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[User 73706]

But I like sexual portrayals of women... I like women and sex, and then both of those things together

Is Anita saying that what I want is wrong?

If that's all you want? Yeah, it's absolutely wrong.

 

[BennyBlanco]

But I like sexual portrayals of women... I like women and sex, and then both of those things together

Is Anita saying that what I want is wrong?

She didn't say "don't include attractive women in your game".

 

[Otakumegane]

The animation of female characters like actual females is key.

Games do not get that right.

 

[geordiemp]

People who don't make games shouldn't be telling the people who make games how to make games, no matter the intent.

Agree, people can have such views, opinions, and everyone should be respected.

However, in a free society leave content creators alone to create what they want in film and game.

I don't like people dictating what we should watch in game or film.

I don't want censorship in my games.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

Even 4 went a bit askew with Naomi Hunter's conspicuously plunging.

The Beauty and the Beast unit and their

Spoiler

photo shoot scenes

also blew some of these rules out of the water in the most dramatic fashion imaginable.

Yeah the photo shoot scenes were....weird. But I guess a psychotic breakdown of an enemy would be pretty weird.

Still, Kojima is leading the fight in equality!

 

[powerdrain]

These are very simple and fair demands and it's such a shame we don't see so many of these things implemented not only in games but other mediums too. There is a time and a place for some tropes like sexualisation, say if a character is a "seductress", but you can't take a character in power seriously if she's spouting innuendos constantly for a male audience and walking around in a boob tube and some panties.

I really hope game devs are listening and take these easy to implement points to mind when designing new games. Some of it can even be applied to male characters if it helps bridge the gap into the change. I'd love to see more characters, male or female, with different body types and races, without pandering to cheap gags or stereotypes.

 

[rexor0717]

Those bullet points seem completely reasonable.

 

[Enilced2]

Beyond something like The Last of Us?

I mean, it's certainly not as bad as it could be.

Last of Us was good and I think the Order was as almost as good.

 

[The Lamonster]

Its more for the industry to look at why they make characters in a certsin way. Basically, the design elements aren't bad it's that they're the default without question.

Thank you. This makes sense to me and answers my question

 

[besada]

I just have a problem with that quote. To me that's like someone demanding that a musician not sing about a subject, whatever it is. Try to divorce your self from the subject and see the overall idea of making demands of artists.

That's all I'm saying.

Maybe try reading the article and looking at the context, rather than a list of bullet points. She's specifically discussing things she believes will make games more approachable to women. She's not making demands, she's making suggestions in a specific context.

 

[sir_roflcopter]

Agree, people can have such views, opinions, and everyone should be respected.

However, in a free society leave content creators alone to create what they want in film and game.

I don't like people dictating what we should watch in game or film.

I don't want censorship in my games.

Gotta have room open for critique of the games. Creators are really not under any obligation to follow said critique tho.

 

[Mesoian]

The animation of female characters like actual females is key.

Games do not get that right.

I would love for pretty much all female skeletons and animations to be thrown away and for everyone to start from scratch in the mo-cap studio. So few games get it right.

That being said, there's nothing wrong with posing in a specific fashion.

 

[Coconut]

I wish we heard more from women who are actually in the field.

So doing videos about video games makes you not in the field?

 

[Divvy]

I don't think these guidelines prevent a game like Bayonetta from existing as individual games where sexualization occurs is not inherently a problem. The major problem is this trend existing across the large swathe of games available today. In an industry where most games are fair and friendly to all genders games with purposeful sexualization can still exist so long as they are outliers and not the norm.

 

[Alienous]

Would you rather her pout? Be mild mannered?

Seriously, what's wrong with legitimate demands? It's not like they're threats. They're reasonable requests.

Should Rosa Parks have "suggested" that she didn't want to move to the back of the bus?

Hmm.

 

[JayhawkerStL]

People who don't make games shouldn't be telling the people who make games how to make games, no matter the intent.

If she wants to see a difference, she should get her hands dirty and make the difference herself, lead by example.

Can we imagine if that principle was applied to NeoGaf and any other forum where gamers talk about what they want in their games?

 

[Nappuccino]

Calm down dude. I'm looking this as an artistic freedom issue.

Are women overly sexualized in games? Yes
Should we have more women in games? Absolutely
Does Anita have valid points? Yes
Should she be free to say what she want? Not even a question

I just have a problem with that quote. To me that's like someone demanding that a musician not sing about a subject, whatever it is. Try to divorce your self from the subject and see the overall idea of making demands of artists.

That's all I'm saying.

I think that the average games out there should take note and employ what she's suggesting. But I don't think these have to be hard and fast rules. As some have mentioned, a certain character might use her sexuality to her advantage or even just be proud of it--as long as that character is treated with respect and understanding there's nothing really wrong with that.

 

[Gestault]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Never Alone created by a team consisting mostly of native Alaskans? I'm all for different cultural experiences in games, but people have to be willing to want to tell those stories. Papa Y Yo wouldn't have had the emotional weight it did if the creator didn't have the background of growing up in an abusive south american home. I don't know if that's something that we can call for change about, rather than supporting and encouraging people with those stories to step forward and make something different and unusual.

