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Game Over when MC dies in Persona is a terrible mechanic. Why is this still a thing?
- Thread starter Jeffrey
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lowhighkang_LHK
Member
What difficulty you playing on? I'm only about 20 hours in but so far normal mode has been brainlessly easy.
TetraGenesis
Member
This is stupid. Don't not play one of the best games of the generation because a single enemy's attack. Come on, son.
It actually made a ton of sense in the original P3, where you couldn't *control* your allies. Even if you didn't get a game over, you couldn't do anything!
How is not a tactical consideration? You have an almost dead character and your MC is half dead... which do you heal? Or do you do a mass heal that only heals a little and may not give your MC enough to take another attack or leave the rest of your party vulnerable? Sure, your MC dieing is game over, but letting another player die may put you in a lose situation too (it is not good to start letting party members die and can put you in a losing situation). What do you decide to risk?
Or, you have a few dead party members and a damaged MC.... do you raise the party members or do you heal the MC (either way you are using turns to heal rather than kill the shadow)? If you raise players you give more targets taht they may not target MC but if you don't heal you leave the MC more vulnerable to one more hit killing him.
I fail to see how it doesn't add giving tactical consideration to the game?
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
The problem is less management and more the occasional lack of manual dexterity in ambushing creatures because failure to execute an ambush (e.g. you accidentally jumped out of cover or something) generally results in you being surrounded and subject to a ton of hits without the opportunity to switch your defensive persona.
Instant death moves in rpgs pretty much always have a low chance of working. The times that they do work almost always suck unless its literally the first battle of a given session.
Came out like 2 weeks ago and its already an all time classic huh? That kinda hyperbole don't work on me! I mean I just got a PS4 last week with exactly 0 of the big name super hype games to accompany it.
Nop. In fact I see enemies target your companion first, and even they fail sometimes. Still, there are high level instant kill skills, but they start to appear at the end of the game.
Elaugaufein
Member
There are story reasons in 3/4/5 that makes the MC special but none of them require an instant game over strictly speaking.
semiconscious
Member
while i sympathize with your dislike of the mechanic (it's the one-shots that get me!
), not sure how you could've lost that much time if you've been saving whenever possible. i'm right where you are, & i've had maybe 3 game overs, total (playing on normal). you just shouldn't be dying that much, or losing that much time...Honestly, it's not really as big of a deal as it might seem. The player just needs to be a bit more aware for battles, since it's not one of those rpgs where you can spam attack and expect to breeze through everything. And if it's still problem, you can always switch to the safety difficulty mode.
Everything you said still applies even if the game didn't game over when the MC dies. I would have to deal with them being dead, like you do in plenty of other turn based jrpgs. Choosing who to heal or using group heals, focusing on who to protect and all that are all things you consider in a lot of other jrpg combat systems.
I know the common argument for why it's done here is because of how powerful the MC is and how it would make the game too easy if they changed it. But in that case, I would rather they re-balance the whole system. I personally feel like the MC is too powerful/useful compared to your party members anyways so I would be totally fine with them changing things in a future game.
Read the rest of the sentence:
You have minimum four chances of taking them out before they even cast it, assuming you are getting player advantage in a game where it's possible to start every fight with advantage. And in the off-hand chance that somehow they do cast it, it's still a really small chance you'll actually get hit by the ability.
Also, the very first Persona you get in the game resists such attacks, so... : \
Been playing on Merciless and the first thing I was having issue with was the idea that it seemed like the end of the dungeon put me 2 levels below what I needed and I spent a minute grinding to get the skill needed to beat the boss.
(having done the 4th dungeon on my first try (there is a funny story about this and it involves a Persona that doesn't take damage from certain things), I'm hoping that I'm beyond this point now since there doesn't seem to be too many unique skills left and it's just a matter of getting my defense and damage up... which still kinda involves grinding I guess because you know you're underleveled if someone can't survive a boss's ultimate attack even with defense buffs and guarding and whatever >_>)
But yeah, my perception is pretty different from most people since I just go under the assumption that if I don't end the mob battles in one turn and without the ambush bonus, I will have to reload my save :v
(actually, it can go a few turns as long as I put something to sleep and then hit it with a technical bonus during the next round of turns... on that note, I'm surprised that they don't really explain technical hits and I had to go to the tutorial menu once I realized that it was a thing)
But having played on the difficulty for this long (75 hours or something without dropping down), I do feel like you have a decent chance at never letting the enemy take a turn and that the save points are frequent enough to not make redoing gameplay too bad.
