blahblah...blah
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Just signed my employment contract, I am now a future lawyer (grades permitting!)
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Law School & Lawyer GAF
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Bboy AJ
My dog was murdered by a 3.5mm audio port and I will not rest until the standard is dead
Yeah, that's starting.NZer said:
Here's how deep the rabbit hole goes: http://www.infirmation.com/shared/search/payscale-compare.tcl?city=New+York
Those who don't get a market paying job get $40k jobs or unemployment. There are other jobs that pay around $80k but it's more likely someone will get a market job or a $40k job (local govt). Federal government pays well. DOJ Honors get around $60k, Military JAGs get around $80k (plus $65k loan repayment, depending on the branch). Smaller firms around $60k-$80k.
Market paying means what the legal market typically pays. Basically every big firm pays $160k starting, in certain markets. NYC is $160k but I think down south, say, Atlanta, it's $145k.
blahblah...blah
Member
Bboy AJ said:
Quick question for you - first year associate salaries in the UK tend to be £65,000, which is about $100,000 - $110,000. Not bad, but nowhere near the levels of US 1st year associates. Now, the US firms with a solid UK presence (Latham, Weil, White & Case, etc.) pay their UK associates £100,000 ($155,000 - $165,000) as a 1st year - what is it exactly that makes this wage differential in the UK sustainable?
Do they expect more hours of their UK workers, do they expect them to take fewer holidays, is it because these firms tend to be almost entirely corporate and don't have a presence in less-lucrative sectors? I've wondered how these US firms have been able to pay an extra £35,000 a year at the outset compared to UK firms.
Bboy AJ said:
$160k is the average the legal market pays? I'm pretty sure the average salary is far, far less. Only about, what, 5% of legal entry level jobs pay $160k? If we limit the legal market to large big city law firms, then I'd agree, but that's just a small subset...
Bboy AJ
My dog was murdered by a 3.5mm audio port and I will not rest until the standard is dead
Here's the original question:commish said:
Then a bunch of other posts, illustrating the context I posted in. You're right, of course, but I figured the context made my posts pretty clear...NZer said:
Bboy AJ said:
I think you said market or govt, but then clarified market as 100k+. I think the breakdown is more like this:
Local/State govt jobs - 30-60k
Small/medium Firm - 30-80k (Small as in less than 10-20 or so attys).
Federal govt - 60-100k
Large Firm - 80k-120k+ (Large as in mega firms in most cities). Also only accounts for about 5% of the legal jobs, if that, and usually available only to very top of your class at good schools.
And all those depend by market. A small firm in Alabama will certainly pay less than a small firm in NY city. And a govt job in DC will pay more than a govt job in rural Tennessee.
I know people who are just starting out in NY, first years, at less than 60K at medium sized firms. And people in Atlanta starting at 40k at medium firms with no partnership track.
All in all, the legal field is not all its cracked up to be right now, and I would not incur more than 50k in loans to get a legal degree, no matter the school. The prospects, even for top schools are pretty grim, unless you are at the very top of your class.
Seraphinianus
Banned
mre said:
1L scared the shit out of me, so i chilled for 2L to get used to things and get my GPA back up.
It's just pushing elective credits forward because law school electives are cake walks, generally. I think I'll have 7 classes next semester, but only 2 will have exams, if I sign up for the right stuff.
ah, i see. disregard my comment then...i guess it applies to people who did things correctly, unlike me haha
Manos: The Hans of Fate
Banned
Hell no. Parents, yes or at least strongly recommended. Copyright and trademark, not at all.zmoney said:
brucewaynegretzky
Member
AstroLad said:
Semi-related question applicable to everyone: Do you socialize with a lot of lawyers? The one thing I think I did right when I got to law school was making sure I spent most of my "social" time with people outside the law. I don't think I could stand spending my free time with laywers/law students. Student housing 1L seemed like its soul purpose was to fuck with people's heads. I see "law people" at school and at my externship. When it get home I went to be talking to my gf, undergrad, or HS friends. I've made a few friends in law school too obviously, but whenever I socialize with them the law inevitably becomes a topic of conversation and that's just depressing, and extremely boring for my gf.
Pollux
Member
I hang out with my gf and friends from undergrad.brucewaynegretzky said:
My gf hates the people i've met in law school that she has also met, thinks they're all a bunch of pretentious assholes. they are, and i don't get it, its not like we go to a stellar school or anything. oh well.
the best peace of advice i was given at orientation is to not focus on ANYTHING someone else is doing as far as work goes. i'll get to school in the morning around 830 (live off campus) have a few hours of classes, study in the library or at a deli down the street between classes, then hit the books in the library till around 630. Then i close everything and go home. Hang out with the gf, play some xbox or something. Whereas my gf's best friend also is a 1L with me and lives in teh library till around 11. i have no idea what she's doing, we don't have a heavy work load yet. *maybe i'm doing something terribly wrong here....*
i feel like i understand what's happening at the moment. the only class i'm mildly worried about is civ. pro., but contracts is amazing. its like a puzzle, trying to apply common law and the ucc to a given situation.
back to what you were asking, i can't hang out with the law school people because ALL THEY TALK ABOUT is law school. on a sat. night that's the last thing i want.
