member
I'm offended that Miyamoto makes it sound like Galaxy wasn't a mainstream runaway success. It sold close to 10 million, for chrissakes! Sure it wasn't the 30 million NSMBWii did but when a game sells 10 million it really was a game with a very very broad audience. Sure the ceiling is lower on 3D Marios but it's nothing to scoff at and I'm growing tired of the NSMB formula.
People have already come into the thread discussing their motion sickness in 3D games even if they were their personal GOTYs. It can range from person to person. I know some that can only play through 3rd person cameras but if the game only has 1st person mode they can't play it without feeling like throwing up.
It's a pretty common problem just one that doesn't get discussion but is why camera work is important to always rethink and make better to try to accommodate those who suffer from motion sickness.
I find it weird that he completely ignored Super Mario 3D World/Land in his comment; its goal was exactly that: being a middle ground between 3D and 2D Mario games. It was a huge step forward in accessibilty conpared to this: http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=o_0KjAGY1FY
I don't really what else they can do without dumbing down the gameplay too much. Would VR help with depth perception?
I don't really what else they can do without dumbing down the gameplay too much. Would VR help with depth perception?
Alex_Mexico
Member
His Splatoon comment sealed the deal. What about Skyward Sword's Fi having to remind you you're running out of batteries or hearts? Or the collectible shit where every session the game needs to remind you of the stuff you pick up?
I realize GAF isn't the world but Minecraft and GTAV are two of the biggest gaming successes in history and both are 3D games.
This is not talking about Galaxy selling 250k to a niche audience. Galaxy still sold numbers that make Zelda, Metal Gear Solid, every Final Fanta but VII, The Witcher and Mass Effect blush (to name a few big franchises that rarely, if ever, sell close to 10m).
Saying a new Earthbound would be a runaway success would be out of touch. Saying that Galaxy 3 would be one, is not out of touch.
FPSs still give me motion sickness. It's not like it's a problem that just goes away.
Alex_Mexico
Member
I know that. Sad part is Galaxy didn't even had a controllable camera 90% of the time. And the other 10% where you had some control over it it was never strictly needed to be moved.
I'd get more these Miyamoto comments if they came after Sunshine's 100% free camera. But not Galaxy's brilliant stationary one.
Alex_Mexico
Member
Holy shit. I've been arguing how Galaxy was a fucking success when I was thinking it sold "only" 8 million-ish. I had no idea it went all the way past 12.
That's a mainstream success with lots and lots of expanded audience buying and loving the crap out of it. It doesn't have to sell 30 million, Christ.
There was a person who brought up Galaxy giving them motion sickness. Even if it had a more stationary camera there were still issues to some in how the camera was used in places.
EDIT: Well, maybe I remembered wrong. But I imagine there are a few who still have issues. But motion sickness with cameras only now seems like a discussion because VR is coming without any self awareness that it has a problem for decades. Someone did bring up Epic Mickey though and that's a 3rd person game with an awful camera. Excessive motion blur, lack of depth perception, weird FoV, and much more details with cameras are often left unchecked regardless of free-roam or stationary that cause people issues. Severity is different form person to person from not being able to handle 3D games at all to just 1st person only.
akidnamededdy
Banned
Neither of those games are on Nintendo systems.
Green Mamba
Member
They'll finally realize the entire thing that prevents 3D Mario from being as accessible as 2D Mario is the third dimension, so the next 3D Mario will just be entirely 2D. They'll again be mystified why their 3D Mario fails to outpace NSMBWii from over five years ago, and go back to the drawing board to once again see how they can dumb it down.
I don't think that'll happen. I imagine they'll continue to refine 3D cameras to continue to reduce the problem as much as possible. Nintendo makes the best cameras in the business that you're often unaware of the camera at all.
Have you ever put a gamepad in the hand of like a 3 or 4 year old?
They have a really hard time with it, and I think that is sort of what he is getting at.
