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[Moff]

I would disagree, especially after seeing the ESRB's rating of TW3. According to that, you see multiple female character's breasts/ass, but it doesn't mention male nudity at all. That's bad, because it's sexualising the women in a way that it's not sexualising the men.

Also, didn't you collect nudie pics in TW1?

I was talking very specifically about triss in witcher 2

 

[The Technomancer]

Avoid the Smurfette principle (don't have just one female character in an ensemble cast, let alone one whose personality is more or less "girl" or "woman.")
"Lingerie is not armor" (Dress female characters as something other than sex objects.)
Have female characters of various body types
Don't over-emphasize female characters' rear ends, not any more than you would the average male character's.
Include more female characters of color.
Animate female characters to move the way normal women, soldiers or athletes would move.
Record female character voiceover so that pain sounds painful, not orgasmic
Include female enemies, but don't sexualize those enemies

None of this should be controversial in the slightest. I can maybe see some people arguing against the armor principle, but everything else?

 

[WordsintheWater]

Her list is good and I must say that The Order: 1886 does a decent job of conveying that list. I know there are more examples of developers doing it right, but this is the most recent one.

 

[User 73706]

You know if we ignore her she will just go away.

You just posted about it, didn't you? Anita and more broadly a push for equal female representation in gaming isn't going away any time soon.

 

[staticneuron]

This article was so long and her ideas were buried deep within the walls of its text...

The bulleted list she wants is actually not terrible.

Here's the list:

Avoid the Smurfette principle (don't have just one female character in an ensemble cast, let alone one whose personality is more or less "girl" or "woman.")
"Lingerie is not armor" (Dress female characters as something other than sex objects.)
Have female characters of various body types
Don't over-emphasize female characters' rear ends, not any more than you would the average male character's.
Include more female characters of color.
Animate female characters to move the way normal women, soldiers or athletes would move.
Record female character voiceover so that pain sounds painful, not orgasmic
Include female enemies, but don't sexualize those enemies

Very reasonable.

Agreed.

 

[Oersted]

Agree, people can have such views, opinions, and everyone should be respected.

However, in a free society leave content creators alone to create what they want in film and game.

I don't like people dictating what we should watch in game or film.

I don't want censorship in my games.

Criticism is not censorship. What you demand is censorship of criticism. Realize the irony or are you just trolling the one you quoted?

 

[XANDER CAGE]

I think the bullet points are entirely reasonable - particularly the stuff about eliminating token "smurfette" character design and better representation - although I'm less enthusiastic about the "don't emphasize sexuality/don't exaggerate animation" ones. There are definitely kinds of characters, scenes, and styles where stuff like that would be entirely appropriate, it's just that most games lean on them entirely too much or do a really poor job with it. That, and we basically only see women in that light, while male sexpot characters are much rarer. Some balance would be nice.

I get the feeling she's mostly talking about "realistic" games anyway, but I feel like it bears mentioning that animating everything like it would be in real life would lead to a lot of boring looking games. I think there's plenty of room for games like SkullGirls and Shantae and Bayonetta and whatnot; we just maybe need some more El Shaddais and Coming Out On Tops to make sure exaggerated female sexualities aren't the only thing around. Making sure sexualities don't become white noise.

Or more Jojos games!

 

[Morrigan Stark]

What alternate universe do some people in this thread come from where Anita Sarkeesian is not doing actual work and making a difference? What she's doing is more productive and more important than just making a single game with a half-decent female character in it would be.

Of course, and I suspect they know that, it's just the typical silencing attempts.

You know if we ignore her she will just go away.

Why would I want that?

 

[Floridian]

You know if we ignore her she will just go away.

Her points are fair. Why should she go away?

 

[Draxal]

I would disagree, especially after seeing the ESRB's rating of TW3. According to that, you see multiple female character's breasts/ass, but it doesn't mention male nudity at all. That's bad, because it's sexualising the women in a way that it's not sexualising the men.

Also, didn't you collect nudie pics in TW1?