That's one downside to the tone/nature of some points she raises: I do think her commentary sometimes smudges the line between being a call for more voices and criticism of existing voices, in a way that compromises the message. More a rhetorical misstep than a conceptual failure. It's implicit that the conversation itself would act as a signal to potential creators that there's an audience that would want to hear their stories. Highlighting works that achieve her ideal is exactly what people have asked for from her. Heck, it's exactly what I've asked for.

 

[Mesoian]

Agree, people can have such views, opinions, and everyone should be respected.

However, in a free society leave content creators alone to create what they want in film and game.

I don't like people dictating what we should watch in game or film.

I don't want censorship in my games.

Don't worry, the games you like aren't going anywhere.

 

[sir_roflcopter]

Anyone else feel like the Order was a step in the right direction dor portraying female characters in this regard ?

if only the devs could refrain from running their mouths...

Also, if it bombs in terms of sales (not making a pronouncement either way) then studios will be less likely to take those steps in future.

 

[Freeman]

What games are you playing?

Nothing out of the ordinary, the last game I played Beyond Two Souls for example had it's fair share of woman moaning and screaming.

 

[Haines]

Developers should be able to make the game they want to. If you don't like what they do don't buy the game.

You won't see me buying things like DOA stuff but if they want to make it that's there choice and the gamers choice to play it.

 

[User 73706]

Would you rather her pout? Be mild mannered?

Seriously, what's wrong with legitimate demands? It's not like they're threats. They're reasonable requests that devs to which devs should strive to adhere.

Should Rosa Parks have "suggested" that she didn't want to move to the back of the bus?

That's the point he's making, yeah.

He'd rather Anita make her point in a way he'd be allowed to reject outright rather than her make a conctete statement so that he wouldn't have to worry about those pesky women always asking for more than they deserve.

 

[BennyBlanco]

Agree, people can have such views, opinions, and everyone should be respected.

However, in a free society leave content creators alone to create what they want in film and game.

I don't like people dictating what we should watch in game or film.

I don't want censorship in my games.

It's just her (pretty reasonable) opinion. It's not like this is a list of demands being issued from a position of authority.

Bottom line is, publishers are going to make games that make them the most money.

 

[soultron]

Maybe try reading the article and looking at the context, rather than a list of bullet points. She's specifically discussing things she believes will make games more approachable to women. She's not making demands, she's making suggestions in a specific context.

To that end, it's not like she's asking for games that don't meet her suggested criteria cease to exist or be outlawed. She's just asking for more games to be made that are more inclusive. I think it's more of an additive process that will lead to a variety of experiences, rather than the extinction of one in favour of another.

 

[joe2187]

The animation of female characters like actual females is key.

Games do not get that right.

And varied models for female NPCs and characters.

It annoys the shit out of me that nearly every single female character in some games is just a palette swap of the same base model. MK9 and Injustice for example is an atrocious offender of this.

Its very distracting when every female character you see is literally copy paste.

 

[wickfut]

The bolded is good , don't care about the rest

Yup. I can't wait to stab fat women from all across the globe in counter strike. Or do you think then it'll be portraying violence against women?

 

[Kriken]

Here's the list:

Avoid the Smurfette principle (don't have just one female character in an ensemble cast, let alone one whose personality is more or less "girl" or "woman.")
"Lingerie is not armor" (Dress female characters as something other than sex objects.)
Have female characters of various body types
Don't over-emphasize female characters' rear ends, not any more than you would the average male character's.
Include more female characters of color.
Animate female characters to move the way normal women, soldiers or athletes would move.
Record female character voiceover so that pain sounds painful, not orgasmic
Include female enemies, but don't sexualize those enemies

Very reasonable.

Overall, these are reasonable requests

 

[Morrigan Stark]

I don't like people dictating what we should watch in game or film.

She's not dictating. She's making suggestions and offering constructive feedback.

I don't want censorship

It's not censorship.

in my games.

Your games?

 

[User 73706]

Yup. I can't wait to stab fat women from all across the globe in counter strike. Or do you think then it'll be portraying violence against women?

jesus

 

[Doc Holliday]

This was a fair reply and I apologize for my strong reaction. I'll edit the post to better reflect the actual nature of your post.

No worries

i can see how people can get worked up about this.

 

[Mesoian]

So doing videos about video games makes you not in the field?

I mean, it doesn't.

The point is, that doesn't matter. Your audience isn't in the field.

 

[Patapwn]

She didn't say "don't include attractive women in your game".

But she's saying no lingerie armor and that is where I draw the line

 

[Moff]

But I like sexual portrayals of women... I like women and sex, and then both of those things together

Is Anita saying that what I want is wrong?

I haven't read anything from her about witcher 2, but I usually agree with her on her big points and I think witcher 2 is a great way to show attractive women and sex, witthout sexualizing them all the time.
let's have a look at triss: she wears non revealing armor most of the time, but you see her nude in the romantic/sex scenes. that's absolutely no problem. she is also a real character and not just a smurfette.

what's dumb is if you want to look at girls in sexy armor all the time, yeah, that would be wrong

 

[Garrett Hawke]

This article was so long and her ideas were buried deep within the walls of its text...

