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[cosmicblizzard]

Meh.

I think a character's value lies much beyond how 'badass' he/she looks, so i am having some trouble agreeing.

Besides, we already have a pretty balanced party.

Sazh = Clown (hidden badass, and resident old person)
Snow = Eternally optimistic idealist (stupid shounen hero)
Fang = Conflicted badass (dat ASS)
Hope = Young Kid/Angst machine (definitely getting a lesson on why revenge is bad)
Vanille = Fun loving happy chick with mysterious/dark past
Lightning = Leading badass (complete with emotion suppression and lame backstory, guaranteed to have issues with Snow and Fang)

Outside of Lightning, none of those are really negatives.

 

[lorddarkflare]

Lightning and Fang are fucking awesome for bucking the trend of weak-willed heroines in FF. Hell, we even have one as the main character! It's like S-E is trying to be as progressive as back in FFVI!

Yeah i know.

Upon compiling my rather weak list, i realized how good the cast actually is (Lightning's stupid art aside)

 

[VindicatorZ]

I don't see why there can't be maybe 8 playable characters this time around. I was always dissapointed with only 6 in FF12.

 

[lorddarkflare]

I don't see why there can't be maybe 8 playable characters this time around. I was always dissapointed with only 6 in FF12.

8 can be a crowd.

Besides, i personally believe that the overall party should not be greater than twice the size of the battle party.

Outside of Lightning, none of those are really negatives.

Err, i personally hate shounen-like heroes (Lloyd from ToS being the only exception) as well,but other than that, the cast is pretty sound.

It would be much better if Vanille and Lightning kindly jumped off a cliff.

 

[TheChillyAcademic]

Yeah i know.

Upon compiling my rather weak list, i realized how good the cast actually is (Lightning's stupid art aside)

Eh, she works better as a fighter then Serah.

 

[i_am_ben]

I'm really starting to hate that picture of Lightning with her limp wrist. It looks like her arm has no bones.

 

[lorddarkflare]

Eh, she works better as a fighter then Serah.

She looks better than Serah period.

I may may not like her, but i do not think that she truly is bad.

Serah on the other hand...

 

[HK-47]

Lightning and Fang are fucking awesome for bucking the trend of weak-willed heroines in FF. Hell, we even have one as the main character! It's like S-E is trying to be as progressive as back in FFVI!

Ashe is weak willed?

Spoiler

Danger danger!

But seriously, I'd like to know why she is weak willed in your eyes.

 

[cosmicblizzard]

Err, i personally hate shounen-like heroes (Lloyd from ToS being the only exception) as well,but other than that, the cast is pretty sound.

It would be much better if Vanille and Lightning kindly jumped off a cliff.

Eh, I think gloomy universes like these need optimistic shonen heroes. I'd take one over an anti-hero bitch like Lightning, but that's just me.

 

[Shadowlink]

I don't think there's been any characters you can completely bypass. FFXII has guest characters at certain points, that's it.

Yeah I had a feeling they didn't do extra characters in the PS2 titles.

I guess there could be another character that they haven't shown yet.

 

[TheChillyAcademic]

Eh, I think gloomy universes like these need optimistic shonen heroes. I'd take them over an anti-hero bitch like Lightning, but that's just me.

I'll take an anti hero bitch over a whiney emo or hell, an anti hero, guy any fucking day.

 

[cosmicblizzard]

I'll take an anti hero bitch over a whiney emo or hell, an anti hero, guy any fucking day.

As would I, but genuinely happy optimistic people are just more pleasant to play as unless they won't shut up about. I'm not expecting Snow to say "we gotta save the world and we can totally do it cause we're awesome" every 3 seconds.

 

[ZephyrFate]

I fucking love Lightning. I don't see what the problem is with an emotionless female anti-hero. That's kind of badass in comparison to the uppity stupid shit women we've gotten in recent jRPGs.

 

[Shadowlink]

I'll take an anti hero bitch over a whiney emo or hell, an anti hero, guy any fucking day.

I'd rather take anything over a whiney emo character.

 

[TheChillyAcademic]

As would I, but genuinely happy optimistic people are just more pleasant to play as unless they won't shut up about. I'm not expecting Snow to say "we gotta save the world and we can totally do it cause we're awesome" every 3 seconds.

I'm assuming you were a fan of Tidus then.

