Support NeoGAF

[ChiTownBuffalo]

I can't beleive I just sent in my CV to be a State's Attorney.

 

[gravitybear]

Go to law school if at least one of of the following things apply to you:

1)Being a lawyer is really what you want to do in life, your dream profession.

2)You can get get through it without debt, get a full ride scholarship, etc.(unlikely, but I do know one classmate who did this, so I thought I'd mention it)

3)You can get into a top tier school.

If none of these things apply to you, you're better off not going to law school. Too much debt, too few jobs, and few people are cut out to handle the actual workload without going nuts in the process.

nailed but, dude I would say only if ALL apply.

DONT GO TO LAW SCHOOL BECAUSE YOU DONT KNOW WHAT TO DO

except for the top 10% of the top 30 schools the pay scale is the same as the undergraduate payscale.

i.e. you will start out at 40k if you are lucky, with no other benefits (health/401k etc).

Youll be lucky if you make 80k after 5 years of work. So unless you want to be a lawyer AND its paid for, don't do it.

heres a sample of you in 3 years if you dont get top 10% of a top tier school:

http://newyork.craigslist.org/mnh/lgl/2564434132.html

 

[Bboy AJ]

Isn't Chicago starting to do pretty well with that track?

Oh yeah, Chicago is up there for academia, too. Safe bet.

 

[Seraphinianus]

I thought I knew almost nothing, and it turns out I still knew less than I thought I did. The only things I knew about actual practicing came from prior clerkships, and they were pretty limited. To me, it was very hard to get going, as I was constantly paralyzed by the fear I was going to screw up. I used to just sit there and stare at pleadings I was supposed to sign, lol. I think that's natural.

i have to say, of all my classes to scare me off from wanting to practice, our ethics class did it. Made the whole thing seem like a big minefield, emphasizing how you have to keep your private life totally clean, etc. I guess that's when the actual scope of the responsibility hit me and why I decided to be a legal librarian instead, despite having to go to grad school for another year (or really, anything besides being a lawyer, depending on what crosses my path between now and graduation.)

2)You can get get through it without debt, get a full ride scholarship, etc.(unlikely, but I do know one classmate who did this, so I thought I'd mention it)

meh, even then, it's not really a good reason...even knowing I'll be debt free hasn't been much comfort.

I've been telling people a) don't go to law school and b) if you're going to ignore a), then to at least research the living fuck out of it and most importantly, see if they can go hang out on a law campus for a few days and sit in on some classes. and get any kind of law-related job they can before school. To make sure they don't totally hate it.

 

[Jintor]

If anybody here can enlighten me as to why my Property and Equity course research paper is either requiring me to argue against tax concessions on charities via Marcel Mauss OR against the decision in Gilmour v Coates (i.e. that the advancement of religion without sufficient public benefit is not charitable)? I don't get the relationship at all.

Australian jurisdiction.

 

[mre]

If anybody here can enlighten me as to why my Property and Equity course research paper is either requiring me to argue against tax concessions on charities via Marcel Mauss OR against the decision in Gilmour v Coates (i.e. that the advancement of religion without sufficient public benefit is not charitable)? I don't get the relationship at all.

Australian jurisdiction.

Oh, it's really quite simple, you see. If you can't see the logical connection between general property law and the tax policy behind allowing charitable deductions you should probably just go ahead and give up your dream of ever becoming an attorney. Yep.

 

[Jintor]

;___;

 

[MechaX]

First week in and that "work you to death" mantra of 2L year is ringing especially true.

Kinda want to fast forward to 3L year where I can be bored to death while dying alone due to unemployment and student debt.

 

[mre]

;___;

It's a silly assignment as far as I can tell.

 

[Seraphinianus]

First week in and that "work you to death" mantra of 2L year is ringing especially true.

Kinda want to fast forward to 3L year where I can be bored to death while dying alone due to unemployment and student debt.