I mean i know lawyers, know some DA's and a couple private practice attorneys, and that's enough for me, don't feel the need to socialize with my peers in school on a sat. night. I see them enough throughout the week.
sorry this was so long winded but this is the rare night i'm up actually doing work. property hw now, he emailed us the assignment around 4 hours ago and just got it as i was going to bed.
Manos: Thanks for the response. Thats what I thought too, but I figured I would just ask y'all before going to my prof and looking like an idiot asking him.
Para bailar La Bomba
Banned
blahblah...blah said:
Baker & McKenzie?
brucewaynegretzky
Member
zmoney said:
I can tell you a lot of this is the stereotypical 1L "scare you to death." It will get better. However, for me it never really became the type of environment I'd want to center my social life around. Some people seem to be different though. Also I think everyone "shapes" their time in law school differently from what I can tell. For me its been around the work I've done where I've been interning for a while now. For others its journal, or moot court, or something like amnesty or the innocence project, I also know some pretty hardcore fed soc people. Maybe for me focusing on "work" has made me separate "law" from "social" but it certainly doesn't appear to be that way for a lot of people I know in school, or even a lot of attorneys that come through campus for whatever reason. Strangely enough though the attorneys in my office seem to separate the law from their personal lives as best as possible as well.
Pollux
Member
brucewaynegretzky said:
As far as that goes, if I feel like I'm understanding everything the profs. are throwing at me (issues, holdings, applications to fact patterns, etc) should I be worried? I've heard that if you think you really understand what's happening as a 1L you probably don't understand it at all.
Should I be looking at things more closely? Or am i REALLY over thinking all this?
brucewaynegretzky
Member
I probably don't have enough perspective on all of that to give you any worthwhile advice. Still being a student without a job lined up makes anything I could say to you relatively useless as far as I can tell....
brucewaynegretzky
Member
peterb0y said:
The only thing I will say is make sure you spend time looking at old exams, but that's really just common sense. There are people here who probably had way better grades than I have so it's probably better to listen to them. Your school will give you plenty of opportunities to get advice from more experienced students.
Pollux
Member
Yea, my school isn't even close to NYU lol, but I only have myself to blame for partying way too hard during undergrad..Only 3 classes? I got - Contracts, Property, Civ. Pro., Crim., Torts, and Legal Writing. But all of those classes except Crim. are two semesters. Crim. is one and then Constitutional Law is one.peterb0y said:
I'll be honest, I'll take all the advice/help I can get.brucewaynegretzky said:
Para bailar La Bomba
Banned
peterb0y said:
1. Summarize all your readings in one document.
2. Read all you're summarized notes every week.
3. Do as many practice exams and practice questions you can get your hands on.
Special tip for gamers:
Set your xbox/ps3 timer to 45 minutes a day. Get a friend to set the parental control password.
Silentium
Member
Australia represent!Jintor said:
The stuff I read in this thread makes me feel for my american brothers. I'm at a Go8 (our ivy league I suppose - wow I sound like a tool) university doing arts/law double degree, and will graduate with around $45,000 in no interest student loans that don't have to be repaid until I earn over $50k :S. Starting salaries are quite a bit lower here though, maybe looking at around $60-70k in big law.
So its 2L year, and its hard for me to be motivated. The reason being: I'm finally taking interesting class but I planned it so these group of girls who are top 10% all have taken at least one of my classes this year. I hit them up for notes and...well...
I now have in all fives classes: ubermeticulous notes (which is often verbatim what the prof says), 50 page+ outlines, and answers to most problems in all my books. I don't know what to do except...slack off?
Gotten cold called twice, maybe 20 mins of looking over their notes for that day, and got through it swimmingly. Only problem is wills/trusts since there were some recent rule changes for my state, but damn is it nice. Tell me I should be worried, cause I panic sometimes still.
I now have in all fives classes: ubermeticulous notes (which is often verbatim what the prof says), 50 page+ outlines, and answers to most problems in all my books. I don't know what to do except...slack off?
Gotten cold called twice, maybe 20 mins of looking over their notes for that day, and got through it swimmingly. Only problem is wills/trusts since there were some recent rule changes for my state, but damn is it nice. Tell me I should be worried, cause I panic sometimes still.
brucewaynegretzky
Member
Para bailar La Bomba said:
Then lend it to your friend two weeks prior to finals. You probably won't need the motivation but better safe than sorry. I'm a big crammer so that three week period before finals is generally miserable. Obviously I read all semester, but my notes are typically terrible so I go back in each class and reteach myself and build a nice clean document.
