REMEMBER CITADEL
Banned
TheExecutive said:
Actually, Microsoft has all the capacity it needs. If their internal studios won't be enough, they can always contract independent developers, like they've been doing for years now.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Kinect and Move: from Vision to Retail...were their respective visions met?
- Thread starter chubigans
- Start date
Actually, Microsoft has all the capacity it needs. If their internal studios won't be enough, they can always contract independent developers, like they've been doing for years now.
well you might not like wii sports. but its not your taste alone that matters. there are a lot of people that actually like wii sports.fortified_concept said:
well it has worked well for nintendo and a 70 million wii owners compared to a 20 million gamecube or 30 million n64 userbase.Noshino said:
also it is laughable to claim nintendo released better games last gen. their output was significantly lower.
REMEMBER CITADEL
Banned
Shurs said:
Can you think of one reason why it wouldn't be possible when it was possible on the original EyeToy?
REMEMBER CITADEL
Banned
Eccocid said:
We're not talking about skeletal tracking at all, read the last page.
fortified_concept
Banned
farnham said:
Well if you think a game as simple and superficial as Wii Sports is proof of Nintendo's creative output we'll just agree to disagree. Because if people believe that the proof of a developer's "creative output" this gen is this kind of games it's a sad, sad generation. And again, it's doesn't fucking matter what people like. Creativity is not measured by the popularity of something.
fortified_concept
Banned
Soneet said:
I acknowledge that we there's no chance in hell to agree with each other but I still think that it's sad that someone would believe that. For me these games are lowest common denominator and it pains me to see people using them as proof of creativity.
wii sports is a good example of very good game design actually. everything is built around the concept to get you into the game as fast and simple as possible and it has some good depth too. there is a lot to learn from it. especially compared to the clones that are being churned out like that hudson one, sports champions or kinect sports.fortified_concept said:
and no its not sad. diversity is a good thing. wii sports may not be a game that is developed for you. but so what ? does every game need to be developed for the 15-35 male crowd only because the majority of the gamres are in that demographic ? no.
wii sports is one of the few games that i could show anyone from 0 to 99 and get them hooked. and thats the power of creative design.
Agent X
Member
Paco said:
Generally, I would agree with what you're saying. However, I believe the point of the thread is for us to decide if Move and Kinect appear to be on track to deliver the types of gameplay enhancments and innovations that their creators originally promised when these products were first revealed to the public over a year ago. That's why the thread exists now and not as some type of post-mortem after their heyday has come and gone.
The irony is that neither product is available to the public yet, so a large number of people in this thread might not be truly qualified to state whether these products are meeting their creators' visions. Still, it's interesting to gauge public perception of how these products have evolved in development over the last year. We had many threads discussing the impact of E3 stage shows and Jimmy Fallon and Smallville and YouTube videos. Now that Move and Kinect are almost here, this is a good time to review their development cycles and see if they're meeting expectations.
farnham said:
As a gamer, it is true that Im interested in both the economic and the creative aspects of the industry, but at the end of the day, the most important aspect for the games will always be the creative one (unless you are A) a shareholder and/or B) a fanboy. Clover might have not been even financially successful, but they are still by far my favorite developers.
Also, why are you comparing quality to quantity? Im not claiming that Nintendo released less games, all Im saying is that, to me, the games they released in previous generations were much much better than the ones released this gen.
quality is always debatable although i kinda doubt that it is a valid thing to say that nintendo games this gen are worse then the gamecube games they made. i believe they are all pretty equal qualitywise with some being better on GC (paper mario 2 is better then super paper mario) some better on wii (mario galaxy is better then mario sunshine. mkwii is better then double dash. wario ware is better on wii. brawl is better then meelee). but the input has just increased a lot and overall wii is a much better console for nintendo games compared to the gc.Noshino said:
SolidusDave
Member
distrbnce said:
This.
with Move you have:
- alt-control schemes for 100% integration into core game genres, in particular any FPS and TPS can profit from it.
and
- your typical casual games which can include both motion controls and camera integration (people seem to forget that Move uses a cameraµphone that is actually better than the one integrated in Kinect and the Wii lacks this feature set completely). 1:1 basically lag-free sport games are possible as well as stuff like EyePet that scans your irl drawn pictures.
