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Georgia and Russia at war

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S

speculawyer

Member
Steeven said:
The Saakashvilli claims of American control of Georgian airbases and ports has already been countered by the Pentagon:

Source: Reuters
U.S. Military does not plan to take control of Georgian ports, airports for aid mission.
Saakashvilli is crazy, he's trying to bring more countries into his war.
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Yeah . . . as much as I criticize the Bush adminstration, this looks like it wasn't their fault. As a former Soviet Republic that was not a NATO member, Georgia appears to have gotten too uppity. Russia clearly abused this situation for their own gain, but Georgia was foolish to give Russia the opportunity to do so.

Don't taunt the bear.
 
S

speculawyer

Member
besada said:
Because he's lost two provinces he didn't have in the first place, convinced America to send aid and troops, and damaged Russia's standing with the rest of the world?

Frankly, both sides are looking a little stupid.
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We have NOT sent troops. In fact we have removed advisors that were there. We have sent humanitarian aid and flew their own troops home from Iraq. The USA is clearly looking to support Georgia but they are doing so in a way that is clearly not military aid and they deny all claims of helping militarily.

Damaged Russia's standing? I don't think so. Russia clearly don't look like good guys . . . but they didn't before this either. USA & Europe have been complaining about Russia's anti-democratic actions for years now. Yeah, this lower's Russia standing but it was already really low already. But this also did show that you don't fuck with Russia, so on the tough-SOB-scale, Russia's standing has gone up.

But yeah, they both look stupid . . . and that is very often the case with war. Very rarely is anyone completely in the right.
 
Z

Zamorro

Member
speculawyer said:
We have NOT sent troops. In fact we have removed advisors that were there. We have sent humanitarian aid and flew their own troops home from Iraq. The USA is clearly looking to support Georgia but they are doing so in a way that is clearly not military aid and they deny all claims of helping militarily.

Damaged Russia's standing? I don't think so. Russia clearly don't look like good guys . . . but they didn't before this either. USA & Europe have been complaining about Russia's anti-democratic actions for years now. Yeah, this lower's Russia standing but it was already really low already. But this also did show that you don't fuck with Russia, so on the tough-SOB-scale, Russia's standing has gone up.

But yeah, they both look stupid . . . and that is very often the case with war. Very rarely is anyone completely in the right.
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http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/13/world/europe/14prexy.html?hp

Mr. Bush said that a transport plane with medical supplies was already on its way to Georgia, and that American air and naval forces would carry out the aid mission. And he said pointedly that Russia must not interfere with aid arriving in Georgia by air, land or water.
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I hope the Russians can differenciate between troops providing aid and troops providing military assistance. And yeah, that last sentence looks like a threat by Bush.
 
H

Hwang Seong-Gyeong

Banned
Saakashvili's goal was to probably enter Ossetia and stay there. The key part was to get there before the Russian forces and block the passage from North to South Ossetia. Then nothing would smoke the Georgians out of there.

Or he wanted the international community to react and send Western peacekeepers into the area, and they'd probably be pro Georgian.

Russia was probably provoking as much as possible too.
 
O

OgnodoD

Member
Russian troops roll into key Georgian city

OUTSIDE GORI, Georgia - Russian troops and paramilitaries rolled into the strategic Georgian city of Gori on Wednesday, apparently violating a truce designed to end the conflict that has uprooted tens of thousands and scarred the Georgian landscape.

Georgian officials said Gori, a central hub on Georgia's main east-west highway, was looted and bombed by the Russians before they left later in the day.

Moscow denied the accusations, but it appeared to be on a technicality: a BBC reporter in Gori reported that Russians tanks were in the streets as their South Ossetian separatist allies seized Georgian cars, looted Georgian homes and then set some homes ablaze.
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http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/georgia_russia
 
L

laserbeam

Banned
Good old Russians. never taking anything serious. This will of course cause further stress in the region and set peace back even further
 
L

Lost Fragment

Obsessed with 4chan
I think both sides are lying out of their asses. From seeing his interview on CNN, the Georginian president seems...mentally unbalanced. It's not gonna be until the dust settles and the smoke clears that we find out what really went on. Hopefully cooler heads will prevail and that will be soon.

I think the US should stay the fuck out of it until we have a better vision of the truth.
 
