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[theBishop]

What do you mean by more? SCE haven't ported a single game to PC and that's not going to change just because they switch to x86. You're not going to see Uncharted Vita ported to iPad just because they're similar.

I'm thinking of the precedent in SOE games like DC Universe Online, which is now under the SCE umbrella. Maybe it's unlikely, but I think certain PS3 games could've had a stronger community on PC. MAG for example.

They probably won't do it, but the bar is lower than ever.

 

[FLEABttn]

Forget 4K just give us games in full 1080p that run at 60fps. Some of the biggest games this generation didn't even run at 720p.

I doubt we'll see many many more 1080p 60fps games next gen compared to this gen. The extra power will go to all the types of things the extra power went to this gen.

 

[Raistlin]

Well that's strange. I didn't think every ps4 would come with a hdd. That's going to put a limit on cost cutting, just like it did with ps3. I thought sony would have learned.

While certainly it would have helped in terms of cost-cutting, the HDD really wasn't the long pole there.

I think the positives far outweigh the negatives with included an HDD in all SKU's. Both in terms of game development, and in terms of potential revenue from services for Sony.

4 layer bluray sounds good though. Would that be 100GB disc? That could hold some ridiculously high quality FMV.

100 or 128GB - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blu-ray_Disc#BDXL

if the main GPU is too Power Hungry it makes even more sense to have the APU.


because every game is not going to need the powerful GPU.

I think it would be very surprising if devs would even have the option to target the APU only for full scale games. Probably won't even be an available option in the SDK. They will work in tandem normally.

Where I think devs could target it (or should I say, it would automatically only use the APU) would be for some special case dev environments. For example, when running a VM for stuff like Mini's, PS Suite, etc. Another likely candidate would be for 'app' development (media players, social stuff, etc).

I wouldn't be surprised if Sony offers some sort of special SDK for PSN arcade titles that's APU-only as well. The GPU in the APU is better than RSX, so you can still do great stuff with it. These sorts of things will all be abstracted from the dev though.

(obviously I'm purely speculating here)

 

[Triple U]

This rumor still doesn't make any sense. The memory setup for this thing would have to be exotic as all hell, which could end up as bad as it did with the PS3.

 

[Raistlin]

No s..t. I know what you mean. Well Nintendo said they are not about specs. Shame because 3rd party is

It's less about 'specs' (as in wanting crazy amounts of power), and instead more about dev portability. When there's a large disparity in specs, 'porting' gets closer and closer to writing it from scratch.

When you look at PC titles, you see that certain HW spec differences don't prevent an engine from running. These engines are designed to be pretty scalable. You can adjust things like resolution, texture resolution, draw distance, certain effects, etc ... and this allows the game to run on a fairly wide variety of HW.

The concern from recent rumors regarding Wii U, which while not to the same extent does mirror part of the situation with Wii, is that supposedly the GPU is running a lesser (custom) shader model. When you cannot do many of the same shader effects, regardless of pure processing power, you create far more serious issues in terms of development. A lot more changes need to be made when 'porting' the title.

I'm thinking of the precedent in SOE games like DC Universe Online, which is now under the SCE umbrella. Maybe it's unlikely, but I think certain PS3 games could've had a stronger community on PC. MAG for example.

They probably won't do it, but the bar is lower than ever.

While it's certainly possible, especially since they're trying to get more cooperation between sectors ... I'm not sure we should look too much into that situation.

I think what's more likely is they'll continue to make SOE titles available on both ... and potentially expand SOE in the future. That doesn't necessarily mean SCE titles will show up on PC though. I suspect it's more of a one-way street.

This rumor still doesn't make any sense. The memory setup for this thing would have to be exotic as all hell, which could end up as bad as it did with the PS3.

This sort of architecture is already out in the wild for PC's. The dev kit in question isn't some custom build, so there's already precedent for it.

If anything I expect they'll customize things to optimize performance more, but it will remain abstracted from devs just as it currently is.

 

[Triple U]

This sort of architecture is already out in the wild for PC's. The dev kit in question isn't some custom build, so there's already precedent for it.

If anything I expect they'll customize things to optimize performance more, but it will remain abstracted from devs just as it currently is.

