Support NeoGAF

[bottles]

"Mario Kart Wii is too successful to be core" is the only thing i'm getting from your rambling bottles.

If you’re gonna give an example of a core title, Mario Kart is a bad one because it’s a go-kart racing game with massive casual appeal: it’s easy to pick up and play – especially with the Wii remote and even moreso with the bundled steering wheel – and its cast is made up of characters that everybody and their grandma knows and loves.

 

[Aaron Strife]

Wii Fit Plus
Mario & Sonic at the Winter Olympics
Zelda Wii
Pikmin 3
Sin & Punishment 2
Metroid Prime Hunters Wii

Would be a great E3 line-up.

 

[A Twisty Fluken]

If you’re gonna give an example of a core title, Mario Kart is a bad one since it’s a go-kart racing game with massive casual appeal since it’s easy to pick up and play – especially with the Wii remote and even moreso with the bundled steering wheel – and its cast is made up of characters that everybody and their grandma knows and loves.

So core games are defined by inaccessibility? Is that what you're saying?

 

[DeathbyVolcano]

That's a fucking awful argument. Just because a game has mas amounts of appeal doesn't make it exclusively a "casual" game. Tetris, Pokemon, Guitar Hero, etc are ALL games that ANYONE can pick up and play and have a great time with it, but they ride both ways of the street: both casual and hardcore appeal. That's the make of a truly successful game; something that Nintendo does very well usually (Mario Brothers games especially).

What's frustrating is Nintendo's focus on strict casual appeal these days; games for one audience and not the other--Wii Music, Wii Fit, etc. At least Mario Kart Wii still retains this appeal that can be shared by all audiences.

 

[Vinci]

NSMB is not a core title because it looks like the classic Super Mario Bros., which has massive casual appeal, and is easy to pick up and play.

What the hell sort of 'core' definition are you working with, man? Is Bit.Trip.Beat a 'casual' title given it looks similar to Pong? 'Easy to pick up and play' doesn't necessitate that something is a 'casual' title either. The best games of all time are ones that are easy to pick up and play but hard to master, like Tetris or Punch Out. Are those not core games?

Super Mario Galaxy, for example, also has casual appeal, but it is too sophisticated for many casual gamers and therefore I would label it as a core game. My point here is that the leap from Brain Training/Wario Ware/Nintendogs to NSMB is not as big as the leap from Wii Fit to Metroid Prime 3 or Twilight Princess.

Mario Galaxy turned some folks off for the same reason that Mario 64 did; some people simply do not like playing the game in 3d. They prefer 2d Mario for reasons that might have nothing to do with them being simpletons unable to grasp the logic necessary to work an analog stick.

And did I ever suggest that they were going to move from Wii Fit to Twilight Princess? Upstreaming people does not mean tossing them into the deep end of the pool after they've been swimming for a few minutes. It's about steps. Going from Wii Sports or Wii Fit to Mario Kart Wii is a step. All we're alleging is that there's no sense going back to build the first step in a staircase when the current step isn't broken.

I think I already did by saying why the Wii version is so popular.

The wheel is the right answer. It made it friendly to people who hadn't thought - hell, had probably never even heard - of Mario Kart in their entire lives up to that point.

Oh, come on. That process took place within the same game, which was already hardcore to begin with.

And I'm saying there's not a lot of difference between what WoW does and what a console can do provided experiences are produced that move from one level of complexity to another. And no, many people who play WoW were never 'hardcore.' Not even remotely. My old guild had four or five 'soccer moms' that hadn't played an online game before outside of friggin' PopCap stuff. You're seriously undermining what that game has accomplished; it took what was a hardcore experience and casualized it in the early parts of the game enough to entice people to it that didn't even know what a MMO was before.

It’s always been Nintendo’s plan to eventually upstream casual gamers, but they’re not going to buying the Metroids and Zeldas of this world anytime soon. That’s too big a leap. Nintendo is still going to need games that are specifically catered to casual gamers.

Wii Fit, Wii Sports, and Wii Play mean they don't have to make any more. It's that simple. Those titles continue to sell for a reason, and they're never going to stop. Wii Fit, by the end of this generation, will easily sell over 30 million units. They act as one's point of entry; there is no sense to add more when the ones you have already work like a charm.