Additionally, Move game support is further backed up by patching released core&casual games with Move controls as well as easy transfer of Wii motion/pointer controls for Wii HD ports (both simply not possible for Kinect).
In the first few months there will already be a lot of games from all kinds of genres you can try your Move controller with.
https://sites.google.com/site/iwaggle3dgamelist/gamelist
Shurs said:
here is a video I've linked to in the past....I brought this up in previous Kinect & PSEYE/Move threads....
the people here are having alot of fun, and although I don't think too highly of Kinect (especially for its price)...it should be able to do something similar to these games...
great music too
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AOXohr4XE-4&feature=related
SolidusDave
Member
Shurs said:
"Currently", Kinect can only process the bodies of two persons at once.
If they want to include mp for 4 players, they would need to either offer PS2 EyeToy-esque mp or do a mixed setup in that only two players can play it with full body recognition while the other two just waggle in front of the screen (obviously this is a no-go for anything competitive). The very narrow view angle of Kinect doesn't help either.
Both solutions are not really optimal for pushing Kinect.
Shurs said:
well, same reason Sony didn't relaunch the PS2 bundled with an EyeToy with all its games for $119 a couple of years ago........I don't know.
but seriously, I think with a game like Joyride you are steering a wheel......I would think EyeToy and Kinect's VisionCam wouldn't be able to track that type of precision with 4 players....even if they all had their own little squares.
kinect. hell no. from the camera no longer moving, milo tech = awol... sitting = um, no.. its not... just not selling itself
move. yes. fully realised imo.
That said, anyone concerned about move pricepoint+titles - I personally haven't bought a guitar/bandhero/djhero peripheral based game - last one was donkey konga and its drums but the price premium isn't that problematic, as its more as less the same. But it does make your ps3 a HD wii.
And for that, it can't be beat. I'm getting move, if only to play HR move + RE5gold move. Both of which I already own. I'm sure RE6 will be move compatible too + I also want the time crisis 3 game pack.
move. yes. fully realised imo.
That said, anyone concerned about move pricepoint+titles - I personally haven't bought a guitar/bandhero/djhero peripheral based game - last one was donkey konga and its drums but the price premium isn't that problematic, as its more as less the same. But it does make your ps3 a HD wii.
And for that, it can't be beat. I'm getting move, if only to play HR move + RE5gold move. Both of which I already own. I'm sure RE6 will be move compatible too + I also want the time crisis 3 game pack.
TheExecutive
Member
SolidusDave said:
I poop myself a little when I think of The Show and all the possibilities.
Agent X said:
Kinect, or Project Natal was unveiled with concept or target footage much like the PS3 did back at E32005. Think back to PS3's showing and you'll recall a lot of target renders and supposed real-time footage, but it was perfectly acceptable to agree that those target concepts were visions that various creative minds were aiming for and would come later in the hardware's life if ever. Nobody, not even here on GAF, was stupid enough to think that the launch games were indicative of the hardware's true potential. We certainly didn't judge if the PS3 was meeting its creators vision based on previews of launch software, because I think it goes without saying that would have been inexcusably retarded.
Correct me if I'm wrong, I don't recall Microsoft stating that all of those target concepts would be represented in launch games, so how is one supposed to draw any conclusions without the final product(s)?
You can't
Move actually seems pretty promising to me. I know the games now looks like shit, but it looks like there could be a lot of potential. Maybe that FPS I always wanted on the Wii but never got (R3?), and a HD Zelda TP knock-off would be grand (MGSR could maybe do this). Right now I think it's too expensive, but if Sony supports it in the long-run it may be worth getting.