Split memory architectures have existed in PC's for IDK how long, but that's irrelevant, this is not a pc. No amount of customizing on AMD's part can make split-memory, with possibly different types of ram, favorable for developing console games among other things.

 

[OldJadedGamer]

What do you mean by more? SCE haven't ported a single game to PC and that's not going to change just because they switch to x86. You're not going to see Uncharted Vita ported to iPad just because they're similar.

As pointed out, SOE is now a first party team directly under SCE. So yes, SCE has ported games to the PC

 

[Globox_82]

Someone in the past mentioned Pitcairn GPU as great candidate. Why? Don't know much about GPUs

 

[Raistlin]

Split memory architectures have existed in PC's for IDK how long, but that's irrelevant, this is not a pc. No amount of customizing on AMD's part can make split-memory, with possibly different types of ram, favorable for developing console games among other things.

The architecture in question already exists in PC's. AMD already has tech to utilize both a dedicated GPU and the graphics processing power of their APU. This isn't a unicorn they're chasing.

 

[MeBecomingI]

Well, that newer Pastebin post about the 4GB RAM, A8 APU w/ 6850 and the HD 7900 is a much more comfortable specification level for what I'd like to see out of the PS4. Doubtful that it is true, though. That post seems far too much like a fanboy damage control wishlist post.

I just sense that Sony is going to try an' pull a Nintendo and attempt too emulate the success of the Wii; release something that is mildly more powerful than the PS3 and bundle the Move with the machine or something and rush into the market. That ship has sailed and with the Nintendo doing something different with the Wii U (and having a never ending stable of massive selling first party properties) and Microsoft likely pumping out power in the next Xbox along with Kinect, Sony needs to balance Microsoft out and provide something a little different. I seriously hope Sony doesn't skimp out on the specifications for the machine. Technology is moving forward so much faster than before and if Sony does a "1.5 leap" and Microsoft takes off the planet with Xbox specifications, I think it could be a huge problem for Sony. Especially if Microsoft is willing to bend every which way for third party exclusives and content.

Hopefully with Kaz making "gaming" a pillar of Sony, they won't skimp out on the machine. GIVE ME POWAH!

 

[RaijinFY]

An APU with a HD6850 and an HD7900?

...

 

[thuway]

An APU with a HD6850 and an HD7900?

...

Hahaohwow.jpg

I would LOVE for this to happen, but no where in my deluded fanboy dreams would this machine ever come out.

A- It would have insane board complexity
B- It would be more power hungry than a LAUNCH PS3
C- It would cost 499 if they want to stay in "no loss" territory.
D- Long term failure rates are bound to be high since this damn thing will run so hot.

 

[Confiture]

An APU with a HD6850 and an HD7900?

...

This "rumor" sounds as crazy to me as the 6550+6670 one...
The 6850 is quite a capable gpu by itself and on top of that you add a 79xx???
Yeah not likely...

 

[nelsonroyale]

This "rumor" sounds as crazy to me as the 6550+6670 one...
The 6850 is quite a capable gpu by itself and on top of that you add a 79xx???
Yeah not likely...

I would be in favour if they could get the wattage down (ahha) but this has no chance of being true...This one really would function as [george foreman] grill considering the type of heat it would be generating... I hope the other doesn't as well though...6670 is pathetic and not worth an upgrade

 

[specialguy]

Someone in the past mentioned Pitcairn GPU as great candidate. Why? Don't know much about GPUs

It seems feasible (size/cost/heat/power wise) and is pretty powerful.

Just seems like a perfect fit from current GPU's.

It's the GPU in 7850 and 7870, in the 7870 case it's 2.56 teraflops of power, above what Epic said was needed to run Samaritan in 1080P.

Size wise it's 212nm^2, for comparison original RSX in PS3 was 240mm^2. Powerwise it can use something like ~130 watts in gaming.

If you favor a powerful GPU with an eye toward realism, pitcairn is your man (and possibly whatever Kepler variant will challenge pitcairn). Though I actually think full GK104 might be possible in a console, I'm in the minority.

 

[onQ123]

Hahaohwow.jpg

I would LOVE for this to happen, but no where in my deluded fanboy dreams would this machine ever come out.

A- It would have insane board complexity
B- It would be more power hungry than a LAUNCH PS3
C- It would cost 499 if they want to stay in "no loss" territory.
D- Long term failure rates are bound to be high since this damn thing will run so hot.