X

Xapati

Member
Lost Fragment said:
I think both sides are lying out of their asses. From seeing his interview on CNN, the Georginian president seems...mentally unbalanced. It's not gonna be until the dust settles and the smoke clears that we find out what really went on. Hopefully cooler heads will prevail and that will be soon.

I think the US should stay the fuck out of it until we have a better vision of the truth.
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The US military probably knows exactly what has been going on. Just because the public doesn't know doesn't mean they don't.
 
D

Deku

Banned
Popular consensus among many US officials is that Georgia was baited into attacking S. Ossetia, as there was a negotiations breakdown days prior and the Russians were the puppetmasters of the separatists. There is strong personal enmity between Putin and the Georgina president.

This gave the Russians, which unsurprisingly had troops ready and waiting to go at the border to attack.
 
H

Hwang Seong-Gyeong

Banned
Deku said:
Popular consensus among many US officials is that Georgia was baited into attacking S. Ossetia, as there was a negotiations breakdown days prior and the Russians were the puppetmasters of the separatists. There is strong personal enmity between Putin and the Georgina president.

This gave the Russians, which unsurprisingly had troops ready and waiting to go at the border to attack.
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Without a greenlight from the US? I mean they have poured so much money into Georgia to miltarize it and install a pro US goverment. Or is Saakasvili more independent than that... guess we'll never know.
 
D

Deku

Banned
Hwang Seong-Gyeong said:
Without a greenlight from the US? I mean they have poured so much money into Georgia to miltarize it and install a pro US goverment. Or is Saakasvili more independent than that... guess we'll never know.
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Probably without US support, as the allies were clearly not prepared for the Russian response.
 
S

SpoonyBard

Banned
Deku said:
Popular consensus among many US officials is that Georgia was baited into attacking S. Ossetia, as there was a negotiations breakdown days prior and the Russians were the puppetmasters of the separatists. There is strong personal enmity between Putin and the Georgina president.

This gave the Russians, which unsurprisingly had troops ready and waiting to go at the border to attack.
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Yeah, that's seem to be pretty much what happened. Russia has been provoking Georgia for months at least, and supplying the rebels etc. It was almost four months ago when Russian Migs shot down the Gerogian reconnaissance drone at Abkhazia.
 
H

Hwang Seong-Gyeong

Banned
SpoonyBard said:
Yeah, that's seem to be pretty much what happened. Russia has been provoking Georgia for months at least, and supplying the rebels etc. It was almost four months ago when Russian Migs shot down the Gerogian reconnaissance drone at Abkhazia.
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You can also blame the US for arming and militarizing Georgia, a country on Russia's border. That's a pretty hostile move too IMO.
 
A

avaya

Member
Hwang Seong-Gyeong said:
You can also blame the US for arming and militarizing Georgia, a country on Russia's border. That's a pretty hostile move too IMO.
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The Georgian "army" if you want to call it that is basically one man and his dog. It was crushed like a bug.
 
H

Hwang Seong-Gyeong

Banned
avaya said:
The Georgian "army" if you want to call it that is basically one man and his dog. It was crushed like a bug.
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They didn't have anti aircraft missiles and an airforce. They got billions in financing from the US, and those articales posted are correct, military spending increased by over 40 times when Saakashvili came to power.

Regardless, this probably wouldn't have happened if not for US financing. This whole war I mean.
 
S

SpoonyBard

Banned
Hwang Seong-Gyeong said:
You can also blame the US for arming and militarizing Georgia, a country on Russia's border. That's a pretty hostile move too IMO.
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Hardly, the Georgian army was tiny compared ot the Russian army. It seems to me like the Americans just gave them some training and sold them some weapons in exchange for sending troops ot Iraq. Like they had to do with several other countries in order to get their little "coalition of the willing" going.
 
B

besada

Banned
SpoonyBard said:
Hardly, the Georgian army was tiny compared ot the Russian army. It seems to me like the Americans just gave them some training and sold them some weapons in exchange for sending troops ot Iraq. Like they had to do with several other countries in order to get their little "coalition of the willing" going.
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You've forgotten that Russia has special rights to have weak, unarmed neighbors so they don't get insecure.
 
F

Fun Factor

Formerly FTWer
speculawyer said:
Damaged Russia's standing? I don't think so. Russia clearly don't look like good guys . .
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Kinda surprised so many people know so little about the situation. I expect it from say laserbeam, who's entire knowledge of World politics probably comes from playing Call of Duty 4, but having such a blanket of mass stupidity is shocking.