Someone read "Planet Law School" i hate that book so much. i've been telling people to avoid that book and anything that claims to convey what law school is like. I just tell them to learn how to read cases instead, that's literally the only thing you need to know beforehand. That and getting to know your particular school and curriculum.

1L kicked my ass, 2L was a breeze, and 3L will be the easiest, but I'll have to take the most credit hours yet (33 between 2 semesters.)

 

[mre]

I've never understood the people who loaded themselves down their 3L year. My final semester I took three classes, none of which had traditional exams.

 

[MechaX]

Someone read "Planet Law School" i hate that book so much. i've been telling people to avoid that book and anything that claims to convey what law school is like. I just tell them to learn how to read cases instead, that's literally the only thing you need to know beforehand. That and getting to know your particular school and curriculum.

1L kicked my ass, 2L was a breeze, and 3L will be the easiest, but I'll have to take the most credit hours yet (33 between 2 semesters.)

Never read it. But it says something when judges and attorneys in the like are pretty well familiar with the saying and continue to ask whether or not it still applies.

Plus, Journal is going to make 2L 300x worse in terms of pure workload most likely (which is why I didn't want to load myself down this semester to have a simple 3L year even though I really wanted to).

 

[SerArthurDayne]

I've never understood the people who loaded themselves down their 3L year. My final semester I took three classes, none of which had traditional exams.

I have to take 14 credits my final semester because my scholarship requires it, even though I only need 12 to graduate. Just fun/interesting classes, though. I never got summer credit. I'm not going to pay money to get credit for a job I'm doing for free. That is some bullshit.

2L was rougher to start in my opinion. I never had a hard time adjusting to law school in general, but the start of 2L year was bogged down by hunting for a summer job.

 

[AndyD]

I've never understood the people who loaded themselves down their 3L year. My final semester I took three classes, none of which had traditional exams.

Depends on the school too. Some schools have traditional full blown exams even as a 3L second semester and you can only take so many hours of independent work vs. traditional classroom.

I personally loaded up in my first semester as a 3L and graduated early. I had some hours banked from summer work the two summers, so I only needed one extra class to make it out of there early. In retrospect it was a great idea, saved a ton in loans.

And I graduated #1 in my class (of 3 graduating in December). LOL. We are hilariously technically considered a different class because the official graduation was in a different calendar year. But for all intents and purposes, and as far as every employer is concerned, they ask for our rank across the entire school. Which at first baffled the school because were not part of the May roster and were not factored into the whole equation. So the lady looked at the rough position of someone with my GPA and told me roughly what percentage he or she was.

 

[mre]

I have to take 14 credits my final semester because my scholarship requires it, even though I only need 12 to graduate. Just fun/interesting classes, though. I never got summer credit. I'm not going to pay money to get credit for a job I'm doing for free. That is some bullshit.

I never took summer classes either. I just took a shit ton of hours my 2L year and first semester of my 3L year. Finished up my final semester with 6 hours of classes plus 6 hours of banked law review classes.

 

[brucewaynegretzky]

Saw this thread bumped earlier and it reminded me I wanted to share this with Gaf. Some people at my school started a Twitter feed of some of the ridiculous stuff one of the profs here says during class. I just found it the other day and I found it REALLY entertaining.

http://twitter.com/#!/GaryPellerSays

 

[Jintor]

It's a silly assignment as far as I can tell.

Mrmm, well, I've got to find a connection or just waffle on for 1,500 words otherwise I instant-fail the course. Oh well!

 

[mre]

Mrmm, well, I've got to find a connection or just waffle on for 1,500 words otherwise I instant-fail the course. Oh well!

Man, all I have to go on is the quick google search that lead me to some Aussie course descriptions for Property and Equity courses. If you can provide me with more information I'll try to think on it harder, but there is no readily apparent connection.

Have you tried talking with your professor?

 

[Jintor]

I'll talk it over with my tutor on Monday, while I send something around by email to the course head convener. I'm a little reluctant to post the whole question on here cos, you know, it's the line between 'asking for help to figure out wtf i'm supposed to do' and 'omg do my question plz'...

