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Georgia and Russia at war
- Thread starter Cdammen
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GenericPseudonym
Banned
einhard said:
There is a difference, albeit a small one between arming the Taliban and arming Georgians, I mean you certainly don't have Contras attacking America. Regardless, if Russia can support the South Ossetians then the US may very well decide to support Georgia like this.
That doesn't make any sense at all. Short term it would serve nothing, longterm would probably destabilise the region as other various group try to grab some power, eventually maybe even leading to a second "Middle east" clusterfuck, and will certainly drive resource prices higher. Sounds like an awesome plan.GenericPseudonym said:
speculawyer
Member
Some random comments.
According to some reports, when the Russians started invading, Georgian TV started playing the movie "Red Dawn" on state television. :lol WOLVERINES!!!
This invasion of Georgia is really Putin taking a huge steaming dump on Bush. Bush has been really friendly to Georgia and tried to get them into NATO. And Putin just beat up Bush's little buddy and there is little Bush can do but watch Georgia suffer.
And it isn't it funny how no one talks about Medveydev or whatever his name is but instead we all talk about Putin. :lol
According to some reports, when the Russians started invading, Georgian TV started playing the movie "Red Dawn" on state television. :lol WOLVERINES!!!
This invasion of Georgia is really Putin taking a huge steaming dump on Bush. Bush has been really friendly to Georgia and tried to get them into NATO. And Putin just beat up Bush's little buddy and there is little Bush can do but watch Georgia suffer.
And it isn't it funny how no one talks about Medveydev or whatever his name is but instead we all talk about Putin. :lol
speculawyer said:Some random comments.
According to some reports, when the Russians started invading, Georgian TV started playing the movie "Red Dawn" on state television. :lol WOLVERINES!!!
This invasion of Georgia is really Putin taking a huge steaming dump on Bush. Bush has been really friendly to Georgia and tried to get them into NATO. And Putin just beat up Bush's little buddy and there is little Bush can do but watch Georgia suffer.
And it isn't it funny how no one talks about Medveydev or whatever his name is but instead we all talk about Putin. :lol
The Bush vs. Putin or 'moral equivalence' of Iraq vs. Georgia has got to stop. It's not a wrong analysis, because Iraq destroyed America's moral authority and Bush is the architect of that destruction, but it missed the main point.
This 'war' is strategic payback for US/EU/NATO supporting Kosovar independence. Russia can argue if Kosovo can be independent, breakway regions in the former soviet bloc can also become independent and rejoin Russia.
It's a land grab, it's also a strategic heads up to the West that Russia will play Soviet style (ie tit for tat hardball). If you think this is some sort of vindication of anti-Bushism or Anti-Americanism, it's none of that, it's as much a slap in the face of the EU as it is of the Americans, probably much more of a slap on the EU because it's in their own backyard and the EU was the leading proponent of self-determination in the former Yugoslavia.
Lost Fragment
Obsessed with 4chan
The big difference between Georgia and Iraq is that Georgia won't have a bunch of batshit motherfuckin crazy Muslims come in who 100% believe they'll be popping ectoplasmic cherries in the afterlife if they start suicide bombing buildings.
Lost Fragment said:
Being Muslim has nothing to do with insurgencies, when a foreign army occupies any country there is a tendency to create immense nationalism among the population and that feeds militia elements who are doing what they feel is their right to protect and regain what is rightfully theirs. Survival instincts kick in.
speculawyer
Member
I'm not trying to draw any such moral equivalence.Deku said:
I'm just talking on a personal relationship scale. Just a couple of days ago I saw Bush and Putin chatting away there at the Bejing Olympics opening ceremony. Bush has always thought he's had a good relationship with Putin. Sorry Bush, your ability to 'read the soul' of a KGB guy is pretty poor. You've been had.
speculawyer
Member
There is a big difference between resistance/insurgency and Islamic Jihadis. Not too many people are willing to be suicide bombers for a war over some land (some do). But people will do batshit stupid stuff over their perceived God.thefit said:
speculawyer said:
Its the same thing only the religious element is there because it serves there culture as a recruiting tool for the same purpose, taking back there homeland. Iraq's insurgency is a combination of factional strife built around difference in there religious beliefs but the end result was the same, land. Look at the Kurdish north, by all purposses another "extremist" wing of the same religion but they haven't attacked the US forces because they had already carved out there autonomous region under Saddam. The other element were the foreigners pouring in for some action, those we blandly called al-quaeda in Iraq but even they had the same goal, to drive out the US and implement there own government and piece of the pie.
Those who want us to be afraid of Muslims as if they have some kind of hatred built in because of their religion are simply using that ignorant fear to gain politicaly and its the same on the other side. Why aren't the leaders of these "terrorist" groups out blowing themselves up? They are sly and sick as any modern government with an army, they have soldiers for that and in their case they recruit the weak minded to carry out their type of war. I feel as bad for the soldier sent to carry out the orders of a war hungry head of state as I do for the poor shmuck who think he's really blowing himself up for god. Its the same sad thing.
Sorry I picked your post, but I wasn't responding to you specifically.speculawyer said:
thefit said:
Except it's not just the US, the EU supports the aspirations of many of the former Soviet blocs, Ukraine/ Georgia to join NATO, Russia doesn't like this.
Also, Russia views itself as the protector of the slavic people. NATO's actions against Serbia and the dismembering of Kosovo from Serbia was a huge slap in their face.
All of that plays into it.
