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Game Over when MC dies in Persona is a terrible mechanic. Why is this still a thing?

Jeffrey

Member
Persona 5 doesn't have random battles.
If you are getting game overs enough for it to be an issue, change your strategy, get better personas, etc.
Getting game overs to bad luck in this game is very rare in my opinion. Is it bad luck that you didn't have a persona with mudo resistance? I don't think so.
If your time is truly limited in that you can't explore these options, then I don't understand why lowering the difficulty isn't a valid suggestion.

Game overs are rare enough that makes the mechanic seem pointless right?

Like if you were constantly in danger of dying, then yes that's what the game is. But when a freak random hit move that hits 4 times and crits, I'm not sure if I could do anything about that yet. Still 'only' 30 hrs in, so I don't have broke ass persona yet that covers all resistance.

Turning down difficulty is an option, but I still want to have fun when playing the game, and thats 99% of the time on normal.

Otherwise at some point I'll just watch some Let's play instead (if those weren't blocked)
 
Anyone want to inform me when the Dark Souls Elite community took over the Persona community?

Seriously, you guys are acting like Persona is this hardcore RPG series, when it's not.
You're talking about a character that is the best at every single party role in the game, can switch to any role whenever the fuck he wants, can pass off extra turns to other characters, can switch party members out during battle, has other party members taking fatal hits for him...

It's specifically because the game isn't hardcore that people aren't taking these complaints seriously. The game puts so many things in your favor that you look absurd to complain about a downside like that while also whining about how you want a "challenge" and don't want to use safety.
 
You're talking about a character that is the best at every single party role in the game, can switch to any role whenever the fuck he wants, can pass off extra turns to other characters, can switch party members out during battle, has other party members taking fatal hits for him...

It's specifically because the game isn't hardcore that people aren't taking these complaints seriously. The game puts so many things in your favor that you look absurd to complain about a downside like that while also whining about how you want a "challenge" and don't want to use safety.
Can do all that yet can't be revived like everyone else. Only ppl looking absurd in this thread is some of the "fans"
 

kewlmyc

Member
Because then you run into the issue where it's nearly impossible to lose once you stock up on revive items (which was the case in Persona 2). I think the game should at least let you retry battles, because forcing you to reload on non-bosses is archaic, but the MC death = game over as a concept is fine. The protagonist is like the Lord in Fire Emblem. Protecting him is a sub priority.

I wouldn't say that. SMT IV didn't have this issue and was still difficult. There are still plenty times your whole team can be wiped without much warning.
 

Sakura

Member
Game overs are rare enough that makes the mechanic seem pointless right?

Like if you were constantly in danger of dying, then yes that's what the game is. But when a freak random hit move that hits 4 times and crits, I'm not sure if I could do anything about that yet. Still 'only' 30 hrs in, so I don't have broke ass persona yet that covers all resistance.

Turning down difficulty is an option, but I still want to have fun when playing the game, and thats 99% of the time on normal.

Otherwise at some point I'll just watch some Let's play instead (if those weren't blocked)
Nah, I said game overs due to bad luck are rare. The mechanic is there to encourage better planning, persona fusing, etc.
Either way, if the only time you get a game over is due to freak scenario like you are describing, then it doesn't sound like it would be causing much lost time. Even then, defending to prevent criticals, having personas with resistances to physical etc elements mitigating the damage to you, there are ways to prevent those one offs.
 

dlauv

Member
The idea is that this game is all about you, so when you die the game is over. Also, you're the the most powerful member of the roster, so I assumed it was a haphazard balancing mechanic + haphazard role-playing device.

It's kind of lame with how everyone is a glass cannon, but oh well. There are plenty of save files/rooms and any significant amount of time lost will be made up by knowing enemies' weaknesses and strengths beforehand. You lose like 10-15 minutes at the most now.
 
Can do all that yet can't be revived like everyone else. Only ppl looking absurd in this thread is some of the "fans"
...yes, that's literally the point. He can do all that, so having his death be a failure condition as a form of balance is not some ridiculous notion.

And again, if you have a problem with that, the game already provides you with an option of negating that failure condition.
 

RRockman

Banned
I think it's an extraneous feature when the enemy needs one good turn to utterly wreck your team. Coming from p4 and p4G here and While I thought it was fascinating for the enemies and players to be bound to the same rules I wish they would simply go all the way and let you control your surviving team members. Though if they must enforce Brotag is down, battle ends, they could do a reverse pokemon and have your teammates carry you back down/out the dungeon to keep with the friendship theming and let total party kills be actual game overs.
 