 

[adam.chance]

I was stupid and went to a sub top 100 school. I was seriously depressed (like almost killing myself depressed) and felt like I needed to go for some dumb reason. I have a partial scholarship, but I will end with a ton of debt. I am a 3L now, with no job prospects and I am freaking out about what I am going to do. The only thing I have going for me is that, 1. I met the girl of my dreams at school (so it ended up being worth it to go to law school), 2. I am going to Tokyo in December for a study abroad at Temple University, which is another dream of mine. I have been writing every firm that has an office in Tokyo to see if they want a free American intern, but no luck so far. I just felt like complaining. I have been trying to find different fields I can work in and start trying to break in to the field. Hospital Administration, corporate mid-management job, etc. Sigh. My girlfriend has a full ride and an impressive resume, so I am hoping that she will bring home the bacon . . . but she wants to help people

 

[mre]

I'll talk it over with my tutor on Monday, while I send something around by email to the course head convener. I'm a little reluctant to post the whole question on here cos, you know, it's the line between 'asking for help to figure out wtf i'm supposed to do' and 'omg do my question plz'...

You can PM it to me if you want to. I don't think there is anyone here that knows enough (or any?) Australian law, so you're in the clear there. I know that we're linked through our connection to British Common Law, but I'm sure there are sufficient differences that you'd be okay.

 

[mre]

I was stupid and went to a sub top 100 school. I was seriously depressed (like almost killing myself depressed) and felt like I needed to go for some dumb reason. I have a partial scholarship, but I will end with a ton of debt. I am a 3L now, with no job prospects and I am freaking out about what I am going to do. The only thing I have going for me is that, 1. I met the girl of my dreams at school (so it ended up being worth it to go to law school), 2. I am going to Tokyo in December for a study abroad at Temple University, which is another dream of mine. I have been writing every firm that has an office in Tokyo to see if they want a free American intern, but no luck so far. I just felt like complaining. I have been trying to find different fields I can work in and start trying to break in to the field. Hospital Administration, corporate mid-management job, etc. Sigh. My girlfriend has a full ride and an impressive resume, so I am hoping that she will bring home the bacon . . . but she wants to help people

Heh. Mutually exclusive goals.

 

[Jintor]

Thanks mre, I really appreciate it.

 

[mre]

Thanks mre, I really appreciate it.

No problem. Is there a chance that your professor handed out the wrong assignment because that was just... wow. So irrelevant that I can't even see a logical connection between them and your course that would justify making them the central thrust to your essay questions.

 

[Jintor]

That's the conclusion that I came to, but it seems... completely bizarre and out of left field.

Apparently the person who wrote the question is a tax law and philosophy professor, but I still can't account for that degree of incompetance...

 

[AstroLad]

I was stupid and went to a sub top 100 school. I was seriously depressed (like almost killing myself depressed) and felt like I needed to go for some dumb reason. I have a partial scholarship, but I will end with a ton of debt. I am a 3L now, with no job prospects and I am freaking out about what I am going to do. The only thing I have going for me is that, 1. I met the girl of my dreams at school (so it ended up being worth it to go to law school), 2. I am going to Tokyo in December for a study abroad at Temple University, which is another dream of mine. I have been writing every firm that has an office in Tokyo to see if they want a free American intern, but no luck so far. I just felt like complaining. I have been trying to find different fields I can work in and start trying to break in to the field. Hospital Administration, corporate mid-management job, etc. Sigh. My girlfriend has a full ride and an impressive resume, so I am hoping that she will bring home the bacon . . . but she wants to help people

just keep trying and don't get too down. there are a lot of people in your same position

 

[Pollux]