Yes in TW1. The witcher in general is pretty much the ultimate male power fantasy though,, it's very um .... limited in scope.

You pretty much see Geralt's nude body though in TW2/TW1 as well OTOH.

 

[The Technomancer]

Suggesting the industry as a whole make some changes is not saying that every single game must adhere to a standard. Its all about shifting frequency

 

[Peltz]

It's just her (pretty reasonable) opinion. It's not like this is a list of demands being issued from a position of authority.

Bottom line is, publishers are going to make games that make them the most money.

I think she's viewed by many, myself included, as an authority on this topic.

 

[besada]

To that end, it's not like she's asking for games that don't meet her suggested criteria cease to exist or be outlawed. She's just asking for more games to be made that are more inclusive. I think it's more of an additive process that will lead to a variety of experiences, rather than the extinction of one in favour of another.

Yes. A lot of people are, through ignorance, or intentional malice, constantly missing the point. Anita has said, repeatedly, that suggestions like these are to make gaming more inclusive, particularly to women. At no point has she demanded that all games adhere to some set of rules or be bludgeoned out of existence. That sort of fevered response is solely in the minds of those who can't or won't be bothered to understand what's being talked about.

 

[MYeager]

Agree, people can have such views, opinions, and everyone should be respected.

However, in a free society leave content creators alone to create what they want in film and game.

I don't like people dictating what we should watch in game or film.

I don't want censorship in my games.

Don't worry, you're not getting any.

In a free society criticism of content creators from the audience is allowed and in fact most content creators encourage such discussion and discourse as a way of getting feedback that allows them to possibly refine their craft.

 

[plasmawave]

She is there as a love interest though.

She's not the only female character in the game.

 

[Sesha]

As long as this would lead to more balanced representation, I'm all for it. As long as stuff like this doesn't become some checklist or some list of commandments for games, though. Not saying that Anita is claiming this, but I'm thinking more in regards to our either-or gaming industry. I agree with no boob armor, though. Unless it's a goofy anime game or something that's completely over the top. But yeah, more balance.

Well...6. MGS4 and 5 have some skimpy outfits being toted as gear that's sufficient for armed combat.



Then you are looking for DMC4.

As long as he skips the cutscenes with Gloria. I'd say DMC3 is the closest, though.

 

[Neff]

I'm not particularly keen on Sarkeesian, and I certainly don't care for her selective views on gaming, but the palpable fear that she's going to 'ruin' gaming is unwarranted, I think.

If we ever do get into a situation where she has the power to affect or compromise artistic expression on a large scale (unlikely), we will still always have the right as consumers to vote with our wallets.

But I like sexual portrayals of women... I like women and sex, and then both of those things together

Is Anita saying that what I want is wrong?

She's saying that what you want isn't what she wants, as is her right, just as much as what you want is your right.

 

[domlolz]

I wish we heard more from women who are actually in the field.

How about Jade Raymond?

http://www.polygon.com/2015/2/26/8078083/jade-raymond-next-step

It was an experience that made her the face of the game, but also one that exposed her to an uglier side of gaming that she'd never been witness to before. There was a tide of casual and overt misogyny, sexism and harassment directed at Raymond as she continued to talk about the upcoming title. It seemed to culminate with a pornographic comic strip starring a rendition of Raymond.

I ask Raymond about the experience and if the sexism has gotten better for her personally.

"It's weird," she says. "I guess I'd never experienced any issues — working in the game industry is great. I think all of the people in the game industry are great that you get to work with. I've never felt ... I guess, yes, there aren't so many women working, or as many as I would like, working at most game studios, but I've always worked with great people. At the end of the first Assassin's Creed, since I was talking about it so much and then it sort of built to this crazy level, it sort of exploded. That was the first time I was really exposed to the uglier side of things."

 

[sir_roflcopter]

In this new age, those sorts of games will still exist. It just won't be in a majority of games.