The bulleted list she wants is actually not terrible.

"Actually not terrible?" It's perfect.

I'm really proud of her. Regardless of the fact that not everything she says is right (seeing as it's her OPINION), the fact that she's become such a loud voice and has essentially become a vanguard for the equality movement in games is awesome.

 

[sir_roflcopter]

It's just her (pretty reasonable) opinion. It's not like this is a list of demands being issued from a position of authority.

Bottom line is, publishers are going to make games that make them the most money.

I think you underestimate her audience.

 

[Coconut]

Anyone else feel like the Order was a step in the right direction dor portraying female characters in this regard ?

She is there as a love interest though.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

Yup. I can't wait to stab fat women from all across the globe in counter strike. Or do you think then it'll be portraying violence against women?

And.... sigh, didn't even need a different thread

 

[Betty]

Until you break their suits off, and then they look like this.

The Beauty and the Beast stuff was dumb anyway.

That outfit makes sense if they're to fit inside those mechanized outfits.

It's also worth noting that all the bosses, Liquid's entire elite army, the leader of rat partrol, the leader of the european resistance movement and the commander on board the missouri are all female.

It's kinda stunning how many roles women played in that game, and how many were top authority figures or powerful.

 

[Roto13]

What alternate universe do some people in this thread come from where Anita Sarkeesian is not doing actual work and making a difference? What she's doing is more productive and more important than just making a single game with a half-decent female character in it would be.

 

[ARealGamer]

You know if we ignore her she will just go away.

 

[Muscle Wizard]

Honestly, wish she started her series with this.

 

[Garrett Hawke]

I haven't read anything from her about witcher 2, but I usually agree with her on her big points and I think witcher 2 is a great way to show attractive women and sex, witthout sexualizing them all the time.
let's have a look at triss: she wars non revealing armor most of the time, but you see her nude in the romantic/sex scenes. that's absolutely no problem. she is also a real character and not just a smurfette.

what's dumb is if you want to look at girls in sexy armor all the time, yeah, that would be wrong

I would disagree, especially after seeing the ESRB's rating of TW3. According to that, you see multiple female character's breasts/ass, but it doesn't mention male nudity at all. That's bad, because it's sexualising the women in a way that it's not sexualising the men.

Also, didn't you collect nudie pics in TW1?

 

[GillianSeed79]

A big yes to No. 7 by the way. One of the reasons I usually play games with headphones on is that I'm worried people will think I'm watching pron or something if there's a female character in it and she's receiving damage. It's dumb. I've never heard a woman in real life sound like she's on the verge of having an orgasm when she is in pain.

 

[pinkurocket]

Characters like Bayonetta take extremes and use it well. Even if Anita herself seems to dislike the portrayal of Bayonetta. Many male character show off the way she does, though rather than a focus on her butt, there is a focus on muscles and manliness. Well, characters like Snake always have a defined butt that -if it were a female- would get called out for being objectified.

I don't think sexual themes or undertones are a bad thing. I think it's great I can have a character wear armor that leaves them 80% nude. It's a game, it doesn't need to take itself serious. However I want it for both male and female characters. Like some recent RPGs have been doing, which is glorious. I want equality in games, but I don't need everything to be politically correct. A game has the freedom to play with extremes and portray a different reality. It just has to make sense in the context of the setting.

 

[BennyBlanco]

But she's saying no lingerie armor and that is where I draw the line

To me, lingerie armor has always been dumb. It's nonsensical pandering. But also it's not going away because Anita Sarkeesian said so.

 

[Kinyou]

Anyone else feel like the Order was a step in the right direction dor portraying female characters in this regard ?

Are there more female team members than just the one? If not then she pretty much represents the "smurfette principle"

Until you break their suits off, and then they look like this.

The Beauty and the Beast stuff was dumb anyway.

That's not touted as their combat gear though

And.... sigh, didn't even need a different thread

Just because Anita doesn't have a problem with it doesn't mean that other people wont be outraged when Joel crushes skulls of female bandits.

 

[wickfut]

And.... sigh, didn't even need a different thread

good.

 

[Saint of Killers]

She is there as a love interest though.

Not by the time we get to the business end of the game she isn't.

 

[LurkerPrime]

But I like sexual portrayals of women... I like women and sex, and then both of those things together

Is Anita saying that what I want is wrong?

In this new age, those sorts of games will still exist. It just won't be in a majority of games.

Let's take Mass Effect 2 for example. It has pandering shots of Miranda that are incredibly out of place, as it happens whether or not the romance (and thus Shepherd's presumed interest) is established. Then there's Jack, a lady you rescue from prison. She never wears a shirt, jacket or anything at all above the waist, apparently content to keep her prison outfit. Forever. There's no reason to have these elements in Mass Effect 2, which is by all accounts a serious Space Opera/Action game; such elements exist solely for marketing purposes to the detriment of the game, its narrative, and its world.

It's about time for video games to put their big kid pants on and decide what they want to be; panderous niche or multifaceted industry.