Nintendo's philosophy is to make games with broad appeal that anyone can play to some degree, and 3D platformers are very confusing for people that haven't played a lot of video games.
NES and SNES games are not, by virtue of the limitations of the technology.
You realize there were over 100 million Wii owners right? So 10-12 million is only 10% of those owners. That's not a mainstream success. Mario 64 selling 10 million when there were 20 million N64 owners, is a mainstream success, since half the owners bought it.
Games like Mario Kart Wii, Wii Sports, and NSMB Wii sold over 30 million, which is a much larger fraction of Wii owners, making them mainstream successes.
How dismissive of you, I had so much motion sickness from playing oblivion that I couldn't bear to play after the first city.
Hale-XF11
Member
Why is it nowadays that every time a Nintendo executive opens their mouths, all that comes out is some dumb excuse about why they can't do this or that or the other thing?
Funny thing is, the camera restrictions they've put in place in more recent Mario games often times made them more frustrating to play than say, SM64, where I was given more control and could therefore make better judgments about my movements in each environment.
Funny thing is, the camera restrictions they've put in place in more recent Mario games often times made them more frustrating to play than say, SM64, where I was given more control and could therefore make better judgments about my movements in each environment.
true. While Mario 64 is the GOAT 3D video game, Galaxy 2 was pretty much perfect when it came to difficulty. They should try to keep that balance going forward.
Even regarding 2D, I loved Super Luigi U because of how freaking challenging it was, even from the very start.
Super Mario 128 already exists:
yup. Mario 128 was a tech demo that turned into Pikmin
everyone should play Pikmin 3 btw
i've played it its good, its not the 64 sequel i wanted
. im ready to see the next Mario im feenin bros.Scientist Supreme!
Banned
Apparently Nintendo shouldn't think about you when making games.
by this metric, only, like 6 games ever made are mainstream successes
Yeah, but on the flip side looking at just numbers and not numbers compared to user base makes it seem like 3DL and 3DW weren't as successful as they were. So it goes both ways. For a Wii game, SMG is mildly successful. For a Wii U game, 3DW is mildly unsuccessful. And 3DL is plenty successful for a 3DS game.
The bottom line is Nintendo despite my love of the genre will need to be careful to not oversaturate their releases with 2D platformers, at least not in such close release date proximity as they were on Wii U in this current generation. As to 3D Mario games, I suspect the next Galaxy will have aspects of 3DW and Galaxy 1+2 incorporated into it. I doubt Nintendo will quickly return to their early 3D Mario emphasis on minimal platforming in favor of exploration. I could see Nintendo making a DK or other character 3D platformer in that vein, though, especially if they continue to utilize the 3DW engine going forward.
The Real Abed
Perma-Junior
Fuck. No.
Super Mario 3D World 2 at E3 2016 please! 3D World is the Mario game that keeps on giving. After you beat the final boss, you find out he;s not the final boss and have to play another world and beat him again. Then you unlock a secret world. And when you beat that secret world, another one opens up. Then after you finish that one you get one more world. Then when you get all the stars and stamps and flagpole tops you unlock yet one more world with another level of each type. And then you also get the satisfaction of beating every single level with all 5 characters.
Last night I finally got the last stars, stamps and flagpoles and unlocked Champion's Road. But before I even go into the level once I am going to finish every level with every character...
Feels so satisfying to 100% a world like this.
People who say 3D World is terrible make me sad because they obviously don't know how to have fun. And 3D World is a fuckload of fun. I'm having more enjoyment than I had with both Galaxy games, and I LOVED both of those to death. I don't care if Galaxy 3 comes along, but I want another 3D World. There's just so much more to do. Give it the Galaxy 2 treatment. It's obvious Nintendo's level designers are full of ideas.
Green Mamba
Member
3D World is already 3D Land 2.
I was pretty obviously joking, but 3D World had a worse camera than either Galaxy game near as I can remember. I don't think anything in Galaxy was as bad as this.
