evil solrac v3.0
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Georgia and Russia at war
- Thread starter Cdammen
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YES..... YES give in... to the hatred... you know you want to.....
'hardcore' for what purpose. nothing is gained by escalating into war with Russia, and an Obama administration is less likely to provoke or insult them (no murmuring about kicking them out of G8 for starters, or ad-libbing a song advocating war to laughs in public).Chiggs said:
furthermore, how is Ukraine's entrance in NATO suddenly on the fast track? european position hardened (and rightfully so) against firm US support for both Georgia and Ukraine, and seeing how Georgia's carelessness started this fiasco, i can't see why Germany et. all would suddenly acquiesce on this.
Chiggs
Gold Member
scorcho said:
So basically, you're just scared? Fine, fair enough. War with Russia is a scary thought. Another scary thought is a completely hapless President, like President Muffley in Dr. Strangelove.
Oh, you don't think that's being mulled over? You don't think the recent events are making the Ukraine a priority? Fine, think whatever you want. If this keeps escalating, I don't think we can rule it out.
Well they are currently preping to invade the capital with 1 million people. Russia has 1,000 tanks in that country now.
The west not acting is bad overall. Eastern Europe if anyone should do something as they hate russia more than most realize. We do not know Russias ambition at this point so waiting is probably a good idea until they lauch a attack on that city. That is no small battle either.
The west not acting is bad overall. Eastern Europe if anyone should do something as they hate russia more than most realize. We do not know Russias ambition at this point so waiting is probably a good idea until they lauch a attack on that city. That is no small battle either.
ah, the machismo wing of foreign policy. to not attack is to be scared; might is right; my dick is bigger than yours; etc.Chiggs said:
war isn't simply 'scary', it's to be avoided unless absolutely necessary, and this affair neither threatens ours or NATO's security interests. this signals neither a march into the West (nuclear arsenal aside, Russia's military is a generation behind and its economy one-dimensional and based on petrodollars), nor an attack on American interests.
does this scenario also envision a new Hitler, concentration camps, flying pigs and cries of appeasement? if so John Barry's got you covered.Chiggs said:
Kubrick actually told Sellers to play the president straight, because he was meant to be the one character who comprehended the awfulness of the situation. In any case his weakness was in controlling his own hawks, not in being insufficiently belligerent towards the USSR.
Re-rail: NATO is not going to fast-track Georgia and it's not going to commit troops to a shooting war there or in the Ukraine. Which country is going to send those troops? The US is stretched thin enough as it is and there's no political will for war in Europe.
There's a gulf between "something should be done" and "something will be done."
Re-rail: NATO is not going to fast-track Georgia and it's not going to commit troops to a shooting war there or in the Ukraine. Which country is going to send those troops? The US is stretched thin enough as it is and there's no political will for war in Europe.
There's a gulf between "something should be done" and "something will be done."
Ok then...
http://civil.ge/eng/article.php?id=19051
Dear compatriots! In this very important, decisive and difficult period for our country, I want to describe the current situation and tell you about the ways of helping the country out of this situation.
First of all, I want to tell you that what is happening now against Georgia is obviously a military intervention planned months or years ago, which aims, at least, to occupy or annex South Ossetia and Abkhazia, and as a final result, to occupy entire Georgia.
That intervention force, which entered Georgia, is very big, very serious and of course, it contains a fatal threat to Georgian statehood. Today the freedom and future of each of us is under huge threat. An attempt of repeated occupation and enslavement of Georgia, depriving our country of its independence is underway. No doubt that it is real, against the background of the latest statements. If previously they said that they responded to the operation launched by us in South Ossetia and you know that we have not launched anything until the last minute yesterday and the day before yesterday official statements were made that the operation aimed at changing the Georgian authorities, changing Georgias course. It is translated from their language as the end to Georgias independence. Attacks are carried out against the Kodori gorge in Upper Abkhazia, attacks are carried in the direction of Abkhazia and Samegrelo. Yesterday there was an attempt to occupy Gori, which was repelled by our armed forces. I want to say that our armed forces are fighting very well. Their morale is increasing. Of course, I regret greatly and this is war. Of course, we have casualties, but our enemies have much more casualties. I declare this based on their sources. But this is a very serious test and in reality the success of our forces is based on their unimaginable heroism. Our enemies did not expect and they themselves said this in an official statement that they came across the resistance of the Georgian armed forces which was 12 fold more than they imagined.