I was stupid and went to a sub top 100 school. I was seriously depressed (like almost killing myself depressed) and felt like I needed to go for some dumb reason. I have a partial scholarship, but I will end with a ton of debt. I am a 3L now, with no job prospects and I am freaking out about what I am going to do. The only thing I have going for me is that, 1. I met the girl of my dreams at school (so it ended up being worth it to go to law school), 2. I am going to Tokyo in December for a study abroad at Temple University, which is another dream of mine. I have been writing every firm that has an office in Tokyo to see if they want a free American intern, but no luck so far. I just felt like complaining. I have been trying to find different fields I can work in and start trying to break in to the field. Hospital Administration, corporate mid-management job, etc. Sigh. My girlfriend has a full ride and an impressive resume, so I am hoping that she will bring home the bacon . . . but she wants to help people

I'm in the same place as you in the sense I went to a school that isn't stellar nationally, but in the top 100. My only saving grace is that around 40-50% of the lawyers in the city in which i live and go to school also went to my school. Big city too not just some random town in the middle of no where.

 

[Bboy AJ]

I was stupid and went to a sub top 100 school. I was seriously depressed (like almost killing myself depressed) and felt like I needed to go for some dumb reason. I have a partial scholarship, but I will end with a ton of debt. I am a 3L now, with no job prospects and I am freaking out about what I am going to do. The only thing I have going for me is that, 1. I met the girl of my dreams at school (so it ended up being worth it to go to law school), 2. I am going to Tokyo in December for a study abroad at Temple University, which is another dream of mine. I have been writing every firm that has an office in Tokyo to see if they want a free American intern, but no luck so far. I just felt like complaining. I have been trying to find different fields I can work in and start trying to break in to the field. Hospital Administration, corporate mid-management job, etc. Sigh. My girlfriend has a full ride and an impressive resume, so I am hoping that she will bring home the bacon . . . but she wants to help people

That sucks but remember, you are not alone. Just keep applying to jobs like it is your job. Don't be suicidally depressed, man. There are a ton others like you and probably in worse shoes. Keep at it, brother! We are all in it together at Law GAF.

 

[adam.chance]

Thanks for the reminders that I am not alone. I have gotten a lot better with my depression in the last six months. Meeting my girlfriend, getting out of a terrible past relationship, going to therapy, and getting on medication has been a huge help. Lately, the hardest thing for me has been trying to not get stressed out about what I am going to do after school. Each day I have to tell myself at least a dozen times to not freak out.

I am hoping one of the firms in Japan will be a little interested in having a us intern, but I am not holding my breath. We will see. I am just glad to be going to Japan and getting away for a little while.

 

[brucewaynegretzky]

Awesome day at my internship today. Talked to my boss about potentially trying to get me a post-grad fellowship with my department through the city. He said it was definitely worth a conversation later. O god please happen!!!!!!!!!!

 

[mre]

That's the conclusion that I came to, but it seems... completely bizarre and out of left field.

Apparently the person who wrote the question is a tax law and philosophy professor, but I still can't account for that degree of incompetance...

How'd it turn out?

 

[Gila]

Dunno if this newb question has already been posted..

I've been watching a lot of Law shows recently, so I have a bit of an interest in law and trials and whatnot...

Can anyone just go to a courtroom and sit and watch trials happening there? (I'm in BC Canada if that makes any difference)

 

[PBY]

about three weeks in to my first year- kinda feel like im fucking up already, going out way too much and not doing enough work yet haha.

Im about to buckle down and really get cracking, anyone have any advice theyd wanna impart?

 

[mingus]

Dunno if this newb question has already been posted..

I've been watching a lot of Law shows recently, so I have a bit of an interest in law and trials and whatnot...

Can anyone just go to a courtroom and sit and watch trials happening there? (I'm in BC Canada if that makes any difference)

Most of the trials in the US are supposed to be public, Canada shouldn't be any different. I did a bit of googling and the BC court website is pretty clear on procedures for observing: http://www.courts.gov.bc.ca/frequently_asked_questions.aspx.

about three weeks in to my first year- kinda feel like im fucking up already, going out way too much and not doing enough work yet haha.