 

[cosmicblizzard]

I fucking love Lightning. I don't see what the problem is with an emotionless female anti-hero. That's kind of badass in comparison to the uppity stupid shit women we've gotten in recent jRPGs.

I just don't like total bitch characters unless they're on the villain's side. What we need more of is completely insane female characters on the side of good. I'm talking Albedo insane. If Lightning was like that, I would never take her out of my party.

I'm assuming you were a fan of Tidus then.

Yep. I don't get the hate Tidus gets, but I can't really go any further than that in this thread.

 

[lorddarkflare]

Ashe is weak willed?

Spoiler

Danger danger!

But seriously, I'd like to know why she is weak willed in your eyes.

No, but she was indecisive, and for much too long. Besides, hand over heart + bowed head + sighs = Fail. Though she certainly is better than 90% of all JPN female protagonists.

I fucking love Lightning. I don't see what the problem is with an emotionless female anti-hero. That's kind of badass in comparison to the uppity stupid shit women we've gotten in recent jRPGs.

Well i hate the entire emotionless Anti-hero schitck completely. The fact that she is female is not relevant (though she is looking to be better than most JRPG females).

Yep. I don't get the hate Tidus gets, but I can't really go any further than that in this thread.

Oh Tidus, how i loathe you and every single character in X (to be Fair i hate mostly everyone in X-2 and only like Balthier and Cid in XII).

 

[HK-47]

I dunno. Choosing to kill a lot people to save your country or choosing not to and risking the destruction/subjugation of your people seems like something that most rational people would have a hard time deciding. Not to mention corruption of power and going with or against destiny.

I think its more that it takes so long to get from plot point to plot point it seems longer than it should have been. Maybe.

Have we found out what exactly Vanille's weapon...is?

 

[TheChillyAcademic]

Well i hate the entire emotionless Anti-hero schitck completely. The fact that she is female is not relevant (though she is looking to be better than most JRPG females).

To be fair, most of those characters who start emo or anti hero esque tend to end up "discovering" themselves or pulling the stick out of their ass.

Usually.

 

[Darkpen]

No, but she was indecisive, and for much too long. Besides, hand over heart + bowed head + sighs = Fail. Though she certainly is better than 90% of all JPN female protagonists.

Outside of the portrait cg, does she ever do the hand over heart thing? Also, what's your beef, or in fact, a lot of people's beef, with all of those things? Its just Japanese developers appeasing to their Japanese audience. You can get back to me when S-E releases an International edition in western territories

Well i hate the entire emotionless Anti-hero schitck completely. The fact that she is female is not relevant (though she is looking to be better than most JRPG females).

Lightning is not emotionless. Her character flaw is trying to be emotionless. That's her "schtick."

Oh Tidus, how i loathe you and every single character in X (to be Fair i hate mostly everyone in X-2 and only like Balthier and Cid in XII).

You hate everyone, that's not news :/

God forbid a character shows a different kind of charm that isn't full of bravado or snarkiness.

To be fair, most of those characters who start emo or anti hero esque tend to end up "discovering" themselves or pulling the stick out of their ass.

Usually.

Oh my, look at that, someone in this thread actually understands character development! I guess not everyone has shallow eyes :/

I dunno. Choosing to kill a lot people to save your country or choosing not to and risking the destruction/subjugation of your people seems like something that most rational people would have a hard time deciding. Not to mention corruption of power and going with or against destiny.

I think its more that it takes so long to get from plot point to plot point it seems longer than it should have been. Maybe.

Have we found out what exactly Vanille's weapon...is?

I agree with you completely, HK. Its not just "indecisiveness," as darkflare puts it. I would go into more detail about why I agree with you more, but then I'm reminded about WHY this is the second official information thread.

So please, let's not get off track.

Spoiler

The writing fell apart, and FFXII was focus-grouped. It could have been a much better game, etc etc. Ashe is a far more compelling and fleshed out character than darkflare gives credit

 

[HK-47]

He hates Auron. Clearly he is Chaotic Evil and must be destroyed.

 

[TheChillyAcademic]

Have we found out what exactly Vanille's weapon...is?

Sling shot/fishing rod/cat nip

 

[HK-47]

Sling shot/fishing rod/cat nip

Say what?

That almost as goofy as your shield.

I guess Fang uses her spear more for the extended cutting action then for stabbing.

