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[Crimsonclaw111]

Don't forget Bed of Chaos. Lmao so bad.

 

[Zocano]

Yeah, I mean they are a toned down version of the maneaters in terms of damage and health, but their AI is way, way better (i.e. they don't fly away for no reason), and you can't just heal through all the damage since they attack faster (and Estus is limited), so it's quite understandable that a beginner would have trouble with them.

They have a less brutal moveset though ):

Maneater charges and magic blasts are real.

Compartmentalized level structure makes replays a blast, and the sheer variety on display in the game mechanics and viable load outs makes ds2 the most fun game in the series from a pure mechanical sense. Not to mention the ng+ structure is by far the best in the series, leading to endless new escapades the deeper into the rabbit role you get.

Also, the level aesthetics variety is unmatched in any of the other games. Especially disappointing is ds3 in this regard, but that's for another topic.

I feel similarly the same. The "interconnected" level design does nothing for me when the distinct levels are generally really plain or uninteresting. I want distinct impactful levels to explore and a lot of the time the "connecting" bits in Dark Souls 1 were just hallways.

 

[Hypron]

They have a less brutal moveset though ):

Maneater charges and magic blasts are real.

Yeah but Maneaters leave you a lot of room to breathe. I just herb'ed my way through all my encounters with them. Even at SL1 the charge doesn't insta kill you so you can just heal right back up and carry on haha

 

[Fhtagn]

The thing I'm not a fan of hearing is when people start throwing around the term b team. I myself have done it but try not to anymore because saying that a development team is lesser than other is pretty insulting or at least not giving enough credit when credit is due. Even if it's true than a different development team made a game in a series no reason to call them a b team when they put probably just as much effort as the other team. Even if some consider a game not as good its not because the development team isn't as good as the other.

It is ridiculous. If anything it's not the team's fault that the initial director left the project and they effectively started over under serious time pressure, having to use assets already created, with an engine that never ran at an acceptable frame rate on console until they changed the lighting at the last second.

Basically the team that finished dark souls 2 got a raw deal in multiple ways and viewed through the lens of "this was a brutal development cycle" it's actually a miracle it's as good as it is (to which ymmv but as I've said I'm quite fond of it, gripes aside.)

The notable jump in quality for the dlc bears this out, I believe.

 

[Gxgear]

Going through SoFS to prepare for Dark Souls 3, good stuff. Pursuers out the ying yang compared to the original, goddamn.

 

[Zocano]

Yeah but Maneaters leave you a lot of room to breathe. I just herb'ed my way through all my encounters with them. Even at SL1 the charge doesn't insta kill you so you can just heal right back up and carry on haha

I actually like when bosses play the spacing game as much as you do. A lot of bosses like Ludwig from BB that just RARARARA SPAM SPAM SPAM aren't actually that fun to fight.

 

[Unfriendly TimeTraveler]

Well I can tell you that nothing else was grabbing my attention when I was walking through Lost Izalith, or when I got stomped by a wave of respawning skeletons in Tomb of Giants. Or when Seath got a free kill on me (how was that my fault?). Or when I got surrounded by buffed ghouls on the way to the Gargoyles, or when I got flung off a bridge when one of the lightning drakes did a quick 180 spin in the Valley of Drakes. Or when I got knocked off of the top of Anor Londo when I got hit with great arrows on a pencil thin walkway.

I could go on but I'm hoping you get the point. At this stage it's making me look like I have an agenda against the first game which is absolutely untrue.

Oh no I'm not saying ds1 is without its bullshit cause it does have moments where bs happens (you forgot the bone wheels). But it happens a lot more in ds2 overall. I will say with some of those cases they are a one time deal. With the hollows, after you kill the Mage they aren't buffed anymore and can be corralled in the hallway to deal with and can be killed easily. With the great bow moment it can always be solved with blocking until he switched weapons. The rest are problematic (and not going to tell you how to deal with it because not going to tell you how to play a game you know how to play plus the drake death is just jankyness in the game) but will ask aren't you suppose to die the first time you meet seath? my memory of that is foggy but I believe that's suppose to happen.

 

[Nerokis]

The thing I'm not a fan of hearing is when people start throwing around the term b team. I myself have done it but try not to anymore because saying that a development team is lesser than other is pretty insulting or at least not giving enough credit when credit is due. Even if it's true than a different development team made a game in a series no reason to call them a b team when they put probably just as much effort as the other team. Even if some consider a game not as good its not because the development team isn't as good as the other.

Yep. It also just doesn't acknowledge that there's a not insignificant group of people who adore DS2 - for them, invoking the "B-team" thing is meaningless. Miyazaki recently mentioned in an interview that you saw the preferences of a different director in DS2, which particularly manifested itself in terms of things like world design. It didn't have the interconnectedness, for example, that Miyazaki loves. But as someone who's come to deeply appreciate DS2's quirkiness among the SoulsBorne games, I think it's incredibly cool that there's a game in the series that both subverts expectations and representations a great interpretation of the Souls formula.

I think that's the main thing I dislike about the B-team talk, aside from being insulting: it mixes up differences in approach with actual inferiority. To me, DS2 is a wonderful combination of refinements, subversions, and flaws. It was such an interesting experience going through it after being so immersed in DS1.

 

[DorkLord54]

It is ridiculous. If anything it's not the team's fault that the initial director left the project and they effectively started over under serious time pressure, having to use assets already created, with an engine that never ran at an acceptable frame rate on console until they changed the lighting at the last second.