The only reason Nintendo would not try to actively upstream Wii users is if they've completely taken leave of their senses.

 

[Volcynika]

If you’re gonna give an example of a core title, Mario Kart is a bad one since it’s a go-kart racing game with massive casual appeal since it’s easy to pick up and play – especially with the Wii remote and even moreso with the bundled steering wheel – and its cast is made up of characters that everybody and their grandma knows and loves.

That's....just a horrible argument to make.

 

[Deku]

1 trillion yen deposits. Holy...

~10 billion dollars in reserves. They could fund the profligacy of this money losing HD generation all on their own.

 

[Vinci]

~10 billion dollars in reserves. They could fund the profligacy of this money losing HD generation all on their own.

What do you think they're saving up for?

 

[Josh7289]

Interesting read. I like to read the questions and answers in these (Nintendo) investor meetings.

 

[Synless]

What do you think they're saving up for?

Complete and utter domination of the gaming market.

 

[Cygnus X-1]

It's actually not in Kodak Theater this year. Or that's at least what that one Nintendo blog said when they got their invitations.

Ok. Thus, where is it?

 

[Hitokage]

If you’re gonna give an example of a core title, Mario Kart is a bad one since it’s a go-kart racing game with massive casual appeal since it’s easy to pick up and play – especially with the Wii remote and even moreso with the bundled steering wheel – and its cast is made up of characters that everybody and their grandma knows and loves.

Picking up and playing Mario Kart is one thing(although having seen my parents try, the wheel itself definitely has a learning curve), getting decent at it in spite of its efforts to punish your success is another.

Oh, and people know Mario, but they don't know half of the other people.

 

[Wii Will Rock U]

2nd take. I'm curious. Can someone answer me please?

Club Nokia at 9 AM on June 2nd.

And then I have to jet from that conference to Sony's which I have NO IDEA where that is. :lol

Wii Fit Plus
Mario & Sonic at the Winter Olympics
Zelda Wii
Pikmin 3
Sin & Punishment 2
Metroid Prime Hunters Wii

Would be a great E3 line-up.

That would actually be great. I don't expect it but it would be great.

 

[Scrubking]

I think bottles proves the ridiculousness of the "hardcore" distinction.

Also this idea that Nintendo wants someone to "graduate" from Wii Fit to Sin & Punishment is wrong. Nintendo wants to bring in new gamers and would like to get them to become full time gamers aka someone who buys games on a consistent basis (from them), casual or otherwise. However, that doesn't mean that someone who plays Peggle is ever going to start liking Metroid.

This idea that casual gaming is just a stepping stone to "real" gaming is ignorant of the fact that casual games have been around for years, is a legitimate genre and is here to stay.

 

[Cygnus X-1]

Club Nokia at 9 AM on June 2nd.

And then I have to jet from that conference to Sony's which I have NO IDEA where that is. :lol



That would actually be great. I don't expect it but it would be great.

Club Nokia L.A.

If it is this one, the conference is not listed as event.

 

[Hitokage]

Also this idea that Nintendo wants someone to "graduate" from Wii Fit to Sin & Punishment is wrong. Nintendo wants to bring in new gamers and would like to get them to become full time gamers aka someone who buys games on a consistent basis (from them), casual or otherwise. However, that doesn't mean that someone who plays Peggle is ever going to start liking Metroid.

The key point many, including those in Nintendo, miss is that the NES had an incredibly diverse library. It wasn't all light gun and power pad games, yet Nintendo now insists they must do little else.

...because dammit, even if the nunchuks and classic controllers are available they spent precious funding on those motion sensors so developers better damn well use them!

 

[Cipherr]

If you’re gonna give an example of a core title, Mario Kart is a bad one since it’s a go-kart racing game with massive casual appeal since it’s easy to pick up and play

:lol :lol :lol

This is what happens when you press people for a definition of 'core' gaming and force them to break it down.

You get a clear look at the nonsense in all its dumbass glory.

 

[Vinci]

I think bottles proves the ridiculousness of the "hardcore" distinction.

Also this idea that Nintendo wants someone to "graduate" from Wii Fit to Sin & Punishment is wrong. Nintendo wants to bring in new gamers and would like to get them to become full time gamers aka someone who buys games on a consistent basis (from them), casual or otherwise. However, that doesn't mean that someone who plays Peggle is ever going to start liking Metroid.

