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Georgia and Russia at war

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Uncle

Member
ErasureAcer said:
yahoo intro:

Declaring "the aggressor has been punished," the Kremlin ordered a halt Tuesday to Russia's devastating assault on Georgia.

WTF...didn't Russia start this shit?


They probably both started it. Besides it's not like it has to be true for them to say it.


zoku88 said:
So, I wonder what Russia is going to get out of this truce.

And S Ossetia... and that .. other region...

Two things come to mind. First Georgia will probably not be joining NATO anytime soon, and second Russia will have a nice foothold south of the Greater Caucasus mountains (which will be handy if they ever need to cut certain oil and gas pipelines going to Europe, for example).
 

scorcho

testicles on a cold fall morning
clockradiospeakers said:
I'm quite shocked this is 'over'. I wonder how long it'll last.
not much to be shocked about. Russia accomplished what it needed to - they made a farce of Georgia's military buildup and showed Ukraine that the West isn't dependable. on top of that they got out before international opinion hardened against them.
 
Xabora said:
Doc1985.jpg
 

Zenith

Banned
The problem with Turkey is that the majority of the population is Muslim and this doesn't play well in areas of mainland Europe. This is just a transient feeling though and it will pass.

no, Turkey having an Islamic population was a huge plus point in the EU's eyes. they think it will improve relations with other Islamic countries. the main reason it was rejected was that it has the higest rate of imprisoning journalists in Europe. it's still illegal to criticise the army.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7558399.stm

Rusian tanks still in georgia and reports of looting.
 

Ceres

Banned
Didn't notice this posted. Interesting info about cyber attacks made just before the invasion.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/13/technology/13cyber.html?em

Weeks before bombs started falling on Georgia, a security researcher in suburban Massachusetts was watching an attack against the country in cyberspace.

Jose Nazario of Arbor Networks in Lexington noticed a stream of data directed at Georgian government sites containing the message: “win+love+in+Rusia.”

Other Internet experts in the United States said the attacks against Georgia’s Internet infrastructure began as early as July 20, with coordinated barrages of millions of requests — known as distributed denial of service, or D.D.O.S., attacks — that overloaded and effectively shut down Georgian servers.

Researchers at Shadowserver, a volunteer group that tracks malicious network activity, reported that the Web site of the Georgian president, Mikheil Saakashvili, had been rendered inoperable for 24 hours by multiple D.D.O.S. attacks. They said the command and control server that directed the attack was based in the United States and had come online several weeks before it began the assault.

As it turns out, the July attack may have been a dress rehearsal for an all-out cyberwar once the shooting started between Georgia and Russia. According to Internet technical experts, it was the first time a known cyberattack had coincided with a shooting war.

More at the link.
 

Kapsama

Member
Zenith said:
no, Turkey having an Islamic population was a huge plus point in the EU's eyes. they think it will improve relations with other Islamic countries. the main reason it was rejected was that it has the higest rate of imprisoning journalists in Europe. it's still illegal to criticise the army.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7558399.stm

Rusian tanks still in georgia and reports of looting.
Uh, right. Maybe to some rational fellows at strategic think tanks, but not to the average fear mongering European leader who use it to get themselves elected and rally their bases.
 

Zenith

Banned
Uh, right. Maybe to some rational fellows at strategic think tanks, but not to the average fear mongering European leader who use it to get themselves elected and rally their bases.

riiiight. from the BBC:

What are the arguments in favour of Turkish membership?

One of the main arguments is that it will help forge a bond between the West and the Muslim world, and help Turkey spread stability in the volatile region beyond its eastern and southern borders.

Hwang Seong-Gyeong said:
Only CNN reported that so far, and side other journalists from APF apparently. Not sure how trust worthy that is.

so did BBC.
 

Azih

Member
Hwang Seong-Gyeong said:
Ukraine has time and time again gone against it's very own financial intrests because they benefit Russia. The goverment leads an anti Russian policy all around. Anything it takes from giving ex Nazi supporting people higher pensions than the ones that fought on the side of the Red Army, naming streets in the name of people given to anthema by the orthodox church to provoke the russian orthodox population, supressing the use of russian language as much as possible, essentially when the orange pro americans came to power they started rewriting history of the origins of ukrainians, russians, belarussians and slavs as a whole. They want to make a Ukranian Orthodox church that answers to pope essentially making it a catholic one.
Naming streets? Really? That that has nothing to do with *Russia* the country. Is this some sort of ethnic sensitivity stuff like in the former Yugoslavia, the kind of thing that drove Bosnians to put up a statue of Bruce Lee as one of the few things they could think of to commemorate so that no one would feel insulted/aggrieved enough to justify starting a fucking war? I bet there was no rewriting of history either, I bet there have been multiple versions of history for the longest freaking time and the people in power now have a different version of it than you do.
 
Azih said:
Naming streets? Really? That that has nothing to do with *Russia* the country. Is this some sort of ethnic sensitivity stuff like in the former Yugoslavia, the kind of thing that drove Bosnians to put up a statue of Bruce Lee as one of the few things they could think of to commemorate so that no one would feel insulted/aggrieved enough to justify starting a fucking war? I bet there was no rewriting of history either, I bet there have been multiple versions of history for the longest freaking time and the people in power now have a different version of it than you do.