The stealth is super easy even if the detection can get stupid sometimes: you're automatically struggling if they happen to put a treasure between two stealth spots (which are indicated as spot light marks or whatever in that enhanced vision mode). I do suspect that the wonky detection has gotten people killed. I know I have been killed by it a few times :v
But yeah: as long as there is some kind of geometry between you and an enemy, it be feeling like they'll never see you lol
(they don't even see you if you just hug the wall, actually, since you are apparently considered hidden in cover even if you're within the enemy's sights)
(having done the 4th dungeon on my first try (there is a funny story about this and it involves a Persona that doesn't take damage from certain things), I'm hoping that I'm beyond this point now since there doesn't seem to be too many unique skills left and it's just a matter of getting my defense and damage up... which still kinda involves grinding I guess because you know you're underleveled if someone can't survive a boss's ultimate attack even with defense buffs and guarding and whatever >_>)
But yeah, my perception is pretty different from most people since I just go under the assumption that if I don't end the mob battles in one turn and without the ambush bonus, I will have to reload my save :v
(actually, it can go a few turns as long as I put something to sleep and then hit it with a technical bonus during the next round of turns... on that note, I'm surprised that they don't really explain technical hits and I had to go to the tutorial menu once I realized that it was a thing)
But having played on the difficulty for this long (75 hours or something without dropping down), I do feel like you have a decent chance at never letting the enemy take a turn and that the save points are frequent enough to not make redoing gameplay too bad.
The stealth is super easy even if the detection can get stupid sometimes: you're automatically struggling if they happen to put a treasure between two stealth spots (which are indicated as spot light marks or whatever in that enhanced vision mode). I do suspect that the wonky detection has gotten people killed. I know I have been killed by it a few times :v
But yeah: as long as there is some kind of geometry between you and an enemy, it be feeling like they'll never see you lol
(they don't even see you if you just hug the wall, actually, since you are apparently considered hidden in cover even if you're within the enemy's sights)
WrenchNinja
Member
Well yes, getting a game over does suck. But this instant death skill is particularly easy to avoid.
You are doing yourself a disservice using this as a reason to avoid the game.
Your starting Persona, Arsene resists Mudo/Dark skills
Man, you don't even need that stuff if you don't let an enemy take a turn lol
(that's not to say that you won't be killed from doing trial and error... but once you know the weakness of the enemies in the general area, it's pretty autopilot... and for enemies that don't have obvious weaknesses, like Oni or whatever, you use the technical hits from status effects to rack up damage before the first turn is over)
Not Spaceghost
Spaceghost
It's never really bothered me, p3 and p4 would have been way too easy without this mechanic. The deeper you go into any megaten game the easier it gets to break the game.
Hell I broke P4G on my first play through by getting victory cry and repel physical in like july by accident on a fusion from those special bonuses which just made the game a breeze for the most part.
I actually love games with a "protect the king" style like chess. It adds another layer of strategy where you want to make sure your next move doesn't compromise your kings safety, or if it does but it might lead to you winning the encounter super fast maybe it's worth the risk?
Hell I broke P4G on my first play through by getting victory cry and repel physical in like july by accident on a fusion from those special bonuses which just made the game a breeze for the most part.
I actually love games with a "protect the king" style like chess. It adds another layer of strategy where you want to make sure your next move doesn't compromise your kings safety, or if it does but it might lead to you winning the encounter super fast maybe it's worth the risk?
Coriolanus
Banned
TetraGenesis
Member
Was TLOU not one of the seventh generation's best games two weeks after it was released? It was one of the seventh generation's best games the day it released. What is your logic?
You're the one jumping to conclusions by saying you won't play the third highest rated game on PS4 (metacritic) because of one move that enemies (and you) have access to. It's absurd.
I can't believe you're making me defend this aspect of the game, because I do not like MC death = Game Over, but to write off the whole game due to your reasoning is quantifiably absurd.
I suspect I would be done with this game by now had I been playing on hard or something like a sensible person.