TwEE-N-Toast
Banned
I'd be ok with them sticking to 2D Mario for the most part, if they stop half assing them compared to the 3D games.
2D sells way more but it feels and looks like Nintendo is just phoning it in production value and level design wise.
I want a 2D mario as soon as the NX drops, and I want it to blow everybody's socks off.
2D sells way more but it feels and looks like Nintendo is just phoning it in production value and level design wise.
I want a 2D mario as soon as the NX drops, and I want it to blow everybody's socks off.
The Real Abed
Perma-Junior
Dude. You can control the camera. And that's not even the default view of that part of the level. (Those swinging parts are always straight on. Plus those swings are impossible to fuck up anyway as long as you time it right. You'll always swing right straight to your goal.) Seriously, this is grasping at straws. 3D World's camera is fine. It's limited to 45º angles and 30º tilts and is fine for the game it's in.
Green Mamba
Member
You can't control the camera in multiplayer, i.e. the mode the game is designed around.
But even outside of that, I meant the Star-1 example for the round, rotating platforms, of which the default camera angle does absolutely no favors. This is a better screenshot of the stuff I'm talking about.
Maybe you're too young to have experienced this, but when the NES came out everyone was playing it. You and your dad would take turns playing Mario Bros, your uncle would come over to help you find a dungeon in Zelda, and then your mom and dad battled in Dr. Mario after you went to bed. It is a blessing and a curse that Nintendo are familiar with the potential that gaming has to be the most appealing and exciting thing on your TV. My own opinion is that they are on the right path and that the next time they have a mainstream hit they will take the teen core with them.
The Real Abed
Perma-Junior
Once again, I've never had that angle in that location by default. And that's a shot of a single-player game.
However I have confirmed that that's the angle it uses in multiplayer from an episode of GameGrumps. So my apologies for doubting. Still, I don't think it's a big deal. It's still 45º and gives you a view of what's coming. Arin didn't have any problems with that part at all. (Danny however was being Danny and constantly falling to his death.)
I love the Grumps play through of 3D World so much, it's the main reason I NEED a sequel. It was Grumps at their most best ever. Still disappointed they never got all the stars, stamps and flagpoles like they promised they would. I really wanted to see an hour and a half long episode of Arin gradually becoming more frustrated at Champion's Road and the marathon level.
I think this has already been posted.. but i'm not sure :
Tezuka: We will continue to make 3D and 2D Mario games, but I want to make one that even exceeds New Super Mario Bros.
Got a plan? Tezuka: I cant say anything concrete yet, but you may see it within a few years.
Tezuka: I also kind of want to seriously work on something other than Mario.
Tezuka: We will continue to make 3D and 2D Mario games, but I want to make one that even exceeds New Super Mario Bros.
Got a plan? Tezuka: I cant say anything concrete yet, but you may see it within a few years.
Tezuka: I also kind of want to seriously work on something other than Mario.
Incidentally the isometric-like view of 3D World makes jumps much harder than Galaxy or 64 ever did.
Alex_Mexico
Member
The fuck are you talking about? Do you know how rare are console games that sell over 10 million units? These days unless it's a GTA year or an unexpected game like Minecraft comes out no game gets to 10 million+ in any given year if you're not CoD or FIFA.
10 million makes SMG a mainstream success by any metric. Will you argue Ocarina of Time wasn't a mainstream success because it "only" sold around 7 million?
Also N64 sold 35 million consoles. Not even the GC sold only 20 million, so not "half" of owners got SM64.
Huh... I think he means the way you handle the camera, do you use a gyroscope control on Minecraft or GTA5?
Dreamwriter
Member
Agreed, I found Galaxy 1 to be so easy it was completely boring, I couldn't finish it because it became just work to play through it. I understand it got a lot better once you finish the game, but it was too boring to reach that point. Now Mario Sunshine, THAT game had a very fun level of difficulty for me.