Im about to buckle down and really get cracking, anyone have any advice theyd wanna impart?

I did terribly but some of the blame went to not knowing exactly how to answer exam questions. Didn't think reading Getting to Maybe was worth it before but in retrospect it probably could have helped.

 

[apana]

Any good LSAT threads on GAF? I have a free year to study for the LSAT since I'm living for almost free with some friends for now. Which LSAT is the easiest? I heard the June one tends to be the most unforgiving because smarter students tend to take in June.

 

[PBY]

Any good LSAT threads on GAF? I have a free year to study for the LSAT since I'm living for almost free with some friends for now. Which LSAT is the easiest? I heard the June one tends to be the most unforgiving because smarter students tend to take in June.

First of all theyre on a "curve" so that shouldn't really matter. My advice? Read top-law-schools.com, that website literally took me from probably getting around a 160 to around 10 points higher. Seriously, its a great, great resource.

 

[brucewaynegretzky]

First of all theyre on a "curve" so that shouldn't really matter. My advice? Read top-law-schools.com, that website literally took me from probably getting around a 160 to around 10 points higher. Seriously, its a great, great resource.

And soul crushingly depressing. Take in moderate doses. Gaf it is not.

 

[Attackthebase]

And soul crushingly depressing. Take in moderate doses. Gaf it is not.

More depressing than Gaf? Fuck, I'm scared to look at that site.

 

[mre]

Any good LSAT threads on GAF? I have a free year to study for the LSAT since I'm living for almost free with some friends for now. Which LSAT is the easiest? I heard the June one tends to be the most unforgiving because smarter students tend to take in June.

When do you want to start law school? 2012 or 2013?

 

[Bay Maximus]

I am studying for my LSAT now and to be frank, this thread is scaring the hell out of me. My undergrad GPA isn't spectacular, so I doubt I'll get into a T14 school (although I'll give it a shot). So what is the verdict on 'Tier 2' schools though? If I can get into one am I good? Or is it too oversaturated to take that risk? Also, if anyone is familiar, how much do they value different experiences and all that? More specifically, will it help at all if I told them after completing my undergrad I got an AA in Korean and now work at the NSA? Thanks in advance Law-GAF

 

[Attackthebase]

I am studying for my LSAT now and to be frank, this thread is scaring the hell out of me. My undergrad GPA isn't spectacular, so I doubt I'll get into a T14 school (although I'll give it a shot). So what is the verdict on 'Tier 2' schools though? If I can get into one am I good? Or is it too oversaturated to take that risk? Also, if anyone is familiar, how much do they value different experiences and all that? More specifically, will it help at all if I told them after completing my undergrad I got an AA in Korean and now work at the NSA? Thanks in advance Law-GAF

I hear tier 2 is certainly doable for getting a decent job. However, if you can't get into a tier 2 school, then bail out.

If I may ask, what's your GPA btw?

 

[mre]

I am studying for my LSAT now and to be frank, this thread is scaring the hell out of me. My undergrad GPA isn't spectacular, so I doubt I'll get into a T14 school (although I'll give it a shot). So what is the verdict on 'Tier 2' schools though? If I can get into one am I good? Or is it too oversaturated to take that risk? Also, if anyone is familiar, how much do they value different experiences and all that? More specifically, will it help at all if I told them after completing my undergrad I got an AA in Korean and now work at the NSA? Thanks in advance Law-GAF

It can't hurt. Work it into your essay or your interview if you have one.

 

[Bay Maximus]

I hear tier 2 is certainly doable for getting a decent job. However, if you can't get into a tier 2 school, then bail out.

If I may ask, what's your GPA btw?

Yeah, if I can get into a tier 2 school at a state I'm willing to work in I'll go with no delay. Big if though. My GPA is 3.2 for my marketing undergrad, so I have my work cut out for me that's for sure. One of the reasons I've been studying so hard for this LSAT.