Don't take that as something you SHOULD do though. I get the feeling that a lot of people who tell you "how" to study ignore that seem people just work better in different circumstances. For example, I can't work in libraries. They freak me out. But everyone was always telling me I was a slacker 1L year because I wasn't staying late in the library. I read at my desk at home and took 10 minute breaks when I was overwhelmed. You need to find a pace at which you can digest the information. Don't let people tell you what it "should" be.
Pollux
Member
brucewaynegretzky said:
Agreed. I can only really do things at the library b/c there are no real distractions. home has the tv, the xbox, food, etc. I find (so far at least) that by treating it as a 8:30 am - 6:00 pm job, and doing nothing but law during those hours with some small breaks thrown in, seems to be working. We'll see when finals role around.
Good thing for me is that I tend to take pretty decent notes (at least they work for me, which is the point) so hopefully I won't need to completely reteach myself something in December.
Para bailar La Bomba
Banned
One of the worst things you can do is rely on other people's notes -- the whole learning process occurs when you're actually taking the notes.
Also, it's important you read cases rather than rely on summaries of cases; summaries usually only tell you the outcome, not the judges' reasoning which is really what you need to know.
Also, it's important you read cases rather than rely on summaries of cases; summaries usually only tell you the outcome, not the judges' reasoning which is really what you need to know.
brucewaynegretzky
Member
Para bailar La Bomba said:
This is true to a degree. Old outlines can be really useful though if they were made with an exam in mind. Most professors have certain things they care about in an exam that are relatively arbitrary. Old outlines/notes paired with old tests and answers can help in that regard. Also, I'm personally a fan of going back a few years and reading a professor's "best answer" for one of their older exams before you take any practice exams on the new ones. It helps you find that balance between "what the prof wants" and "what the answer is." Finding the prof's voice seems to be a difference maker. I say this as an aggressively mediocre student. I'm apparently really bad at figuring out what sets apart the "best" students and really good at avoiding whatever mistakes the "bad" students are making.
Para bailar La Bomba
Banned
brucewaynegretzky said:
At my law school, competition was so intense that incorrect notes were often circulated. Also don't forget the law changes, so relying on older notes/exam answers is a gamble.
Manos: The Hans of Fate
Banned
So I already am a NY Bar member, but because of my MBE score I can if I want waive into DC instead of waiting (I could, not sure if the deadline passed, get into Minnesota too) 6 years or taking the test. Now I don't plane on moving to DC, but at the same time there is work in the area that I might find interesting. Now I suspect I would rarely (if ever)need to appear in a DC court, but I was wondering do people think it might be worth the cost to get admitted, just for more marketability and the fact that if I work in the District I would be a licensed lawyer right off the bat.
Not if you make sure it matches up to the book. NYU's website had a really really good site of outlines run by their SBA for free and often matched up to my books. Luckily though my law school never had the loony people trying to give fake notes and stuff. People were often really nice about that with outlines.
Then again I am one of the few people who do NOT learn via note taking. I learn from reading and actually verbally reviewing the thing. I just don't pick things up writing or typing for some reason.
Para bailar La Bomba said:
Not if you make sure it matches up to the book. NYU's website had a really really good site of outlines run by their SBA for free and often matched up to my books. Luckily though my law school never had the loony people trying to give fake notes and stuff. People were often really nice about that with outlines.
Then again I am one of the few people who do NOT learn via note taking. I learn from reading and actually verbally reviewing the thing. I just don't pick things up writing or typing for some reason.
Pollux
Member
Para bailar La Bomba said:
One thing I've noticed here is that while there is some level of competition it's not nearly as cut throat as I was expecting. I'd heard all the horror stories about the false notes and hiding books and stuff, but I've talked to some 2L's and 3L's, and they've said they haven't experienced anything like that. From my limited experience the majority of people are willing to share class notes, meet in study groups to discuss topics, and are generally easy going about everything as far as competition goes.
zmoney said:
For the most part that was my experience. Then I learned a few years after graduation that the top 10-15 in the class only met amongst themselves, and one had access to past exams as his dad had been vice chancellor or something and in a legal fraternity. They also knew each other going into the first year and had lunch with a few of the professors every Friday.
AndyD said:
You only really need a science background for certain types of patent work - e.g., patent drafting. To license, buy or sell most patents, it's not really necessary. To litigate patents, not always necessary though sometimes helpful, I'm told.
Attackthebase
Member
One of my brothers in my old fraternity told me he is attending a tier 4 law school right now. I had to hide my laughter and sighs. I couldn't break it to him that he made a major mistake. That's why I refuse to go to a law school if it isn't at least tier 2.
