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[Chrange]

played out meme is played out.

I haven't read the whole thread, but has he played any games on the final version of either one? Seems like the 'premature' tag is pretty accurate otherwise.

 

[OldJadedGamer]

I mean for both casual and core on the same device. Kinect doesn't have anything 'core' yet, so I meant that in the one motion control solution, Move has more of both bases covered at this point.

Move doesn't cover the casual as it's $400 before tax just to get it in your door. That's not a very casual price point. And that is for only one wand (many commercials/ads current are always showing two). What the Move is good and and what is doing well right now is grabbing the current PS3 audience looking for something new to add to their current system.

 

[akachan ningen]

I haven't read the whole thread, but has he played any games on the final version of either one? Seems like the 'premature' tag is pretty accurate otherwise.

I was referring to the meme of " ______ thing is ______." I used it ironically there, see?

 

[patsu]

Move doesn't cover the casual as it's $400 before tax just to get it in your door. That's not a very casual price point. And that is for only one wand (many commercials/ads current are always showing two). What the Move is good and and what is doing well right now is grabbing the current PS3 audience looking for something new to add to their current system.

It does cover casuals. The family members of core gamers. And perhaps rich casuals (who may have bought PS3 for Blu-ray).

But not as broad base as Wii.

 

[onipex]

No.

I have not seen anything from either one of them that makes them worth buying.

Kinect had the most promise but seems to be missing the mark by a mile. Maybe there will be a lot more in the finial product then what is currently know.

Move:

It can do some things the wiimote can't, but I have not seen anything that makes me believe that it will actually improve much of what the Wiimote does. Motion plus has already enchanced the controls.


Software will be the real test for these devices. The consoles have always had more support than the Wii so maybe devs will actually try with these motion controllers.

btw I can't believe people in this thread are actually excited for games that are getting motion patches. I will be excited about new games built around these devices.

 

[cgcg]

It truly is. You're talking about a multi-joint skeletal tracking system without the glow markers all in a $150 package.

What a bargain. Heard it comes with optional seating and languages as well.

 

[fortified_concept]

btw I can't believe people in this thread are actually excited for games that are getting motion patches. I will be excited about new games built around these devices.

If there's one reason for me to be the least bit excited about Move is the motion patches on core games or new core games that aren't Move-centric but will still use it since Move due to its accuracy is as close as a console controller can be to a KB/M solution. The problem and the reason I'm still not convinced yet is that apparently they're dumbing down that solution not to give an unfair advantage to people with Move (Killzone 3 obviously does that) which btw fucking sucks.

 

[Mojojo]

What the Move is good and and what is doing well right now is grabbing the current PS3 audience looking for something new to add to their current system.

Really? It sures didn't grab me. When they make a game on par with some of the best PS3 titles, but that can only be played with the Move, please wake me up. I have zero interest in Move as an 'alternate' control method over DS3.
I see the necessity of the Move over DS3 only for augmented reality stuff, but there aren't any games around this concept, only the glorified tamagotchi monkey and other tech demos.

 

[onipex]

If there's one reason for me to be the least bit excited about Move is the motion patches on core games or new core games that aren't Move-centric but will still use it since Move due to its accuracy is as close as a console controller can be to a KB/M solution. The problem and the reason I'm still not convinced yet is that apparently they're dumbing down that solution not to give an unfair advantage to people with Move (Killzone 3 obviously does that) which btw fucking sucks.

That is why it does not excite me. The game changes a lot with motion added. In many cases it becomes easier to play. I don't want to play games I played before with new controls that make the game easier. I got very bored with the new play contole games for the wii for that reason.

Even if the games played better with motion I would rather have a new game built around it. Of course there will be some, but there is currently not enough to excite me.

To be fair it also could be that motion controles just are not exciting to me anymore. I've been playing those games for years now. It would take a lot for me to spend extra money just to play them on another console.

 

[krypt0nian]

Kinect to me is still Milo to me. Mostly smoke and mirrors.

Down the road who knows.



Move came to fruition for me with TTP's excellent vids over on iWaggle. He is a one man sales force.

 

[Firewire]

What the Move is good and and what is doing well right now is grabbing the current PS3 audience looking for something new to add to their current system.

