-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Kojima responds to the criticism of Quiet in MGSV
- Thread starter duckroll
- Start date
- Status
Zoramon089
Banned
We could have 10 years of only games with dudes in thongs and speedos and it would still not be sexist to show dudes in "sexy outfits" =P
There's always a weird double standard with these threads. One side points at a female design and says it was made only for the sex appeal. The other side posts male designs that are the same but we always hear the same "oh, that's just a male power fantasy" or "that's not how a female would design the character" which is true, in some cases, but when that excuse is used for every possible male character type, ranging from muscular, rugged, skinny, pretty boy, etc, then it just becomes ridiculous.
We seriously have people in here claiming Raiden wasn't designed to be attractive/sexy for females.
ThroneZwei
Banned
Yup, even though what, was it the Document of MGS2? Released a long time ago, Kojima claiming the reason they designed Raiden how they did was because japanese schoolgirls thought Snake was too old and ugly.
Only possible explanation.
Well Kojima's comment about being ashamed is really putting him in a bad place. He's in a win/lose position now.
Lose: There is some story reason why she SHOULD be like that, ala skin camo theory or Sniper Wolf-esque sexuality expression or she is put into that situation because lol
Win: Her outfit is as impromptu as it is because of a situation which is defining to her character.
I'm leaning towards the second one, honestly. Not just because of a faith in Kojima after playing the previous games and seeing his characterization of women but because what we can tell from her body photo. Despite her body, her face is one of someone who has seen some shit. Very distant, unhappy, etc. Her top being broken and tied in the middle begs the question of why it was broken in the first place.
Seeing Kojima's words and her look the only thing that comes to mind is that she's been not only tortured (which is already confirmed) possibly also been raped. The stripping of her clothes could play a heavy part of that and with Kojima wanting to hit new taboos it's not out of the question. Her outfit could be impromptu based on her given situation and a lack of time given and the need to have that impromptu outfit be like it is is to reinforce her situation. If that is the case and she is victim to that then I'll be waiting for several dozen public apologies from people on internet about her.
As for "making her more sexy" - it's frustrating people think things have only single purposes. If what I said above ends up being the case, as Kojima heavily implied, her outfit represents her as a victim status and fighting back despite it. That doesn't mean that she can't be empowered despite it and it doesn't mean she can't also be good looking. There is always multiple reasonings for Kojima's decisions. Even Raiden as a playable character was created both with the intent of improving Snake's characterization and, by his own admission, an attempt to garner female gamer support since female gamers he questioned liked the idea of playing as a cute boy than a rugged old man. Kojima has been a fan of appealing to both sides pretty nicely.
The true issue is the lack of any potential naked wrestling matches between Big Boss and Kaz anymore. That is a loss that will be felt for generations.
Lose: There is some story reason why she SHOULD be like that, ala skin camo theory or Sniper Wolf-esque sexuality expression or she is put into that situation because lol
Win: Her outfit is as impromptu as it is because of a situation which is defining to her character.
I'm leaning towards the second one, honestly. Not just because of a faith in Kojima after playing the previous games and seeing his characterization of women but because what we can tell from her body photo. Despite her body, her face is one of someone who has seen some shit. Very distant, unhappy, etc. Her top being broken and tied in the middle begs the question of why it was broken in the first place.
Seeing Kojima's words and her look the only thing that comes to mind is that she's been not only tortured (which is already confirmed) possibly also been raped. The stripping of her clothes could play a heavy part of that and with Kojima wanting to hit new taboos it's not out of the question. Her outfit could be impromptu based on her given situation and a lack of time given and the need to have that impromptu outfit be like it is is to reinforce her situation. If that is the case and she is victim to that then I'll be waiting for several dozen public apologies from people on internet about her.
As for "making her more sexy" - it's frustrating people think things have only single purposes. If what I said above ends up being the case, as Kojima heavily implied, her outfit represents her as a victim status and fighting back despite it. That doesn't mean that she can't be empowered despite it and it doesn't mean she can't also be good looking. There is always multiple reasonings for Kojima's decisions. Even Raiden as a playable character was created both with the intent of improving Snake's characterization and, by his own admission, an attempt to garner female gamer support since female gamers he questioned liked the idea of playing as a cute boy than a rugged old man. Kojima has been a fan of appealing to both sides pretty nicely.
The true issue is the lack of any potential naked wrestling matches between Big Boss and Kaz anymore. That is a loss that will be felt for generations.
Really?
Well I'll be waiting. Not really expecting to see any.
faceless007
Member
First I'll link to this this Jimquistion that I think explains the difference rather well. tl;dr: There's a difference between sexualization (which mostly happens to female characters) and idealization (which mostly happens to male characters). People often confuse the two.