Kinect never appealed to me at all. Always seemed like an HD Eyetoy and still does. None of the games look compelling (by the way, why does the tiger in Kinectimals have the skeleton and act like a dog? Wrong Family MS). Maybe Children of Eden, but I can't imagine it being more precise than the controller version. I'm also not sure there's any room for conceptual growth either. Not sure how you could do a full blown game with XYZ axes that didn't use rails. Again and again, it's just too limited by the lack of a tactile interface.
Kinect never appealed to me at all. Always seemed like an HD Eyetoy and still does. None of the games look compelling (by the way, why does the tiger in Kinectimals have the skeleton and act like a dog? Wrong Family MS). Maybe Children of Eden, but I can't imagine it being more precise than the controller version. I'm also not sure there's any room for conceptual growth either. Not sure how you could do a full blown game with XYZ axes that didn't use rails. Again and again, it's just too limited by the lack of a tactile interface.
I don't really care if they lived up to their visions.
Move has looked like an improved Wii take on motion control gaming from the start. I've yet to see a Wii or Move game that makes me want to put down a standard controller and pick up a motion control controller.
Kinect looked like marketing from the start. The way it was presented (skate board being scanned in, godzilla stuff, kung fu stuff, etc) gave me the impression that what I was seeing and the final product would differ at least a little if not more in what was possible with the tech. Either way I didn't expect it to be something I'd be particularly interesting though I was more inclined to keep an eye on it as it potentially offered something I hadn't seen before.
It wasn't until Dance Central and to a lesser degree Joyride that I actually went from absolutely no interest in owning a motion control game setup to strongly considering getting one.
If I do finally pull the trigger on Kinect and the only thing I ever play is Dance Central then I'll certainly be pissed that I forked out the cash for just one game but that one game also gives me hope that other games interesting enough for me to want to buy will actually come out further into the peripheral's life.
I should mention that my wife's interest in the Dance Central has also motivated me to thing seriously about picking the game up.
Move has looked like an improved Wii take on motion control gaming from the start. I've yet to see a Wii or Move game that makes me want to put down a standard controller and pick up a motion control controller.
Kinect looked like marketing from the start. The way it was presented (skate board being scanned in, godzilla stuff, kung fu stuff, etc) gave me the impression that what I was seeing and the final product would differ at least a little if not more in what was possible with the tech. Either way I didn't expect it to be something I'd be particularly interesting though I was more inclined to keep an eye on it as it potentially offered something I hadn't seen before.
It wasn't until Dance Central and to a lesser degree Joyride that I actually went from absolutely no interest in owning a motion control game setup to strongly considering getting one.
If I do finally pull the trigger on Kinect and the only thing I ever play is Dance Central then I'll certainly be pissed that I forked out the cash for just one game but that one game also gives me hope that other games interesting enough for me to want to buy will actually come out further into the peripheral's life.
I should mention that my wife's interest in the Dance Central has also motivated me to thing seriously about picking the game up.
Lion Heart
Banned
I am pleasantly surprised that Sony managed to incorporate the move into their traditional hardcore games with relative ease. It makes it much more appealing in my eyes and I am seriously considering getting it now. Take KZ3 for example, I would play it with the DS3 on the first playthrough and with move on the second. It gives you two unique ways to play the same game. Hopefully Move original games are compelling enough to warrant a purchase but they pretty much have a safety net with the hardcore gamers buying move, unlike Kinect.
And no one would have been stupid enough to make an article asking if those launch titles were as good as the system was going to get. You're comparing apples and oranges here.Paco said:
With Kinect and Move, we know the tech's limitations. We know what it can and cannot do. We can easily see if they match up to the original visions of the product. What we DON'T know is how games will incorporate this tech. Will we see different products that are truely revolutionary in motion control design a year from now? Possibly. Does that change the fact that we're still dealing with the exact same tech that we're getting in a few months? No, it doesn't. Hence the point of the article.