3D world isnt bad, it was actually pretty fun and I agree that all those extra levels were a really cool addition, that being said the game overall was pretty unmemorable and levels were easily forgettable, nothing sticks with you like 64 or galaxy 2, exploration makes a bigger impact I tend to find.
Perhaps the matter is that the game he wants to make is for a wider audience and isn't concerned about sales stastistics. ¯\_(ツ
_/¯Perhaps the matter is that the game he wants to make is for a wider audience and isn't concerned about sales stastistics. ¯\_(ツ
Or maybe, even more likely the standard by which they judge main Mario games are higher than your usual 3rd party game...
I'm pretty sure if the next Battlefront sells less than the usual Battlefield despite the much higher cost (because of the license) EA will probably not be happy even if they make their money back.
3D Mario usually doesn't grow the audience which is the concern people at Nintendo have.
The Real Abed
Perma-Junior
There's plenty of memorable levels in it. A lot of them are really colorful too. And the game did a lot more gimmicks than the Galaxy games did. Though both had a lot of unique level design.
I just want more. More 3D World. I love it so much. Plus being able to play as one of 5 characters is so much better than just Mario and Luigi. I hope when Galaxy 3 does come out it at least lets you play as Toad, Peach and Rosalina at least as a post game bonus. I'm spoiled. And NSMBNX had better let player one play as someone other than Mario for fucks sake. Put all 5 in that game too. The 5 of the need to be playable in every Mario game from now on. No exceptions.
Also I really want to rewatch the Grumps play through again. They're currently playing through Galaxy but since it's only one player it's Arin. Danny put down his starbits collector hours ago. I hope they jump right into Galaxy 2 when they finish.
Agent Unknown
Member
UGH. I am so sick of hearing him repeat this tiresome, apologetic sounding talking point about challenge and accessibility year after year in every interview regarding canon Mario titles. Both the 2D and 3D games are always going to have a degree of challenge here and there which simply won't be palatable to everyone. I'm not saying they shouldn't be reached out to, but those types of players can only be catered to a certain point before overall quality and replay value begin to be in danger of being compromised. And the bit about Mario 64's camera after the leaps in level perspectives made by both SMG and 3DL/W many years after the fact just seems tone deaf and out of date.
The Mario series have always been sterling examples of levels guiding and subtly teaching the player what they need to be ready for and both the 2D and 3D games now have the super guide/super item system for those who get frustrated. I don't know what else they can do to get middling detractors or if the 3D games can ever reach the sales of the 2D series, but more power to them if they can find a way.
3D Land and 3D World both already accomplished this though, level design and also (in 3DW's case) multiplayer wise. Several friends and family members of mine who have all loved Mario games since childhood and who are normally intimidated by the 3D titles all immediately clicked with 3DW's control and design precisely because the game emulates SMB's core level philosophy so brilliantly. So it's not like they haven't made serious progress somewhere. I'd also like to know if Koizumi, Hayashida and the rest of EAD Tokyo themselves agree with Miyamoto's words here.
Super Mario 128 already exists:
Anyone asking for Mario 128 is either trolling or havent been paying attention for about over decade at this point.
As was pointed out, the core idea of controlling multiple Mario's morphed into Pikmin, but Nintendo also has the Mario vs DK series for Lemmings like controls.
The other core idea of walking of spheres has already been seen, twice, in the Galaxy series.
If you are really suggesting that Nintendo release tech demos, Nintendo released more of their Wii U demos this time as Game and Wario and it wasnt well recieved.
Your logic is very, very awkward. Also, mario64 was a launch title on a system that had the bloody Sahara for a library for nearly a year. I would also be willing to bet you blockbuster video was quite a large portion of sales.
Eolz
Member
Unless you are an indie doing it for the fun, when you're making a video game, you have to think about your different audiences and how you can cater to them to make more sales. You can do your best to make an audience respond appropriately. Of course, you can't be sure of anything, but that's part of the job, you have to make your game sell at the end of the day (especially Mario in this case, it's not a Tingle RPG made with the money that said Mario is supposed to bring).