Seraphinianus
Banned
yeah, my school is not so bad that people circulate bad notes. Books occasionally get hidden around finals time, but it's always stupid crap-- like a 1L hiding an entire treatise on some 1L subject. Obviously, nobody really needs that book to learn and in the long run, it'd probably just screw up a 1L brain with even more information.
class notes + reading + maybe good outlines that other people made for the course + your own confidence = that's all you need! Don't get caught up in the commercial outline business.
There are no secret tricks or short cuts. BUT- once you get good at picking out rules and applying them, you can pretty much get Bs and As with just class notes + somebody else's outline. It's a skill you have to develop though.
also, gotta echo the comments about law school friends. I have brought a few people around to my group of friends and it just didn't work out... alternatively, a friend I made before law school also went, but ditched us for law school people and became kind of a giant douche. lol
I don't want to say everyone is bad, but after a few attempts that fell flat, I just kinda gave up because I have my own group of friends anyway. I'm going to grad school afterwards, so I have no need to network with them...
class notes + reading + maybe good outlines that other people made for the course + your own confidence = that's all you need! Don't get caught up in the commercial outline business.
There are no secret tricks or short cuts. BUT- once you get good at picking out rules and applying them, you can pretty much get Bs and As with just class notes + somebody else's outline. It's a skill you have to develop though.
also, gotta echo the comments about law school friends. I have brought a few people around to my group of friends and it just didn't work out... alternatively, a friend I made before law school also went, but ditched us for law school people and became kind of a giant douche. lol
I don't want to say everyone is bad, but after a few attempts that fell flat, I just kinda gave up because I have my own group of friends anyway. I'm going to grad school afterwards, so I have no need to network with them...
Pollux
Member
I would agree with you in 99% of the time, but I do think it depends on location, school, school's alumni base locally, and legal connections prior to law school.Attackthebase said:
If you go to a school in city X and 60% of lawyers in city X are alums, you'll be relatively OK if you want to stay in that city. If you want to leave, your screwed.
Also if you have a guaranteed job at a firm no matter where you go through family connections, fathers friend, etc. then just go where you can save money and get good grades.
Seraphinianus
Banned
zmoney said:
true. Chicago scene is weird like that. Ok, Northwestern and University of Chicago = you're guaranteed $100k a year (at your 200 hour a week job, cheers), but then Loyola, DePaul, and John Marshall are all kinda lowish tier, but respected just fine. John Marshall in particular is considered more of a victim of the tier system than a low tier school.
@Patent questions: You don't necessarily need a science degree. I have about 30 hours of science in undergrad, and am probably going to go the Route B way and just take 4 more hours of biology at my community college. My Patents prof said that as long as I understand what my client is talking about when filing, it doesn't matter if I had the degree or went Route B or C.
http://www.patentbarstudy.com/exam/qualifications.html
(Im doing the 8 hours chem plus 24 bio)
I wanted to thank whoever told me to apply to nontraditional places (Manos? Or the dude with the Dungy/Obama pic as the avatar?). I applied for a job with JCPenny for the summer, they were super nice, got an interview, and now got a call back for a second one. If I didn't get that push, I'd prolly be still holding on for the DOJ (which is hard to get). Now I don't really know what I'll be doing at JP other than mediation, contracts, and benefits...stuff? They weren't too clear about the last part. Maybe ERISA stuff? Dunno.
http://www.patentbarstudy.com/exam/qualifications.html
(Im doing the 8 hours chem plus 24 bio)
I wanted to thank whoever told me to apply to nontraditional places (Manos? Or the dude with the Dungy/Obama pic as the avatar?). I applied for a job with JCPenny for the summer, they were super nice, got an interview, and now got a call back for a second one. If I didn't get that push, I'd prolly be still holding on for the DOJ (which is hard to get). Now I don't really know what I'll be doing at JP other than mediation, contracts, and benefits...stuff? They weren't too clear about the last part. Maybe ERISA stuff? Dunno.
Manos: The Hans of Fate
Banned
Most likely me. Nontraditional legal jobs has been a bit of a catchphrase for me. I'm really happy how well it worked out for you. Honestly I think its going to be a more common route for law grads in the near future and not one viewed as not really doing legal work.exarkun said:
Pollux
Member
I know that's how Boston works. Harvard, BU, BC....cool. But the thing is around 75%+ of those grads leave Boston. Suffolk is lowish tier but is respected within Boston and New England. Northeastern, while ranked higher, is below Suffolk as far as the local firms perceptions go because they don't really have grades. But the do have a semester long internship program, which is a plus.Smision said:
A Suffolk grad would have little trouble finding a job within Boston, but it would be nearly impossible outside New England.