But I want to say with full responsibility that we want to immediately end this military confrontation, we want to end the war, which we have not launched, we want to stop Russias intervention. We are ready and I have confirmed my support to the plan of French President Sarkozy and Foreign Minister Kouchner. Kouchner was here; President Sarkozy will arrive tomorrow. We are ready to immediately sign an agreement on ceasefire and non-resumption of confrontation.
We are expecting the visits of several European leaders, tomorrow. As I already said, President Sarkozy will arrive. Many European ministers are presently visiting Georgia. Today a great amount of humanitarian aid will start arriving from the entire world. The first planes from France will land within two hours and others will arrive afterwards, including from Turkey, Ukraine, Germany, Denmark, other European states.
I want to tell those people, who have left the conflict zone we will return you all and until this conflict is over, I gave the strictest instructions, not to leave even one person without attention. I want to say that of course, there was chaos within the first hours, we were not prepared for it and they attacked us treacherously. If you remember, I was constantly increasing the military budget and many used to say, why he is doing that - just for this occasion, for this unfortunate day. We failed to increase it as much as I wanted.
It is not worth saying but if we had not lost time on inner confrontation last autumn, we would have been much better prepared. But today we are well-prepared and we have the motivation to defend our country, to save the independence and statehood of our country, to save the future of each of us, to give a proper response to our enemies.
I want to say with full responsibility, we should save our country ourselves. Nobody else will be able to do it. Of course, international support is important, international diplomatic involvement is decisive, but if we are not very mobilized, if we do not show heroism, if we do not resist this huge brutal force, without our dedication Georgia will not be able to stop this confrontation.
All what is happening now bombings, especially those of civilian facilities, at night, shelling - has the only objective, to demoralize our society, to seed panic in the society. I want to thank everybody, those tens of thousands of Tbilisites, who came out in the streets last night and expressed their huge support towards Georgian statehood. I want to thank those people I traveled from the east to the west and back although Russian aircraft were flying above us and although the highway was shelled during our movement, I saw Georgian national flags flying on cars and I saw Georgian flags flying on balconies - this is our response, our unity, our bravery, our endurance, and we will certainly liberate the entire Georgia. This is what is happening now, this is Georgias struggle for national liberation, this is a response to the war imposed on Georgia, a response by the Georgian societys resistance, the Georgian societys heroism in order to maintain liberty, statehood, and the future of our children. The officials of foreign countries should never define the future of our children. The future of our children and our country should be ruled by the democratic government elected by the Georgian society, which will act in the interests of the people, in the interests of multi-ethnic society, and will never dance to others tune and the time will never come, when we clean the shoes of foreign officials. We helped Georgia up from its knees within the last few years. We should not allow anybody to make us kneel again. Georgia should find its way out of this situation. Georgia should manage to restore peace and to establish good relations, including with Russians, who attacked us.
I also want to address the Russian public of course, all media outlets are blocked now, but information is leaking out we do not fight with the Russian people. We are not angry with the Russian society. Much injustice has been carried out against Georgia, against each Georgian. But the time will come - I am sure - when we will have very good relations again. But we will defend the freedom of our country, the independence of our country with our teeth, to the last drop of blood. God bless each of us. God bless the freedom of Georgia. God bless our soldiers, our heroes. Long live Georgia.
http://civil.ge/eng/article.php?id=19051
Dear compatriots! In this very important, decisive and difficult period for our country, I want to describe the current situation and tell you about the ways of helping the country out of this situation.