A - insane is Sony's middle name

B- maybe it has a low power mode where is only use the main GPU when it's needed

C- $499 is a good price for good hardware & they plan to be selling these for a few years so the price will come down over time & people who don't want to spend $499 can still buy PS3 they will have a low price option.

D- because the hardware you see today runs hot doesn't mean that it will run hot next year.

 

[Globox_82]

It seems feasible (size/cost/heat/power wise) and is pretty powerful.

Just seems like a perfect fit from current GPU's.

It's the GPU in 7850 and 7870, in the 7870 case it's 2.56 teraflops of power, above what Epic said was needed to run Samaritan in 1080P.

Size wise it's 212nm^2, for comparison original RSX in PS3 was 240mm^2. Powerwise it can use something like ~130 watts in gaming.

If you favor a powerful GPU with an eye toward realism, pitcairn is your man (and possibly whatever Kepler variant will challenge pitcairn). Though I actually think full GK104 might be possible in a console, I'm in the minority.

thx for explanation. However I have follow up question.
What determins heat thing everyone is mentioning ?
FAb (nm) thing?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_Islands_(GPU_family)#Chipset_table

Looking at that link atm Pitcairn that has 2.56tflops of power costs 349usd. I know price will go down by fall or it is potentially cheaper for Sony. Still sounds like a lot of money.

 

[Respawn]

This.

I expect Sony to learn almost nothing from the PS3, and the Vita should have reminded people of that.

PS4 will end up another "hard to work with, but worth the effort" expensive console.

I hope for their sake it's not, but remember, while Kaz is a new CEO, he's not exactly fresh blood.

You contradict yourself with your second sentence just by mentioning Vita. I know it's cool to post BS on a forum but stop.

 

[Triple U]

The architecture in question already exists in PC's. AMD already has tech to utilize both a dedicated GPU and the graphics processing power of their APU. This isn't a unicorn they're chasing.

Lol, again this is not a pc. Almost nothing they design for PC's is gonna have any relevance here. This would be the same unicorn Sony was chasing.

 

[iceatcs]

So 28nm Southern Islands rumour fault?

 

[Mr Swine]

Well it looks like both AMD and Nvidia are having problems with producing cards at 28nm, I think it will take a year or so before everything is sorted out

 

[iceatcs]

If they sort out with 28nm production rate.
I bet it will be one of 7700 series on discrete one. But I hope 7800 series. 7900 series is no way.

 

[Raistlin]

Lol, again this is not a pc. Almost nothing they design for PC's is gonna have any relevance here. This would be the same unicorn Sony was chasing.

uh huh

So let me get this straight. Even though they are able to get this to work in a PC without changing the memory architecture to some 'exotic as hell' design (actually they don't change it at all) ... that would automatically be the case for consoles? And "almost nothing they design for PC's is gonna have relevance here" ... in other words, the design for the drivers handling load balancing for what is essentially XFire would automatically have to be thrown out entirely and started from scratch?

It's amusing you start your post with 'lol'.


This is my favorite part though. "No amount of customizing on AMD's part can make split-memory, with possibly different types of ram, favorable for developing console games among other things." You do realize that split memory has been how every console has worked, with 360 being the anomaly? It's also how PC games are developed ... you know, where many console games come from?

PS3's memory was a problem only because it was effectively too low versus the competition. Not because split memory inherently sucks.

 

[H_Prestige]

As pointed out, SOE is now a first party team directly under SCE. So yes, SCE has ported games to the PC

No, SOE has made PC games. Just because they are now part of SCE doesn't make it any more likely Killzone or GT will appear on PC.

 

[jeff_rigby]

Lol, again this is not a pc. Almost nothing they design for PC's is gonna have any relevance here. This would be the same unicorn Sony was chasing.

uh huh

So let me get this straight. Even though they are able to get this to work in a PC without changing the memory architecture to some 'exotic as hell' design (actually they don't change it at all) ... that would automatically be the case for consoles? And "almost nothing they design for PC's is gonna have relevance here" ... in other words, the design for the drivers handling load balancing for what is essentially XFire would automatically have to be thrown out entirely and started from scratch?

It's amusing you start your post with 'lol'.