Astral

Member
I'm ok with it honestly. You only get fucked if you get ambushed. If you're ambushed, at least in Hard mode, there's like at least a 50% chance you'll die. I just learned to be more careful and to not carry around a Persona with a bunch of weaknesses, especially Curse and Light.

I honestly kinda wish they would go back to P3's mechanics where an entire turn is wasted getting back up for both allies and enemies. Also that one status where if someone is attacked while knocked down it makes them dizzy for another turn. I feel like it added an extra level of strategy. It made it so that all out attacks weren't always the best option.
 
You sure found a good bee hive to kick.

I love the games, but that one aspect of it is really dumb and illogical. I play them in an odd manner in which I give the protag all of my best buffs and equipment.

It gets better when you're social links start getting strong, but it still is pretty dumb and serve's no greater purpose.

You were simply born with an immunity to Phoenix downs.

Just don't die

This is the mature discourse (or lack thereof) you should expect when you question such dogmas.

It can't be improved. Stop questioning things and being so critical with your thinking OP.
 
D

Deleted member 752119

Unconfirmed Member
It's why I play on Easy. I'm here for the style and story.

This. Mostly anyway. Have it on normal, but have dropped to easy a few times and then back up. P4G I just played on the 2nd easiest since you couldn't adjust on the fly.

I don't like turn based combat much anyway, so definitely don't want much difficulty or deaths extending what's already as super long game (at a time when I'm pretty sick of long games after all of them I've played the past few months--this will be my last long, single player game for a long while).
 

Neoweee

Member
This is going to be removed from Persona just like it has been removed from the mainline SMT series and Devil Survivor, and it will not be missed.

I think a lot of the people defending it here sound like people defending (OG) Persona 4's random skill inheritance after the rest of the SMT series had already dropped it. It was doomed, because it was bad, and the series is better for it.

EDIT: Strange Journey, Devil Survivor 1/2, and to a lesser extent Raidou 2 had eliminated random skill inheritance, between P4 and P4G's release, but during that time people were still defending and justifying the terrible mechanic for vague, obviously wrong "balance" reasons or whatever.
 

totowhoa

Banned
This is going to be removed from Persona just like it has been removed from the mainline SMT series and Devil Survivor, and it will not be missed.

I think a lot of the people defending it here sound like people defending Persona 4's random skill inheritance after the rest of the series had already dropped it. It was doomed, because it was bad, and the series is better for it.

I like the way it is in Persona, but I'd be perfectly happy with something similar to SMT where your party is handicapped considerably without the MC. For example, only the MC has access to items, so you would need to have a party member with a revive skill or finish the battle quickly.
 

NervousXtian

Thought Emoji Movie was good. Take that as you will.
It's a shit mechanic.

Also, and of the multitude of reasons to play Persona.. this mechanic doesn't crack the top 100.

Typically when it happens it's just RNG bad luck. It feels cheap because it is cheap.
 

Sylas

Member
This is going to be removed from Persona just like it has been removed from the mainline SMT series and Devil Survivor, and it will not be missed.

I think a lot of the people defending it here sound like people defending Persona 4's random skill inheritance after the rest of the series had already dropped it. It was doomed, because it was bad, and the series is better for it.
Nah, fuck random skill inheritance.
 
This is going to be removed from Persona just like it has been removed from the mainline SMT series and Devil Survivor, and it will not be missed.

I think a lot of the people defending it here sound like people defending Persona 4's random skill inheritance after the rest of the series had already dropped it. It was doomed, because it was bad, and the series is better for it.
What is this rest of the series you're talking about? They dropped it in Golden. Who is defending random skill inheritance?
 

dub dub

Neo Member
It adds a layer of strategy to the game, which in turn increases the tension and reward elements. It's kind of like a built in "Protect the VIP" mode where you would prioritize the wellbeing of the MC over dealing what could possibly the last blow on that boss, if you don't miss that is.

I personally think it's great in the way it forces you to pace down and think defensively while being on the offense.
 

Neoweee

Member
What is this rest of the series you're talking about? They dropped it in Golden. Who is defending random skill inheritance?