First of all, I want to tell you that what is happening now against Georgia is obviously a military intervention planned months or years ago, which aims, at least, to occupy or annex South Ossetia and Abkhazia, and as a final result, to occupy entire Georgia.
That intervention force, which entered Georgia, is very big, very serious and of course, it contains a fatal threat to Georgian statehood. Today the freedom and future of each of us is under huge threat. An attempt of repeated occupation and enslavement of Georgia, depriving our country of its independence is underway. No doubt that it is real, against the background of the latest statements. If previously they said that they responded to the operation launched by us in South Ossetia and you know that we have not launched anything until the last minute yesterday and the day before yesterday official statements were made that the operation aimed at changing the Georgian authorities, changing Georgias course. It is translated from their language as the end to Georgias independence. Attacks are carried out against the Kodori gorge in Upper Abkhazia, attacks are carried in the direction of Abkhazia and Samegrelo. Yesterday there was an attempt to occupy Gori, which was repelled by our armed forces. I want to say that our armed forces are fighting very well. Their morale is increasing. Of course, I regret greatly and this is war. Of course, we have casualties, but our enemies have much more casualties. I declare this based on their sources. But this is a very serious test and in reality the success of our forces is based on their unimaginable heroism. Our enemies did not expect and they themselves said this in an official statement that they came across the resistance of the Georgian armed forces which was 12 fold more than they imagined.
But I want to say with full responsibility that we want to immediately end this military confrontation, we want to end the war, which we have not launched, we want to stop Russias intervention. We are ready and I have confirmed my support to the plan of French President Sarkozy and Foreign Minister Kouchner. Kouchner was here; President Sarkozy will arrive tomorrow. We are ready to immediately sign an agreement on ceasefire and non-resumption of confrontation.
We are expecting the visits of several European leaders, tomorrow. As I already said, President Sarkozy will arrive. Many European ministers are presently visiting Georgia. Today a great amount of humanitarian aid will start arriving from the entire world. The first planes from France will land within two hours and others will arrive afterwards, including from Turkey, Ukraine, Germany, Denmark, other European states.
I want to tell those people, who have left the conflict zone we will return you all and until this conflict is over, I gave the strictest instructions, not to leave even one person without attention. I want to say that of course, there was chaos within the first hours, we were not prepared for it and they attacked us treacherously. If you remember, I was constantly increasing the military budget and many used to say, why he is doing that - just for this occasion, for this unfortunate day. We failed to increase it as much as I wanted.
It is not worth saying but if we had not lost time on inner confrontation last autumn, we would have been much better prepared. But today we are well-prepared and we have the motivation to defend our country, to save the independence and statehood of our country, to save the future of each of us, to give a proper response to our enemies.
I want to say with full responsibility, we should save our country ourselves. Nobody else will be able to do it. Of course, international support is important, international diplomatic involvement is decisive, but if we are not very mobilized, if we do not show heroism, if we do not resist this huge brutal force, without our dedication Georgia will not be able to stop this confrontation.
All what is happening now bombings, especially those of civilian facilities, at night, shelling - has the only objective, to demoralize our society, to seed panic in the society. I want to thank everybody, those tens of thousands of Tbilisites, who came out in the streets last night and expressed their huge support towards Georgian statehood. I want to thank those people I traveled from the east to the west and back although Russian aircraft were flying above us and although the highway was shelled during our movement, I saw Georgian national flags flying on cars and I saw Georgian flags flying on balconies - this is our response, our unity, our bravery, our endurance, and we will certainly liberate the entire Georgia. This is what is happening now, this is Georgias struggle for national liberation, this is a response to the war imposed on Georgia, a response by the Georgian societys resistance, the Georgian societys heroism in order to maintain liberty, statehood, and the future of our children. The officials of foreign countries should never define the future of our children. The future of our children and our country should be ruled by the democratic government elected by the Georgian society, which will act in the interests of the people, in the interests of multi-ethnic society, and will never dance to others tune and the time will never come, when we clean the shoes of foreign officials. We helped Georgia up from its knees within the last few years. We should not allow anybody to make us kneel again. Georgia should find its way out of this situation. Georgia should manage to restore peace and to establish good relations, including with Russians, who attacked us.