Let's take Mass Effect 2 for example. It has pandering shots of Miranda that are incredibly out of place, as it happens whether or not the romance (and thus Shepherd's presumed interest) is established. Then there's Jack, a lady you rescue from prison. She never wears a shirt, jacket or anything at all above the waist. Ever. There's no reason to have these elements in Mass Effect 2, which is by all accounts a serious Space Opera/Action game; such elements exist solely for marketing purposes to the detriment of the game, its narrative, and its world.

It's about time for video games to put their big kid pants on and decide what they want to be; panderous niche or multifaceted industry.

I haven't played ME2 in a while, but pretty sure there were a plethora of Jacob ogling shots.

 

[BlackBuzzard]

But she's saying no lingerie armor and that is where I draw the line

Atleast you are being honest about what you like. I respect that.

 

[Saint of Killers]

Are there more female team members than just the one? If not then she pretty much represents the "smurfette principle"

I think she was the only one in the Order but there are two more ladies, of Indian origin, who have leading roles within the rebellion.

 

[Gestault]

"Equal opportunity sexual objectification is not the answer here," she said. "It actually isn't equal." Her view of how women are seen in much of society and culture is fundamental to her arguments: "Women are thought of and represented as sexual objects to be used by and for the sexual pleasure of others in society, and men are not viewed that way. There's no long-standing oppressive construct of men being seen as sexual objects and reduced to that in real life."

Here here. I can never tell if it's a case of willful delusion or a lack of awareness of the semiotics, but I'm consistently shocked by people's resistance to observations about how women tend to be postured in games, physically or otherwise. Mind you, I think particualr works like Bayonetta are a counterpoint rather than example of her criticism, but I still agree nonetheless.

 

[The Technomancer]

I think she's viewed by many, myself included, as an authority on this topic.

Eh, in this circumstance I think a position of authority means actual control over creative decisions. She is an authority on her topic, but she is not an authority in the development of any game or studio (well except those who have cited her as such)

 

[Alienous]

None of this should be controversial in the slightest. I can maybe see some people arguing against the armor principle, but everything else?

Various body-types is really the only one I don't place any value on. I don't know what purpose that serves, as long as all females in a game aren't ridiculously proportioned.

 

[freeofgreed]

List is perfectly reasonable. One of my biggest criticisms of hers was that she talks about what she didn't like about games but didn't really delve too deeply in how she wanted them to change, so this is great.

 

[AngryMoth]

Can't really argue with any of those bullet points. I have such respect for anita, she is doing important work and she's a hero for putting up with the amount of abuse she endures

 

[Morokh]

I've always respected Sarkeesian, and I've always avoided Gamergate discussions, but I've always been confused about one thing that maybe GAF can clear up now that we have some specific directives from her.

Is she asking for these guidelines to be applied to all video games? What if I want to play as a big-butt lingerie-wearing white girl?

I appreciate that many, many video games sexualize women in this way, but I don't know if I can get behind an idea to water down every single game going forward. Sometimes eye candy can be fun, and that applies to more than just human bodies. It can also mean flashy colors, complex particle effects, etc.


and yeah, RIP Bayo lol

That's also a 'problem' I have with the general discourse about all this.

The 8 'rules' that she talks about here are perfectly reasonable, but that's if you want to make a realistic character in a realistic setting, if that's not your goal, well .... screw that and do what you want with your character, male, or female.

There is also a point where people need to realize that something is just a fantasy, and that they should just consider it like that and nothing more instead of always trying to make something else out of it.

I also regularly have trouble with her examples, as she always handpicks very specific ones that are not necessarily the norm.
That Overwatch example here is perfectly fine in the context of the game itself, or for games like that who have a big cast of pre-defined characters (LoL, Dota, things like that), but as far as other games go, where you have a single main protagonist or where you can create your character, the severe lack of variety, and body sizes and choices also appear on the male side, and that has been a gripe of mine for a long time now.

 

[geordiemp]

Don't worry, the games you like aren't going anywhere.

How do you know what games I like ? Personally I play most my games with my 11 yr old son, don't mind violence (fighting / shooting/ horror) but prefer less of the smut. Its not why I game.

However, on principal I don't like censorship or pushing devs to change in games even if they are not the games I play.