Basically the team that finished dark souls 2 got a raw deal in multiple ways and viewed through the lens of "this was a brutal development cycle" it's actually a miracle it's as good as it is (to which ymmv but as I've said I'm quite fond of it, gripes aside.)

The notable jump in quality for the dlc bears this out, I believe.

Yeah, a lot of people forget how troubled the game's development was, and how the project was basically Halo 2 all over again in this regard (something Destiny would repeat that same year, ironically by Bungie once again). It's really noticeable, but the fact that they were able to get the game together at all is astounding. Truly have to give Tanimura props for that. And yeah, B-Team is a lazy insult, especially since there are things just as bad in the Miyazaki games. *glares at Anor Londo archers, BoC, and Micolash spamming ACfB*

Also, if someone can clarify, why did Shibuya leave the project?

 

[Slick Butter]

but will ask aren't you suppose to die the first time you meet seath? my memory of that is foggy but I believe that's suppose to happen.

You are, but it's pretty dumb because there's no warning and no way to avoid it. The only thing they give you is that you can just walk right back out of the fog wall, although you probably won't know you can do that because you can't anywhere else in the game.

I have to say, considering the stuff this game apparently went through during development, I'm impressed with what Tanimura managed to come up with with the dev team after Shibuya left the project.
Also, the fact that people, including me, were so disappointed with it really only tells you how good the original Dark Souls was.

 

[Zocano]

I think that's the main thing I dislike about the B-team talk, aside from being insulting: it mixes up differences in approach with actual inferiority. To me, DS2 is a wonderful combination of refinements, subversions, and flaws. It was such an interesting experience going through it after being so immersed in DS1.

Going off a similar note, I am hearing the phrase "the real Dark Souls 2" or "the sequel we should have gotten" about Dark Souls 3. And I'm hearing it a looot. And while I get where it's coming from, I find it equally dismissive and inflammatory towards the Dark Souls 2 team.

 

[Malcolm9]

Shame we're in this pre-DS3 phase where people are rushing through the games. The Ivory King DLC is probably my favorite of the bunch. So good.

Based on what people have said earlier about the import thread, I'm looking forward to seeing how the OT for the Western release goes. It could be a beautiful, beautiful thing...or we could get a combination of constant DS2 shitting, and importers doing that thing some Game of Thrones book readers do in the show thread.

I'm not rushing through it though, I've pretty much done everything and explored all the DLC apart from the Frigid Outskirts. I've been playing for over 100 hours currently, this is my original play through.

Finally beat the Blue Smelter Demon, fairly straightforward in the end, just the delayed attacks that you need to be cautious with.

 

[ZangBa]

People acting like the DS2 team censored some panties, smh.

 

[Hypron]

Yep. It also just doesn't acknowledge that there's a not insignificant group of people who adore DS2 - for them, invoking the "B-team" thing is meaningless. Miyazaki recently mentioned in an interview that you saw the preferences of a different director in DS2, which particularly manifested itself in terms of things like world design. It didn't have the interconnectedness, for example, that Miyazaki loves.

BB doesn't have much either and DaS3 actually has about as many interconnections between areas as DaS2 so I'm not entirely sure about that.

People acting like the DS2 team censored some panties, smh.

Nashandra's got smaller boobs than Gwynevere, this game is a disgrace. Fucking PC culture and SJWs ruining it for everyone!

 

[Unfriendly TimeTraveler]

You are, but it's pretty dumb because there's no warning and no way to avoid it. The only thing they give you is that you can just walk right back out of the fog wall, although you probably won't know you can do that because you can't anywhere else in the game.

I have to say, considering the stuff this game apparently went through during development, I'm impressed with what Tanimura managed to come up with with the dev team after Shibuya left the project.
Also, the fact that people, including me, were so disappointed with it really only tells you how good the original Dark Souls was.

I rather quite like that because it messes with what you know and sometimes will be exceptions that can be good or bad (be of chaos for example)
I myself don't know too much about the development cycle of the game at first but overall they did a good job with all the obstacles. One point I heard that half the game was done but got scraped because different directors or something.

 

[DorkLord54]

I rather quite like that because it messes with what you know and sometimes will be exceptions that can be good or bad (be of chaos for example)
I myself don't know too much about the development cycle of the game at first but overall they did a good job with all the obstacles. One point I heard that half the game was done but got scraped because different directors or something.

It wasn't just that. They learned around the same time that they just couldn't get the game to run on last-gen consoles due to their hardware, and had to completely gut their engine so that it could be playable. They scrapped as many assets as they could and placed them into places that they believed would be believable to the player while also creating new areas. This is why the elevator to Iron Keep is so bizarre: the windmill that is Earthen Peak was not originally where Iron Keep connected, it's just how they could place it with the short amount of time given.

 

[Get'sMad]

BB doesn't have much either and DaS3 actually has less interconnections between areas than DaS2 so I'm not entirely sure about that.

This is true...the main gripe with DaS2 world layout is that none of it makes sense geographically. BB and DaS3 both feel more like actual worlds despite the lack of initial path choices/overlapping of DaS, than Das2 does to me though.

 

[Slick Butter]

One point I heard that half the game was done but got scraped because different directors or something.

From one interview with Tanimura, I think he said that they stopped halfway through development to rethink pretty much the entire game, and ended up having to re-purpose existing assets to fit what they were changing, including entire areas.