That said, I haven't experimented too much with the hit evasion stuff, actually.
I just assumed that you will get hit at some point in a longer fight, so I don't bother lol
(but then, this might be like... RE7 block button tier, so I should actually give it a go during the next boss fight)
Merciless mode is kind of weird, difficulty wise. I like how critical hits, weaknesses, and technical attacks have triple damage, and it goes both way. But cutting the amount of experience and money you get down to 40% of it's regular value is more tedious than outright difficult.
It is definitely tedious.
Doesn't even really mess with time management either since I'm doing dungeons in less than 5 days.
But boy do you spend a while in those dungeons during those 4-5 days :v
(not like I can help it though: even if I was on a lower difficulty, I would still be in the dungeons for a while after reaching the end since it takes a very long time to exhaust my SP)
I feel like the optimal difficulty for enjoyment is doing the dungeon on merciless, turning the difficulty down for grinding after you reach the end, then turning it back up for the boss.
But of course I didn't turn it down at all since that would make sense and I get to experience the joys of mashing the same enemies over and over for long periods of time.
Coriolanus
Banned
SMT titles, in the late game, usually give you some spell a la debilitate, which will lower attack/def/tohit all at once, and another spell to give the whole party att/def/hit increases, precisely because that's kinda expected for the optional bosses, and you could very well be dead by the time you finish casting them (plus it's boring as hell to keep casting those things)
It's pretty dang close to a re7 block button, tbh. Especially important with multihit attacks, since each dmg rolls for a separate tohit.
No, he's saying "if you can't handle a little challenge then play the baby mode for babies." It's condescending.
He acts like it's common knowledge that everyone knows you should cast tarunda all the time but you'd only know that if you're a persona vet, and a lot of people are coming into p5 as their first Persona.
Yeah, I don't have the cast all variations of the thing yet, which may explain why I haven't fucked with it too much.
Gotta use my turns to... not make this damn fight go on for forever...
DeadPhoenix
Member
Bull shit. I've not played the enhanced edition but this sure as hell wasn't the case in the original games.
Also just because people disagree with a critism doesn't mean they are Fanboys or whatever name you want to call them too discredit them.
Does safety mode mean no insta death moves and no game over if MC dies? If so I'd take that difficulty all day every day. Haven't played an rpg yet where higher difficulty means anything more then higher numbers for baddie stats anyhow, though I still normally pick normal so as not to completely roll over every encounter.
A chance is still a chance an when it succeeds it sucks hard. Especially if its a game over scenario! >_<
I dunno about TLOU since I never played it. Its a 3rd person survival shooter with a good story by gaming standards right? Not my kinda thing. I played some of Ocarina of Time back in the day an didn't care for it but thats a beloved all time classic. Not every classic is for everybody! If I was ruled by #'s I wouldn't have been obsessively playing Shining Soul recently (meta: 58%)! I think this is okay logic?
I don't like MC dead = game over so there was my first reason for even looking at this thread. Like wtf there are still rpgs that do this? Talk about a blast from the ancient past! Just... not of the good variety.
Second an the main reason in overall: if I was looking for a demo, I wasn't sold on the game to begin with, just curious. I played some of the Persona remake on PSP a ways back an remember not "getting" the battle system. A demo for 5 would've be a safe way of testing if its changed since then or is something I could adjust to!
The insta death stuffs just an added sour note to be honest. I've played many rpgs with that in them so on its own its not enough to keep me away, just something to complain about when a cheap party wipe happens because of it an hoping someday devs do away with it. Getting ambushed or critical hit is more than enough random pain chance. Throwing in a "hey you're dead because" is one level of asshole to far lol.
Safety mode means no game over if the MC dies. Instant death can still happen, but you are given the option to retry. The problem with safety mode is that you can't change to other difficulties once you're set to it (even on NG+ too, I think). So I suggest playing on Easy or Normal and then switching to Safety later on if you feel like it.
Your MC will not die immediately from a crit or ambush unless you've equipped a weak persona or are always at low health or don't bother to heal status ailments. That said.. I've died 3 times in like 70 hours (two of those were a full party wipe from status effects that I tried to wait out instead of heal lol), but it only took me about 10 min to get back to where I was previously.