President Saakashvili is being accused by his own defense minister of mafia links and profiting from contraband.
He wasted 70% of the country's entire budget on the military, despite the county being extremely poor.
He flat out rigged his last election. He received 100% of the vote from several provinces.
Nearly every legitmate foreign observers during his last win stated the elections were rigged:

http://www.humanrights.ge/index.php?a=news&id=4300&lang=en
According to a number of International Observers Groups such as: International Expert Centre for Electoral Systems (Israel) headed by Dr. Alexander Tsinker and Ambassador Baruch Ben Neria, Independent American Center of Political Monitoring (US) headed by Ms. Lidia Lawson, Central-European Group for Political Monitoring (GB) headed by Alexander Derand (more than 80 independent observers that came to Georgia as early as December 24, 2004) Presidential Elections that took place on January 5, 2008 cannot be considered democratic, transparent, legitimate and in concurrence with European principles of democracy and norms of international law.

A number of independent NGOs in Georgia have monitored big violations on election day and prior to elections, which once again confirms that Mr. Saakashvili's election cannot be considered legal.
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So what we have is illegitimate President Saakashvili basically Kills scores of civilians, including Russian citizens & Russian peackeepers in a unprovoked sneak attack on South Ossetia, during the Olympic ceremony no less.
Russia has the gual to intervene & stop the shelling of a defensless region & every "mainstream" media & nutjob in America starts crying & calling Putin 'hitler'.

Duing this Saakashvili goes on to do multi interviews on American media stations & basically flat out lie without having any of the reporters question anything he says.


Good ole GAF.
 
L

laserbeam

Banned
FTWer said:
Kinda surprised so many people know so little about the situation. I expect it from say laserbeam, who's entire knowledge of World politics probably comes from playing Call of Duty 4, but having such a blanket of mass stupidity is shocking.


President Saakashvili is being accused by his own defense minister of mafia links and profiting from contraband.
He wasted 70% of the country's entire budget on the military, despite the county being extremely poor.
He flat out rigged his last election. He received 100% of the vote from several provinces.
Nearly every legitmate foreign observers during his last win stated the elections were rigged:

http://www.humanrights.ge/index.php?a=news&id=4300&lang=en


So what we have is illegitimate President Saakashvili basically Kills scores of civilians, including Russian citizens & Russian peackeepers in a unprovoked sneak attack on South Ossetia, during the Olympic ceremony no less.
Russia has the gual to intervene & stop the shelling of a defensless region & every "mainstream" media & nutjob in America starts crying & calling Putin 'hitler'.

Duing this Saakashvili goes on to do multi interviews on American media stations & basically flat out lie without having any of the reporters question anything he says.


Good ole GAF.
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Looks like you get your knowledge from RussiaToday. Call of Duty 4 would be a more credible source then them.

"The evil Georgians unprovoked have destroyed 98% of the city. Thousands are dead oh my god the blood is running in the streets." "GENOCIDE GENOCIDE GENOCIDE"

What a diffrent story when Independent media showed up. Even after both sides agreed to no more hostilities the Russians are raiding Georgian territory brining in people to loot,vandalize and destroy.
 
F

Fun Factor

Formerly FTWer
laserbeam said:
Looks like you get your knowledge from RussiaToday. Call of Duty 4 would be a more credible source then them.

"The evil Georgians unprovoked have destroyed 98% of the city. Thousands are dead oh my god the blood is running in the streets." "GENOCIDE GENOCIDE GENOCIDE"

What a diffrent story when Independent media showed up. Even after both sides agreed to no more hostilities the Russians are raiding Georgian territory brining in people to loot,vandalize and destroy.
Click to expand...


:lol :lol :lol
You're watching Fox news right now are you?
 
B

besada

Banned
FTWer said:
:lol :lol :lol
You're watching Fox news right now are you?
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It was AP reporters that said the "terrible massacre" apparently didn't happen. And while you posted an NGO from inside Georgia that talks about the terrible elections, they were certified by the actual international body who does such things, the OCSE.

You're welcome to your own opinion, but not your own facts.
 