 

[Darkpen]

I fucking love Lightning. I don't see what the problem is with an emotionless female anti-hero. That's kind of badass in comparison to the uppity stupid shit women we've gotten in recent jRPGs.

What you described is the reason why she comes off as cool, but it wouldn't be accurate to say that she's emotionless, let alone an anti-hero, especially based on preview coverage and the recent TGS trailer.

And out of curiosity, what other female protagonists are you comparing her to, exactly? And please don't say Star Ocean 4, Vesperia, Last Remnant, or any recent JRPG that borrows heavily from Japanese anime archetypes.

 

[TheChillyAcademic]

That almost as goofy as your shield.

I guess Fang uses her spear more for the extended cutting action then for stabbing.

It's an expensive shield.

I know I'll be using Fang for sure, even though I hate both her hair and her name.

 

[ZephyrFate]

What you described is the reason why she comes off as cool, but it wouldn't be accurate to say that she's emotionless, let alone an anti-hero, especially based on preview coverage and the recent TGS trailer.

And out of curiosity, what other female protagonists are you comparing her to, exactly? And please don't say Star Ocean 4, Vesperia, Last Remnant, or any recent JRPG that borrows heavily from Japanese anime archetypes.

You've just rattled off like every other recent jRPG. I'm saying that as of late there have been no great female jRPG protagonists. The only one, THE ONLY ONE, I can think of is Seth from Lost Odyssey, and even she loses steam later on.

We haven't had much screentime of Lightning in general, but her attitude seems to disregard everyone else around her as she does what she thinks is right. I call that more of an anti-hero attitude, and her cold attitude makes her come off as emotionless.

 

[Darkpen]

You've just rattled off like every other recent jRPG. I'm saying that as of late there have been no great female jRPG protagonists. The only one, THE ONLY ONE, I can think of is Seth from Lost Odyssey, and even she loses steam later on.

We haven't had much screentime of Lightning in general, but her attitude seems to disregard everyone else around her as she does what she thinks is right. I call that more of an anti-hero attitude, and her cold attitude makes her come off as emotionless.

That's true, because that's the attitude that she donned upon herself in order to be stronger for Serah, including the name "Lightning," as explained in the TGS trailer. Its her character flaw, just like it was for Cloud and Squall :/ Though IMO, Squall was more of a gray area character, as your perception and dialogue choices heavily affected your approach to playing his role. A lot of people remember him being super emo, and a lot of ellipses, but in reality, if you select the option that's least negative, he seems like a nice guy who gets mildly annoyed.

 

[cosmicblizzard]

You've just rattled off like every other recent jRPG. I'm saying that as of late there have been no great female jRPG protagonists. The only one, THE ONLY ONE, I can think of is Seth from Lost Odyssey, and even she loses steam later on.

We haven't had much screentime of Lightning in general, but her attitude seems to disregard everyone else around her as she does what she thinks is right. I call that more of an anti-hero attitude, and her cold attitude makes her come off as emotionless.

If episode zero is anything to go off of, she isn't really anything new. Just someone that tries to hide her hatred of most people and things. Yeah she holds some people close, but she's still a bitch that is only as deep as any other character like her.

 

[lorddarkflare]

Outside of the portrait cg, does she ever do the hand over heart thing? Also, what's your beef, or in fact, a lot of people's beef, with all of those things? Its just Japanese developers appeasing to their Japanese audience. You can get back to me when S-E releases an International edition in western territories

On Several occasions, i just finished playing the damn thing so it is still fresh in my mind.

Lightning is not emotionless. Her character flaw is trying to be emotionless. That's her "schtick."

I am aware. I just hate the entire thing because it has been done to death. Besides, it is not like Lightning is the first example of this in the series. And just so you know, when the emotionless anti-hero is the lead protagonist, that is almost aways part of their 'flaw'/'schtick'.

You hate everyone, that's not news :/

Yes i do, i am not ashamed to admit it.

God forbid a character shows a different kind of charm that isn't full of bravado or snarkiness.

Here you make an assumption. I love charm. Rikku, O'aka and Brother were my favorites from X/X-2. I love FFIX solely for this reason.

I agree with you completely, HK. Its not just "indecisiveness," as darkflare puts it. I would go into more detail about why I agree with you more, but then I'm reminded about WHY this is the second official information thread.

No, she most certainly is indecisive. That is not the issue. The issue is how the writers presented this. Had she been a male character, it would have been the done right. For what it is worth, she was probably the best of the three(Ashe, Basch and Balthier) in terms of development.