This is my favorite part though. "No amount of customizing on AMD's part can make split-memory, with possibly different types of ram, favorable for developing console games among other things." You do realize that split memory has been how every console has worked, with 360 being the anomaly? It's also how PC games are developed ... you know, where many console games come from?

PS3's memory was a problem only because it was effectively too low versus the competition. Not because split memory inherently sucks.

I'm wondering how much like a PC the PS4 is going to be; remove card slots and expand-ability like plug in memory and a near PC mother board could be used. A Custom design is going to be expensive and a PC motherboard chipset already has an economy of scale.

The AMD fusion APU according to AMD has a roadmap with by 2013 a common memory pool but no memory controller and 28nm die (The Micron 3D stacked memory has a memory controller and logic, most modern PC chipsets include the memory controller in the main CPU, that the next 2013 design does not could mean it's forward thinking about new 2013 memory). How much of the actual roadmap has been published? If Sony is going to buy 20 million (using the Digitimes rumor for numbers) Fusion APUs the first year and perhaps another 30 million over the next 3 years, how much R&D could be spent on that APU that would benefit AMD in their PC line as well. Sony may get a State of the Art APU not the one that is rumored; I would think that probable.

Given the rumors of PC Chipsets (AMD) being used in PS4, I don't see anyone thinking about what that means in non-gaming functionality. IF the design is off the shelf then Sony has no need to protect anything other than for DRM. They can afford to be more open and we may get some form of Linux OS in the application side of the PS4. This would make it easier to support a State of the Art Browser and applications. X86 CPU also makes it easier to support a JIT javascript engine or JITMono and more.

 

[DieH@rd]

Im hoping on Sony placing 2 Kaveri chips on the motherboard. Later they can combine them in one 2.5D package.

 

[Durante]

I just had a thought that I don't believe has been considered on this forum yet. If one or more of the consoles are based on x86 and a PC GPU architecture, then we could see emulation relatively early on in the cycle. Do you think platform holders are considering this at all?

 

[DieH@rd]

Emulation of such strong components is not on their minds.

Do you have some solution of easily emulating lets say 2gb of gddr5 with few times larger bandwith than any PC DDR ram currently available?

 

[Durante]

Emulation of such strong components is not on their minds.

Do you have some solution of easily emulating lets say 2gb of gddr5 with few times larger bandwith than any PC DDR ram currently available?

If they go with an APU and a GPU they'll most likely also have split memory pools, each of which has far less bandwidth available than its PC equivalent (even at launch, nevermind years down the road).

 

[thuway]

A - insane is Sony's middle name

B- maybe it has a low power mode where is only use the main GPU when it's needed

C- $499 is a good price for good hardware & they plan to be selling these for a few years so the price will come down over time & people who don't want to spend $499 can still buy PS3 they will have a low price option.

D- because the hardware you see today runs hot doesn't mean that it will run hot next year.

I will eat every forum member's hat if this were to be true. But it's not. It won't be. Your lucky to get half the performance of the dream Sony fanboy build.

 

[Averon]

Sounds like Pitcairn GPUs is the best we can hope for.

 

[brain_stew]

I just had a thought that I don't believe has been considered on this forum yet. If one or more of the consoles are based on x86 and a PC GPU architecture, then we could see emulation relatively early on in the cycle. Do you think platform holders are considering this at all?

People said the same thing about the Xbox but that didn't exactly come to pass. The lower level hardware access and exclusive APIs make it a lot harder than it would first seem.

 

[DieH@rd]

Sounds like Pitcairn GPUs is the best we can hope for.

Pitcarin is great. Currently best power/preformance on the market [better than 680].

 

[Durante]

People said the same thing about the Xbox but that didn't exactly come to pass. The lower level hardware access and exclusive APIs make it a lot harder than it would first seem.

True, but it actually did come to pass relatively quickly for a few games. I think the main reason back then was lack of interest due to the low number of desirable exclusives that weren't on PC. Of course, the same thing could happen now.

 

[joshwaan]

Well even if the PS4 gets a 6850 it be a massive upgrade and games look fantastic. I mean look at Kill Zone 2,3 GOW 3 Uncharted series all from the RSX and Cell help of coarse.

checking out pure specs based on the PC chips it's very interesting.