But on a broader level, you've just demonstrated the inequity at play: the fact that such a wide variety in the types and builds of male characters are available to play in games, ranging from rugged to muscular to average to skinny, whereas far less variety exists for female characters. That's precisely the reason for the complaints. If you don't like to play as dudebros on steroids like Kratos or Marcos Fenix, there are quite a few other options available to you for more normal-looking characters who are designed more for functionality and sensible clothes than what looks sexy. But then again I'm not sure I've ever heard someone criticize e.g. a skinny character as a male power fantasy anyway.
I can't speak to Raiden as I'm not familiar with the series, and there does seem to be a good deal of evidence that he was designed as female fanservice, but the larger point is that such characters are relative anomalies within the industry.
Generally they are seen where there is a bigger female audience overall.
MikeXXIeaf
Banned
As long as there's a reasonable explanation then I'm fine with it, even though I personally don't find Quiet's design all that "absurd". How many comic book superheroes have absurd outfits for the hell of it? The Halo dev who took a shot at Kojima is an idiot, period. The fact we're even entertaining his comment is hilarious to me.
I really fail to see the shamelessness of Quiet's design when she's basically wearing a bikini with some pantyhose. Ever been to a beach? It's more clothing than that. She's not exactly hefting around backbreaking watermelons or a booty the size of Texas, either. This isn't Sorceress-in-Dragon's-Crown levels of cheese or anything close to it.
I mean, Naomi wearing a lab coat with open tits in MGS4 is orders of magnitude more preposterous. Or the B&B corp from the same game, slinking around in skintight clothing and proffering their ass for the camera, because Kojima was a cop once and he knows traumatized women are needy.
I mean, Naomi wearing a lab coat with open tits in MGS4 is orders of magnitude more preposterous. Or the B&B corp from the same game, slinking around in skintight clothing and proffering their ass for the camera, because Kojima was a cop once and he knows traumatized women are needy.
Flatline
Banned
I think you're overestimating how much Kojima cares about this "controversy". Having said that it's obvious from her face that there's a lot more going on so I agree.
Well shamelessness is really in the eye of the beholder so how offensive it is really depends on the person. I've seen some women just call the complainers prude, honestly, but it doesn't make either side right. The only stand out point is that in Afghanistan and what might lead into Big Boss at the Kurdish Revolt she is wearing that which is both highly impractical and highly out of place so it leads to why you would put something so out of place in it. That's already said to be sexualization so you have to wonder if the narrative and suspension of disbelief will still be stable despite simple sex catering and also what something as out of place would feel like for women (obviously mixed results but are the mixed results even worthwhile overall).
Naomi makes sense, her sexuality is an element of her personal empowerment. B&B is used to throw the player off by having sexuality and trauma coming at the same time. Quiet needs explanation because she is so out of place. Further, she needs good explaining.
Well "win/lose" the controversy but I suppose even that can be blown over. I guess I did sound pretty sensationalist.
If those were actual narrative elements, they sure weren't developed to any meaningful degree.
I think Kojima just made them that way in MGS4 because he rikes it.
Naomi has always been sexually playful. You can tell that in MGS1 codec calls stemming from near the beginning of the game.
B&B as a whole weren't characterized well. Release of trauma leading to a need for warmth lends a sexual warmth which is played on when they get out of their suits and despite their soft actions and look of good intent glass is breaking, screams are heard, etc. It's supposed to give the player a mix of emotions which makes the situation emotionally disorienting at first.
Please look at my first post on this page and report back.
Yeeeeeeeeeeeeah, who was she being "sexually playful" for at her prison in South America?
It's OK, dude, Kojima just like titties. Let's not pretend these games have good stories. Fun, zany, over-the-top soap opera shenanigans with shoehorned anime logic, yes, and that's why we love 'em!
Reverse vampire.
polyh3dron
Banned
You will all be ashamed.
She's sexually playful in MGS1. This has nothing to do with how she dresses when I say it. This deals with personality. It shows she has a sex-positive attitude and like most people with those views, they hold value in their self-image and sexuality so they express it both for others and themselves. And obviously there is the element of appealing to the crowd who finds her sexy but that is not the only thing and is completely consistent with the character's personality established way back in MGS1.
Edit: Fixed the typo
Vamp IIRC
I know why she's naked all the time -- she's really black and she was persecuted for her skin color and so she equipped herself with nanomachines that make her white but they're solar-powered so she has to absorb lots of sunlight or else she'll turn black again.
You know, race being the theme and all. This shit writes itself.
You know, race being the theme and all. This shit writes itself.
RuinerPrime
Member
I thought her skin changes colors to blend in. being a sniper and all, this would be helpful
ThroneZwei
Banned
I believe one of her comments in MGS 1 is something to the kin of 'If you make it back to the mission, you can play doctor on me'. More or less.
funkystudent
Member
Its the 80's right. So tech isn't as advanced as it was in MGS4 right?