And I didn't. Most of the Kinect stuff is me saying "it's not in launch games, but there's nothing holding it back from being in future games tech wise." I couldn't say that for such visions as scanning objects, and so on.Paco said:
I CAN draw conclusions based on the tech that's in the camera, because that tech is not going to change unless they release Kinect+ or something. It's like asking if five years from now Kinect/Eye will be able to capture HD footage, and the answer is no, it can't today and it won't five years from today. Simple as that.
Zoe said:
It didn't happened, unless something has changed since E3. At E3 it was shown that Kinect can track the player and rotate around.
The same goes with "no sitting". At TED it was shown that you can play Kinect while sitting (and it's not only hands motion, the game also read when the player leaned) but you can still see the "you can't sit lol" comments around. :/
devilhunterx
Banned
That is all:
:lol
:lol
Agent X
Member
Paco said:
You're right. At the same time, though, there were people out there who were disappointed that the PS3 didn't live up to their expectations--expectations which were molded and influenced by the pre-launch demos. Whether those expectations were "realistic" or not (with regard to 2006 launch software) isn't the issue. They set the standard, and thus it's up to the actual software to live up to it.
Now, 4 years later, maybe some of those people saw the more recent games, and have decided that the PS3 finally did meet their expectations, and bought the system as a result. Maybe some other people feel that it still falls short, and aren't buying the system. Different strokes for different folks.
Paco said:
You're right, they did not explicitly say that the stuff from E3 2009 would comprise the launch software, or have concepts that would be represented in the launch software.
On the other hand, those video reels were what had molded and influenced people's expectations for what Project Natal/Kinect would be capable of. People were referencing some of those video clips for months after last year's E3. We had no other points of reference, therefore, the videos set the stage.
With that in mind, I think it's perfectly valid for people to judge now whether what we've been shown of Kinect in recent days (particularly the last 2½ months) lives up to the promises put forth in the E3 2009 public unveiling. That doesn't mean this should be a permanent, final judgment, but just reflecting on the situation now, in September 2010.
I'm in the camp that believes that Move appears to be delivering on its promise, but Kinect on the other hand falls far short of the mark. The games that have been revealed so far might not be representative of the Kinect's full capabilities, but until we have have evidence otherwise, they're all we have to use as a basis for judgment.
We keep about these newfound limitations, and whether they can be overcome. There are ongoing debates about whether or not you can play games while sitting, or play with more than two players, or have the device interpret the advanced artificial intelligence algorithms that were demonstrated with aplomb in the M.I.L.O. Microsoft Interactive Learning Organism multimedia lifestyle experience. Until some Kinect games (and not concept videos) can prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that they can, then for all intents and purposes Kinect cannot do it.
PSGames said:
Dance Central doesn't map your body movements 1:1
It just interprets your movements and scores you accordingly. There's no 1:1 mapping involved at all
PS Move uses the Playstation Eye, and the 2D data it receives from the eye is probably entirely sufficient for what Dance Central on the Kinect does
Flachmatuch
Member
fortified_concept said:
This is kind of stupid. Games are made so that people play them, so of course it matters how many people like them. They're in the entertainment business, you know. It's not like too many people are making games as creative expression (and I'm not sure that Nintendo has a below average ratio of those people, compared to the rest of the industry). Anyway, it's true that popularity is not always related to creativity, but there must be *some* idea in there that didn't use to be there, seeing how many exact copycat games you get, while Nintendo does come up with a new pattern or two for others to copy every year or so.
It's not like there're too many games (this gen especially) that are really creative, no matter what marketing says, and looking at the fresh ideas put into them, the Wii... games are definitely near the top. I think a lot of people confuse ideas based on generic combination patterns (that routinely come up on gaming forums hehe) for creativity, like combining a first person view with platforming in ME and the rest of the genre-mashup stuff. It's like mistaking superficial Matrix type one-trick stories (like in Bioshock) and crappy TV-series type plot design with good writing.