RSX Equivalent

nVidia
Series: GeForce 7
GPU: G70
Release Date: 2005-06-22
Interface: PCI-E x16
Core Clock: 430 MHz
Memory Clock: 600 MHz (1200 DDR)
Memory Bandwidth: 38.4 GB/sec
Shader Operations: 10320 MOperations/sec
Pixel Fill Rate: 6880 MPixels/sec
Texture Fill Rate: 10320 MTexels/sec
Vertex Operations: 860 MVertices/sec

Rumors APU Chip 6850

AMD
Series: Radeon HD 6k
GPU: Barts
Release Date: 2010-10-22
Interface: PCI-E 2.0 x16
Core Clock: 775 MHz
Shader Clock: 775 MHz
Memory Clock: 2000 MHz (4000 DDR)
Memory Bandwidth: 128 GB/sec
FLOPS: 1488 GFLOPS
Pixel Fill Rate: 24800 MPixels/sec
Texture Fill Rate: 37200 MTexels/sec

Site info used from http://www.gpureview.com/show_cards.php?card1=310&card2=636

Even if the PS4 had only a 6850 in the unit it would be a huge upgrade from RSX. I understand it going to have a 7900 SI chip as the main according to that rumor which I think is Batshit insane

This is like 2005 all over again but with more hype and meltdowns lol

Anyways bring on the new rumors lol

 

[Mario007]

Well even if the PS4 gets a 6850 it be a massive upgrade and games look fantastic. I mean look at Kill Zone 2,3 GOW 3 Uncharted series all from the RSX and Cell help of coarse.

checking out pure specs based on the PC chips it's very interesting.

RSX Equivalent

nVidia
Series: GeForce 7
GPU: G70
Release Date: 2005-06-22
Interface: PCI-E x16
Core Clock: 430 MHz
Memory Clock: 600 MHz (1200 DDR)
Memory Bandwidth: 38.4 GB/sec
Shader Operations: 10320 MOperations/sec
Pixel Fill Rate: 6880 MPixels/sec
Texture Fill Rate: 10320 MTexels/sec
Vertex Operations: 860 MVertices/sec

Rumors APU Chip 6850

AMD
Series: Radeon HD 6k
GPU: Barts
Release Date: 2010-10-22
Interface: PCI-E 2.0 x16
Core Clock: 775 MHz
Shader Clock: 775 MHz
Memory Clock: 2000 MHz (4000 DDR)
Memory Bandwidth: 128 GB/sec
FLOPS: 1488 GFLOPS
Pixel Fill Rate: 24800 MPixels/sec
Texture Fill Rate: 37200 MTexels/sec

Site info used from http://www.gpureview.com/show_cards.php?card1=310&card2=636

Even if the PS4 had only a 6850 in the unit it would be a huge upgrade from RSX.

This is like 2005 all over again but with more hype and meltdowns lol

Anyways been on the new rumors lol

Part of the reason why the games look so good is Cell helping out the RSX and Cell is the one thing is rumoured to be missing from PS4.

 

[Globox_82]

Part of the reason why the games look so good is Cell helping out the RSX and Cell is the one thing is rumoured to be missing from PS4.

ahhh the magic cell dust. that makes unthinkable things possible.
PS4 will have better CPU then cell, that's all that matters.

 

[joshwaan]

Yeah I hope it does also

Looking at a SI 7850 fuck compare the specs to the 7800GTX WOW !

Manufacturer: AMD
Series: Radeon HD 7k
GPU: Pitcairn
Release Date: 2012-03-05
Interface: PCI-E 3.0 x16
Core Clock: 860 MHz
Shader Clock: 860 MHz
Memory Clock: 2400 MHz (4800 DDR)
Memory Bandwidth: 153.6 GB/sec
FLOPS: 1761.28 GFLOPS
Pixel Fill Rate: 27520 MPixels/sec
Texture Fill Rate: 55040 MTexels/sec

I mean with the Cell, RSX pumping out The Last of US and thinking what Devs can do with this power Mother of God it will be sic

If Ps4 has something like this and a sic CPU look out Microsoft Next Gen

 

[AmFreak]

ahhh the magic cell dust. that makes unthinkable things possible.
PS4 will have better CPU then cell, that's all that matters.

Except there is no "better".

 

[gundamkyoukai]

While Cell did some great stuff in PS3 most devs had to used it because of how bad RSX was.
This time should Sony will put effort into the GPU and make the system more even.