 

[Hypron]

This is true...the main gripe with DaS2 world layout is that none of it makes sense geographically. BB and DaS3 both feel more like actual worlds despite the lack of initial path choices/overlapping of DaS, than Das2 does to me though.

Yeah that's true. Part of the reason why the world of DaS 2 doesn't make as much sense is what other posters above us are talking about: the devs had to put together tons of different areas to get something playable towards the end of development.

It is explained in the lore by temporal distortions apparently if you care about that. The distances you travel in game are shorter than those you can see on the map in Majula.

 

[Htown]

Like I said I'm up to Harvest Valley and I wanted to ask, I'm doing a Dex/fth build and was wondering what armor sets I should be after at this point. I've been wearing Heide armor for like 10-15 hours now lol, and I prefer medium armor with good agility.

I always go for the Alva set for medium armor. Stats are good, plus it looks fucking awesome.

It's also really easy to get, since it's sold from the armor dude in Majula.

 

[Already Torn]

For those that think Dark Souls 2 is so much worse when it comes to gang fights.... do you remember Undead Burgh is DS1? Walking up the staircase and having... what? 5-6 enemies on your shit? How bout we go a little further into that area... at no point are any less than 3 enemies aggro'd on you at any given time. The forest area is one giant trap when it comes to gang aggro and don't even get me started on Dukes Archive. How about the ghost house in New Londo Ruins or the multiple "surprise" moments in Tomb of the Giants?

It really isn't so much different in Dark Souls 2.

In Undead Burg those are all super weak enemies, not crazy samurai. The whole point of the forest area is that you have to defeat those enemies without triggering more, they give you tons of space to do so. Ghosts die in two hits. And what about the Dukes achieves?

And that part in the Tomb of the Giants is supposed to be a trap, where the ember is? It's not a whole level.

Everything about DS2 is worse.

 

[SoulUnison]

This is true...the main gripe with DaS2 world layout is that none of it makes sense geographically. BB and DaS3 both feel more like actual worlds despite the lack of initial path choices/overlapping of DaS, than Das2 does to me though.

Everybody always says that Dark Souls 2's world doesn't make any physical sense, but to me the only truly glaring instance was how you can see Majula, maybe about a half-mile away, from Heide's Tower, but the walkway you take to get there is a casual little jaunt of maybe a couple hundred feet, at best.

Even the Iron Keep, which seems to be everyone's go-to example, doesn't seem that odd to me if you just imagine Earth Peak to be part of the "ascent" and Iron Keep to be a fortress built in/on the crater of a (previously dormant) volcano, or something similar.
It'd be nice if you could see some hint of Iron Keep from Harvest Valley or Earthen Peak, but setting Iron Keep in the crater or "crown" of the volcano means it'd be almost completely hidden from view to anything at a lower elevation.

I suppose Huntsman's Copse feels a little strange, but it's more thematic than geographic. A quick stroll between Copse and Majula switches the sky back and forth between clear and sunny and dark and foreboding.

In Undead Burg those are all super weak enemies, not crazy samurai. The whole point of the forest area is that you have to defeat those enemies without triggering more, they give you tons of space to do so. Ghosts die in two hits. And what about the Dukes achieves?

And that part in the Tomb of the Giants is supposed to be a trap, where the ember is? It's not a whole level.

Everything about DS2 is worse.

Haha, posts like this are just so easy to completely disregard.

"Everything about DS2 is worse."

Wow, really? Literally everything? I guess it's some sort of sick joke on my part that I actually enjoyed 2 more than the first, and find it to be more content-complete.

When you make sweeping absolute statements like that you're basically throwing your own right to an opinion out the window, because the second somebody points out even the slightest way you might be incorrect your whole stance folds like a cheap card table. At that point you can try to play catch up on a case-by-case basis, but you've already doomed yourself to looking like you're eternally moving the goalposts and just generally throwing a tantrum.

 

[Hypron]

In Undead Burg those are all super weak enemies, not crazy samurai. The whole point of the forest area is that you have to defeat those enemies without triggering more, they give you tons of space to do so. Ghosts die in two hits. And what about the Dukes achieves?

And that part in the Tomb of the Giants is supposed to be a trap, where the ember is? It's not a whole level.

Everything about DS2 is worse.

There's always a way to avoid aggroing too many enemies at once in DaS2, just like there was in DaS1. It's not worse, you're just not putting any effort into solving the situations you're faced with.

 

[Snacks the sober sea lion]

There's always a way to avoid aggroing too many enemies at once in DaS2, just like there was in DaS1. It's not worse, you're just not putting any effort into solving the situations you're faced with.

Except the entire Lost Bastille/ tower areas. Where a stream of those guys comes out of a door no matter what you do, the first boss is the same enemy 3 times, the optional boss is the same enemy SIX times, getting the key requires you to just try over and over and over again because it's impossible not to aggro a pack of dogs (while going down a ladder, even) and there's a bonfire within a group's aggro range. What on earth happened with that area?

 

[Already Torn]

There's always a way to avoid aggroing too many enemies at once in DaS2, just like there was in DaS1. It's not worse, you're just not putting any effort into solving the situations you're faced with.

No no, it's still worse. Stronger enemies that are meant to be fought 1 on 1 and less space to fight them. Way worse if you can't do it as a knight.

 

[Slick Butter]

Everybody always says that Dark Souls 2's world doesn't make any physical sense, but to me the only truly glaring instance was how you can see Majula, maybe about a half-mile away, from Heide's Tower, but the walkway you take to get there is a casual little jaunt of maybe a couple hundred feet, at best.

