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[chubigans]

It was stupid to compare the two devices based on their vision.

I never, ever once compared them to decide who was the victor. I made sure never to say it was Kinect vs Move. I have no idea where you're getting that from.

Game devices are part hardware part software. We know one of them continues to improve as developers learn to take advantage of the hardware over its lifecycle. Your analogy doesn't work.

Which is why I'm only comparing the unchanging hardware aspect, not software that evolves over time. I only matched the visions with the software when it would fit. Otherwise, I would make a good logical assumption as to whether or not something could be done using the hardware. You can do that with final hardware specs like Kinect.

 

[farnham]

Yes, use the worst examples possible to make a point. Maybe I should offer as examples of casual gaming Wii petz to make my "point" too then. Anyway, even these games offer ten times the experience of Wii Sports. At least they make an impression unlike Wii Sports that is so barebones and simple that the only thing you can remember after a while is how boring it became.

well i got that you hate wii sports. but there is no need to act like that is a general opinion on the game.

 

[fortified_concept]

well i got that you hate wii sports. but there is no need to act like that is a general opinion on the game.

I was describing the boredom part as a personal experience. I certainly don't expect the grandma playing with her 10 year old grandson to get bored that easily. Afterall this kind of games are made for them.

 

[cgcg]

The PSEye has been out for years and nobody attempted it. There's a reason for that. Something like that would only be possible in perfect lighting conditions and thus would never be reliable in the real world. You will see very few if any at all try to do something like that. Dance Central tracks your individual limbs and shows you in real-time what you're doing wrong and gives you a score.

Here's the best Sony themselves could come up with:

http://vimeo.com/14317686

Try not to bust out laughing. Yeah that looks as accurate or fun as Dance Central :lol



It's possible just like Just Dance is possible but giving you the exact same experience as Kinect is entirely different matter altogether.

This has to be a joke right? :lol

This was done on the original Eyetoy. Please enlighten us how this is different than what Dance Central's doing?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Au4d5anfjnA

If you still don't get it after watching the video here's a hint: look at the yellow silhouette.

 

[Flachmatuch]

Yes, use the worst examples possible to make a point. Maybe I should offer as examples of casual gaming Wii petz to make my "point" too then.

We were talking about the Wii... series of Nintendo games and Wii Sports in particular, so I'm not sure how the hell you could bring anything else into the discussion.

Anyway, even these games offer ten times the experience of Wii Sports. At least they make an impression unlike Wii Sports that is so barebones and simple that the only thing you can remember after a while is how boring it became.

For you. That's what I meant by "a certain type of experience for a certain type of people". Wii Sports is a different experience for different kind of people, except it works for a lot more people, and probably for a longer time than it takes to complete Bioshock. If you think those people are all idiots for enjoying Wii Sports and not a game you consider sophisticated...well, I'll consider this the arrogance of youth :-D You'll grow out of it, if I'm allowed to be somewhat patronising :-D

Did I mention anywhere in my post I didn't like SS2 or Deux Ex? Bioshock is a different game which I also appreciate. And it's more than "complicated" enough to make a great modern game. Btw Bioshock is neither generic nor primitive.

We're not talking about what games you like, noone really cares about that, except yourself. I mentioned SS2 and Deus Ex because you claimed that games are evolving, and they're kind of contrary to that point.

And if you read more than comic books and internet forums, Bioshock is in fact primitive.

Last but not least, I have mentioned a million times in this thread that I don't give a flying fuck what's popular (since I consider the majority of consumers idiots) but you keep squeezing it into the discussion as if I care or as if the popularity of a game translates to quality or creativity.

Ahh, so you really do consider people whom you don't understand idiots, and you're thinking that you're above the "majority of consumers".

Thing is, Bioshock and MW and most of the big budget games are made based on established rules, well-known techniques, recognised and obvious patterns, with minimal changes and innovations in gameplay; they're generic, predictable and lack any creativity, exactly because they're made for a very well understood audience. They're based around a handful of plot patterns and another handful of settings and gameplay mechanisms that people have proven to like. They're engineered for maximum appeal to this audience. This isn't really rocket science, sorry if you can't see that. Well, it's good for these companies if people form into consumer groups who think they're superior because they consume product A or B, without recognising they're still eating crap. (BTW, there's nothing wrong with this, I could easily play a new Tales game every month, because I like that kind of stuff - but I'd never say they're superior to what someone else likes. (Although there are games that are offensive for other reasons, like MW.))