Z

Zamorro

Member
FTWer said:
:lol :lol :lol
You're watching Fox news right now are you?
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I am watching CNN and they show tanks going up and down the road from Gori to Tbilisi, driving fleeing people before them. Irregular Ossetian militia are reported to burn down houses, execute people and kidnap Georgian women. The Russian troops keep their hands clean while the Ossetian militia do the dirty work.

In short, this is classic ethnic cleansing.

The guardian website shows that in Tskhinvali 44 people have been brought to the city morgue in the last week. That shows that the massacre of 2,000 people did not take place.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/aug/14/georgia.russia1
 
B

BlackMage

Banned
FlyinJ said:
Oh, wow, go figure:

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2008/08/13/international/i151424D21.DTL&tsp=1

I -NEVER- would have thought that us invading a sovereign nation unprovoked would open the doors internationally to any other country feeling they could do the same! Never in a million years.

You shove that fucking 9/11 justification in everyone's face for everything you do, and eventually it's going to backfire on you.
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because Russia wouldn't have done it otherwise, amirite
 
F

Fun Factor

Formerly FTWer
Zamorro said:
In short, this is classic ethnic cleansing.

The guardian website shows that in Tskhinvali 44 people have been brought to the city morgue in the last week. That shows that the massacre of 2,000 people did not take place.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/aug/14/georgia.russia1
Click to expand...



That link to the article is good find, of course they only checked one hospital in the capital which only has 20,000 people. Not the entire province or any of the other hospitals/make shift hospitals or people still not found.

Beside they never said it was an official death toll, just an approximation based on information from relatives.
"Slightly more than 1,400 people have died," Kokoity said, cited by Interfax.

"This information will be checked, but this is the approximate number, based on information from relatives."
 
E

Ether_Snake

安安安安安安安安安安安安安安安
speculawyer said:
This war really emphasizes how important an independent and free press is. Both sides have been making claims that the other side has been committing genocidal acts. It would really be nice to have lots of indepedent press around so they could tell us who is telling the truth and provide us with evidence.


Supposedly Condi Rice warned Georgia a few months ago not to fuck with Russia. Assuming that is true, that is some of the best advice she's given . . . and it shouldn't be surprising since she is an expert on Russia. It is too bad that one of the few times that she's actually given really good advice, it wasn't followed. :-(
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:lol :lol :lol :lol

She's an empty-headed puppet. She doesn't come up with what to say. And in the end she did fuck all, it's not her that advises Georgia on a regular basis. Don't give her credit, please.
 
T

Tamanon

Banned
“We were unhappy with the initial actions of the American officials, because they were perceived by the Russians as green lines, basically, but this one was very strong,” he said in a telephone interview after Mr. Bush’s statement in Washington.

Mr. Saakashvili interpreted the aid operation as a decision to defend Georgia’s ports and airports, though Bush administration and Pentagon officials quickly made it clear that would not be the case. A senior administration official said, “We won’t be protecting the airport or seaport, but we’ll certainly protect our assets if we need to.”
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http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/14/world/europe/14georgia.html?_r=1&hp=&pagewanted=all

This is starting to look even shadier......I think it's about to get worse.
 
Z

Zamorro

Member
FTWer said:
That link to the article is good find, of course they only checked one hospital in the capital which only has 20,000 people. Not the entire province or any of the other hospitals/make shift hospitals or people still not found.

Beside they never said it was an official death toll, just an approximation based on information from relatives.
"Slightly more than 1,400 people have died," Kokoity said, cited by Interfax.

"This information will be checked, but this is the approximate number, based on information from relatives."
Click to expand...
The Ossetians are the last people to rely on for objective information. They wanted the Russians, who were massing just outside their borders, to come to their aid and must have been willing to tell anything and do anything to accomplish this.

What better way to do this this than to stage an incident. You just have to look at American history to see how this works. See for example the Boston Massacre.

And that human rights organisation did not check the hospitals. They checked the city morgue, where all dead people normally end up in these situations. I presume they know where to look for information of that kind because they must have a lot of experience with previous conflicts.
 
K

Kabouter

Member
FTWer said:
FYI if anyone wants even a small shred of journalism & non-biased coverage, you might want to skip CNN & MSNC etc...