 

[Parallel]

I'm a practicing lawyer now (about 2 months now).

1. Don't even think that you'll be making a lot of dough from the start.

2. There are some things I enjoy and some things I hate. Since I work in private practice, client demands are true and a nightmare. Sometimes, I can't even get my work done because I'm talking to clients all day.

3. I also work in a small law firm (3 associate attorneys, including myself) so each of us manage at least 25+ cases ranging from civil litigation, family law, bankruptcy, criminal, immigration and appeals. Believe me, my first week was so stressful, I thought I was going to explode.

Bottom Line: you better be committed in wanting to be a lawyer. If not...I would not recommend it.

 

[Bay Maximus]

I'm a practicing lawyer now (about 2 months now).

1. Don't even think that you'll be making a lot of dough from the start.

2. There are some things I enjoy and some things I hate. Since I work in private practice, client demands are true and a nightmare. Sometimes, I can't even get my work done because I'm talking to clients all day.

3. I also work in a small law firm (3 associate attorneys, including myself) so each of us manage at least 25+ cases ranging from civil litigation, family law, bankruptcy, criminal, immigration and appeals. Believe me, my first week was so stressful, I thought I was going to explode.

Bottom Line: you better be committed in wanting to be a lawyer. If not...I would not recommend it.

Good info to remember. So how difficult was it to find a job? Did you go to a tier 1 or tier 2 school? How many hours a week would you say you average? Sorry for the interrogation, just curious.

 

[Parallel]

Good info to remember. So how difficult was it to find a job? Did you go to a tier 1 or tier 2 school? How many hours a week would you say you average? Sorry for the interrogation, just curious.

I went to a tier 1 law school. I graduated May 2010, took the California bar July 2010 and was sworn in December 2010. I couldn't find a job until last month, so I was unemployed for almost eight months.

Regarding my hours, I work about 12 to 13 hours on a good day. I also come into the office on the weekends as well.

 

[commish]

I went to a tier 1 law school. I graduated May 2010, took the California bar July 2010 and was sworn in December 2010. I couldn't find a job until last month, so I was unemployed for almost eight months.

Regarding my hours, I work about 12 to 13 hours on a good day. I also come into the office on the weekends as well.

You work a shitload more than I do!

 

[Jintor]

How'd it turn out?

Tutor was all "Just suck it up and do it", said it more or less wasn't really about property and equity, research essay not connected to the course yada yada yada. Total bullshit but by this point I just really wanted to stop thinking about the damn thing so I just churned something out and handed it in.

Blargh.

 

[NZer]

Just how different are money prospects (if you get a job) at the different tiers? In fact, is asking how much lawyers make starting out, 5 years later, and 10 years later a horrible faux pas even on GAF? Because if not, here I am asking that very question.

Spoiler

To level with you guys, I am not and will never be a lawyer. But I am curious. And in my own field I HATE how salary/prospects/progression is a taboo, so HEAPS of people are naive going in. Openness may seem brazen and greedy, but information is better than assumptions.

 

[Bboy AJ]

Regarding my hours, I work about 12 to 13 hours on a good day. I also come into the office on the weekends as well.

Holy crap, that's way too much working.

Just how different are money prospects (if you get a job) at the different tiers? In fact, is asking how much lawyers make starting out, 5 years later, and 10 years later a horrible faux pas even on GAF? Because if not, here I am asking that very question.

]To level with you guys, I am not and will never be a lawyer. But I am curious. And in my own field I HATE how salary/prospects/progression is a taboo, so HEAPS of people are naive going in. Openness may seem brazen and greedy, but information is better than assumptions.[/SPOILER]

Basically anyone in, say, the top 50 have a shot, though not very good, at getting a market paying job ($160k). Prospects get better as you go up the ladder. There are probably about 30 schools where being top 1/3 of the class can get you that typical market job. About 10 where top half will give you a shot. And there are about three schools where getting that job is a lock (Yale, Stanford, maybe Chicago because of their small class size).