Even the Iron Keep, which seems to be everyone's go-to example, doesn't seem that odd to me if you just imagine Earth Peak to be part of the "ascent" and Iron Keep to be a fortress built in/on the crater of a (previously dormant) volcano, or something similar.
It'd be nice if you could see some hint of Iron Keep from Harvest Valley or Earthen Peak, but setting Iron Keep in the crater or "crown" of the volcano means it'd be almost completely hidden from view to anything at a lower elevation.

I suppose Huntsman's Copse feels a little strange, but it's more thematic than geographic. A quick stroll between Copse and Majula switches the sky back and forth between clear and sunny and dark and foreboding.

I don't see a mountain right near that big windmill, neither!
The Copse is very similar to, say, Darkroot Garden, though. They change the tones on a per-area basis throughout each game. Nothing wrong with that, though sometimes they are jarring changes, like entering the Blighttown backdoor cave.

Also, the No-Man's Wharf, where you sail a boat on an ocean, which is under the ocean...

Similar to the cardboard cut-out of Heide's that you can see from Majula, There is one of the Forest of Fallen Giants, which also appears to be miles away. Also bugs me that you can just see Heide's with absolutely nothing connecting it to anything that would lead back to Majula.

Also, the Shaded Woods, Aldia's Keep, Drangleic Castle, and Doors of Pharros all intersect with each other. As in, parts of one somehow exist in the same place as parts of the other.

 

[Hypron]

Except the entire Lost Bastille/ tower areas. Where a stream of those guys comes out of a door no matter what you do, the first boss is the same enemy 3 times, the optional boss is the same enemy SIX times, getting the key requires you to just try over and over and over again because it's impossible not to aggro a pack of dogs (while going down a ladder, even) and there's a bonfire within a group's aggro range. What on earth happened with that area?

Since the guys come out of a door they already go through a nice convenient funnel for you, you can use that to your advantage (it's quite similar to the undeads on the way to the gargoyles). That, and it's easy to just down the stairs and take the ladder to get to the boss without fighting anyone.

The multiple bosses are not new to the series though (and you don't fight all the gargoyles at the same time if done properly, it's like saying the 4 kings is a fight against 4 enemies).

I agree with the dog area being a pain in the ass (haven't done it in a long, long time though so I'm not sure what it's like anymore).

That last bonfire was indeed really stupid (easy to deal with though, it's just 2 guys IIRC) but they fixed it in SotFS.

No no, it's still worse. Stronger enemies that are meant to be fought 1 on 1 and less space to fight them. Way worse if you can't do it as a knight.

Any specific example?

 

[Htown]

I don't see a mountain right near that big windmill, neither!

If I recall, there actually is one in the bonfire warp art.

Checked, yep.

Guess it got removed at some point, and they just never changed the art.

They also just left the name as "Earthen Peak" despite there not really being a big peak nearby.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

Damage taken/2 and damage output*2 for 2 minutes sounds completely OP, the game must be pretty easy with those. You should be able to finish most fights within 2 minutes with a damage output that massive.

It's OP and completely unnecessary for most fights. But, for the truly hard fights like Darklurker and the DLC bosses, it doesn't make them completely trivial, just more manageable really. That's why there's so few of the items in the whole game and they're so expensive. Overall, I think it's pretty balanced.

Also, while on my current replay, alternating between Majula and Heide's had me wondering if those were the first areas that they worked on, or if they were the last. Because it seriously looks like those two areas are the most ambitious compared to practically every other area in the game in terms of aesthetics. Even though Heide's reuses the same mosaic, it doesn't matter because of how great it looks on PC. It's also a pretty small map too, but it looks so good. Until the DLC, only the outside of the Aerie comes close to matching it.

I think No Man's Wharf, the Lost Bastille, the Iron Keep (+ Belfry Sol) and Shrine of Amana look really good, too.

Just skip the Frigid Outskirts.

B-b-but Ring of the Living... Best ring...

I've killed the king already, but it's just the Blue Smelter Demon and the Frigid Outskirts left. The Iron Passage is a pain but I just kept going back in and killing the enemies until they no longer respawned, I'm not a fan of the area though as it feels very funneled.

As someone who will defend Dark Souls 2 fiercely...

Fuck the Iron Passage and whoever designed it.

As opposed to what? I'm really curious what your argument is here. Enemies in Forest of Giants are too complex? At what point are the regular, minion type enemies more difficult to handle in Dark Souls 2 as opposed to Dark Souls 1?

Good question.

Last time I checked the import thread, someone started suggesting the bosses had to be done by the B-Team because there was no way Miyazaki would allow them to be so easy. I'd say the outlook looks pretty grim for the OT.

LOL, that's funny. It's like these people forgot how easy most bosses are in the whole series. Especially the non-optional bosses in, say, Bloodborne.

People acting like the DS2 team censored some panties, smh.

Nashandra's got smaller boobs than Gwynevere, this game is a disgrace. Fucking PC culture and SJWs ruining it for everyone!

Hahahahaha
I love you guys <3

In Undead Burg those are all super weak enemies, not crazy samurai. The whole point of the forest area is that you have to defeat those enemies without triggering more, they give you tons of space to do so. Ghosts die in two hits. And what about the Dukes achieves?