Yes, that's my point. They dropped it in Golden, but it was present in P4. Before P4G came out, people were defending the terrible mechanic. Nobody defends it now!
 

PK Gaming

Member
I wouldn't say that. SMT IV didn't have this issue and was still difficult. There are still plenty times your whole team can be wiped without much warning.

SMTIV is really only difficult at the beginning since your options are limited. There's a standard difficulty curve, but it goes out the window once you start pumping stats into Magic/Strength and Luck. Once you get sufficiently powerful, you can just stramroll through most encounters. And this isn't even lategame like most SMT games, you can get crazy strong, crazy fast in SMTIV. You only get wiped if an enemy ambushes you because's there's no Defense stat, but even then you can save anywhere so it's not that big of a deal.

Apocalypse had way better balance.
 
Actually no, it's not death. It's an attack with a chance of insta kill that only works if you are poisoned. There are plenty of bits and situations so it's avoidable. I know I didn't have that issue and killed Orphan easily.

Not my point at all. The point is it's not an interesting boss precisely because it relies on a cheap method of beating you which wouldn't even exist if you could revive your main character.

In fact I can't think of a famous well-liked boss based on this system. They're all just frustrating nuisances. Interesting bosses are creative and do things to target your team; crappy systems like this just encourage "rush the MC" encounters which is lazy (for lack of a better term) on the part of the developer.
 
Yes, that's my point. They dropped it in Golden, but it was present in P4. Before P4G came out, people were defending the terrible mechanic. Nobody defends it now!
You said after the series moved on, but the series only moved on in Golden. Strange wording.
 

Neoweee

Member
You said after the series moved on, but the series only moved on in Golden. Strange wording.

I'm counting the entire SMT mega-franchise. Persona 4's "Bring me a Demon with X" were so bad that every other team at Atlus immediately realized how completely fucked the skill inheritance system was, and changed it for the better.
 

Chorazin

Member
It adds a layer of strategy to the game, which in turn increases the tension and reward elements. It's kind of like a built in "Protect the VIP" mode where you would prioritize the wellbeing of the MC over dealing what could possibly the last blow on that boss, if you don't miss that is.

I personally think it's great in the way it forces you to pace down and think defensively while being on the offense.

It's never happened to me with a boss, because it's a boss and I'm ready for that. You're not casting all your Dejakas and what not on Random Shadow #50 for this dungeon you've beaten 49x already. It's basically "Oh you freak Critted and now i lost an hour since the last save room thanks a bunch."

I'd be totally ok if the MC dying ended the battle and you could restart from there on Normal. Move the loss of all progress since last save bullshit to Hard or higher.
 

zMiiChy-

Banned
Yuck, I was hoping Atlas ditched that terrible mechanic like they did with the SMT series.

I don't think I'll ever have the desire to play this game after everything I've heard about it.

Going to pass, especially after I forced myself to finish Persona Golden.
 

geestack

Member
i feel like the combat is so fast-paced that you can overcome setbacks like MC death pretty quickly; you say you lost an hour of gameplay, but there are save rooms on every floor of the dungeon which is actually way more generous than p4.

cheap deaths are trademarks of the franchise and atlus imo
 

Aselith

Member
Yuck, I was hoping Atlas ditched that terrible mechanic like they did with the SMT series.

I don't think I'll ever have the desire to play this game after everything I've heard about it.

Going to pass, especially after I forced myself to finish Persona Golden.

It's an extremely good game but if you didn't like P4, it's not gonna be for you for sure.
 

Thud

Member
SMTIV is really only difficult at the beginning since your options are limited. There's a standard difficulty curve, but it goes out the window once you start pumping stats into Magic/Strength and Luck. Once you get sufficiently powerful, you can just stramroll through most encounters. And this isn't even lategame like most SMT games, you can get crazy strong, crazy fast in SMTIV. You only get wiped if an enemy ambushes you because's there's no Defense stat, but even then you can save anywhere so it's not that big of a deal.

Apocalypse had way better balance.

Then again Apocalypse lets you retry every battle without a penalty.

I get it, you're a puppet. But it kinda makes the difficulty settings pointless.
 

Dunkley

Member
As someone who replays P3/4 at least once a year I gotta say I'm used to it by now, but given mainline SMT ditched it I was baffled that it is still in Persona 5.