Bullshit!

 

[Belfast]

oops

 

[RedStep]

Kinect to me is still Milo to me. Mostly smoke and mirrors.

I'm keeping out of this strange conversation (mostly), but this is a bizarre comment. We know exactly what Kinect is and what it can do. How can Kinect Sports, etc. be "smoke and mirrors"? Are you saying that it's just pretending to track the player?

 

[mujun]

Kinect to me is still Milo to me. Mostly smoke and mirrors.

Down the road who knows.



Move came to fruition for me with TTP's excellent vids over on iWaggle. He is a one man sales force.

Move is delivering for sure. Pity is it's delivering on something that in many ways the Wii has already delivered on.

Kinect has a long way to go before it delivers on many of the things it promised. Still it has a potential that the Move doesn't.

 

[AranhaHunter]

I poop myself a little when I think of The Show and all the possibilities.

Real question, how would you field with Move? I can see batting and even pitching, but fielding would be nearly impossible to do with any kind of depth unless it was like Wii Sports Baseball

When you say "the best" try to actually showcase a good dancer, not just some dude who's too embarrassed to move:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hxLBIcFnwvY#t=20s

More vids of hot girls dancing to Singstar Dance and Dance Central please.

 

[Belfast]

I'm keeping out of this strange conversation (mostly), but this is a bizarre comment. We know exactly what Kinect is and what it can do. How can Kinect Sports, etc. be "smoke and mirrors"? Are you saying that it's just pretending to track the player?

Not pretending, but probably struggling to do some of the things that were promoted early on.

At the end of the day, Kinect sounds like the future, but has pigeonholed itself as perhaps the most limited of all the motion platforms. In theory, it *could* provide experiences that Move and Wii can't, but I don't see how it works well with more traditional games.

Remotes already remove players from the precision and accessibility of a traditional controller to a degree, and going full-body just takes that to the next level.

I think the main problem is 3d movement on a 2d plane. Remotes are a hybrid format that can provide some of the more exciting aspects of motion control with traditional, button-based play.

What Kinect claims, or tries, to do, I don't think can reliably work with a television screen alone. And I doubt it will be as relevant until we get access to something along the lines of a Holodeck where our actions *can* actually interact with the virtual world we are immersed in.

Removing controllers entirely removes tactile feedback, which is an essentially component for gaming. For instance, a racing game benefits from an actual wheel or stick because grip and resistance let you know how far you're turning and how hard you should do so. Same with the gas pedal, there's a tactile sensation of pressure when you're pushing on one that allows you to gauge speed.

Take these things out and the experience feels, well... hollow. Empty. Because there's nothing there.

Kinect is *severely* limited, ironically, by cutting out the middle-man of a controller. Games that *do* incorporate the controller for most actions will work better, but then that kind of defeats the point (not to mention the marketing push).

Nonetheless, it'll probably play well enough at retail. Casual consumers bought into waggle, and they'll probably buy into this. Because it *sounds* good on paper, it *feels* like it should be the future, but the artifice breaks down once you really start to examine it. Most people don't care or bother to look at it that deeply. It's a neat toy to them, nothing more.

If it can survive the initial push, I'd give Move the long-term advantage.

 

[Dacvak]

Kinect sucked all-around. One of the least fun gaming experiences at PAX. Move was pretty solid, but some of the software was rather sketchy and gimmicky, which is to be expected.

But, God, I did NOT expect Kinect to be so revolting. It's actually terrible.

 

[Unknown One]

What lag? TTP's review has put that BS to rest.

People are so quick to judge. The lag is based of the games really. There are some Move games that reacted smoothly and then there is Tiger Woods Move Golf game that lags. It's up to the developers to get it right.

 

[distrbnce]

Move is delivering for sure. Pity is it's delivering on something that in many ways the Wii has already delivered on.

Kinect has a long way to go before it delivers on many of the things it promised. Still it has a potential that the Move doesn't.

Weird recurring sentiment in this thread:

1. Buttonless gaming is just the most innovative thing (though it's been tried and sucks)

2. Buttonless gaming offers more potential (though there isn't any evidence to that effect)

...don't cut off my hands until you can read my mind...

