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[Malio]

These all seem like reasonable requests.

Too bad the inclusion of these ideas isn't going to sell more video games. No one (not many) is going to bother.

 

[udivision]

People who don't make games shouldn't be telling the people who make games how to make games, no matter the intent.

If she wants to see a difference, she should get her hands dirty and make the difference herself, lead by example.

Let's close down GAF I guess.

 

[Peltz]

I still don't get what is so controversial about her... or even her "approach". Nor do I get the hate directed towards her.

 

[Orniletter]

Her list is not bad at all.

 

[Rentahamster]

"She's done this through a series of online videos for her non-profit, Feminist Frequency, and in lectures at conferences and even at some game studios."

Didn't she take half of the KS funds as salary and release only 2 episodes in 2014? What is the concept of profit being rejected here? Is this official or Stephen Totilo's input? Genuine question, I had no idea this was considered "non-profit".

"non-profit" doesn't mean you don't make any money from this. All "non-profit" organizations pay their staff in some way or another.

 

[RelentlessRolento]

realistic and good list.

The more I play games like Monster Monpiece and Valhalla Knights 3, the more I agree with her.

 

[TheSlySoul]

I don't understand the bolded, does she mean to not have ass shots in cutscenes?

I guess she does not like fan service.
Honestly I am ok with that if they also show sexy men. Fan service both sides (Dragon's Crown for example).

 

[User 73706]

People who don't make games shouldn't be telling the people who make games how to make games, no matter the intent.

If she wants to see a difference, she should get her hands dirty and make the difference herself, lead by example.

RIP reviews and constructive criticism for literally every corporeal form of media on the planet

 

[Easy_D]

That second last bullet. I thought it was just me being perverted but I always did think some female pain sounds had a weird sexual tone to them.

People who don't make games shouldn't be telling the people who make games how to make games, no matter the intent.

If she wants to see a difference, she should get her hands dirty and make the difference herself, lead by example.

"People who don't make movies shouldn't be telling the people who make films how to make films, no matter the intent"

And then we get the "bu bu thats different"

Different how?

 

[djplaeskool]

I don't understand the bolded, does she mean to not have ass shots in cutscenes?

It's a fairly common practice.
It's also why some of the things Konami has done in past MGS games in terms of gratuitous Snake shots are hilarious

 

[Fox Mulder]

The bullet point list is reasonable.

 

[RedRooster]

Are you fucking serious? So no more game reviews, no movie critics, nothing? That's a... peculiar way of looking at things.

There's a difference between being a critic and demanding change by focusing your existence on changing someone else.

 

[bluexy]

For everyone that wants to skip through Totilo's labyrinthine ramblings, here's the list.

1. Avoid the Smurfette principle (don't have just one female character in an ensemble cast, let alone one whose personality is more or less "girl" or "woman.")
2. "Lingerie is not armor" (Dress female characters as something other than sex objects.)
3. Have female characters of various body types
4. Don't over-emphasize female characters' rear ends, not any more than you would the average male character's.
5. Include more female characters of color.
6. Animate female characters to move the way normal women, soldiers or athletes would move.
7. Record female character voiceover so that pain sounds painful, not orgasmic
8. Include female enemies, but don't sexualize those enemies

Could basically turn this list into a sort of metric. There are some ambiguities that might make that challenging though. Number 8's "Don't sexualize those enemies" is excessive to her point. Otherwise I like this as a way of saying: what's important is diversity and fairness.

 

[joe2187]

How many of those changes she's asking for are most often more likely to be put in a game because of "focus testing" and "Marketing".

I got no issues with the list, but it may be hard to implement if publishers sometimes refuse ideas because they believe it wont sell.

Didnt Dontnod have issues like this?

 

[Mesoian]

Awesome (and well deserved) shout-out for Never Alone:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Never Alone created by a team consisting mostly of native Alaskans? I'm all for different cultural experiences in games, but people have to be willing to want to tell those stories. Papa Y Yo wouldn't have had the emotional weight it did if the creator didn't have the background of growing up in an abusive south american home. I don't know if that's something that we can call for change about, rather than supporting and encouraging people with those stories to step forward and make something different and unusual.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

Shout-out to Dark Souls for their armour designs! <3

 

[sir_roflcopter]

That second last bullet. I thought it was just me being perverted but I always did think some female pain sounds had a weird sexual tone to them.

You ever watched a tennis game?

 

[SolidSnakeUS]

R.I.P. Bayonetta

I think that point is a little weird. Why can't a woman have a nice butt? I'm not saying to throw it in your face at all times or whatnot, but I don't think it's wrong to have a nice figure. You can still have a nice, noticeable figure without being sexual.