So maybe she was forcibly injected with nano machines and they are solar powered ..... or something. She doesnt want to dress the way she does but if she puts on pants for more then a minute her legs will fall off.
I would like to hope this is actually a trick by Kojima and she only dresses like that for one scene where she is rescued from some creepy raper guy who forced her to dress that way and once snake gets her back to his HQ she puts on people clothes for the rest of the game.
oh wow that totally explains her showing her tits all the time
It's just Kojima being Kojima. Case closed.
For the record, I love Quiet's design. Dat face. <3
ThroneZwei
Banned
What, women can't wear low cut tops anymore? I dunno, working at my job, I see hundreds of women a day wearing low cut tops, see through tops, spaghetti tops, showing off their cleavage, hiding their cleavage, etc.
I guess all the women who show off their cleavage need an explanation as to why they're doing it, huh.
Trent Strong
Banned
It's gonna suck in five years when there are no longer scantily clad hot women in video games. I like a little titillation in my games.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
I'm sorry. Let me play the world's tiniest violin for you.
ThroneZwei
Banned
Please, keep your penis in your pants.
He's saying that it's out of place and exists purely because of want to make the character appeal to men.
I'm saying that's explained by sex-positive people usually having a value in their sexuality both towards other and themselves so it's not out of place as it fits with the character.
You quoted a line that shows she is sex positive after some flirting between Snake and her early in MGS1 and he isn't buying it.
Just shrug and forget, buddy.
See: Why the puritans didn't like European social values.
Also see: Where the puritans went.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
Ohhhhh burn, you sure showed me
karasu
Member
haha
ThroneZwei
Banned
But...somebody is wrong on the internet...I cannot let this injustice slide. Nah, I understand. I believe most people showing an outrage haven't been close to the series to understand.
@Morrigan-Sorry, I couldn't resist.
I don't have a problem with it.
But -- BUT -- we're talking about a game character, made by a dude, and said dude is a well-documented perv who has her behaving like that in completely inexplicable settings and circumstances.
There's not nearly enough character development to make it nearly believable that Naomi, of all people, would just dress like that all the time.
It's just Kojima, being a bro. You do not want to brodown with him.
Don't worry, we don't give a fuck about violence or gore so it balances it out. Being attractive or being related to sex is 100x worse than killing and torturing people. Yay violence!
Fuck yeah America!
you guys are too much. Such reactions.
I hope Kojima goes tantrum hard and cancels the game.
I don't mean to be a bastard. But all this outrage is really very convincing.
Don't worry. Meritocracy points have a very short expiration period.
I hope Kojima goes tantrum hard and cancels the game.
I don't mean to be a bastard. But all this outrage is really very convincing.
Don't worry. Meritocracy points have a very short expiration period.
It's not a matter of America getting worked up over sexuality, it's America not caring for shitty storytelling being trotted out as cover-up for Kojima designing characters with his dick.
Again, for the record, I like Quiet's design. No problems with it. Naomi and B&B corps are the ones that are truly silly. But whatevs, it's MGS, not like the bar's high or something.
Play The Last of Us if you want a good story with thoughtfully developed characters.
Again, for the record, I like Quiet's design. No problems with it. Naomi and B&B corps are the ones that are truly silly. But whatevs, it's MGS, not like the bar's high or something.
Play The Last of Us if you want a good story with thoughtfully developed characters.
polyh3dron
Banned
Naomi: "Well, if you come back in one piece, maybe I'll let you do a strip search on me."
Sounding pretty sex-positive right there. This isn't uncommon for sex-positive people by a long shot. Sex-positive street protests lately have had people taking pride in dressing akin to Quiet and the like.
Last comment on the matter since you seem pretty adamant that there is only one reason that was added and not anything but that one.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
Once again, why do you fail to see the difference between a real-life woman dressing according to her own choice, and the objectified portrayal of women in gaming? Apparently this is really fucking difficult to grasp because many of us have been trying to explain it 'til we're blue in the face, but I'm really about to give up because I don't know how it can be made clearer.
It's cool, I just wonder if you realize that I don't even have a penis, though.
lol, someone always gets me with that in these topics
You'd be wrong thought. A lot of MGS fans are thinking this is just tacky. I own every MGS game and clocked hundreds of hours in MGO (MGS4 edition).
Trent Strong
Banned
I don't care if video games have shitty storytelling. They're games. I play games for their mechanics and systems, not their stories. If I want a good story I'll watch a movie or TV show or read a book. And if I want a good story with thoughtfully developed characters I won't play The Last of Us, which is the equivalent of a mid-tier movie at best, I'll watch The Wire or The Sopranos or I'll read.
captainpat
Member
By "a lot" you probably mean a dozen or so people on message boards.
- Status