Hey it if countries like Ukraine, Estonia and Latvia want to glorify the Nazis, I'm sure Americans wouldn't mind if in 10 years Iraq starts putting statues of Saddam Hussien and calling him a protector against agressors and that he died as a martyr defending his country.
 

Uncle

Member
Yeah, how dared the Estonians move that statue of a Soviet soldier? The USSR was their friend and there to protect them! And this is the thanks they gave... They didn't even ask permission or anything! Fucking nazis.
 
Uncle said:
Yeah, how dared the Estonians move that statue of a Soviet soldier? The USSR was their friend and there to protect them! And this is the thanks they gave... They didn't even ask permission or anything! Fucking nazis.

Fuck the soviet statue. But statues to Nazis? How is that accepted.
 

Rur0ni

Member
Ned Flanders said:
Wow live interview with the Russian Pres on CNN? That was interesting..


EDIT: Georgian Pres, rather..:D
Georgian Pres keeps running to CNN to make sure the American people know who is the victim here.
 

Uncle

Member
Hwang Seong-Gyeong said:
Fuck the soviet statue. But statues to Nazis? How is that accepted.


Do you have a link to that story? I haven't heard about it and all the google results I got seemed to be about the Soviet soldier statue.
 
Uncle said:
Do you have a link to that story? I haven't heard about it and all the google results I got seemed to be about the Soviet soldier statue.


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...rial-is-erected-to-ss-executioner-564715.html

Estonia accused of anti-Semitism after memorial is erected to 'SS executioner'

History should not offend half of the country, just like removing Soviet statues is a good idea because it's part of very conflicting past that causes division in the country. But so is something as provocate as this.

You don't take down potraits of Stalin to replace them with Hilter.

And that's exactly what Viktor Yushenko is doing in Ukraine.
 

Uncle

Member
Hwang Seong-Gyeong said:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...rial-is-erected-to-ss-executioner-564715.html

Estonia accused of anti-Semitism after memorial is erected to 'SS executioner'

History should not offend half of the country, just like removing Soviet statues is a good idea because it's part of very conflicting past that causes division in the country. But so is something as provocate as this.

You don't take down potraits of Stalin to replace them with Hilter.



"The edifice was built on private land without government money". I see.
 
Uncle said:
"The edifice was built on private land without government money". I see.

Don't worry it was backed up the goverment regardless, the lack of objection to it pretty much meant a big yes. You're not going to see a statue to erected to SS members in any civilazed country that will not be met with protest from the goverment due to it's obvious provocative nature.
 
So the ceasefire is officially broken of now or what?

http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/08/13/georgia.russia.war/index.html

"Chance, who was riding in the convoy, said there was no resistance from Georgian soldiers, and it was possible that the Russians were on a scouting mission to choose a buffer zone between the breakaway region of South Ossetia and Georgian territory. Chance described the flag-waving Russians as relaxed."

Maybe they are right they are just setting up a buffer zone. Who knows.
 

Ether_Snake

安安安安安安安安安安安安安安安
Looks like Georgia will be thrown into chaos, even if the Russians now leave. A bit like Iraq.
 

Steeven

Member
US sending humanitarian aid by sea and by air. Question is: will Russia allow it? Secondly, will they ship weapons too, secretly?
 

Tamanon

Banned
Gates is in charge of the humanitarian side....that's....kinda odd, I guess since we'll be using troops to deliver it, hopefully that doesn't get ugly.
 

Kinan

Member
Hwang Seong-Gyeong said:
You don't take down potraits of Stalin to replace them with Hilter.

And that's exactly what Viktor Yushenko is doing in Ukraine.

Lol, you are really a joke character. Watching Russian TV much?


Anyway, its more or less clear now that total raising of Tsinkhvali with GRAD never happened.

Just look at the photos:

http://pics.livejournal.com/drugoi/pic/00gxxctk.jpg
http://evrazia.org/gal/i/599.jpg
http://evrazia.org/gal/i/600.jpg
The trees still have their fucking leaves! Obviously there were heavy street fights with tanks and whatnot, but the city after total cover bombing with grad gotta look like a desert. Just compare with photos after Russians raised Groznyi:

http://www.ljplus.ru/img3/j/a/jan_voskresensk/ugol-travyanoj-apteki-vid-na-dvorec.jpg
http://i213.photobucket.com/albums/cc32/sakateka/Untitled__-1.jpg

Now thats a proper use of GRAD! Those Georgians cant do anything right.
 
Kinan said:
Lol, you are really a joke character. Watching Russian TV much?


Anyway, its more or less clear now that total raising of Tsinkhvali with GRAD never happened.

Just look at the photos:

http://pics.livejournal.com/drugoi/pic/00gxxctk.jpg
http://evrazia.org/gal/i/599.jpg
http://evrazia.org/gal/i/600.jpg
The trees still have their fucking leaves! Obviously there were heavy street fights with tanks and whatnot, but the city after total cover bombing with grad gotta look like a desert. Just compare with photos after Russians raised Groznyi:

http://www.ljplus.ru/img3/j/a/jan_voskresensk/ugol-travyanoj-apteki-vid-na-dvorec.jpg
http://i213.photobucket.com/albums/cc32/sakateka/Untitled__-1.jpg

Now thats a proper use of GRAD! Those Georgians cant do anything right.