At the end of the day market forces will prevail, they always do imo

Criticism is not censorship. What you demand is censorship of criticism. Realize the irony or are you just trolling the one you quoted?

Don't really understand your point, just don't want 'pressure' to change game or film freedom, which seems to be what some of these 'pressure groups' are about. I have not demanded censorship of criticism - I did not say that, I am implying the opposite supporting free speech, ability to criticise and critique, but also freedom to create without being 'leant on'...

and no I would never go near trolling in such 'political threads', its a sure fire way to get banned even if you were just miss-understood.

 

[BennyBlanco]

I think you underestimate her audience.

Like anything else, it's all about the money. Do you think Kojima and Konami are losing any sleep because they'll be raked over the coals by her for MGSV?

 

[Morrigan Stark]

Yes. A lot of people are, through ignorance, or intentional malice, constantly missing the point. Anita has said, repeatedly, that suggestions like these are to make gaming more inclusive, particularly to women.

You can see this non-inclusive mentality quite strongly in the whole "don't touch my games" quotes, I think. I'm like... hey, they're my games too.

Can I say, "stop putting lingerie armour in my games, people"? Oh, but that's censorship. Okay then, "put more realistic armour on women in my games, please!".

 

[The Lamonster]

Suggesting the industry as a whole make some changes is not saying that every single game must adhere to a standard. Its all about shifting frequency

Does she outright state that, though?

 

[sir_roflcopter]

Various body-types is really the only one I don't place any value on. I don't know what purpose that serves, as long as all females in a game aren't ridiculously proportioned.

fat acceptance and all that

 

[joe2187]

Developers should be able to make the game they want to. If you don't like what they do don't buy the game.

You won't see me buying things like DOA stuff but if they want to make it that's there choice and the gamers choice to play it.

Nobody is telling them to do anything. People can make the game they want, however they want. She's just adding a females/feminist perspective on things.

Bayo, DOA, Senran Kagura and the such arent going to die out all of sudden and the developers to withdraw into the shadows. They're fun games and they arent trying to hide what they are. And thats fine because those games arent really harming anybody at all, they're blatant and up front out their sexuality to the point of parody so it's not even much of an issue.

But she's saying no lingerie armor and that is where I draw the line

As an alternate costume or DLC, I have no issue.

But when a character starts a game and is already clad in simplistic bikini armour? thats a bit much and kind of terrible.

 

[Mesoian]

It's really funny how defensive I internally became when she brought up the Wonderful 101. But she was right, the fact that the only females in that game what shows any real outward emotion are more concerned with boys, beauty and sex is telling.

Still love Wonder Pink and Vijounne though.

 

[Nappuccino]

Various body-types is really the only one I don't place any value on. I don't know what purpose that serves, as long as all females in a game aren't ridiculously proportioned.

If everyone is "perfectly" proportioned, it sets up a very false and idealized expectation. Most game designs aren't even close to realistic, much less varied.

 

[Despera]

Don't make the enemies or villains hyper-sexualized

Why not?

because again it creates a scenario in which violence against women is gendered and infused with elements of titillation. Violence against female characters should never be sexy.

I think this argument holds little weight, unless we're talking eroge.

I agree with Totilo here:

Of all of Sarkeesian's requests, I could see this being viewed as the most well-intentioned but creatively stifling one—Why not sometimes have a sexy female enemy? Why not sometimes let a character of any type be helpless or play up their gender?—and yet it also seemed to be the one where she was trying hardest to find ways through it and where she felt like there were the worst potential negative impacts.

I think it is a bit arrogant of Sarkeesian to ask devs to stop sexualizing female characters and at the same time asking them to have broader representation of women .

I say let's have equal gender representation in games, without silly exclusions.

 

[Draxal]

Suggesting the industry as a whole make some changes is not saying that every single game must adhere to a standard. Its all about shifting frequency

I think there's room for deviancy in the lesser titles, but for main stream appeal triple AAA games, that list is very good (except for point 8 sometimes it is very hard to shoe in generic female soldiers for historical content).