 

[Alienous]

Shorter version, if you just want the list of the list of what she says are "Eight things developers can do to make games less shitty for women", paraphrased from my notes... not that a lot of this pertain to action games and probably make more sense if you're thinking about first and third-person shooters, the Arkham games, and stuff like that:

Avoid the Smurfette principle (don't have just one female character in an ensemble cast, let alone one whose personality is more or less "girl" or "woman.")
"Lingerie is not armor" (Dress female characters as something other than sex objects.)
Have female characters of various body types
Don't over-emphasize female characters' rear ends, not any more than you would the average male character's.
Include more female characters of color.
Animate female characters to move the way normal women, soldiers or athletes would move.
Record female character voiceover so that pain sounds painful, not orgasmic
Include female enemies, but don't sexualize those enemies

7 out of 8 aint bad, Kojima. It aint bad at all.

 

[Doc Holliday]

I wonder, has there ever been a list like this for movies or music?

This reminds me more of the comics code type of list to be honest.

PS I'm not an anti feminist ahole. I just get weird when I hear "You should, and Shouldn't do this" When it comes to artistic endeavors and I do consider games a collaborative art form.

 

[Finale Fireworker]

I respect her right to say whatever she wants, and I hate how gamers have attacked. i even agree with her on some things That said, her list comes across as a bit extreme. Instead of suggestions she comes across as demands.

So what if she's demanding? People who campaign for progress always demand it. They don't make "suggestions."

What she is asking for isn't censorship, and she isn't criticizing artists, she is asking artists to create different and healthier depictions of women.

 

[Ganzlinger]

Total posted the eight things mentioned in the talk in the comments:

Totally agree with her.

 

[Eppy Thatcher]

That list seems so obvious like... yes.. naturally you don't just have one Ivy dressed character to orgasm when she is stabbed and be saved by the guy.

But people buy those games. In droves i suppose...

So - are we gonna end up having the 'is it ok to make a woman move differently because her body is different or is that bad too?" Talk in here? cause it's one that i'm keenly interested to hear a female perspective on. Like... should everyone move/animate/function exactly the same as to not be exclusionary to a certain group? I dunno i'm lost...

At the very least there werent any shit house fuckers cat calling or threatening her at this place. Must be nice for her when she shows up to a function like this and people are civil. Not even overwhelmingly positive or completely on her side... just not evil douchebags.

 

[Buzzati]

I think we need a few more posts explaining what a non-profit is.

 

[BennyBlanco]

R.I.P. Bayonetta

Pretty decent list, but I don't see the big deal with this one. There is nothing wrong with making characters look attractive - especially in fantasy universes.

I don't know. I don't think bayonetta would've suffered as a game if they made her walk look like less of a runway strut and took out the ass shots.

 

[soultron]

These all seem like reasonable requests.

Too bad the inclusion of these ideas isn't going to sell more video games. No one (not many) is going to bother.

If I could play a version of Bayonetta that I didn't find embarrassing to be caught dead interacting with, I'd certainly buy it.

Disclaimer: This is my view. I'm not saying that by enjoying or not taking issue with Bayonetta that there's something wrong with you/anyone.

I find the shortened bullet list to be a totally sensible request.

 

[Mesoian]

7 out of 8 aint bad, Kojima. It aint bad at all.

Well...6. MGS4 and 5 have some skimpy outfits being toted as gear that's sufficient for armed combat.

If I could play a version of Bayonetta that I didn't find embarrassing to be caught dead interacting with, I'd certainly buy it.

Disclaimer: This is my view. I'm not saying that by enjoying or not taking issue with Bayonetta that there's something wrong with you/anyone.

Then you are looking for DMC4.

 

[lazygecko]

The changes she suggests themselves are pretty sensisble. More realistic animations and less sexual grubting during combat for women aren't going to earth shattering differences, but work out well for the way women in games are presented.

Shoehorned catwalk movement and other "girly" animations on female warrior/soldier characters always makes me cringe. Japan especially turns the dial to 11. And the damn hentai moans makes me turn off the sound.

 

[Deified Data]

I agree with every one of these points.

Of particular note is the "orgasmic pain" point, you don't see this mentioned often. I was playing Dawn of War the other day and find it a little odd that Sisters of Battle have figuratively explosive orgasms when they're literally exploding into gobbets of meat. It sounds ridiculous.

Shout-out to Dark Souls for their armour designs! <3

I love how masculine armor looks masculine on everyone and feminine armor looks feminine on everyone.

 

[Tom_Cody]

The bullet points seem overwhelmingly reasonable.

 

[LurkerPrime]

The "no sexy walk" rule is something Bioware needs to learn ASAP for Dragon Age. The hip sway female characters have when moving is downright offputting with how pandering it is.

The points are agreeable, but entail change for both genders instad of just women (though, because there's less women portrayed in general there's clearly a lot more work to be done on that side).