Other games get by being plenty of challenging without a stupid mechanic like this. P5 holds your hand in a lot of ways and that's good, it's meant to be accessible. It allows you to restart bosses and from the nearest checkpoint on random encounters, the exhaustion system from P3 didn't come nor did party members staying dead if they fell during battle. The game gives you a nifty autoheal button, a assist button to automatically choose a spell that exploits weaknesses from any of your personas and gives you map markers to run after for a lot of shit.

Yet still, there's the MC Death = Game Over mechanic, which feels out of place given how accessible the rest of the game is.

I've never had the protag die due to my own fault, but I sure did to turn 1 mudos/hamas or crits obliterating the protag, and honestly that's my issue with it.

It doesn't make the game any more challenging, it doesn't "raise the tension" of random encounters, but it definitely is frustrating just to randomly lose time on RNG, and that isn't something determined by skill rather than a random roll where the game decides to waste your time.

And honestly? Out of all the features P5 has to make the game easy, I'd rather have that mechanic out in trade for all the QoL shit they put in.
 
I'm counting the entire SMT mega-franchise. Persona 4's "Bring me a Demon with X" were so bad that every other team at Atlus immediately realized how completely fucked the skill inheritance system was, and changed it for the better.
Devil Summoner 2 and Strange Journey didn't have random inheritance? Honest question, don't remember. I thought they only changed it with Devil Survivor.
 

Neoweee

Member
Devil Summoner 2 and Strange Journey didn't have random inheritance? Honest question, don't remember. I thought they only changed it with Devil Survivor.

Strange Journey made a half step to some kind of non-random seeding system, and Devil Summoner 2 did some split system between Active Skills (old random system), and selectable Passive Skill inheritance. So they are each half-steps between the old fully random system and the newer selectable system.

Devil Survivor is a further half-step, with Summoner 2's split between Active and Passive, but you can select which Active skills are inherited.
 

Spinluck

Member
What is even challenging about instadeath in scenarios where you don't get to react before your MC dies though?

It's not challenging. It's arbitrary.

I guess you can say that you need to be 100% sure to never get ambushed, but a) that's not possible with some enemies and b) that opens the can of worms that is the game's poor stealth controls.

The stealth controls suck, but the enemy awareness is laughably generous to the player. I ambush enemies like 3 steps away from me.

Insta death sucks, but there are ways around it and it rarely happens. At least for me.

Save your game, and realize the longer you go without saving the more at risk you are at losing your progress.

I still think the game would be too easy if I didn't have to worry about protecting the MC. Maybe they could scale back certain things on the enemy side for fairness, but I don't think it's always unfair.
 

Spinluck

Member
The idea is that this game is all about you, so when you die the game is over. Also, you're the the most powerful member of the roster, so I assumed it was a haphazard balancing mechanic + haphazard role-playing device.

It's kind of lame with how everyone is a glass cannon, but oh well. There are plenty of save files/rooms and any significant amount of time lost will be made up by knowing enemies' weaknesses and strengths beforehand. You lose like 10-15 minutes at the most now.

Yeah I agree for the most part. Especially since a lot of the time you MC can consistently steamroll enemy waves with minimal input from your other party members besides the all-out attack. The only time I really baton pass is for SP management.


And for the latter: Yeah I only have 5 of the 8 party members. But it kinda sucks how I don't feel like I have a tank at all.

I remember Kanji in P4 being able to take a beating unless I'm misremembering.

Is Ryuiji your tankiest hero? Seems that way, but he still gets wiped pretty easily too.
 
I think it just really comes down to that just removing this one mechanic will just make the game worse. The game need some kind of overhaul of its battle system, and in that process I'd be all for ditching instant game over from MC death(and I'd not cry over the loss of instant death skills either) while also making it so the mc isn't god tier by the time you get a couple personas fused with a few conifidants/s.links. He can still be the best, just maybe not 8/10/12/14 times better then the rest of the party members maybe(give them multi-able personas to? ...i know crazy idea)?

Is Ryuiji your tankiest hero? Seems that way, but he still gets wiped pretty easily too.
Ryuji has by far the most endurance from what I've seen, but he lacks any defense skill, to the point I think yusake might be better since he can both cast Sukukaja and has it auto cast on him. I'm only at the... 6th palace? so I'm not sure if anyone becomes better, or if anyone even gets Rakukaja skills(off hand anyways, normally I kinda ignore those spells until i get the aoe versions)
 
I mean I guess they could try making the game a lot harder with this because I never once died from my whole party being knocked out. The point is to have a lot of Personas ready to go and switch when needed. Also besides a few points there are ample save spots where you should not lose more than 30 minutes of progress unless you completely ignore save points.