 

[Doc Holliday]

Would you rather her pout? Be mild mannered?

Seriously, what's wrong with legitimate demands? It's not like they're threats. They're reasonable requests that devs to which devs should strive to adhere.

Should Rosa Parks have "suggested" that she didn't want to move to the back of the bus?

I don't think that's a valid comparison.

Also they are reasonable requests because afaik you don't care about what she's demanding stop.

Let's say I'm Frank Frazetta or Simon Bisley and someone demanded I stop painting naked women. I would be pissed off. Just because you don't care for it doesn't mean it shouldn't be allowed.

I'm with her when she says want's more of the type of games she wants. She loses me when she says "Stop making the games I don't agree with"

 

[JinjoUnchained]

I read these suggestions as: "instead of cartoonish exploitation, let's overreact in the opposite direction and enforce hyper-realistic asexuality". Didn't listen to the whole talk, I only read the summary here.

How about variety? Yeah, it's a big problem if every major title depicts women as physically disproportionate objects to rescue. We can't have that. But sexuality is a part of life. Male heterosexual attraction to the feminine is a part of life. You can't repress or suppress that any more than you can repress other forms of attraction. So I'd say there's a place for some games to have strong, non-sexualized playable characters of both sexes and also for other games with stylized sexuality (but hopefully not in an exploitive way).

 

[The Technomancer]

Various body-types is really the only one I don't place any value on. I don't know what purpose that serves, as long as all females in a game aren't ridiculously proportioned.

That's more of a deep cultural issue that's becoming an increasingly prominent feminist issue in all media, not just games. Men are allowed to have many more body types in various roles than women.

 

[chicagocubsfan]

Seems like fair ideas to me.

 

[Angry Fork]

The list is fine, but I don't think it should apply to all games, or that the people who don't incorporate all of that list are sexist asshole scumbags. People should be able to create what they want.

Obviously context matters and if for example someone wrote a game that portrayed racism or sexism in a positive light, then it deserves criticism. But showing voluptuous women isn't that imo. I feel like they should just show half naked men to even it out rather than get rid of all things sexual.

 

[Roto13]

You know if we ignore her she will just go away.

Will that work on you? *adds to ignore list*

 

[DSN2K]

Some of her ideas are pretty damn solid but they shouldn't be replacing sexualised characters Female or Male for that matter but being brought in alongside to reflect the diversity of society.

At the same time there is nothing wrong with Sex. She really gives the impression of somebody who is afraid of the whole notion. She sees it as a vulnerability. Frankly its not, for men or women.

 

[Schrade]

That's a good list that women (and some men) have been asking for for years.

I agree with it.

 

[Ryaaan14]

Literally every single female I've played games with, whether it be on a console or on PC playing an MMO, loves sexy scantily clad female avatars. I do too. If you want a more diverse female representation that's understandable but why remove things males and females love?

 

[sir_roflcopter]

You can see this non-inclusive mentality quite strongly in the whole "don't touch my games" quotes, I think. I'm like... hey, they're my games too.

Can I say, "stop putting lingerie armour in my games, people"? Oh, but that's censorship. Okay then, "put more realistic armour on women in my games, please!".

it's actually pretty understandable. It's hard to see them as YOUR games if you're continually lambasting them for sexism, or unrealistic portrayal of women , etc.

your is of course hypothetical here.

 

[SkeptiMism]

Even though all her arguments are valid, my point is that she is arguing for nobody. I just think making the next game character more curvy isn't going to usher in a new age of female gamers. What's her endgame?

She has already made some big name devs a lot more aware of the common tropes.

There's no end game really, except to make people aware of these things.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

Like anything else, it's all about the money. Do you think Kojima and Konami are losing any sleep because they'll be raked over the coals by her for MGSV?

I don't think kojima will feel bad about criticism. If what he says is true, then everyone will be ashamed for calling it a bad/sexist design.

 

[Murder. She Wrote]

I support that list 100%, nothing listed is that difficult to achieve and imo it would actually make games better.