This idea that casual gaming is just a stepping stone to "real" gaming is ignorant of the fact that casual games have been around for years, is a legitimate genre and is here to stay.

I'm not suggesting casual games are bad, at all. I'm stating that Nintendo would love for people to also get tastes from one side of the spectrum to the other. That's what they'd like to see happen, but I don't think that has to happen for them to be pleased. Personally, if my parents only play Mario Kart Wii as their most complex game, that's great. It's light years better than them playing no games at all.

 

[ksamedi]

Yes, I know Wii Music was a disappointment in every way, but it didn’t bomb. However, its disappointing sales are all the more reason for Nintendo to focus on quality casual games at E3 so as not to lose momentum.

Quality wasn't the problem. Its just that the game was too hardcore for the intended audience. Besides that, only one big hit casual game can move consoles, so I don't think Nintendo will focus on only casual games at E3. I think they will have one big casual title and many traditional games as well.

 

[Flying_Phoenix]

Nintendo's E3 comeback? Or yet another disappointment?

 

[farnham]

Quality wasn't the problem. Its just that the game was too hardcore for the intended audience. Besides that, only one big hit casual game can move consoles, so I don't think Nintendo will focus on only casual games at E3. I think they will have one big casual title and many traditional games as well.

thats the ironic thing

wii music was not the waggle and music comes out deal like the socalled hardcore experts said

its actually way more sophisticated then the usual bemani music game.. the problem was that nearly noone appreciated it because they simply did not understand it..

If you don't sell 17 million, you're a fuckin failure in Miyamoto's eyes.

miyamoto made a lot of games that did not do GTA level of sales

Because the game came out in October and already stopped selling, when it was supposed to be a big mover like Mario Kart DS and Wii Play.

it did not stopped selling

the last time i checked every shop has wiimusic and animal crossing in stock

and according to the UK charts last week wii music and animal crossing are still in the top 20 of the wii charts

 

[CubeRevolution]

Club Nokia at 9 AM on June 2nd.

And then I have to jet from that conference to Sony's which I have NO IDEA where that is. :lol



That would actually be great. I don't expect it but it would be great.

This?:

 

[DeaconKnowledge]

The key point many, including those in Nintendo, miss is that the NES had an incredibly diverse library. It wasn't all light gun and power pad games, yet Nintendo now insists they must do little else.

...because dammit, even if the nunchuks and classic controllers are available they spent precious funding on those motion sensors so developers better damn well use them!

I disagree. I feel Nintendo was the first (and for a long time, the only) company to realize it takes tons of fruits to make fruit cup. Unfortunately, like any company, their resources only stretched so far, which led to a massive backlash when all that was available was Wii Music. People quickly forget that this was the company that released Zelda, Mario, Metroid, Battalion Wars, Mario Strikers, and Fire Emblem all for Wii inside of 2 years.

 

[Wii Will Rock U]

Club Nokia L.A.

If it is this one, the conference is not listed as event.

Straight from my invite e-mail:

YOU'RE INVITED:
2009 E3 Expo
Nintendo Media Briefing
Tuesday, June 2, 2009
Check-in: 7:15 a.m.
Media Briefing: 9:00 a.m.

Club NOKIA
800 W. Olympic Blvd.
Los Angeles, CA

This?:

Yeah, I think that's it. I've never been there myself, this E3 will be my first time.

 

[Shin Johnpv]

Jebus the argument on here that NSMB and Mario Kart are suddenly not core titles is one of the stupidest ones I've ever seen on GAF. That's saying a lot. Next thing you know people will be saying Madden is a core title but not NSMB.

 

[bottles]

What the hell sort of 'core' definition are you working with, man? Is Bit.Trip.Beat a 'casual' title given it looks similar to Pong? 'Easy to pick up and play' doesn't necessitate that something is a 'casual' title either. The best games of all time are ones that are easy to pick up and play but hard to master, like Tetris or Punch Out. Are those not core games?

It’s a combination of things. Accessibility and visual appeal are definitely factors in deciding whether a game is casual or core. I’d label Tetris as the most casual of casual games in existence.

Mario Galaxy turned some folks off for the same reason that Mario 64 did; some people simply do not like playing the game in 3d. They prefer 2d Mario for reasons that might have nothing to do with them being simpletons unable to grasp the logic necessary to work an analog stick.