Spoiler

The writing fell apart, and FFXII was focus-grouped. It could have been a much better game, etc etc. Ashe is a far more compelling and fleshed out character than darkflare gives credit

You can make many arguments for the soundness of the writing behind Ashe, but in no way would i call her 'compelling' or even 'fleshed out'

 

[ZephyrFate]

If episode zero is anything to go off of, she isn't really anything new. Just someone that tries to hide her hatred of most people and things. Yeah she holds some people close, but she's still a bitch that is only as deep as any other character like her.

We have no idea how her character will actually develop, only assumptions.

As for lorddarkflare, at least we have Crystal Bearers for that FFIX charm.

 

[lorddarkflare]

We have no idea how her character will actually develop, only assumptions.

As for lorddarkflare, at least we have Crystal Bearers for that FFIX charm.

About the transforming weapons, do we yet know what the others have(we know what all the ladies have)?

 

[cosmicblizzard]

We have no idea how her character will actually develop, only assumptions.

As for lorddarkflare, at least we have Crystal Bearers for that FFIX charm.

As I said before, hopefully all inevitable epiphanies will be presented well. I'm guess Lightning will realize what's really important and stop being a bitch to some extent, but it would be poor development if she drops the whole act all at once. That happens way too much in RPGs (I'd give examples, but that would be spoilerish).

 

[ZephyrFate]

I have a feeling that with the FFVII look and feel they're going with the game, that they're also putting an equal amount of care into the game too. At least... I hope.

 

[Styles]

I'm not liking the pop-ins.

 

[lorddarkflare]

I'm not liking the pop-ins.

Pop-ins?

 

[Styles]

The draw distance. You can see monsters popping in during the field scene, though I know this is just a minor thing. Still, I'm curious.

 

[lorddarkflare]

The draw distance. You can see monsters popping in during the field scene, though I know this is just a minor thing. Still, I'm curious.

Yeah, but i think this was more or less unavoidable with the way that they have decided to setup explorable areas.

 

[Fimbulvetr]

About the transforming weapons, do we yet know what the others have(we know what all the ladies have)?

Sazh can switch between dual pistols and rifles. Not sure how it works.

Apparently magic can be augmented on to Snow's gloves(then again I'm pretty sure the TGS trailer showed Sazh's guns doing thunder damage), don't know about Hope.

 

[Perfect Blue]

The draw distance. You can see monsters popping in during the field scene, though I know this is just a minor thing. Still, I'm curious.

Really? I haven't noticed that. Hopefully it's fixed in time for release.

 

[Darkpen]

Some more bits on Versus XIII:

Noctis rides a motorcycle.
The system is like a combined classic Final Fantasy style and Kingdom Hearts style.
Nomura says the game is unbelievable looking and he thought it wasn't possible.
From internal previews, animation and graphics look realistic.
And again, new video as early as E3.

 

[dramatis]

Sazh can switch between dual pistols and rifles. Not sure how it works.

Apparently magic can be augmented on to Snow's gloves(then again I'm pretty sure the TGS trailer showed Sazh's guns doing thunder damage), don't know about Hope.

A boomerang can double both as a range and melee weapon, if large enough. The Hope figurine boomerang seems to show something else nifty though.

 

[Darkpen]

As I said before, hopefully all inevitable epiphanies will be presented well. I'm guess Lightning will realize what's really important and stop being a bitch to some extent, but it would be poor development if she drops the whole act all at once. That happens way too much in RPGs (I'd give examples, but that would be spoilerish).

You're basically saying you hope she doesn't go bipolar tsundere, which is an understandable concern.

A boomerang can double both as a range and melee weapon, if large enough. The Hope figurine boomerang seems to show something else nifty though.

While that's holds true in real life, is that considered and implemented by Japanese developers is the question :/

 

[Darkpen]

On Several occasions, i just finished playing the damn thing so it is still fresh in my mind.

I am aware. I just hate the entire thing because it has been done to death. Besides, it is not like Lightning is the first example of this in the series. And just so you know, when the emotionless anti-hero is the lead protagonist, that is almost aways part of their 'flaw'/'schtick'.

Yes i do, i am not ashamed to admit it.

Here you make an assumption. I love charm. Rikku, O'aka and Brother were my favorites from X/X-2. I love FFIX solely for this reason.