This is my stance too. It was annoying in the 4th palace because enemies would pop out of caskets continuously and you can get ambushed by mistake because of it. If you are stuck ambushed by Anubis he can mudoon or hamaon your ass.
I don't mind insta death spell in Megaten but in this one the encounter mechanics makes it a bit irritating. Like you said jumping out of cover sometimes fail because of the one button do everything approach.
Fucking hell, angry much?
UltimateUnknown
Member
For those that may not know (if this is your first Persona game), just get your teammates' social links up to rank 9. All of them get an ability where they will protect your MC from a hit that would otherwise finish you off. If the other 3 members of your team that are in the battle with you have this ability, your MC is virtually invincible.
Storm Chamber
Banned
Using "git gud" for this is absolutely hilarious. What skill is involved in not having RNG fuck you over?
Nobody likes this mechanic, they just tolerate it because it's either deal with it or play something else.
Nobody likes this mechanic, they just tolerate it because it's either deal with it or play something else.
Ehh Persona 5 is pretty much Persona 4 New Script Edition. I love the game but it's hardly surprising or revolutionary.
But if you're gud, you're carrying Light- and Dark-resist Persona. And you're never even letting enemies attack. If you're ahead of the level curve -- and you should be -- you can fuse most Persona before you encounter them so you already know if they have Hama or Mudo. There's definitely counter-play.
Yeah, it's not a fun mechanic. Though once you get the all-party buffs, it becomes a non-issue since you can avoid getting rekt in a couple of turns. Training your Persona to cover their weaknesses helps a lot, too.
It's a real bummer when your entire party gets afflicted with despair, though. DESPAIR!
It's a real bummer when your entire party gets afflicted with despair, though. DESPAIR!
Storm Chamber
Banned
So you're playing with a guide at all times to know which demon does what beforehand. That's cool, but don't pretend like that's some display of skill or whatever. Its honestly not that deep, its just RNG catching you off guard.
No, not really. If I don't lose when my MC dies, if he is at medium health and some one is at low, guess who I'm healing? It's a no brainer. If I don't lose if my MC dies, using a heal all when only my MC is low on health and everyone else isn't as bad but still needs health also more of a no brainer. I will always pick the option that is less likely to get some one killed. Rather than pick the option that protects my MC and is less risky for him but leaves me more open to have some one else killed.
It does change strategy. It does force you to think more on what you want to risk more, your MC or the rest of your party. And I've had times where I end up just letting other members die so my MC stays living.
Maybe that's why you hate the mechanic? Because you haven't figured out to change strategies to make sure your MC stays alive first and foremost and think there is no change in strategy due to this. Because once you do, it's not a mechanic that gets you killed a lot unless you do something stupid or get really risky about something. Everytime I've died cause of that when I come back, I come back smarter and change my tactic from what I did before and manage to succeed. Granted I'm not playing on hard, just normal mode.
But I haven't found it to be all that unfair. The only unfair thing I find about the game is the mechanics for hiding and ambushing are really clunky and don't work well and the game insists you do that well to do well. If they are going to base a lot of strategy on making sure you ambush well, then they should give you controls that don't have you mess up easily due to stupid crap. And that I do think is worthy of saying they really need to fix/change. In fact I find a lot of complaints here about the MC dieing unfair deaths seems more to attribute to not doing an ambush well... and well, anyone want to argue the mechanics for ambushing aren't clunky and it isnt' easy to accidentally put yourself out of coverage at the wrong time (or even have it be really unfair and have it spawn a enemy right beside you as you come out of another fight?). Sometimes it will stick you in a spot that you can't see the enemy, it won't let you change hiding spots, and it is a little clunky unsticking yourself so even when you do have a small window of where you can tell he's not facing you (his dot is walking away) it's easy to unstick right as he turns around instead because it took a second or two to convince it or it did something else instead. Ok.. I could rant a lot about that
.Son Of Sparda
Member
I just lost 40 minutes of progress thanks to this.
It especially feels worse, since I'm in the
palace and there is a long stretch that you have to backtrack a couple of times and doesn't have any safe rooms. So you just cross your fingers that some enemy doesn't decide to basically one-shot you. (which certain enemies will)
It especially feels worse, since I'm in the
5th
Ryzaki009
Member
Ee has the same. Though to be fair its impossible to rez Bhaalspawn for plot reasons.