 

[fortified_concept]

Weird recurring sentiment in this thread:

1. Buttonless gaming is just the most innovative thing (though it's been tried and sucks)

2. Buttonless gaming offers more potential (though there isn't any evidence to that effect)

...don't cut off my hands until you can read my mind...

Agreed. I'd like to know how people are figuring out there's potential. Are there examples or ideas about how this potential can be harnessed on Kinect?

And can someone explain to me how a buttonless control solution can have so much potential (which implies there are much more stuff hidden under the hood that haven't been realized yet) when it's the most barebones and most limited of all control methods while more complex control methods that give developers many more control options don't have so much potential?

 

[UntoldDreams]

Agreed. I'd like to know how people are figuring out there's potential. Are there examples or ideas about how this potential can be harnessed on Kinect?

And can someone explain to me how a buttonless control solution can have so much potential (which implies there are much more stuff hidden under the hood that haven't been realized yet) when it's the most barebones and most limited of all control methods while more complex control methods that give developers many more control options don't have so much potential?

I think the deal is that if Sony had released Eyetoy 3.0 with depth sensing as part of PS Move then we could all agree that would be even better technology-wise.

Of course it would also cost $150 MORE so its stupidly expensive and a moot point.


I think only the really, really stubborn people are refusing to acknowledge that a depth camera ONLY solution is simply not for button pushing gaming (which is most of gaming).

There are only so many eyetoy-like waggle your limbs games which the Depth Camera can aid in. If people got tired of waggling for the Wii for Lego Star Wars how on Earth is waggling your arms going to be better for Kinect Lego Star Wars?

 

[Clear]

Seriously guys, if the way that MS are pushing a game with as broken a basic control concept as Joyride front-and-center doesn't clue you in to how limited Kinect is... nothing will.

Kinect is for party and exercise games. That's all its ever going to be truly good at, because for EVERYTHING ELSE its an inferior substitute to conventional input devices.

Also, I'd recommend people to do a bit of research on the line of titles Sony produced to accompany the Eyetoy, specifically their metascores. History may regard them as failures but they were generally well-received at the time.

They worked, and people -particularly kids- actually liked them too.

 

[[Nintex]]

I'm not sure what 'visions' they had but both suck in different ways.

Kinect doesn't work for shit but who cares, right Don? This shit will sell millions with games like Dance Central. It's too early to tell if it catches on beyond one or two games, that depends on the core games they can get working with it... I wouldn't count on any. Move works, the technology seems great but there's no hype or buzz surrounding it at all. The fact that it looks like a Wii Remote and ships with Sports Champions won't help much. Sony seems to position it as an add-on as well, while Microsoft sees Kinect as a new system. People were drugged up on Wii Sports in 2006, it's 2010 now dancing games are the new hotness.

To sum it up, Kinect didn't met MS's tech vision but will meet their sales vision and gives them some time to think about their next step. Move met Sony's tech vision but won't meet their sales vision.

But after 4 years of shitty motion control games and 'potential' I can honestly say that whoever wins, we lose.

 

[Alx]

Agreed. I'd like to know how people are figuring out there's potential. Are there examples or ideas about how this potential can be harnessed on Kinect?

There are two different "potential" to estimate, in my opinion. There is the technical potential, as in "what are the different ways I can use this device", and the gaming potential, as in "will it be fun ?".
In the first one, kinect obviously has a huge potential, because there are hundreds of ways that you can use a depth map, and it is much more versatile than other controller-based systems (Move has a near perfect 1:1 tracking of the wand... it's great for gaming, but we already know that it won't do much else). The gaming part is more of a gamble, the first uses for games were obvious, but everything else has yet to be tried.

Seriously guys, if the way that MS are pushing a game with as broken a basic control concept as Joyride front-and-center doesn't clue you in to how limited Kinect is... nothing will.

Kinect is for party and exercise games. That's all its ever going to be truly good at, because for EVERYTHING ELSE its an inferior substitute to conventional input devices.