But... The "crazy samurai" died in two hits too and that's without using a big-ass greatsword or whatever, just a normal weapon like a mace or katana... Ghosts actually typically took more hits depending on my build, their hitboxes and movement were way worse, and the crystal hollows in Duke's Archives took way more than two hits too, I had to constantly fish for backstabs and parries 'cause they have crazy good defense and can totally swarm you.

And of course the ganksquads in Darkroot Garden, with all those plant-things ganking you if you want to pick up the Eastern set, for example.

(Wait, I'm doing it again... aggh.)

Except the entire Lost Bastille/ tower areas. Where a stream of those guys comes out of a door no matter what you do

Actually... for one thing, you can funnel them through the door so it's not like you need to fight six guys surrounding you. And for another thing, if you need to return there to fight the boss, you can skip them if you open the door-to-nowhere shortcut.

 

[Slick Butter]

If I recall, there actually is one in the bonfire warp art.

Checked, yep.

Guess it got removed at some point, and they just never changed the art.

They also just left the name as "Earthen Peak" despite there not really being a big peak nearby.

Huh. That's pretty cool. Never noticed. Too bad it's not actually there in the game for you to see from the Harvest Valley, but I think that's enough proof for me that there was supposed to be a mountain there. Earthen Peak was always a strange name for a windmill...

 

[RevenWolf]

No no, it's still worse. Stronger enemies that are meant to be fought 1 on 1 and less space to fight them. Way worse if you can't do it as a knight.

And which are these? Because the samurai die in two shots with basically every weapon, unless you flat out kill them instantly.

 

[Hypron]

(Wait, I'm doing it again... aggh.)

After every Dark Souls 2 thread: "Okay, I really should stop wasting my time making the same arguments over and over again. From now on, I shan't argue the merits of Dark Souls 2 anymore."

The very next day:

"goddamit neogaf, here we go again..."

 

[Morrigan Stark]

After every Dark Souls 2 thread: "Okay, I really should stop wasting my time making the same arguments over and over again. From now on, I shan't argue the merits of Dark Souls 2 anymore."

The very next day:

"goddamit neogaf, here we go again..."

Aye. I have been starting to use the ignore feature of a forum for the first time in my life. xD

 

[Sanctuary]

Every single one of those mofos get aggroed at once (plus that dancing channeller the first time around):

It's the biggest gank squad in the series.

And super easy to destroy since you can force them to run through a narrow hallway in almost single file. There's not really any comparing the gank squads in Dark Souls to Dark Souls 2. They're simply everywhere in the second game.
The conflicting reports of SotFS regarding even more of them is what has prevented me from bothering with it too. Some say there's less, while most say there's even more than before.

 

[ZangBa]

After every Dark Souls 2 thread: "Okay, I really should stop wasting my time making the same arguments over and over again. From now on, I shan't argue the merits of Dark Souls 2 anymore."

The very next day:

"goddamit neogaf, here we go again..."

Every time a LTTP thread is made, I check to see if it's basically a hate thread, which is pretty often. I don't usually post in them anymore, I mean what's the point? I disagree, but there is no convincing anyone that a lot of the issues are series wide or flat out exaggerated. In this case, the OP asked for some information and was positive to the game, yet here we are with the hate-wankfest anyway.

 

[RevenWolf]

And super easy to destroy since you can force them to run through a narrow hallway in almost single file. There's not really any comparing the gank squads in Dark Souls to Dark Souls 2. They're simply everywhere in the second game.
The conflicting reports of SotFS regarding even more of them is what has prevented me from bothering with it too. Some say there's less, while most say there's even more than before.

Except that every ambush with simian numbers in ds2 also funnels them really hard, and makes them fragile, and in cases where there is no funnel, significantly less aggressive.

 

[Teeth]

Actually... for one thing, you can funnel them through the door so it's not like you need to fight six guys surrounding you. And for another thing, if you need to return there to fight the boss, you can skip them if you open the door-to-nowhere shortcut.

It's funny, after years of "gank squad" criticisms of DS2 I finally went back and played DS1 again for the umpteenth time, making special note of the scenarios that pit multiple attackers at you at once and...well, it's the entire game.

-Undead Burg has 5 major encounters and they are all with 3+ enemies, all aggroing at the same time. Lower Burg is specifically setup to have you face no less than 3 enemies (with counter attacks!) and a dog at every encounter.
-Darkroot is generally 2+ tree ents at once, though generally it's 3 or more. Even the crystal golems come at you 2 at a time usually. The section where you fight the NPC player lookalikes is always 2 or 3 at a time, all with varied movesets. And at the bottom of the Basin, there's the part when they throw 7 or 8 of the stingray creatures at you.
-Anor Londo will throw two giants at you at once unless you fiddle with their aggro range.
-Painted world is generally 3+ bloated hollows, with ranged and melee attacks. They'll also throw 2 or 3 of the tough crows at you at once. Oh, and 2 or 3 wheelie skellingtons.
-Catacombs is always 2 or 3 skellingtons that also revive and/or shoot arrows at you. Plus wheelies.
- Tomb of Giants has entire rooms with 3 or 4 giant skeletons plus the room with 6 pinwheels (and baby skellingtons).
- Depths has rooms with 2 dogs plus hollows plus cleaver monsters. And rooms with 4 or 5 rats (possibly with a channeler to power them up) plus slimes.
-Blighttown is riddled with 3 ghoul encounters, 2+ bloated ghoul encounters, and fights against 2 or 3 firebreathing dogs at the bottom of ladders. Plus Toxin spitting wood men at a distance. At the bottom, there's the sections with 2 or 3 bloated ghouls plus constant fly nuisances. Through a poison bog.
- Duke's has usually 2 or 3 crystal skeletons with a channeler constantly firing bolts at you. At the bottom of the jail, there's the section where you fight 8 horrors at once. And 2 or 3 snake men.
- Sen's is pretty reserved. But it's more about traps.
- Sunken Londo is all ghosts all the time, with their ability to phase through floors and walls and their god-awful attack hit boxes. Not to mention the one room with the screamer that has, like, 5 ghosts attack at once.