I also want to address the Russian public of course, all media outlets are blocked now, but information is leaking out we do not fight with the Russian people. We are not angry with the Russian society. Much injustice has been carried out against Georgia, against each Georgian. But the time will come - I am sure - when we will have very good relations again. But we will defend the freedom of our country, the independence of our country with our teeth, to the last drop of blood. God bless each of us. God bless the freedom of Georgia. God bless our soldiers, our heroes. Long live Georgia.
Im not sure how this is being covered by the US press but it seems pretty clear that the Georgian President took a huge gamble to return a rebel province to government control, one of his goals since coming to power. His gamble back fired, why should the west save him from a situation of his own making? Can you see the hypocrisy if it did?Nicodimas said:
Chiggs
Gold Member
Mandark said:
Re-Derail: Kubrick told Sellers to play it straight partly because Sellers' early takes, involving the symptoms of a cold, were extremely over-the-top, this according to the documentary which was packaged with the DVD. This was done to demonstrate the character's wimpiness.
Georgian Ministry of Defense claims Russia is advancing on Capital Tbilisi. Russia denies. It's 6 am there now.
http://www.russiatoday.com/news/news/28829/video
http://www.russiatoday.com/news/news/28829/video
One thing I would like to note. Reading more about the "Union State". Abkhazia expresses interest in joining. Abkhazia is the northwest breakaway region on the Kidori Valley. This would add to the Union State (Currently Russian Federation and Belarus).
I don't think Russia is accepting any agreement that doesn't include the two territories breaking away from Georgia.
To support my thoughts.. Serbian response to the conflict:
I don't think Russia is accepting any agreement that doesn't include the two territories breaking away from Georgia.
To support my thoughts.. Serbian response to the conflict:
Chiggs: I know that Sellers was originally playing him as a dithering asthmatic. I've seen that doc. My point is that those takes were left out of the movie for a reason.
Back on topic, is there any reason to think that Georgia's going to be fast-tracked for NATO membership other than your own preferences?
Or what a "hardcore" policy towards Russia would look like?
Back on topic, is there any reason to think that Georgia's going to be fast-tracked for NATO membership other than your own preferences?
Or what a "hardcore" policy towards Russia would look like?
Chiggs
Gold Member
Mandark said:
Hey, I said Ukraine. Granted, it could be argued that would enrage them further, but I think there's also a good chance that even threatening something like that could put a stop to things.
I know you'll probably laugh, but I don't think the G8 thing can be ruled out. I know that's being tossed around by people you probably dislike (Fred Barnes and Charles Krauthammer) but it's the best I can even think of right now. There are limited options, admittedly.
I just really don't like the idea of doing nothing for Georgia. Like Avaya mentioned earlier, it's just going to bite us in the ass.
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D92GC5G80&show_article=1
Holy crap IF Russia had shot down any U.S. military flights taking Georgian troops home.
Holy crap IF Russia had shot down any U.S. military flights taking Georgian troops home.
Did the Czechs provoke Hilter? Georgia made a move thinking either that it had the backing of the west or Russia would just sit back and allow them the annex a province technically full of Russian citizens. You make your bed, you sleep in it.g23 said:
If the US hadn't supported Georgia's arms build up or backed them for NATO membership would this current situation exist? What if the west had called on Georgia to stop their military operations against South Ossetia before Russia intervened?
Or you can take the Fox News spin...
Edit: Bush has no ground to criticise Russia after the shit he has pulled but is he really stupid enough to keep military trainers on the ground and start pumping money into Georgia? I can remember how this ended last time.
evil solrac v3.0
Member
not much of a country if you have to major regions wanting to break away from you.