Yes, I was pretty pissed and in hindsight I probably should have toned it down a bit, but I really really hate when people talk down to others who don't like a certain mechanic or don't understand how to play "properly." The advice he gave was good but his attitude bothered me.
That's where you're wrong, because I actually like it, along with plenty of others. If you get ambushed, that's your fault. If you're running into enemies with all sorts of status moves, then properly prepare counters for them. Don't just go in expecting to mow down everything in your path, there's no strategy in that.
I did cause the guy was claiming there was no strategy change to having you lose the game if your MC dies. I mean it obviously does change strategy and force a strategy to have that and if he isn't seeing that, I really do think maybe that's why he has problems with the mechanic (if he's not seeing how it makes you change your strategy he is probably not changing his strategy to make sure the MC is more protected and having to start over more often due to that). The other complaints I've seen about it I think are more due to the really clunky ambushing system set in place and my disagreement with them is more that I think they are focusing on the wrong thing that needs to be changed about the game. Yes, the mechanic of MC dieing causes you to fail does make ambushing very important. And if they are going to make it important (I have no problems with that), they should give you the tools to be able to do it properly rather than clunky ones that is easy to mess up. I think the big problem is more on that honestly. I'm pretty sure everytime I've died where it felt really unfair it has a lot more to do with messing up the ambushing due to the controls being pretty clunky. And even then it doesn't happen too often and I've somewhat found ways around it (I still think the controls could be better and it would be more fun if they made the controls more precise).
It's funny to all these post from SMT newcomers.
I created a simple FAQ
1. Mudo/Hama is bullshit
A: Create a demon/persona with Resist/Repel/Null these elements
2. I don't want to fuse <insert first persona/demon>
A: You have to, it's basically how you progress.
3. Matador is impossible or <insert demon/boss> 1 hit me
A: Kaja and Kunda spell, use it. Pay attention to your weakness and enemy weakness and exploit it. Unlike most JRPG, buff, debuff, weakness, and status ailments are extremely important in SMT games and it's the only way you can survive through the game especially in higher difficulty. Matador boss in Nocturne is basically there to make sure you don't progress further without understanding the game mechanic.
To OP: Lower the difficulty if you don't enjoy these mechanic and stay away from Nocturne.
I created a simple FAQ
1. Mudo/Hama is bullshit
A: Create a demon/persona with Resist/Repel/Null these elements
2. I don't want to fuse <insert first persona/demon>
A: You have to, it's basically how you progress.
3. Matador is impossible or <insert demon/boss> 1 hit me
A: Kaja and Kunda spell, use it. Pay attention to your weakness and enemy weakness and exploit it. Unlike most JRPG, buff, debuff, weakness, and status ailments are extremely important in SMT games and it's the only way you can survive through the game especially in higher difficulty. Matador boss in Nocturne is basically there to make sure you don't progress further without understanding the game mechanic.
To OP: Lower the difficulty if you don't enjoy these mechanic and stay away from Nocturne.
letmetrythisname
Member
If you could save at any time (like in good RPGs that use this mechanic such as Baldur's Gate and Fallout) it wouldn't be an issue.
Elaugaufein
Member
Oh come on. You can't seriously be saying that one should only be using Persona that at least Resist both Mudo and Hama (or have an anti-Instadeath skill) for the entire game (or until your party memebrs get Protect or you have a bunch of Homunculus). That's like saying you shouldn't use most of the Persona in the game (which is why Hama / Mudo are bullshit).
I wouldn't mind it if they let you retry the battle for regular non-boss encounters. Persona 5 already has a "restart battle" option for bosses which is great, but also puts the game in a weird spot. The penalty for dying in a boss battle (just restart from the beginning of it) is much less severe than dying during a regular fight, where you lose all progress since the last safe room. Sure, minding your Persona's weakness, watching your health, being proactive with buffs/debuffs, and so forth all minimize the chance of MC dying, but I admit I do mess up one of those things occasionally. It's just a momentum killer to lose 20 minutes or so of progress just from one small mistake.
In persona 5 at least it's pretty easy to get a null curse or bless persona especially with lockup.
Having played through P4 after 5, this is very wrong. Mechanically and in terms of balancing, P5 is lightyears ahead of P4.