No, she most certainly is indecisive. That is not the issue. The issue is how the writers presented this. Had she been a male character, it would have been the done right. For what it is worth, she was probably the best of the three(Ashe, Basch and Balthier) in terms of development.

You can make many arguments for the soundness of the writing behind Ashe, but in no way would i call her 'compelling' or even 'fleshed out'

The trouble with Ashe is that she is, for a large part, another gear in the machine that makes up FFXII, and reflects the overall product, as do the other aspects of the game, as well as the other characters. That's pretty much my whole argument. Yes, ultimately, they all fall short, but in terms of premise and potential? There was a lot more going for her and the rest of the cast than what actually happened.

Also, I am in complete shock and surprise that you liked Rikku. That's so uncharacteristic of you :lol let alone BROTHER :lol :lol

 

[TheChillyAcademic]

The draw distance. You can see monsters popping in during the field scene, though I know this is just a minor thing. Still, I'm curious.

That one screen is the only gameplay we've seen that has any sort of pop in and even if that is still in the finished game, it's a relatively small gripe.

 

[gamergirly]

I don't see why there can't be maybe 8 playable characters this time around. I was always dissapointed with only 6 in FF12.

6 people WAS ENOUGH to deal with in FF12. Switching them out in battles, equipping/unequipping, optimizing their License Grid, figuring out who's doing what, their AI defenses, etc.. Can get crazy with just 6.

8 would make it insane. It was easier in the pre-FFX era to do all of that with your characters because it really was mostly stats with a much less complicated menu/battle interface

 

[TheChillyAcademic]

If episode zero is anything to go off of, she isn't really anything new. Just someone that tries to hide her hatred of most people and things. Yeah she holds some people close, but she's still a bitch that is only as deep as any other character like her.

She comes across in Episode Zero as bitter and self centered, despite how much she seems to care for Serah. Its basic and juvenile character writing but that is nothing new to the FF series. The familial connection between Serah and Lightning is unique (emotional/physical "links" seem to play a huge role in this entry" enough to hold my interest, for now. Strong female protagonists/antagonists who are decently believable is rare in JRPGs and I am looking forward to it in this game.

 

[Lady Bird]

Sincerely, I wouldn't judge the characters depth based on episode zero. Wasn't that written by another guy? Anyways, the moment I started reading it, it felt extremely juvenile to me, and had to stop. I wasn't sure if it was because of the translation or not, though.

I'll wait for the final game to form an opinion on Toriyama's skills (or lack of) in developing characters.

 

[Vrakanox]

What do you mean. You have two badass awsome females in Lightning and Fang. You have a ditzy little Riku/Selphie type in Vanille. Serah is possibly another playable character. That's 3 or 4.

For the males you have Hope, who seems cool, but is a little 15 year old kid. Sazh is a crybaby with an afro and a chocobo in his hair. He actually seems cool and will be a cool character. Snow is our only "badass" male character, and even him I don't find to be too badass, and I always thought his design was a bit generic. But whatever, besides the point.


I think the game needs one badass male character like an Auron. It would balance out all the girls and young children in the party.

I don't see why there can't be maybe 8 playable characters this time around. I was always dissapointed with only 6 in FF12.

Absolutely agree. This game really needs a better male cast of characters. Also some of the most popular Final Fantasy games had larger casts. FF6 had 14 characters and FF7 had 10 if I remember correctly. Even 9 and 10 had more.

It seems that over time the casts of characters have just gotten smaller and smaller. Honestly I know that square is capable of producing a good storyplot as well as having a large cast with many choices. They've done it before and they can do it again.

Heck they might as well throw in Serah also and give her a cool summon too. Lots of JRPGs these days have lots of characters that are interesting and even ones with smaller casts have excellent characters. I'm talking mainly of the "Tales of" series here (they usually have about 7-9). Just imagine what SE could do with their budget.

Of course that's all opinion based, maybe I'm just old school. Honestly anything over like 11 or 12 characters is usually too much for me. I did like the suikodens though.

 

[Skilletor]

Voice acting, animation, etc. would all cost a lot more now than they were back in the day. If there's no call for 1093840298 characters in the story, there shouldn't be 103984093802 characters in the story.

 

[Vrakanox]

Read the last two lines of the post again. I'm talking about adding like one or two characters to give more options not turning it into suikoden. Also whose to say how many characters the story "calls for".