Wii Sports etc are creating another such audience of course, but the Wii... things were the first games to do that, that's part of why they're creative (although the EyeToy came earlier and I'm sure there are other examples too). The casual market is also becoming similar to the traditional one already.

 

[fortified_concept]

We were talking about the Wii... series of Nintendo games and Wii Sports in particular, so I'm not sure how the hell you could bring anything else into the discussion.

We were talking about how it's difficult to be considered creative if you focus on casual games.

For you. That's what I meant by "a certain type of experience for a certain type of people". Wii Sports is a different experience for different kind of people, except it works for a lot more people, and probably for a longer time than it takes to complete Bioshock. If you think those people are all idiots for enjoying Wii Sports and not a game you consider sophisticated...well, I'll consider this the arrogance of youth :-D You'll grow out of it, if I'm allowed to be somewhat patronising :-D

Like I explained with my Grey's Anatomy example not all people who play these games are stupid but the stupid ones definitely tend to love these games.

We're not talking about what games you like, noone really cares about that, except yourself. I mentioned SS2 and Deus Ex because you claimed that games are evolving, and they're kind of contrary to that point.

And if you read more than comic books and internet forums, Bioshock is in fact primitive.

Yes they're evolving. They've evolved from Tetris to 2D Mario to Bioshock. That doesn't mean you can't find exceptions or that the evolution is constant without corrections.

Ahh, so you really do consider people whom you don't understand idiots, and you're thinking that you're above the "majority of consumers".

Thing is, Bioshock and MW and most of the big budget games are made based on established rules, well-known techniques, recognised and obvious patterns, with minimal changes and innovations in gameplay; they're generic, predictable and lack any creativity, exactly because they're made for a very well understood audience. They're based around a handful of plot patterns and another handful of settings and gameplay mechanisms that people have proven to like. They're engineered for maximum appeal to this audience. This isn't really rocket science, sorry if you can't see that. Well, it's good for these companies if people form into consumer groups who think they're superior because they consume product A or B, without recognising they're still eating crap. (BTW, there's nothing wrong with this, I could easily play a new Tales game every month, because I like that kind of stuff - but I'd never say they're superior to what someone else likes. (Although there are games that are offensive for other reasons, like MW.))

Wii Sports etc are creating another such audience of course, but the Wii... things were the first games to do that, that's part of why they're creative (although the EyeToy came earlier and I'm sure there are other examples too). The casual market is also becoming similar to the traditional one already.

Yes I think the vast majority of humanity are morons and this can be proven by their choices, beliefs and the world they've created. And btw I can't believe you're comparing Wii Sports's simplicity to Bioshock. It's insulting beyond imagination.

 

[SolidusDave]

This has to be a joke right? :lol

This was done on the original Eyetoy. Please enlighten us how this is different than what Dance Central's doing?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Au4d5anfjnA

If you still don't get it after watching the video here's a hint: look at the yellow silhouette.

Still cracks me up that this is called Kinetic :lol It looks so much better than that Ubisoft Kinect Fitness game.


btw. why do the "background" dancers in that Kinect dancing game even bother? They are not tracked or even displayed in any way. That's like playing air guitar behind guys playing Rock Band. :lol

 

[cakefoo]

To the people who use Dance Central as an example of Kinect's ability- go out on launch day and film yourself dancing on the diagnostic/raw data screen doing dance moves. Oh, sure, Kinect will smoothly track your limbs if you do nice, calm snow angels on the diagnostic screen, and it'll thumb up or down you for mimicking preset dance moves in Dance Central, but I want to know if the system really is good enough to track and identify your limbs as they're moving that fast without relying on the smoke and mirrors.

 

[farnham]

Yes I think the vast majority of humanity are morons and this can be proven by their choices, beliefs and the world they've created.

let me guess. anyone who doesnt agree with you is a moron amirite ?

And btw I can't believe you're comparing Wii Sports's simplicity to Bioshock. It's insulting beyond imagination.

What he said was that Bioshock is a natural evolution of system shock 2 in terms of its core game mechanic Wii sports has no such predecessor. its a game sui generis. the first of its kind. He did not say anything about quality or complexity.

 

[Sydle]

I never, ever once compared them to decide who was the victor. I made sure never to say it was Kinect vs Move. I have no idea where you're getting that from.


Which is why I'm only comparing the unchanging hardware aspect, not software that evolves over time. I only matched the visions with the software when it would fit. Otherwise, I would make a good logical assumption as to whether or not something could be done using the hardware. You can do that with final hardware specs like Kinect.