 

[chaosblade]

Not that that the PS4 or any console would actually use this setup, but I can't help but wonder how a setup with an APU + GPU would work, with the GPU in the APU using SI cores and the discrete GPU using VLIW5 (since we're talking AMD parts, at least).

That's technically "backwards," but the SI-based GPU would be better for GPGPU/compute work, while software optimized for a VLIW5-based (or VLIW4 since that might be easier to optimize for) GPU should be really nice, and really efficient.

The problem with PC games is that they aren't really optimized for any specific hardware, and VLIW4/5 aren't really well utilized, which is why AMD has happily ditched them. In a console, where you're targeting specific hardware, those designs might work really well. Then the APU can be used kind of like Cell in the PS3, probably at a lower design cost, but also lower performance versus the SPUs. Still would allow some GPU work to be offloaded to a processor that can handle it better though.

Just kind of rambling. No idea if that would actually work very well, just seems like it could in theory.

 

[Globox_82]

Not that that the PS4 or any console would actually use this setup, but I can't help but wonder how a setup with an APU + GPU would work.

that's what rumors are suggesting

 

[StealthGoblin]

ahhh the magic cell dust. that makes unthinkable things possible.
PS4 will have better CPU then cell, that's all that matters.

Is there even a better CPU available for consoles better than Cell? Even today, Cell is a beast.

 

[Kung Fu Grip]

Is there even a better CPU available for consoles better than Cell? Even today, Cell is a beast.

l was wondering what CPU sony is going to use that equals or exceeds the cell. Can the multiple streaming videos thats on the XMB even be done on another console?

 

[onQ123]

ahhh the magic cell dust. that makes unthinkable things possible.
PS4 will have better CPU then cell, that's all that matters.

& that's where the APU comes in! the Cell made games look better by helping the GPU do GPU task so you should know that a 2nd GPU can do the same thing.

GPGPU's & APU's are the main reason why Cell isn't as important as it was in 2006.

 

[DieH@rd]

Yeah I hope it does also

Looking at a SI 7850 fuck compare the specs to the 7800GTX WOW !

Sadly the only GPU that is rumored so far is 7670, which is far from 7850.

 

[onQ123]

Is there even a better CPU available for consoles better than Cell? Even today, Cell is a beast.

l was wondering what CPU sony is going to use that equals or exceeds the cell. Can the multiple streaming videos thats on the XMB even be done on another console?

see my post above.

The Cell was a Beast because it was a CPU with the power to handle GPU tasks but now they have GPGPU's

GPU's that are smart enough to handle CPU tasks.



because of GPGPU's Cell isn't really needed.

 

[Globox_82]

Is there even a better CPU available for consoles better than Cell? Even today, Cell is a beast.

Yes CELL is a beast, however it is an overrated beast. Exclusives looked amazing cuz of it. But most of multiplatform games (that make 95% of the games we play) run poorly compared to 360. A lot of people blame it on ram, however it was CELL that made programming pain in the ass.

All I wanted to say is that no matter how amazing CELL is, Sony will have to have a better CPU in PS4, and that's all that should matter. Using something that is closer to PC architecture will only make multiplat games better this time around

 

[StealthGoblin]

Do we reckon they'll have multiple SKU's available at launch?

- PS4 500GB HDD, Blu-Ray drive.
- PS4 500GB HDD, No Blu-Ray drive (cheaper)
- PS4 500GB HDD, Blu-Ray Drive, Cell included in addition to the PS4 CPU for BC (most expensive, limited run)

I'd buy the latter, even at an inflated price.

 

[Panajev2001a]

& that's where the APU comes in! the Cell made games look better by helping the GPU do GPU task so you should know that a 2nd GPU can do the same thing.

GPGPU's & APU's are the main reason why Cell isn't as important as it was in 2006.

CELL's SPE are probably still better at tasks which require a lower latency overhead, but may benefit from more execution resources and wider vectors than regular FPU's come with and gave developers a manageable programming model for them (developers liked PS2's VU's and the SPE's are better than them in almost every regard although some people did not like the forced SoA SIMD model they came with) . A unified CPU+GPU like Intel and AMD are trying to achieve could help though, which is what I hope this APU can provide.