One of the other good things of kinect, is that it doesn't prevent you from using a regular controller (or a wand controller, either). When you're using a wiimote or a move wand, you can't use a regular controller at the same time. The controller-free part of kinect makes it less intrusive, you can use it without changing your gaming habits.

 

[yurinka]

One of the other good things of kinect, is that it doesn't prevent you from using a regular controller (or a wand controller, either). When you're using a wiimote or a move wand, you can't use a regular controller at the same time. The controller-free part of kinect makes it less intrusive, you can use it without changing your gaming habits.

If you were using a controller and Kinect, then it would be like using a Dualshock and a PSEye, no?

I think MS doesn't want to mix controller + Kinect to avoid that and to focus the attention in full body 3D tracking that is the device innovated.

I'm not sure what 'visions' they had but both suck in different ways.

Kinect doesn't work for shit but who cares, right Don? This shit will sell millions with games like Dance Central. It's too early to tell if it catches on beyond one or two games, that depends on the core games they can get working with it... I wouldn't count on any. Move works, the technology seems great but there's no hype or buzz surrounding it at all. The fact that it looks like a Wii Remote and ships with Sports Champions won't help much. Sony seems to position it as an add-on as well, while Microsoft sees Kinect as a new system. People were drugged up on Wii Sports in 2006, it's 2010 now dancing games are the new hotness.

To sum it up, Kinect didn't met MS's tech vision but will meet their sales vision and gives them some time to think about their next step. Move met Sony's tech vision but won't meet their sales vision.

But after 4 years of shitty motion control games and 'potential' I can honestly say that whoever wins, we lose.

Sony mentioned they plan to sell 3 million Move units. I think it's a pretty a low number, so I think they were refering to current fiscal year only.

Music games sales are declining year after year, but "recently" there was a Wii dance game that worked really well. But I think Dance Central will sell very well

When you say "the best" try to actually showcase a good dancer, not just some dude who's too embarrassed to move:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hxLBIcFnwvY#t=20s

My Move controller just went up:lol

 

[Alx]

If you were using a controller and Kinect, then it would be like using a Dualshock and a PSEye, no?

No, because the PSEye can't do depth perception and reliable body tracking.

I think MS doesn't want to mix controller + Kinect to avoid that and to focus the attention in full body 3D tracking that is the device innovated.

They're obviously focusing on the full body tracking since that's the most specific and impressive feature of kinect. It doesn't mean that's all they'll do in the future.

 

[REMEMBER CITADEL]

They're obviously focusing on the full body tracking since that's the most specific and impressive feature of kinect. It doesn't mean that's all they'll do in the future.

People can't seem to wrap their heads around the concept of the whole launch line-up being specifically tailored to attract new, different customers. Microsoft obviously didn't want core/violent titles there as the Xbox brand already suffers from the shooter box status in many people's eyes. It couldn't have been that hard to tack some Kinect functionality onto Halo Reach or Black Ops, but it won't even be in Fable III at launch. Changing perception and being careful not to scare away more casual audiences is what it's all about.

Hybrid stuff is coming later, people. Attracting you, guys, isn't the primary goal at this moment.

 

[Lagspike_exe]

Sony mentioned they plan to sell 3 million Move units. I think it's a pretty a low number, so I think they were refering to current fiscal year only.

I read 5 million earlier this year... Where did you read they're aiming for 3m?

 

[iceatcs]

There should have some of features can be done with controller + kinect, for example voice order on microphone, hand grenade for simple tracking.
I don't think it is good idea to use body track (arm, topbody or head) when you are on controller because you have to keep still when you are not need it. (no scratching balls, move body side for farting)

 

[xxracerxx]

Kinect sucked all-around. One of the least fun gaming experiences at PAX. Move was pretty solid, but some of the software was rather sketchy and gimmicky, which is to be expected.

But, God, I did NOT expect Kinect to be so revolting. It's actually terrible.

Can you go into more detail why Kinect just suck butt for you? I have no real sentiments towards wither Move or Kinect, I am really just want to hear your opinions.