And did I ever suggest that they were going to move from Wii Fit to Twilight Princess? Upstreaming people does not mean tossing them into the deep end of the pool after they've been swimming for a few minutes. It's about steps. Going from Wii Sports or Wii Fit to Mario Kart Wii is a step. All we're alleging is that there's no sense going back to build the first step in a staircase when the current step isn't broken.

I know several casual gamers who’ve said that playing with both the remote and the nunchuck is ‘too confusing’.

I agree about the steps, but that doesn’t mean Nintendo can go back to making the same games they made in the 32/64 and 128 bit generation. Casual gamers will not become core gamers for some time to come (rather casual gamers that play somewhat more sophisticated games), and therefore Nintendo will need to keep making games specifically catered to them.

And I'm saying there's not a lot of difference between what WoW does and what a console can do provided experiences are produced that move from one level of complexity to another. And no, many people who play WoW were never 'hardcore.' Not even remotely. My old guild had four or five 'soccer moms' that hadn't played an online game before outside of friggin' PopCap stuff. You're seriously undermining what that game has accomplished; it took what was a hardcore experience and casualized it in the early parts of the game enough to entice people to it that didn't even know what a MMO was before.

Many people who play WoW aren’t hardcore because WoW made its way into pop culture. Initially, it was definitely a game for the hardcore.

Wii Fit, Wii Sports, and Wii Play mean they don't have to make any more. It's that simple. Those titles continue to sell for a reason, and they're never going to stop. Wii Fit, by the end of this generation, will easily sell over 30 million units. They act as one's point of entry; there is no sense to add more when the ones you have already work like a charm.

The only reason Nintendo would not try to actively upstream Wii users is if they've completely taken leave of their senses.

Like I said:

Casual gamers will not become core gamers for some time to come (rather casual gamers that play somewhat more sophisticated games), and therefore Nintendo will need to keep making games specifically catered to them.

Moreover, do you actually think that every single member of Nintendo’s casual audience is gradually going to move on from entry-level games to more sophisticated games? I think many of them aren’t looking for more than Wii Sports-like experiences.

 

[Linkup]

What's frustrating is Nintendo's focus on strict casual appeal these days; games for one audience and not the other--Wii Music, Wii Fit, etc. At least Mario Kart Wii still retains this appeal that can be shared by all audiences.

Don't you mean they've rebalanced their lineup to once again include these casual titles. They should always have new IPs for the causal and new IPs for the hardcore as well as continue their bread and butter of games that cater to both. One of the problems was that they forgot that they need to continue to interest new casual gamers into the gaming market rather than just making core and hardcore titles, though I might argue that nintendo's core titles do a better job than most of pulling in new gamers. Only reason anyone can argue that nintendo has a strict casual appeal recently is because they don't have the big marketing campaigns for hardcore titles, there lineup certainly wouldn't support said claim, unless you are uninformed. Of course, gamers with no initial interest in video games is going to need more marketing to bring them in. The other games shouldn't be ignored and that is where nintendo fails and probably where the notion of strict casual appeal comes from.

 

[bottles]

Picking up and playing Mario Kart is one thing(although having seen my parents try, the wheel itself definitely has a learning curve), getting decent at it in spite of its efforts to punish your success is another.

Oh, and people know Mario, but they don't know half of the other people.

This is why I called Mario Kart Wii a core title at heart (which some people – I'm looking at Volcynika, Puncture and Scrubking – seem to have conveniently forgotten; read the fucking thread), but with massive casual appeal. I only said it’s a bad example of a core title, if you’re gonna give one in the first place.

 

[birdchili]

if you ask me if there will be a bright future for the video game market only by continuously offering products with the same structure but with different quality, or just by launching sequels to the previous big hit titles one after another, I would have to answer no.

ie: expect something that's not just ___ plus or zelda xiii.

we have come to understand that there has never been a situation where people who started playing video games with any particular game tend to quit playing soon. Regardless of the first software, those who continuously purchase additional software maintain their active game plays, and those who opt not to purchase software repeatedly will stop playing.

ie: all these new audience folk are going to be lapsed gamers fast if we don't find something new and interesting for them to play.

too much suggests that new ip is on the way for it to be just a bunch of sequels or iterations on wii ___ this fall.