You're right, that's my bad. It was a knee jerk reaction to the usual Kinect and Move tripe I read on GAF. My sincere apologies. And, not that I'm excusing myself in any way, but in the future you might find a more productive discussion if you keep the two seperate.

May be needless to say, but that notion influenced my perspective on the rest of the article. Re-reading it puts that in perspective. The only points I'll argue that may be addressed by software:

Scanning Real-World Objects
This one could be accomplished with software. Kinect simply sees the device and the software recognizes certain characteristics. A game like Tony Hawk would have a limited bank of objects it would have to recognize. This could be done for just about any game. I agree that the downgraded resolution makes the decal scanning almost out of the question.

Family Play
I believe tracking multiple people is something that the software will eventually address as they learn tricks to process the data.

Body Tracking/Monster Gameplay
Again, this is something that may be addressed by software as tricks are learned to process the data without your full body. The would be able to interpret someone moving closer as movement for the character.

I've said my peace and my apologies. I'm out of this thread.

 

[fortified_concept]

let me guess. anyone who doesnt agree with you is a moron amirite ?

You should hang out more in the OT. You'll learn things.

 

[cakefoo]

The PSEye has been out for years and nobody attempted it. There's a reason for that. Something like that would only be possible in perfect lighting conditions and thus would never be reliable in the real world. You will see very few if any at all try to do something like that. Dance Central tracks your individual limbs and shows you in real-time what you're doing wrong and gives you a score.

Here's the best Sony themselves could come up with:

http://vimeo.com/14317686

Try not to bust out laughing. Yeah that looks as accurate or fun as Dance Central :lol

When you say "the best" try to actually showcase a good dancer, not just some dude who's too embarrassed to move:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hxLBIcFnwvY#t=20s

Also, Kung Fu Live shows what skeletal tracking can be done with 2D cameras.

And it's possible Dance Central will be coming to Move, but not Wii: http://kotaku.com/5569957/harmonix-dance-central-could-come-to-ps3-but-not-wii

 

[farnham]

You should hang out more in the OT. You'll learn things.

people that are talked about in the OT, either if they are forum members or if they are some random people brought up by the press maybe did moronic things. but everyone makes mistakes. its unfair to say those peoples are morons just because of some mistakes they made.

 

[Flachmatuch]

We were talking about how it's difficult to be considered creative if you focus on casual games.

Well, I thought you were talking about how Wii Sports is not creative.

Like I explained with my Grey's Anatomy example not all people who play these games are stupid but the stupid ones definitely tend to love these games.

But if you really look at it, this is supported by nothing, but your own preferences in games.

Yes they're evolving. They've evolved from Tetris to 2D Mario to Bioshock. That doesn't mean you can't find exceptions or that the evolution is constant without corrections.

Well, I'd like to hear about your theory of "game evolution", and why you think Mario is more "evolved" than Tetris and Bioshock is more "evolved" than Mario. But tbh I don't think you know what you're talking about - you can see, superficially, that Bioshock is technically superior to SMB, but I'd like you to analyze their gameplay and explain to me how, according to what metrics is one "more evolved" than the other. I don't think you could do that.

Anyway, games are evolving of course, but the big money (console) video game market is not where that's happening. Bioshock, for example, is not an "evolution" compared to SS2, it's a streamlined version made fit for a well-known market. These games are all products based on very well understood stuff, with basically no risks taken and no innovation, apart from the obvious safe stuff and minor bells and whistles. Wii... is kind of influencing that market too, which doesn't happen very often.

Yes I think the vast majority of humanity are morons and this can be proven by their choices, beliefs and the world they've created.

And you're obviously the best person to judge humanity :-D Seriously, don't go this way. If you really think that most people are dumber than you, you're on the right track to becoming a narrow minded moron yourself.

And btw I can't believe you're comparing Wii Sports's simplicity to Bioshock. It's insulting beyond imagination.

Well, I don't think I could write anything that doesn't sound utterly patronising in reply to this.

 

[PopcornMegaphone]

fortified_concept, I'd step away from the keyboard. You're getting absolutely dismantled by Flachmatuch. It's tough to watch.

 

[LiquidMetal14]

fortified_concept, I'd step away from the keyboard. You're getting absolutely dismantled by Flachmatuch. It's tough to watch.

Step back and read it a little more.