 

[Man]

New video.
The Kinect at it's very best as in just the raw data. And it's all over the place.
http://n4g.com/news/598739/gametrailers-kinect-physics-demo-not-impressive

 

[Alx]

New video.
The Kinect at it's very best as in just the raw data. And it's all over the place.
http://n4g.com/news/598739/gametrailers-kinect-physics-demo-not-impressive

It's all over the place because this software is obviously meant to track separate people, and only that. As soon as they intertwine their bodies, or hold objects, the base model-fitting algorithm is lost. When each player is respecting the basic hypothesis, the tracking is rather good.
Tracking more complex situations would require a specific algorithm.

 

[SolidusDave]

People can't seem to wrap their heads around the concept of the whole launch line-up being specifically tailored to attract new, different customers. Microsoft obviously didn't want core/violent titles there as the Xbox brand already suffers from the shooter box status in many people's eyes. It couldn't have been that hard to tack some Kinect functionality onto Halo Reach or Black Ops, but it won't even be in Fable III at launch. Changing perception and being careful not to scare away more casual audiences is what it's all about.

Hybrid stuff is coming later, people. Attracting you, guys, isn't the primary goal at this moment.

Doesn't Kinect need something like 15% of the total 360 CPU power? I guess they can include some extra Kinect modes but if they don't want to gimp their own games, Kinect has no place in "normal" core games.

 

[StealthGoblin]

Doesn't Kinect need something like 15% of the total 360 CPU power? I guess they can include some extra Kinect modes but if they don't want to gimp their own games, Kinect has no place in "normal" core games.

It depends on the game. Ubisoft has said they have a game where they only use 1% of the CPU, but if a game wanted to track 2 players or multiple limbs as well as capture sound, it would cost a lot more CPU. Kinects software has undergone several updates since that 15% remark, so its probably less. Its still probably too much to be patched into older games like Burnout: Paradise, however.

 

[cgcg]

New video.
The Kinect at it's very best as in just the raw data. And it's all over the place.
http://n4g.com/news/598739/gametrailers-kinect-physics-demo-not-impressive

:lol :lol That's why the sitting on a couch issue will probably never going to be resolved.

...and no, waving your arm sitting down on a chair while only navigating a dashboard is not resolving the issue. You'd be stupid to think otherwise.

 

[yurinka]

No, because the PSEye can't do depth perception and reliable body tracking.

Hip Hop gamer showed gameplay and looks like it works really well
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16fRHuaVzNk

They're obviously focusing on the full body tracking since that's the most specific and impressive feature of kinect. It doesn't mean that's all they'll do in the future.

It's a camera with mics. It's a device that just captures video (+ 320x240 depth) and audio. Depth info helps with body tracking and light conditions issues, a lot harder to do with a 2D camera.

All the other stuff is just software that can be done with any decent camera or mics.

It won't launch laser rays.

 

[REMEMBER CITADEL]

Doesn't Kinect need something like 15% of the total 360 CPU power? I guess they can include some extra Kinect modes but if they don't want to gimp their own games, Kinect has no place in "normal" core games.

It needs up to 15%, depending on what functionality you use, and it's been implied that a lot of it can be passed on to the GPU, presumably lowering the cost even further. We've already seen Forza, with its underlying physics calculations still going, at 60 fps, with improved visuals and Kinect support running in real-time at E3. And that wasn't even finished and fully optimized game code.

 

[fortified_concept]

Jesus Christ with the excuses...

It's all over the place because this software is obviously meant to track separate people, and only that. As soon as they intertwine their bodies, or hold objects, the base model-fitting algorithm is lost. When each player is respecting the basic hypothesis, the tracking is rather good.
Tracking more complex situations would require a specific algorithm.

It glitches like a motherfucker even when there's a distance between the two people and they're not holding anything. Watch the video after around 1:20. It's faaaaaaar from precise.

People can't seem to wrap their heads around the concept of the whole launch line-up being specifically tailored to attract new, different customers. Microsoft obviously didn't want core/violent titles there as the Xbox brand already suffers from the shooter box status in many people's eyes. It couldn't have been that hard to tack some Kinect functionality onto Halo Reach or Black Ops, but it won't even be in Fable III at launch. Changing perception and being careful not to scare away more casual audiences is what it's all about.

Hybrid stuff is coming later, people. Attracting you, guys, isn't the primary goal at this moment.