So yeah, it's literally the entire game. That's Dark Souls. I don't agree with people who say that DS's combat breaks down when fighting multiple enemies; it doesn't, it just changes the balance of what you need to pay attention to. Instead of just reading attacks and dodging and backstabbing, you have to control space, be aware of your surroundings and use the collision boxes of enemies to keep them in line so they don't sequence break your guard (or stun lock you to death). It negates (or at least lessens) the ability for the ALMIGHTY FAST ROLL to defeat any and all encounters without thought. With multiple enemies, you have to actually think and control space.

The fighting mechanics don't break down with multiple opponents, they shine by breaking down the monotony of just dodge roll and attack.

 

[Already Torn]

And which are these? Because the samurai die in two shots with basically every weapon, unless you flat out kill them instantly.

Dude, that's not true at all.

 

[ZangBa]

It's funny, after years of "gank squad" criticisms of DS2 I finally went back and played DS1 again for the umpteenth time, making special note of the scenarios that pit multiple attackers at you at once and...well, it's the entire game.

-Undead Burg has 5 major encounters and they are all with 3+ enemies, all aggroing at the same time. Lower Burg is specifically setup to have you face no less than 3 enemies (with counter attacks!) and a dog at every encounter.
-Darkroot is generally 2+ tree ents at once, though generally it's 3 or more. Even the crystal golems come at you 2 at a time usually. The section where you fight the NPC player lookalikes is always 2 or 3 at a time, all with varied movesets. And at the bottom of the Basin, there's the part when they throw 7 or 8 of the stingray creatures at you.
-Anor Londo will throw two giants at you at once unless you fiddle with their aggro range.
-Painted world is generally 3+ bloated hollows, with ranged and melee attacks. They'll also throw 2 or 3 of the tough crows at you at once. Oh, and 2 or 3 wheelie skellingtons.
-Catacombs is always 2 or 3 skellingtons that also revive and/or shoot arrows at you. Plus wheelies.
- Tomb of Giants has entire rooms with 3 or 4 giant skeletons plus the room with 6 pinwheels (and baby skellingtons).
- Depths has rooms with 2 dogs plus hollows plus cleaver monsters. And rooms with 4 or 5 rats (possibly with a channeler to power them up) plus slimes.
-Blighttown is riddled with 3 ghoul encounters, 2+ bloated ghoul encounters, and fights against 2 or 3 firebreathing dogs at the bottom of ladders. Plus Toxin spitting wood men at a distance. At the bottom, there's the sections with 2 or 3 bloated ghouls plus constant fly nuisances. Through a poison bog.
- Duke's has usually 2 or 3 crystal skeletons with a channeler constantly firing bolts at you. At the bottom of the jail, there's the section where you fight 8 horrors at once. And 2 or 3 snake men.
- Sen's is pretty reserved. But it's more about traps.
- Sunken Londo is all ghosts all the time, with their ability to phase through floors and walls and their god-awful attack hit boxes. Not to mention the one room with the screamer that has, like, 5 ghosts attack at once.

So yeah, it's literally the entire game. That's Dark Souls. I don't agree with people who say that DS's combat breaks down when fighting multiple enemies; it doesn't, it just changes the balance of what you need to pay attention to. Instead of just reading attacks and dodging and backstabbing, you have to control space, be aware of your surroundings and use the collision boxes of enemies to keep them in line so they don't sequence break your guard (or stun lock you to death). It negates (or at least lessens) the ability for the ALMIGHTY FAST ROLL to defeat any and all encounters without thought. With multiple enemies, you have to actually think and control space.

The fighting mechanics don't break down with multiple opponents, they shine by breaking down the monotony of just dodge roll and attack.

That is 100% true. Multiple enemies doesn't break the combat, just a complacent, dodge roll happy player. This is why I love being able to roll and aim attacks in any direction while locked on DS2, more control over my character and enemies.

Dude, that's not true at all.

I've played through the game somewhere in the double digits. I'd say this is accurate. They generally die in 2-3 hits.

 

[Sanctuary]

Except that every ambush with simian numbers in ds2 also funnels them really hard, and makes them fragile, and in cases where there is no funnel, significantly less aggressive.

1. Most of the trash enemies hit harder in Dark Souls 2 (or it could just be the difference with how armor works).
2. They are much faster in general.

I think that might be it for me. Everything from the backstabs to the attacks to the rolls feel unresponsive compared to DeS/DaS/BB.

I can't really tell if it's less responsive, but it sure as hell felt really floaty and lot lighter compared to Dark Souls. Not sure if it's just a feeback issue either, but it's definitely different from every other game in the series, including Bloodborne.

Like I said I'm up to Harvest Valley and I wanted to ask, I'm doing a Dex/fth build and was wondering what armor sets I should be after at this point. I've been wearing Heide armor for like 10-15 hours now lol, and I prefer medium armor with good agility.

I am actually doing a DEX/FTH build and my save is at Harvest Valley.

So yeah, it's literally the entire game..