 

[PopcornMegaphone]

Step back and read it a little more.

Oh I'm reading it. He's completely absurd.

 

[LiquidMetal14]

Oh I'm reading it. He's completely absurd.

Alrighty :O

 

[UntoldDreams]

Hmm...

The topic is wandering around near aimlessly.

One point did come out of this is that people's definitions of creativity and success vary wildly and those fundamental definitions make a straight 1 to 1 argument difficult to gauge.

Example:
Apple & Nintendo can be appreciated for their simplicity in that they try not to put anything beyond their "exact" design into play.

Sony & Google are more likely to create a neat gizmo-doodad which has a boat load of features and many of these features are not immediately even useful. (How on Earth did Sony design hardware to run 3D TV's, games & movies 3 years ago? That's pretty crazy.)

From these two vantage points it could be said things like:
"Wii sports is ridiculous compare it to the 100+ new features in Uncharted 2"
"The iPod is ridiculous every other major competitor has 20+ better features at a lower price"

Both the statements above are factual from a certain view but that does not make them "bad". Nor does it make ANY sense to claim Sony / Google aren't being creative in their endeavors. They dump a ton of creative mindshare at their tasks.

I absolutely DO love when Google puts out something almost "stupidly neat" even though I'm not exactly sure how it is going to be useful.

Sony dumped like 1 billion into the cell processor in the hopes of making a brand new consumer market for supercomputer chips. End result they have enough leftover CPU power to run 3D on a tv set. (As soon as 3D camera's & video camcorders appear on the scene Sony's master plan will make much more sense btw since no one on Earth is going to say they dislike having 3D pictures of their children to keep)

So then... is Wii sports creative? Surely so. Its something which their best minds put time into to craft like an iPod. Everything that was placed into the design and everything NOT placed into the design was well thought out.

Some people will appreciate Apple and others appreciate Google.

We don't need have to have conflict on these philosophies.

 

[Eteric Rice]

I'm talking about making motion control standard, not actually making motion control. I thought that was clear.

Yeah, if we wanted to talk about making motion controls... Well...

If I remember correctly, it used IR as well (though it sucked).

This stuff has probably existed forever.

 

[StealthGoblin]

Its like a boxing match.

At the announcement of the fight Kinect brought out some big gun promoters to hype up the fact it was going to pound Move into the ground and the crowd loved it, whereas Move brought its trainers on to demonstrate some of its punches and blocks in front of a crowd.

People went away from the announcement thinking 'Oh, Move is screwed. Smart money is on Kinect'. Bets were made.

Suddenly Microsoft realised that their boxer weighed too much around October 2009 and put him on a diet, a diet that altered his vision and messed with his mind meaning it would require the trainers to call the shots at the side of the ring. Trainers work desperately behind the scenes to get the boxers movement as accurate in the ring as possible but there is a noticeable delay between their guy thinking about a punch, and then putting that punch into motion. Trainers go back to work on it even more. Boxer goes outside and whenever the media see him between then and his next big showing, he's always pictured and filmed playing with a big red ball. People begin to wonder. . .

Videos emerge showing that Move had been in training for the best part of a decade and people who had seen him in the ring tell everyone he can land some powerful accurate punches. People begin to wonder.

Move goes on a promotional tour to GDC and demonstrates some of his moves in front of the crowd. People start to think 'Wow, he might be able to do this after all', though his audience is a tad casual at the moment.

E3 2010 and another promo event where the contenders get a few practice punches in. Kinect can't punch as far as we had expected and all his fans appear to be children or mothers. His promoter reassures us everything will be fine, that this fight will change the world and that Kinect will take this easy. Move steps up on stage and tells us he's gonna land some precise punches and spellbind us with his in ring movement.

Pricing is announced and Kinect is selling tickets to all his fans at a whopping $150, whereas Move has a wider range of ticket prices to entice more fans in.

The fights not too far away now and Kinects promoter will be putting advertisements everywhere, hyping up his man. Move can't compete on the marketing front but puts out a series of videos demonstrating how precise and reliable he is.

On the way to the ring. Move gets in, gets ready. Prepares to sting like a butterfly and sting like a bee. Kinect enters to a massive roar, the promotion has clearly worked, soccer mothers are everywhere. People try to complain about the price they've paid to enter, but Kinect can't understand them because they are speaking Spanish, or German, or French, or Italian, or Finish.

Something like that. Exaggerated I know. Its a joke so don't get all shirty.