OK got it, Microsoft thought that less game support is better. They're obviously morons according to your theory. And btw all I'm hearing is excuses, I still haven't heard of examples of how this potential can be unlocked especially for games that aren't EyeToy-ish.

 

[Alx]

Hip Hop gamer showed gameplay and looks like it works really well
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16fRHuaVzNk

What they don't show you is that before playing, you have to take a snapshot of the background without anybody there, to help the game detect where you are. That means that :
- it will be disturbed if there is something moving in the background, or if light conditions change
- you probably won't be able to play with your friends in the field of view of the camera, unless they stay perfectly motionless.
- you may have difficulties with the color of your clothes, if they're too similar to the background.

Besides, the system don't look like it tracks the body parts, like in the old eyetoy games it only gets what's moving in the picture (or in this case, what's different from the background). The main difference is that it recognizes key shapes, but that's still far from body tracking (and limited to 2D anyway).

It's a camera with mics. It's a device that just captures video (+depth) and audio. Depth info helps with body tracking and light conditions issues, a lot harder to do with a 2D camera.

All the other stuff is just software that can be done with any decent camera or mics.

The depth info is not there to help : it's the main info used for body tracking (and most probably even the only one), and that's what makes the whole difference. Everything that makes image processing difficult (light, colors, reduction of information from 3D to 2D) is made almost irrelevant by this tech. I don't see kinect as a camera with a new fancy depth sensor, it is a depth sensor with an included camera. You could remove the camera and the microphone and it would still be a very interesting device.

:lol :lol That's why the sitting on a couch issue will probably never going to be resolved.

...and no, waving your arm sitting down on a chair while only navigating a dashboard is not resolving the issue. You'd be stupid to think otherwise.

And what are you expecting it to track apart your arms, while you're sitting ?
But you're right, that's exactly why sitting in a couch was an issue. The skeletal tracking is a model-based approach, so if you want to make it work in a given situation, you have to use the right model. That's why it can do random things with the wrong software in the wrong situation, but that's also why it can be solved, since it's all about software.

 

[REMEMBER CITADEL]

OK got it, Microsoft thought that less game support is better. They're obviously morons according to your theory.

Perhaps, but we won't know for sure who really are the morons until at least early next year.

And btw all I'm hearing is excuses, I still haven't heard of examples of how this potential can be unlocked especially for games that aren't EyeToy-ish.

I guess you just haven't been paying attention because there was a lot of talk about that in various Natal/Kinect threads. In fact, I believe we even had a thread wholly dedicated to that specific question.

 

[Belfast]

Interesting maybe, but not fun! And that's the ultimate key here, right? The GAMING applications for a device like this aren't there yet. Thus far, the only thing you've proven is that its "potential" is only a buzzword.

 

[mujun]

Weird recurring sentiment in this thread:

1. Buttonless gaming is just the most innovative thing (though it's been tried and sucks)

2. Buttonless gaming offers more potential (though there isn't any evidence to that effect)

...don't cut off my hands until you can read my mind...

It offers more potential because it hasn't been explored as much as waggle has. That's how I see it as a casual observer.

No? Was the Eyetoy as fleshed out and developed as the Wii? Are there other devices that were used for gaming?

 

[cgcg]

And what are you expecting it to track apart your arms, while you're sitting ?
But you're right, that's exactly why sitting in a couch was an issue. The skeletal tracking is a model-based approach, so if you want to make it work in a given situation, you have to use the right model. That's why it can do random things with the wrong software in the wrong situation, but that's also why it can be solved, since it's all about software.

Are you kidding me? Maybe you know tracking your body for leaning function in a game? Or gas and pedal in a driving game as advertised? Waving your arm is easier to track because your hands can easily go above a couch. If it has problem with raw data then I doubt it can be resolved in software. By the way the bodies merging problem was evident in that Engaget stage demo as well.

 

[fortified_concept]

I guess you just haven't been paying attention because there was a lot of talk about that in various Natal/Kinect threads. In fact, I believe we even had a thread wholly dedicated to that specific question.