These sites are pretty much the closest you can get to decent fair coverage without looking into smaller independent outlets:

http://www.cbc.ca/
http://news.bbc.co.uk
http://www.guardian.co.uk
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I've found the BBC to be pretty quick to jump to conclusions, and pretty fast in siding with Georgia. Tbh, Reuters is the only reliable source I've found throughout this whole deal. Just reporting the facts.
 
E

E-phonk

Banned
Sorry if OLD

Georgia.jpg


Again, sorry if OLD
 
U

Uncle

Member
http://english.aljazeera.net/news/europe/2008/08/200881491113664110.html

Explosions have been heard in Gori after the planned handover of the Georgian town degenerated into a tense standoff between Russian and Georgian troops.

The apparent collapse of the planned withdrawal came as Dmitry Medvedev, Russia's president, pledged his continued support to the breakaway regions of South Ossetia and Abkhazia.

Talks between Russian and Georgian military commanders ended when Russian-backed South Ossetian forces demanded that they be allowed to police the town, sources told Al Jazeera.

"That was not acceptable to the Georgians who left the discussion," Al Jazeera's Alan Fisher, reporting from the outskirts of Gori, said.

"After they left, they sent down a team of Georgian special forces soldiers to discuss with the Russians access to the town.

"At that point the Russians, fearing some sort of assault was under way moved their tanks from the centre of town to the edge of the town."

A few minutes later the explosions, possibly from artillery fire, could be heard on the edge of Gori.
 
R

Rur0ni

Member
Medvedev: We will back any decision of Abkhazian and Ossetian people

“I would like you to know and tell your people: Russia’s position hasn’t changed. We will support any decision on the status of Abkhazia and South Ossetia made by their people in accordance with the UN Charter and other international conventions. We will not only support such decisions, we will guarantee their enforcement.”
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http://www.russiatoday.com/news/news/28995

Russian tanks aiding Gori withdrawal, Georgia says

Russian tanks have returned to the Georgian city of Gori, but only to help with the pullout of their forces, Georgia's Interior Ministry says. Explosions heard in Gori today were Russian troops clearing unexploded ordnance, the Interior Ministry said.
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http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/08/14/georgia.russia.war/index.html

That would explain what you just posted Uncle.
 
S

SRG01

Member
Kapsama said:
I don't see what you being from Canada has to do with that.
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Well I mean, for me, CBC is pretty much the only source of news up here aside from Globemedia and Global (two different companies, surprisingly!). If CBC is usually better than those two, imagine what it's like if the CBC coverage of the conflict was crap.
 
S

scorcho

testicles on a cold fall morning
that's what happens when we have a Russia/Georgian policy that essentially centered around antagonizing and bluffing.
 
T

Tamanon

Banned
Uncle said:
http://english.aljazeera.net/news/europe/2008/08/200881491113664110.html

Explosions have been heard in Gori after the planned handover of the Georgian town degenerated into a tense standoff between Russian and Georgian troops.

The apparent collapse of the planned withdrawal came as Dmitry Medvedev, Russia's president, pledged his continued support to the breakaway regions of South Ossetia and Abkhazia.

Talks between Russian and Georgian military commanders ended when Russian-backed South Ossetian forces demanded that they be allowed to police the town, sources told Al Jazeera.

"That was not acceptable to the Georgians who left the discussion," Al Jazeera's Alan Fisher, reporting from the outskirts of Gori, said.

"After they left, they sent down a team of Georgian special forces soldiers to discuss with the Russians access to the town.

"At that point the Russians, fearing some sort of assault was under way moved their tanks from the centre of town to the edge of the town."

A few minutes later the explosions, possibly from artillery fire, could be heard on the edge of Gori.
Click to expand...

:lol They sent a team of special forces to "discuss", right.
 
L

laserbeam

Banned
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7561926.stm
Its having effects outside of georgia now. US and Poland came to agreememnt on the Missile Defense plan for the Country.

Mr Tusk said Washington had agreed to meet Warsaw's main demands in exchange for hosting the 10 interceptor missiles in a former military base near Poland's Baltic Sea coast.

In return, the US has agreed to help modernise the Polish armed forces and locate Patriot missiles and a garrison of US servicemen in Poland to beef up its air defences, Mr Tusk said.
 
X

xabre

Banned
besada said:
Nope, no negative repercussions for Russia at all.
Click to expand...

Amazing. Could the timing possibly be any worse?

I'd say Iran needs some more S-300's and Sunburns sent her way courtesy of Russia.
 
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