I only died 5 times and never grinded, so really it comes down to your personas and social links (a lot of party will protect you from dying).

All that being said, I wouldn't be opposed, but they need to do some serious rebalancing. People playing this as their first persona seriously can't imagine life in persona 3 where the characters weren't controllable and your teammates were complete idiots. Well I guess you can because you can turn your teammates over to AI
 

Vanadium

Member
I didn't see many game overs in P5. Except in Palace 5 where there were long stretches with no safe room and crap enemies chock full of immunities. Palace 6 had a safe room around every corner it seemed like.

Ultimately this is frustrating, but sort of a integral part of risk in dungeon mechanics of the franchise.
 

TheEndOfItAll

Neo Member
This happened to me last night. I think i got hit by two straight Garus which I was weak to with my current persona. It only happened because I didn't notice a shadow close by me (it was not in the place I was looking) and then was surprised. I wasn't fully healed going into the battle, and they got the attacks off first.

In the end, it forced me to change strategy, ensure I was in cover more often, and make sure to swap personas or run away if needed. Also, keep MC healed as a priority rather than trying to keep others up.
 
This happened to me last night. I think i got hit by two straight Garus which I was weak to with my current persona. It only happened because I didn't notice a shadow close by me (it was not in the place I was looking) and then was surprised. I wasn't fully healed going into the battle, and they got the attacks off first.

In the end, it forced me to change strategy, ensure I was in cover more often, and make sure to swap personas or run away if needed. Also, keep MC healed as a priority rather than trying to keep others up.

Right, I think it also forced me to be more experimental in trying to fuse personas and make sure to have some that could face multiple situations.
 

TheEndOfItAll

Neo Member
Anyone want to inform me when the Dark Souls Elite community took over the Persona community?

Seriously, you guys are acting like Persona is this hardcore RPG series, when it's not.

It's certainly not a hardcore series. But this game feels a bit harder than the rest. What they've done from P1 to P5 is changed the focus away from party mechanics and piecing together a group of personas to focusing on battle strategy. P1 let you change others' personas while giving them a specific arcana they specialized in, so you essentially changed up people's abilities to suit the battle. Now, you are more locked in on what the other players can use, but your MC is overpowered and the battles are harder, with difficulty scaling pretty quickly as you go from battle to battle inside a dungeon.
 

Tigress

Member
It adds a layer of strategy to the game, which in turn increases the tension and reward elements. It's kind of like a built in "Protect the VIP" mode where you would prioritize the wellbeing of the MC over dealing what could possibly the last blow on that boss, if you don't miss that is.

I personally think it's great in the way it forces you to pace down and think defensively while being on the offense.

This is my feeling on it. The only time I've felt it was unfair was the first time I encountered it in 4 when it was my first persona game and I assumed it was like other party turn based games. Once I knew it existed what it did was change my strategy. But it does make me think more defensively and I think add in an element of strategy.
 

TheEndOfItAll

Neo Member
Right, I think it also forced me to be more experimental in trying to fuse personas and make sure to have some that could face multiple situations.

Right, and I'll probably do that too but I am still in the first dungeon so my options are limited. I just wasn't taking it seriously and got burned.
 

Majmun

Member
It's super lame. Especially when a low tier persona with mudo can insta-kill you.

Happened to me a few tims and that's annoying.
 

RurouniZel

Asks questions so Ezalc doesn't have to
So I was in a Palace running around solving puzzles and I ambushed an enemy. It wasn't easy anyway but I took it down and got EXP. MC was at full health after the battle.

Immediately upon regaining control, a shadow spawned behind me. With no time to react it ambushed me and immediately launched a fire attack to knock my MC over as I had no ability to change personas. Then on it's "One More" it did the exact same thing, killing the MC. Game Over.

As a Soulsborne vet there was nothing "difficult but fair" about this exchange; just a "Fuck You, go waste another hour," about it.
 

Jeffrey

Member
Is 'rarely happens' a valid argument anyways? Samsung Note 7 rarely explodes yet people freaked out about that xD

It has happened to me 3 times in my 30 hrs so far. 3 times too many imo.
 
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