 

[Vinci]

It’s a combination of things. Accessibility and visual appeal are definitely factors in deciding whether a game is casual or core. I’d label Tetris as the most casual of casual games in existence.

...

I knew this would happen. I knew that once we started moving goalposts, Tetris would eventually be considered a 'casual' game in the same vein as Wii Fit or Wii Sports.

Goddamn, I hate this generation with a passion.

Chess is now a 'casual' game. Go won't ever be; it's the Fire Emblem of competitive board games, but chess? Accessible and visually appealing. Needs a shitty looking version to prove how 'core' it is, that's the problem.

I know several casual gamers who’ve said that playing with both the remote and the nunchuck is ‘too confusing’.

And I haven't experienced this yet, and I've played the system with over 50 non-gamers by now.

I agree about the steps, but that doesn’t mean Nintendo can go back to making the same games they made in the 32/64 and 128 bit generation.

They stopped making them?

Casual gamers will not become core gamers for some time to come (rather casual gamers that play somewhat more sophisticated games), and therefore Nintendo will need to keep making games specifically catered to them.

So pandering them is going to promote growth in the hobby? That's what you're suggesting?

Many people who play WoW aren’t hardcore because WoW made its way into pop culture. Initially, it was definitely a game for the hardcore.

...

I have NO IDEA what the hell that has to do with anything.

Moreover, do you actually think that every single member of Nintendo’s casual audience is gradually going to move on from entry-level games to more sophisticated games? I think many of them aren’t looking for more than Wii Sports-like experiences.

You're literally negating at this point the entire history of most gamers. Most of us started with something relatively simple and moved on. Why should they be any different?

 

[Volcynika]

This is why I called Mario Kart Wii a core title at heart (which some people – I'm looking at Volcynika, Puncture and Scrubking – seem to have conveniently forgotten; read the fucking thread), but with massive casual appeal. I only said it’s a bad example of a core title, if you’re gonna give one in the first place.

I read the thread. You said it was a bad example of a core title, and your reasoning for it is just off.

 

[DeathbyVolcano]

Don't you mean they've rebalanced their lineup to once again include these casual titles. They should always have new IPs for the causal and new IPs for the hardcore as well as continue their bread and butter of games that cater to both. One of the problems was that they forgot that they need to continue to interest new casual gamers into the gaming market rather than just making core and hardcore titles, though I might argue that nintendo's core titles do a better job than most of pulling in new gamers. Only reason anyone can argue that nintendo has a strict casual appeal recently is because they don't have the big marketing campaigns for hardcore titles, there lineup certainly wouldn't support said claim, unless you are uninformed. Of course, gamers with no initial interest in video games is going to need more marketing to bring them in. The other games shouldn't be ignored and that is where nintendo fails and probably where the notion of strict casual appeal comes from.

Gosh man, I'd say they're doing the exact opposite. All they've been doing the past year or so is STRICTLY promoting these casual-only games, regardless of quality, and pushing off their rare hardcore titles to the wayside without hardly any promotion. Excitebots, hello? Punch-Out fans should be relieved that Nintendo is letting the world know about it.

 

[Azure J]

Damn. I thought that I had taken part in or read some seriously hilarious and head hangingly bad threads until I saw this one.

And yet, I love this one because it's doing the one thing I've wanted to see happen ever since the adoption of casual games and hardcore games as grouping terms, it's showing everyone who buys into these distinctions off as absolutely retarded.

 

[BlueSummers]

Luigi's Mansion 2
Pikmin 3
Mario Galaxy 2
Zelda Wii
Fatal Frame 4 localized
Fragile localized
NSMB 2 DSi
Retro IP
Starfox on rails wii
Kirby wii

Believe

 

[birdchili]

if you insist on putting things in boxens i find the following works well for me:

1) games i like
2) games i do not like

 

[ShockingAlberto]

There are some weird definitions of casual and core here.

Though I guess I can't talk. By my definition, Halo and GTA are as casual and mainstream as Wii Play.

 

[bottles]

...

I knew this would happen. I knew that once we started moving goalposts, Tetris would eventually be considered a 'casual' game in the same vein as Wii Fit or Wii Sports.

Goddamn, I hate this generation with a passion.