I didn't realize the game only had that many encounters. Also, there's a huge difference between having a lot of 2-3 enemy enounters that happen in a relatively large open space, compared to 3-5 in a very small area.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

It's funny, after years of "gank squad" criticisms of DS2 I finally went back and played DS1 again for the umpteenth time, making special note of the scenarios that pit multiple attackers at you at once and...well, it's the entire game.

-Undead Burg has 5 major encounters and they are all with 3+ enemies, all aggroing at the same time. Lower Burg is specifically setup to have you face no less than 3 enemies (with counter attacks!) and a dog at every encounter.
-Darkroot is generally 2+ tree ents at once, though generally it's 3 or more. Even the crystal golems come at you 2 at a time usually. The section where you fight the NPC player lookalikes is always 2 or 3 at a time, all with varied movesets. And at the bottom of the Basin, there's the part when they throw 7 or 8 of the stingray creatures at you.
-Anor Londo will throw two giants at you at once unless you fiddle with their aggro range.
-Painted world is generally 3+ bloated hollows, with ranged and melee attacks. They'll also throw 2 or 3 of the tough crows at you at once. Oh, and 2 or 3 wheelie skellingtons.
-Catacombs is always 2 or 3 skellingtons that also revive and/or shoot arrows at you. Plus wheelies.
- Tomb of Giants has entire rooms with 3 or 4 giant skeletons plus the room with 6 pinwheels (and baby skellingtons).
- Depths has rooms with 2 dogs plus hollows plus cleaver monsters. And rooms with 4 or 5 rats (possibly with a channeler to power them up) plus slimes.
-Blighttown is riddled with 3 ghoul encounters, 2+ bloated ghoul encounters, and fights against 2 or 3 firebreathing dogs at the bottom of ladders. Plus Toxin spitting wood men at a distance. At the bottom, there's the sections with 2 or 3 bloated ghouls plus constant fly nuisances. Through a poison bog.
- Duke's has usually 2 or 3 crystal skeletons with a channeler constantly firing bolts at you. At the bottom of the jail, there's the section where you fight 8 horrors at once. And 2 or 3 snake men.
- Sen's is pretty reserved. But it's more about traps.
- Sunken Londo is all ghosts all the time, with their ability to phase through floors and walls and their god-awful attack hit boxes. Not to mention the one room with the screamer that has, like, 5 ghosts attack at once.

So yeah, it's literally the entire game. That's Dark Souls. I don't agree with people who say that DS's combat breaks down when fighting multiple enemies; it doesn't, it just changes the balance of what you need to pay attention to. Instead of just reading attacks and dodging and backstabbing, you have to control space, be aware of your surroundings and use the collision boxes of enemies to keep them in line so they don't sequence break your guard (or stun lock you to death). It negates (or at least lessens) the ability for the ALMIGHTY FAST ROLL to defeat any and all encounters without thought. With multiple enemies, you have to actually think and control space.

The fighting mechanics don't break down with multiple opponents, they shine by breaking down the monotony of just dodge roll and attack.

Great post! I'm bookmarking this for future linking/quoting use, if you don't mind. I'll nitpick and say that you can generally fight forest NPCs one at the time but you need to very carefully draw out their aggro and never move around too much (go in too deep) when fighting one 'cause you'll certainly draw the aggro of the other.

I'll add:
- Multiple Capra Demons before the bonfire in Demon Ruins. Can be lured one by one somewhat, but usually it's two by two.
- The clams before Seath. Again, can be carefully lured with a bow, but typically you'll aggro at least two, if not three, at the same time. And these assholes have poise, tons of HP/defense, weird hitboxes, and grab attacks, the whole trifecta of Souls annoyance!
- Darkroot Garden before the Butterfly, that ambush with at least two tree-things and one stone guardian (when picking up the elite knight set IIRC).
- Royal Woods frequently has several pitchfork/scissor wielders, and often mixed with those golem guardians (who have tons of HP and defense too and AOE attacks).
- Oolacile Township has several encounters with multiple Bloated Heads, often with a sorcerer casting strong dark magic from afar while you try to fight the melee attackers.
- The humanity-stealing ghosts in the Chasm of the Abyss are always in groups.

I'm sure I'm forgetting some. But of course these don't count, because reasons!

 

[Teeth]

I didn't realize the game only had that many encounters.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/literally


It's "literally" the entire game in that: every area has multi enemy encounters. Every area. Not every encounter, but every area. The entire game.

Great post! I'm bookmarking this for future linking/quoting use, if you don't mind. I'll nitpick and say that you can generally fight forest NPCs one at the time but you need to very carefully draw out their aggro and never move around too much (go in too deep) when fighting one 'cause you'll certainly draw the aggro of the other.

I'll add:
- Multiple Capra Demons before the bonfire in Demon Ruins. Can be lured one by one somewhat, but usually it's two by two.
- The clams before Seath. Again, can be carefully lured with a bow, but typically you'll aggro at least two, if not three, at the same time. And these assholes have poise, tons of HP/defense, weird hitboxes, and grab attacks, the whole trifecta of Souls annoyance!
- Darkroot Garden before the Butterfly, that ambush with at least two tree-things and one stone guardian.
- Royal Woods frequently has several pitchfork/scissor wielders, and often mixed with those golem guardians (who have tons of HP and defense too and AOE attacks).
- Oolacile Township has several encounters with multiple Bloated Heads, often with a sorcerer casting strong dark magic from afar while you try to fight the melee attackers.
- The humanity-stealing ghosts in the Chasm of the Abyss are always in groups.