SolidSnakex
Member
Paco said:
Huh? For years Sony was criticized because games didn't match those tech demos. It was near impossible to go into threads without someone mentioning something about those demos or the systems price and even reviews would do the same (especially the price). It took a long time before people finally stopped bringing them up as a way to take shots at the system.
Redbeard said:
It's not mapping you 1:1 it's tracking you 1:1.
Firewire said:
Yes and it looks like absolute ass in comparison to Dance Central. People are so clueless in this thread it's ridiculous. :lol
Continue with the blind Kinect hate folks. I've played the thing several times and with several games. The thing is honestly amazingly precise and I'll be one of the first ones to grab one at launch.
UntoldDreams
Member
PSGames said:
Actually skeletal tracking in 2D is absolutely possible but there is chance for interpretation error which for a game like Dance Central probably doesn't matter to be honest.
fortified_concept
Banned
Soneet said:As a designer and programmer it's sad to see you calling people sad though. It's okay if you don't see the brilliance and the thoughts put into Wii Sports, but you shouldn't call other people sad if they do see it.
Sad.
Nice strawman. I didn't say these people are sad.
Flachmatuch said:
When companies are making copycat games it doesn't mean you're creative, most of the time it means you made a ton of cash and they want a piece of the action. I still haven't met someone btw that can sufficiently explain to me what's creative or genius in a game as simple as Wii Sports or any casual games.
They might be fun for awhile, yes, because you can play them even with a monkey and they're simple as hell which means you don't usually have to use your brain which makes it even easier to pick up and play, but making an art of the lowest common denominator to attract more idiots (to avoid a strawman I'll say it now that I'm not implying everyone who plays these games is an idiot) and make more cash doesn't equal creativity. If that were the case Michael Bay would be the most creative director.
UntoldDreams said:
The PSEye has been out for years and nobody attempted it. There's a reason for that. Something like that would only be possible in perfect lighting conditions and thus would never be reliable in the real world. You will see very few if any at all try to do something like that. Dance Central tracks your individual limbs and shows you in real-time what you're doing wrong and gives you a score.
Here's the best Sony themselves could come up with:
http://vimeo.com/14317686
Try not to bust out laughing. Yeah that looks as accurate or fun as Dance Central :lol
Redbeard said:
It's possible just like Just Dance is possible but giving you the exact same experience as Kinect is entirely different matter altogether.
chubigans said:
In an age where IGN is considered journalism and anyone can write a blog...yeah, I can believe that such a stupid article was written. The bottom line is that we cannot measure the devices up to their respective visions. Kinect showed target concepts and Move showed actual demos -- totally different measuring sticks. To pit them against each other in that respect is stupid.
Agent X said:
I understand that there are some people are rationally judging the two devices based on the fact that they're not even released, and there's a long way to go before we can say for certain whether or not they lived up to their respective visions. That's the only correct way to look at it right now.
As for pitting Move vs. Kinect, there's no excuse. Move doesn't have far too go considering that it's based on something Nintendo's been doing for 4 years now and they showcased actual demos at the unveiling. Developers know what they can do, they know what sells, and it's apparently very easy to adapt previously released games to it. We know wands work, we know they sell. Kinect on the other hand is a different concept and largely unexplored territory, where Microsoft demonstrated their vision via target concepts. It's going to go through the same cycle the the Wii first did -- developers are going to have to figure out its strengths and weaknesses, what the consumers find fun and worth their money, etc.
The burden of proof is on Microsoft to deliver those experiences they demonstrated, but to suggest that the device is incapable of any one of those experiences is wrong. We can measure the experience only once it has been delivered. For launch it looks like we're getting a taste of some of what was promised, so upon playing those games we can certainly judge those particular capabilities showcased.
SolidSnakex said:
Sony delivered on the target concepts though. Anyone smarter than a chimp knew it wasn't going to be delivered right out of the gate. Don't make excuses for stupid GAF, never make excuses for them.