Chess is now a 'casual' game. Go won't ever be; it's the Fire Emblem of competitive board games, but chess? Accessible and visually appealing. Needs a shitty looking version to prove how 'core' it is, that's the problem.

Why don’t you define what makes a core game, then?

And I haven't experienced this yet, and I've played the system with over 50 non-gamers by now.

All right, but that’s irrelevant.

They stopped making them?

My bad. It doesn’t mean that they can go back to exclusively making those games.

So pandering them is going to promote growth in the hobby?

Eventually, yes.

...

I have NO IDEA what the hell that has to do with anything.

Really?

And no, many people who play WoW were never 'hardcore.' Not even remotely. My old guild had four or five 'soccer moms' that hadn't played an online game before outside of friggin' PopCap stuff. You're seriously undermining what that game has accomplished; it took what was a hardcore experience and casualized it in the early parts of the game enough to entice people to it that didn't even know what a MMO was before.

You're literally negating at this point the entire history of most gamers. Most of us started with something relatively simple and moved on. Why should they be any different?

Age could be a reason, as could lifestyle.

 

[SilverLunar]

if you insist on putting things in boxens i find the following works well for me:

1) games i like
2) games i do not like

This works great for me too.

By some people's definition here, I am a casual gamer because i only bought the market leader's consoles/handhelds since the NES.

 

[Azure J]

This works great for me too.

By some people's definition here, I am a casual gamer because i only bought the market leader's consoles/handhelds since the NES.

By GAF standards, I'm a casual hardcore gamer. Beat that! :lol

 

[Tim the Wiz]

I’d label Tetris as the most casual of casual games in existence.

Revisionism at its worst. I remember when the term "hardcore" actually meant something, but now it's also used to typify mass-market drivel, simply because those games are in the "right" genre.

 

[MoogPaul]

How can New Super Mario Bros and Mario Kart not be core titles? If the core audience of the Wii appears to be mostly casual gamers, wouldn't Mario Kart be the corest game on the system?

 

[tengiants]

What the hell does core mean? I'm just guessing 'core means hardcore, but it seems like someone who is a hardcore gamer would just be someone who plays games a lot. Trying to fit in a genre or accessibility of a game into the definition is just self-serving and not a well thought out statement.

If it is actually meant like core, like there is some sort of archetype game out there every game is trying to achive.. that's dumb too. Hopefully the word core in reference to gaming is stigmatized soon.

 

[DeaconKnowledge]

How can New Super Mario Bros and Mario Kart not be core titles? If the core audience of the Wii appears to be mostly casual gamers, wouldn't Mario Kart be the corest game on the system?

No because a lot of people bought it so now its casual.

 

[Linkup]

Luigi's Mansion 2
Pikmin 3
Mario Galaxy 2
Zelda Wii
Fatal Frame 4 localized
Fragile localized
NSMB 2 DSi
Retro IP
Starfox on rails wii
Kirby wii

Believe

Pretty sure he said new proposals, which basically means new IPs. At least I think that's what he's said in the past and it has usually translated into a new IP. Doesn't mean what's listed won't happen just that they probably have an unannounced new IP to show off at some point with E3 likely. I'd also go a bit farther and say it's a M+ only title.

 

[radioheadrule83]

Casual / core argument in this thread =

Speculation on what games Iwata could be talking about =

 

[MoogPaul]

No because a lot of people bought it so now its casual.

I knew it! I love watching those stupid casual gamers wait in line at midnight for WoW or Gears or Metal Gear Solid. I'm going home to play my hardcore Personal Training: Cooking. Gaming "terms" are good fun.

 

[bottles]

Revisionism at its worst. I remember when the term "hardcore" actually meant something, but now it's also used to typify mass-market drivel, simply because those games are in the "right" genre.

Tetris is easily accessible, playable in short sessions, visually (minimalistic and thus) appealing to a large audience, simple in its core mechanics, etc.

Why is it a core game again?

No because a lot of people bought it so now its casual.

Dumbass of the day.

 

[Sadist]

If we go by that logic, everything that sells millions of copies (like CoD, MGS, Gears of War, Oblivion, GTA IV etc.) is all casual. Right.

 

[MoogPaul]

ITT: GAF forgets what sarcasm is.

 

[Aru]

I want a modern or futuristic Zelda game, FPS style.
Like... Link with a light saber or something like that :lol