The America 'meddling' analysis is seriously flawed. It's very much a geopolitical chess game between the western allies, US included of course, and Russia and its allies.
zoku88 said:
France opposed it,
Correction: I did a quick fact check. What I said isn't entirely accurate.
http://www.diplomatie.gouv.fr/en/fr...z_1978/defence_1983/france-and-nato_1435.html
einhard said:
The land is within Georgia's legal borders, not Russia's. The reference to Czechoslovakia(Sudentland) was one of the justifications Hitler used to invade them. BTW, some cat from Stanford was on the tube saying this pot has been boiling since Georgia declared independence from the USSR. IOW, the NATO issue inflamed the matter, but it was very likely to happen anyway.
Hwang Seong-Gyeong
Banned
They'll annex Abhazia/S Ossetia from Georgia sure, but no one will occupy Georgia. Too expensive, no reward, too much international community whining, just not going to happen.
TTG said:
I don't believe the cold war ever really ended. Russia never stopped being a superpower.
Russia going away as a superpower, the cold war ending, was alot of hype during the 1990s, IMO.
Maybe the cold war slowed down somewhat, tensions eased up, Russia's conventional forces got smaller, but since Putin took power Russia re-asserted itself, payed off its debt, built up its military, develeped new strategic weapon systems, etc. The BEAR is back, but it never went away, it was just hibernating. The so called "new" cold war isn't really new.
Some historians write that in the 1960s (or some decades ago) Russia said they would even fake a breakup of the Soviet Union to lull the west to sleep.
Anyway, that's how I see Russia. Anyone agree ?
Apocryphon
Member
camineet said:
No. I think you've had one too many Skittles...
thefit said:
This is true. However, what is interesting is looking back on the Balkan War. The divides between the two sides fighting in what is now Serbia and Bosnia were strong - but in the media they were portrayed as the Serbs vs Muslims. The muslim (Bosnian) population being on the receiving end of aggression by Serbia. The more interesting fact is that the religion of the aggressors was not made an issue in that war (no surprise, as the aggressors were predominantly christian).
Nationalism is a major factor in these kinds of conflicts (at least superficially) but it's interesting that the media plays up religious allegiances when it is more pallatable to their audience, and downplays it when it is not.
Not that Im blaming religion at all here (though I'm sure it plays a part like Nationalism) - my complaint is with the identification of groups of people by the media, and the bias the media demonstrate.
AndyIsTheMoran
Banned
thefit said:
Nationalism...in Iraq, are you serious? The country is younger than my grandparents. god we wish we could encourage more nationalism among Iraqis so they would unite and rebuild on their own instead of struggling for power.
And this isnt always the case when said country has a unliked dictator or repressive regime.
AndyIsTheMoran
Banned
camineet said:
Yes I agree, but alot has changed in the country and the region. About being a superpower still i dont think they are. In terms of influence and power they have lost alot of ground after the fall and china seems to be picking up what they dropped.
MaddenNFL64
Member
Really, the people in these border areas want reunifiaction with Russia. If Russia supports them, whats the argument? Georgia tried to keep them, shot some missles into town. Russia retaliated. I don't see the problem. They are the big dog in the region & decided to protect an area of interest to them.
Russia hasn't retreated. They are holding their positions and will fight back and quell any resistance. Reconnaissance operations will continue. They've been ordered to stop advancing. In the mean time a cease fire hasn't even been signed.Steeven said:
Russia has effectively taken South Ossetia and Abkhazia and destroyed much of Georgian military infrastructure. Considering how eager Saakashvili was for a cease fire, I don't think they'll launch another assault while Russia is there.
Russia rejects any cease-fire agreements that includes them leaving Georgia, Abkhazia, South Ossetia, and returning to things were before the conflict began. Now comes the UN shuffle of sorting out this mess and what it will take to get Russia to leave.
A cameraman was killed, and a correspondent was hit in the leg by shrapnel from an explosion.Roi said:
NSFW: http://www.ad.nl/multimedia/archive/00169/akkermans_169166a.jpg
RandomVince said:
The media is completely lazy or just doesn't show up and its only been getting worse. Its much easier for them to follow the scripted narrative of the government than do real reporting. Its a whole lot easier and lazy for the population to swallow military action if you're told who the ememy is by painting a particular group of people as mini-Hitlers.
You would get way to many questions if the media actually did their job and began actually reporting all the facts. We had "embedded" media in the Iraq war that shows you how far the pentagon went to get its side ahead of the facts not to mention that every so called military expert on the news was on the pentagon payroll and where helping the propaganda along. How quickly we forget these fact which are criminal, the US government is not allowed to propagandize to its own citizen and that's exactly what happened here but you don't see the media report on that either.
In a joint press conference with the French president, Medvedev gave his conditions to a cease-fire :
Withdrawal of the Georgian army from both enclaves.
Allowing NGO's access to Ossetia.
Withdrawal of the Russian army from Georgian / Ossetian / Abkhazian territory.
Starting an international process in order to ensure safety and independace to both Ossetia and Abkhazia.
Sarkozy is going to Tbilissi next to negociate with the Georgian pres.
Withdrawal of the Georgian army from both enclaves.
Allowing NGO's access to Ossetia.
Withdrawal of the Russian army from Georgian / Ossetian / Abkhazian territory.
Starting an international process in order to ensure safety and independace to both Ossetia and Abkhazia.
Sarkozy is going to Tbilissi next to negociate with the Georgian pres.
interesting counterpoint to the Slate piece linked to earlier in this thread - http://www.mcclatchydc.com/255/story/47631.html
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