 

[venne]

I never knew there were so many motion control zealots on GAF.

It's all stupid outside the party game sphere.

 

[enewtabie]

I didn't really think much of Kinect or the Move at first,but now I'm definitely picking up some Kinect games and I'll probably buy Move also.

 

[Norml]

The reality is there almost no buzz for Move while there is quite a bit of buzz for Kinect probably because the concept is very new while the Move seems like a copy cat project. Judging from the game demos, it looks like MS has managed to pull off their initial vision in a seamless jump in and play way. The constant calibration you have to do for the Move before every game compared to the jump in and play capability of the Kinect shows that MS has delivered on the user friendliness required to pull in casual users where Sony simply hasn't.

Most discussion about Kinect is problems or limitations though and not buzz/hype ,just like most of this thread.

 

[ralexand]

Smart money is still on Kinect. Gaf and other hardcore gamers are the ones bashing Kinect but they did the same for the Wii. There is simply little buzz for a product that's releasing in a week or so. That's easy to see?

 

[StealthGoblin]

Most discussion about Kinect is problems or limitations though and not buzz/hype ,just like most of this thread.

Not outside of the net though. Casual hype is Kinect orientated. Move looks to be the best package overall for Casual and 'core' players. Sony can't market enough though.

 

[AceBandage]

Smart money is still on Kinect. Gaf and other hardcore gamers are the ones bashing but Kinect but they did the same for the Wii. There is simply little buzz for a product that's releasing in a week or so. That's easy to see?

$150 for an add on to a system that has "hardcore only" ingrained all over it is not "smart money".
If anything, they'll both be moderate successes, but we'll see very little real support for them.

 

[ralexand]

Most discussion about Kinect is problems or limitations though and not buzz/hype ,just like most of this thread.

Gaf doesn't equal the real world. Kinect has been demoed in multiple game conferences since e3 and haven't heard or seen alot of complaints about it not working.

 

[LiquidMetal14]

Smart money is still on Kinect. Gaf and other hardcore gamers are the ones bashing but Kinect but they did the same for the Wii. There is simply little buzz for a product that's releasing in a week or so. That's easy to see?

Where are you in PS3 threads? Little buzz, read the internet and step into some threads once in a while.

And little buzz or not, the device is delivering on its promise. If you don't believe, read the thread I made. If you dare.

 

[ralexand]

$150 for an add on to a system that has "hardcore only" ingrained all over it is not "smart money".
If anything, they'll both be moderate successes, but we'll see very little real support for them.

Fine, you say moderate success and I'm saying must have item this holiday season. We'll see who's right in a couple of months and for the Move a week.

 

[ralexand]

Where are you in PS3 threads? Little buzz, read the internet and step into some threads once in a while.

And little buzz or not, the device is delivering on its promise. If you don't believe, read the thread I made. If you dare.

I have no doubt that gaf ps3 gamers are super hyped but that doesn't represent the casual market that will equal Wii type success.

 

[AceBandage]

Fine, you say moderate success and I'm saying must have item this holiday season. We'll see who's right in a couple of months and for the Move a week.

Sorry, but that spot has already been taken (by force) by the 3DS.

 

[LiquidMetal14]

I have no doubt that gaf ps3 gamers are super hyped but that doesn't represent the casual market that will equal Wii type success.

I'm more in line in talking about the thread topic, the Move is definitely delivering on it's promise.

 

[ralexand]

Sorry, but that spot has already been taken (by force) by the 3DS.

Not releasing this holiday season in the states.

 

[ralexand]

I'm more in line in talking about the thread topic, the Move is definitely delivering on it's promise.

Not that difficult to deliver on the promise of a more accurate Wii.

 

[Igo]

This has to be a joke right? :lol

This was done on the original Eyetoy. Please enlighten us how this is different than what Dance Central's doing?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Au4d5anfjnA

If you still don't get it after watching the video here's a hint: look at the yellow silhouette.

This shit cracks me up. Sony have these games and this tech and aren't re-purposing it for the Move launch. I don't get it.

Does the Move controller have a mic in it? I don't quite understand how you dance and sing in Singstar Dance.

 

[-Pyromaniac-]

I want to buy the Move but I can't afford it. FML. That's pretty much all I have to add to this discussion =(

 

[Pinzer]

[3DS] not releasing this holiday season in the states.

We don't know that yet. Nintendo said Reggie was wrong.