 

[HabeeNo]

I agree with her bullet points

 

[ArchedThunder]

Record female character voiceover so that pain sounds painful, not orgasmic

Huh? Is this actually a big problem? I've not heard a lot of games where the female screams and such sound orgasmic compared to the male ones. The only time I've ever heard someone say that a death sounded orgasmic in a game was Dark Souls, and they were talking about the male sounds.

 

[jchap]

More metroid games

 

[Vermillion]

RIP Shantae?

---

Reasonable requests, though.

 

[besada]

I think we need a few more posts explaining what a non-profit is.

Maybe just one at the top of every page.

 

[Easy_D]

You ever watched a tennis game?

Only that world record one that lasted for 3 days. That shit was intense.

 

[Dicer]

Here's the list:

Avoid the Smurfette principle (don't have just one female character in an ensemble cast, let alone one whose personality is more or less "girl" or "woman.")
"Lingerie is not armor" (Dress female characters as something other than sex objects.)
Have female characters of various body types
Don't over-emphasize female characters' rear ends, not any more than you would the average male character's.
Include more female characters of color.
Animate female characters to move the way normal women, soldiers or athletes would move.
Record female character voiceover so that pain sounds painful, not orgasmic
Include female enemies, but don't sexualize those enemies

Very reasonable.

For the armor thing see TERA, it can work both ways...but in general I generally agree

The Animation aspect, it's a fantasy(non real setting) then usually animations are over the top for both sexes.

Some female enemies are sexy nature, using that very aspect against the player.

Otherwise, a reasonable list, but it also doesn't mean she get's to write the guide book to game design.

 

[Aquamarine]

Avoid the Smurfette principle (don't have just one female character in an ensemble cast, let alone one whose personality is more or less "girl" or "woman.")

I wholeheartedly agree here. I'm not a fan of story-baed games with one smurfette and complete sausage fests otherwise.

 

[Deleted member 126221]

There's a difference between being a critic and demanding change by focusing your existence on changing someone else.

What is that even supposed to mean?

 

[Astral/H3X]

I respect her right to say whatever she wants, and I hate how gamers have attacked her. i even agree with her on some things That said, her list comes across as a bit extreme. Instead of suggestions she comes across as giving demands.



I'm sorry, but if I'm a character designer and I'm paid for my views and my perspective I draw what I want within reason. This quote sounds very absolutist imo.

And I always side with the artists on this stuff, if you don't like don't buy it.

my 2 cents

Well.... On one hand, yeah, there is always going to be a market for people who want the scantily clad armors, so totally removing them as per demand would leave them out in the cold, at the same time I think she needs something a little more forceful than "pretty please".

I'd like to see about 50/50. I enjoy my eye candy but it is pretty damn obnoxious right now.

 

[User 73706]

I still don't get what is so controversial about her... or even her "approach". Nor do I get the hate directed towards her.

She's a woman with thoughts of her own looking to get women equal levels of respect and representation in an industry best known for shouting the N-word over Xbox Live and not buying games if they don't have a buzzcut white dude with a gun on the cover.

 

[ShooterMcGavin]

I don't know. I don't think bayonetta would've suffered as a game if they made her walk look like less of a runway strut and took out the ass shots.

To me, there's no reason to be ashamed about sexuality. If your confident, go ahead and strut it - doesn't matter what your gender / race is.

 

[Flying Toaster]

Very reasonable list. Especially to start a decent conversation about the trends we see in video games currently.

 

[Bomber Bob]

RIP whatever that Brianna Wu game is called

 

[DrkSage]

:
Avoid the Smurfette principle (don't have just one female character in an ensemble cast, let alone one whose personality is more or less "girl" or "woman.")
"Lingerie is not armor" (Dress female characters as something other than sex objects.)
Have female characters of various body types
Don't over-emphasize female characters' rear ends, not any more than you would the average male character's.
Include more female characters of color.
Animate female characters to move the way normal women, soldiers or athletes would move.
Record female character voiceover so that pain sounds painful, not orgasmic
Include female enemies, but don't sexualize those enemies

I'm Ok with this! This all sounds good.

 

[fernoca]

Good points overall. Sad that all are kinda obvious and should be the norm, yet here we are in 2015...

At the same time, she needs to get more into games. Maybe things have changed recently but she had admitted in the past to not liking games in general. It would be good if she at least started to get more into it, despite all the other issues.

 

[soultron]

Then you are looking for DMC4.

I've played DMC4. Awful character designs and costuming, not limited to Gloria.

 

[hydrophilic attack]

I think those are pretty great suggestions.

So funny how gamergate was painting her as out to destroy gaming. I don't see how these suggestions are controversial at all.

 

[Alienous]

Well...6. MGS4 and 5 have some skimpy outfits being toted as gear that's sufficient for armed combat.

I suppose.