Ventrue said:Czech Republic didn't exist until 1993.
ugh i meant czechlovakia or whatever..
Still, that territory is entitled to Georgia. Its sovereign. And last time i checked the rebels were making incursions into Georgian territory first. Georgia had a right to put down the rebels in a province that they are entitled to in order protect its own people.
speculawyer
Member
Warns? How about 'urges'? Warns implies some possible consequences. What exactly are you gonna do cowboy?
Chiggs: Whoops, my bad misreading.
Extending NATO membership to the Ukraine is tricky now. I don't see much, if any political will for actually fighting Russia, so NATO would have to be banking that the membership itself would serve as a deterrent. That's a bit of a risk.
Anyway, a G8 expulsion? Really? Unless that's backed up by some military muscle or real economic pain (both really unlikely) it's a symbolic move. It ratchets up the tension with no real benefits.
Extending NATO membership to the Ukraine is tricky now. I don't see much, if any political will for actually fighting Russia, so NATO would have to be banking that the membership itself would serve as a deterrent. That's a bit of a risk.
Anyway, a G8 expulsion? Really? Unless that's backed up by some military muscle or real economic pain (both really unlikely) it's a symbolic move. It ratchets up the tension with no real benefits.
Ether_Snake
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Chiggs said:
The population is more likely to be against it. The populations of Poland and CR are also against the missile defense shield. Russia knows that what they are doing now is having an impact in their favor when it comes to both the missile defense program and NATO membership.
Ukraine couldn't be attacked as far as I know because Russia would have no major justification.
Everyone needs to understand the following: no major powers want to confront each other, but they all want to move their chess pieces right now. The US in the Middle East, China in Africa, Russia in Eastern Europe. This means that as long as one can justify their actions, the others will let them do it because everyone is reluctant to face off against each other, but at the same time they need to save face so they'll spout a lot of rhetoric, sometimes giving the impression they are ready to go to war, but in the end they are just trying to save their image while giving up at the same time.
That's why the US managed to get into Iraq and Afghanistan and surround Iran, through justifications, and it's how Russia can get away with its actions in Georgia, and how the US can dare to implement an anti-missile shield next to Russia. It's always thanks to preposterous justifications, but since no one wants to fight each other it all goes through. If Russia could justify an action against Ukraine then fine, it may happen. But it would be more likely that they would carry limited strikes in Poland and CR against the anti-missile shield infrastructure. And this is also what the US wants or expects to some extent, knowing full well that the the anti-missile shield is pointless just like they knew Russia would find a pretext to move on Georgia. The US needs justifications, and if Russia moves they will have some.
It's the only currency the major powers can use against each other.
From my reading involving Yulia, it's up to the Ukrainian people through referendum, and the government (which is pro nato/euro) is looking to educate the people on it. That is assuming Ukraine even gets off the ground with the Membership Action Plan. And NATO heads speaking that expansion of NATO isn't a priority.Mandark said:
After this conflict, I think Germany and France will be increasingly uneasy about it.
Also I've read the Ukraine government has been closing Russian movie theaters and stuff? They're trying to ween the people away from Russia it would seem.
agreed, and Saakashvili apparently believed that the US would rush to bail Georgia out should they fail. it was reckless and stupid. there is nothing to gain by the US going in, and we've already stretched our military in Iraq and Afghanistan.einhard said:
as to fast-tracking Ukraine into NATO, if part of the European opposition was to avoid encroaching onto Russia's border and play further into their Cold War mindset, that calculation isn't devalued at the least.
Xeke said:
An interesting point; no, I wouldn't. I'm not really sure how to reconcile the two extremes, but the present reason why you can't secede is because the government has the force to stop you. The borders of the country were defined by the armies and force of the government in the past. By this logic, if Russia can conquer Georgia, it is their sovereign territory.
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