 

[StealthGoblin]

This shit cracks me up. Sony have these games and this tech and aren't re-purposing it for the Move launch. I don't get it.

Does the Move controller have a mic in it? I don't quite understand how you dance and sing in Singstar Dance.

Should just put these on PSN. Hell, I'd get one or two.

 

[mujun]

Not outside of the net though. Casual hype is Kinect orientated. Move looks to be the best package overall for Casual and 'core' players. Sony can't market enough though.

How exactly does Move look like the best package for Casual?

Gameswise it's too early to tell which looks like the best package for any group and surely a no controller system is much more attractive than one with "scary" looking controllers.

 

[StealthGoblin]

How exactly does Move look like the best package for Casual?

Gameswise it's too early to tell which looks like the best package for any group and surely a no controller system is much more attractive than one with "scary" looking controllers.

I mean for both casual and core on the same device. Kinect doesn't have anything 'core' yet, so I meant that in the one motion control solution, Move has more of both bases covered at this point.

 

[cgcg]

Not that difficult to deliver on the promise of a more accurate Wii.

On the other hand it's pretty difficult to deliver on the promise of a more accurate Eyetoy.

 

[TheExecutive]

I agree with this.



Here's where I disagree. If the concept videos and tech sheets declare that certain things are possible, but the launch software doesn't showcase those features, then for all intents and purposes it's the same as if those features weren't there to begin with. Therefore, it's fair game for people to decide that (for now) the device doesn't live up to the vision.

This opinion could change in the future, when and if software is produced that utilizes these features. Until that time, though, we can only compare what they showed back then (E3 2009) to what they've shown up until now (September 2010).

This post is correct.

 

[ralexand]

On the other hand it's pretty difficult to deliver on the promise of a more accurate Eyetoy.

It truly is. You're talking about a multi-joint skeletal tracking system without the glow markers all in a $150 package.

 

[Dead Man]

I can't believe how much venom and spite there is in this thread. I should not be surprised, but I am.

 

[mujun]

I can't believe how much venom and spite there is in this thread. I should not be surprised, but I am.

It's like a hardware launch fanboy show down but in the middle of the current gen's lifecycle :lol

 

[Dead Man]

It's like a hardware launch fanboy show down but in the middle of the current gen's lifecycle :lol

Exactly! :lol

 

[fortified_concept]

But if you really look at it, this is supported by nothing, but your own preferences in games.

Yeah, sure. Because I bet all these casuals including grandmas and grandpas or soccer moms and their preadolescent children must be fucking geniuses. Fact is, that even if they are geniuses there's something called education (free translation) about each sector of entertainment. If you had never listened to music again, sure, Justin Bieber's music would sound like a masterpiece to you (and you probably wouldn't get other more subtle or hardcore kinds of music) but the more you listen the more your standards raise. Casuals have no fucking gaming "education" that's why their standards are so horribly low and that's a fact.

Well, I'd like to hear about your theory of "game evolution", and why you think Mario is more "evolved" than Tetris and Bioshock is more "evolved" than Mario. But tbh I don't think you know what you're talking about - you can see, superficially, that Bioshock is technically superior to SMB, but I'd like you to analyze their gameplay and explain to me how, according to what metrics is one "more evolved" than the other. I don't think you could do that.

Is this a serious question? Because gameplay evolved, it became more complicated, a new dimension was introduced, stories and character you sometimes can relate to appeared, better more believable graphics helped in that interaction, mystery and suspense became part of the game etc etc.

Anyway, games are evolving of course, but the big money (console) video game market is not where that's happening. Bioshock, for example, is not an "evolution" compared to SS2, it's a streamlined version made fit for a well-known market. These games are all products based on very well understood stuff, with basically no risks taken and no innovation, apart from the obvious safe stuff and minor bells and whistles. Wii... is kind of influencing that market too, which doesn't happen very often.

This has already been replied to in my previous post. The evolution is not perfect without corrections or problems. I'm glad you agree though that there is evolution. I wonder why you keep arguing if in the end you agree with my point.

And you're obviously the best person to judge humanity :-D Seriously, don't go this way. If you really think that most people are dumber than you, you're on the right track to becoming a narrow minded moron yourself.

This is a discussion for OT. A discussion you won't win because of the vast ignorance and stupidity of humanity on matters of politics, religion, creation etc. Most of them are just idiots without a shred of critical thinking.

 

[Mr.Green]

Premature thread is premature.

 

[akachan ningen]

Premature thread is premature.

played out meme is played out.