Ukraine, statues, Viktor Yushenkov have nothing to do with Tshinvaly and if Grad rockets. You completely misquoted me on something else.
 
Tamanon said:
Gates is in charge of the humanitarian side....that's....kinda odd, I guess since we'll be using troops to deliver it, hopefully that doesn't get ugly.
Yeah I thought this was a more major piece of news than the broadcasters seemed to be percieving it to be.

Diplomatic and humanitarian in any case, that's still a top US diplomat now going into the capital and the military moving some presence (even if only air) into that country. On one hand, that's quite the move. It sends a very strong signal to Russia and were they to violate the ceasefire under -those- conditions, it changes things a fair bit. It's capitalizing on good timing, too; getting in that extra layer of threat while the ceasefire makes it less politically threatening. But even under these conditions, Russia isn't going to like it.

It seems a rather good move but I was expecting the news to focus on its weight more. It'll be interesting to see how Russia reacts now.
 

avaya

Member
Zenith said:
riiiight. from the BBC:

Pleas tell me you are not this naive. In France for example it is political suicide to support Turkey's accession.

Have you forgetten the Greeks? They will veto like crazy.

Across Europe, acceptance of the Turks due to Islam is an issue. Politicians will never say this in public but it is the truth and everyone knows it.
 

Steeven

Member
Source: Reuters

TBILISI, Aug 13 (Reuters) - President George W. Bush's pledge to send aid to Georgia means that the U.S. military will take control of the ex-Soviet state's ports and airports, Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili said on Wednesday.


Interesting.
 

Zamorro

Member
Russia exaggerating South Ossetian death toll, says human rights group

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/aug/13/georgia

Deliberate attempts by the Russian government to exaggerate the number of people killed in the South Ossetia conflict are provoking revenge attacks on Georgian villagers in the breakaway republic, a respected human rights group claimed today.

...

Neistat said that doctors at Tskhinvali hospital had provided figures that 273 wounded people had been treated there during the conflict and a total of 44 dead people had been brought to the city morgue. Russian and South Ossetian officials have claimed that 1,400 people were killed in the first day of fighting, mostly in Tskhinvali.

There have been reports of Ossetians burying relatives in their allotments and there are no lists of the casualties. Neistat stressed that HRW's investigation was not complete but she added: "By day five of a conflict one normally expects that there is some kind of list of the dead and injured, or at least an indication of their age and gender. But here there is no information. Absolutely nothing."
 

GSG Flash

Nobody ruins my family vacation but me...and maybe the boy!
One thing I've learned from this conflict is that Saakashvili is a complete and utter dumbass.
 

besada

Banned
GSG Flash said:
One thing I've learned from this conflict is that Saakashvili is a complete and utter dumbass.

Because he's lost two provinces he didn't have in the first place, convinced America to send aid and troops, and damaged Russia's standing with the rest of the world?

Frankly, both sides are looking a little stupid.
 

GSG Flash

Nobody ruins my family vacation but me...and maybe the boy!
besada said:
Because he's lost two provinces he didn't have in the first place, convinced America to send aid and troops, and damaged Russia's standing with the rest of the world?

Frankly, both sides are looking a little stupid.

No, more from his actions before the cease fire. The Americans were always supporting Georgia, no matter who or what he convinced, and I don't think Russia's standing in the world is damaged at all, people already knew what the Russians are like.
 
Steeven said:
Source: Reuters

TBILISI, Aug 13 (Reuters) - President George W. Bush's pledge to send aid to Georgia means that the U.S. military will take control of the ex-Soviet state's ports and airports, Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili said on Wednesday.


Interesting.

What could possibly go wrong?
 

Steeven

Member
Mango Positive said:
What could possibly go wrong?


The Saakashvilli claims of American control of Georgian airbases and ports has already been countered by the Pentagon:

Source: Reuters

U.S. Military does not plan to take control of Georgian ports, airports for aid mission.


Saakashvilli is crazy, he's trying to bring more countries into his war.
 
This war really emphasizes how important an independent and free press is. Both sides have been making claims that the other side has been committing genocidal acts. It would really be nice to have lots of indepedent press around so they could tell us who is telling the truth and provide us with evidence.


Supposedly Condi Rice warned Georgia a few months ago not to fuck with Russia. Assuming that is true, that is some of the best advice she's given . . . and it shouldn't be surprising since she is an expert on Russia. It is too bad that one of the few times that she's actually given really good advice, it wasn't followed. :-(
 

Rur0ni

Member
Steeven said:
The Saakashvilli claims of American control of Georgian airbases and ports has already been countered by the Pentagon:

Source: Reuters

U.S. Military does not plan to take control of Georgian ports, airports for aid mission.


Saakashvilli is crazy, he's trying to bring more countries into his war.
Over the course of this conflict, I've come to learn this.
 
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