...and all solutions revolved around "but if you use the controller with the the camera..." which was getting counter-argued with the logical point that if you use the controller you can no longer move your hands which renders the camera almost useless. There were also some pretty laughable "solutions" (like jumping for jumping or pretending to walk to go forward) that were being dismissed immediately.

And since you're the one that keeps insisting that Kinect will be used with core games even though everything points to the opposite the burden of proof lies with you. So tell us, how will MS unlock that hidden Kinect potential?

 

[Alx]

Are you kidding me? Maybe you know tracking your body for leaning function in a game? Or gas and pedal in a driving game as advertised? Waving your arm is easier to track because your hands can easily go above a couch.

Leaning was demoed in the TED presentation... if they can do arms, they can do the upper body. I wouldn't count on the lower body, though, first because of the "coffee table" problem, and second because moving four feet/legs while sitting in a couch is far from convenient.

 

[cgcg]

Leaning was demoed in the TED presentation... if they can do arms, they can do the upper body. I wouldn't count on the lower body, though, first because of the "coffee table" problem, and second because moving four feet/legs while sitting in a couch is far from convenient.

Leaning while sitting on a couch or leaning while sitting on a chair? That's a huge difference. How do you know it's not just tracking the person's head for leaning instead of the body? Do you have a video of it? I mean these are raw data videos are you seriously trying to argue with that?

 

[PopcornMegaphone]

The reason we're not seeing any core games at launch is partly marketing, but mostly the early Kinect SDK was kind of gimped. We know support for sitting wasn't ready until recently which would make it impossible to develop hybrid kinect/controller games for launch. I'm disappointed with Kinect's launch lineup, but I think 2nd and 3rd gen games could be very interesting. Clearly Kinect's SDK is improving a great deal. MS reps have said there will be core game support sometime next year.

 

[Noshino]

The reason we're not seeing any core games at launch is partly marketing, but mostly the early Kinect SDK was kind of gimped. We know support for sitting wasn't ready until recently which would make it impossible to develop hybrid kinect/controller games for launch. I'm disappointed with Kinect's launch lineup, but I think 2nd and 3rd gen game could be interesting. Clearly Kinect's SDK is improving a great deal. MS reps have said there will be core game support sometime next year.

The main problem for Microsoft right now is that everything that they have shown thus far CAN be replicated by the PS Eye (w/ or w/o the Move). Even the one game that looks decent, Dance Central, it has been mentioned by the developers themselves that it can be done with the PS Eye....

And that doesn't seem like it is going to change for a while... as even the Eye Toy was able to do motion tracking (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5-MRi67GCoM first scene)

 

[beast786]

The reason we're not seeing any core games at launch is partly marketing, but mostly the early Kinect SDK was kind of gimped. We know support for sitting wasn't ready until recently which would make it impossible to develop hybrid kinect/controller games for launch. I'm disappointed with Kinect's launch lineup, but I think 2nd and 3rd gen games could be very interesting. Clearly Kinect's SDK is improving a great deal. MS reps have said there will be core game support sometime next year.

If support like gimicky 6-axis. Then it would be a fail.

Using with a controller would be more than just be a gimmick because the game would be basded on controller IMO like 6-xis.

A game based on kinect only from gound up is what it needs.

 

[Alx]

Leaning while sitting on a couch or leaning while sitting on a chair? That's a huge difference. How do you know it's not just tracking the person's head for leaning instead of the body?

Well first I can't know for sure if it tracks the head or not, but as long as it works, it works, doesn't it ? But more logically, if you can track the arms with enough precision to use the hand as a pointer, then it's not so hard to localize the trunk (it should be the big blob in the depth map attached to the arm...), and that's enough for leaning detection.

Do you have a video of it?

Look for the Molyneux presentation on the TED website...

I mean these are raw data videos are you seriously trying to argue with that?

Raw data are interesting because they show the level of information you really have. The interesting thing is that what we saw in the video was the raw data and nothing else. But we could still understand what was going on, even without the visible pixels mapped on the depth data (except maybe when the two guys were wrestling together). That means that the information is there, and that a software smart enough can extract it.
Of course the difficult part is to build this software, but MS has shown that they were able to add new features to their libraries (which is not really a surprise).