I'm sure I'm forgetting some. But of course these don't count, because reasons!

I actually didn't include a lot of those because I was looking for the sequences that you couldn't trigger enemies one at a time (I wasn't aware that you could do the phantoms one by one. I thought you at least had to do two, like Pharris and the thief).

People generally whined about DS2 because there was no way to aggro enemies one at a time; the aggro triggers were often group based rather than individually based. If you arrowed one skelly, 3 would start walking towards you. But it turned out that a lot of the encounters in DS1 are either wide/multi aggro triggers or they cordon off rooms and put the trigger at the doorway to get a bunch to come at once.

As such, I didn't include the clams because you can tiptoe aggro one at a time, ditto for the Capras (that's how I deal with those things).

And I didn't include the DLC because, well, damn if the DLC didn't remind me the MOST of DS2. I wouldn't be surprised if the same people who worked on the DLC worked on DS2. The enemies attack in large groups, they have very high poise and attacks that don't have big windup (the bloated heads can swipe with an incredibly fast attack). They also have the DS2 thing where they will break poise while standing there but will poise right through an attack if they have started their windup.

Additionally, there are a large number of bonfires, lots of bosses in a smaller area and the areas themselves are mostly linear gauntlets with some side paths that link back to the main one (they don't interconnect as much, aside from the shortcuts back ie- there aren't multiple pathways forward). The whole thing just reminded me a lot of DS2 on my last playthrough.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

It's "literally" the entire game in that: every area has multi enemy encounters. Every area. Not every encounter, but every area. The entire game.

Every area? What about Ash Lake? Pffft you know nothing! Have you even played the game?

Spoiler

 

[ZangBa]

Well, the hydra has like 7 heads so I'll allow it, even though he regularly kills himself when I go through there somehow, but that's just good game design. Also, if the tree counts, I'm pretty sure curse frogs ambush you.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

Well, the hydra has like 7 heads so I'll allow it, even though he regularly kills himself when I go through there somehow, but that's just good game design. Also, if the tree counts, I'm pretty sure curse frogs ambush you.

Oh yeah I forgot about that tree, lol.

What is your avatar from, btw?

Also, you face multiple mushroom people at once.

Isn't that in the Great Hollow? I recall only one big mushroom in that small tree in Ash Lake, along with some basilisks. Not that it matters, haha.

 

[Teeth]

Well, the hydra has like 7 heads so I'll allow it, even though he regularly kills himself when I go through there somehow, but that's just good game design. Also, if the tree counts, I'm pretty sure curse frogs ambush you.

Also, you face multiple mushroom people at once. The little ones are there to box you in while the big ones murder you.

Oh yeah I forgot about that tree, lol.
Isn't that in the Great Hollow? I recall only one big mushroom in that small tree in Ash Lake, along with some basilisks. Not that it matters, haha.

I'll check right now...

Yep, you were right - multiple curse froggies but only one mushroom man.

 

[Nerokis]

Going off a similar note, I am hearing the phrase "the real Dark Souls 2" or "the sequel we should have gotten" about Dark Souls 3. And I'm hearing it a looot. And while I get where it's coming from, I find it equally dismissive and inflammatory towards the Dark Souls 2 team.

Yeah, that talk is unnecessary. It's good to hear that people seem to be enjoying DS3, though.

I'm not rushing through it though, I've pretty much done everything and explored all the DLC apart from the Frigid Outskirts. I've been playing for over 100 hours currently, this is my original play through.

My bad, then. It's a trend I've been noticing, and I got the wrong impression. Just in case you're tempted to tie up that loose end, the Scholar version of the Frigid Outskirts is apparently much easier than the original. I went in knowing it had a reputation for being frustratingly difficult, and ended up having a good time.

BB doesn't have much either and DaS3 actually has about as many interconnections between areas as DaS2 so I'm not entirely sure about that.

Miyazaki's preference for interconnectedness is pretty well documented. I guess DS1 will be known for emphasizing it to a unique degree, but DS2 was almost on the opposite end of the spectrum. BB had that interconnectedness scattered throughout the levels on a smaller scale, with the rare big loop; DS2's level design was much more linear overall.

Interesting to hear about DS3, though. I'm guessing you're referring to levels looping into each other, specifically? I grew to love how DS2 compartmentalized the levels, while still emphasizing openness in world design. Made for an interesting mix. I wouldn't mind at all for DS3 to take that, and throw in some of BB's or DS1's more maze-like level design.

 

[ZangBa]

Demon's Souls is no saint here either, I mean do you all even remember? 5-1 is just ambush after ambush, several tiny rats ready to instantly plague you, guys hiding inside hay ready to run behind you on a bridge while 2 more are in front of you.

World 4 has infinite respawning invisible eye laser enemies in hordes that only go away if you kill their master, and then there are the roll happy skeletons with their best friends the sting ray assholes, which by the way the lock on does no favors for you here.

World 3 is mostly ok here, but there are also ambushes from prisoners, too, like 8 at a time.

World 2 has ambushes evetywhere. Tunnels filled with 10+ enemies, dogs and fat officials, flame lizard ambushes and so on.

World 1 same shit, I mean even the first boss is a horde of enemies attached to a boss.

Point is the whole series is like this, DS2 gets flak because it's easy to blame it on B-Team, or because they did a bait and switch with the lighting or whatever other nonsense excuse that makes it convienent to exclude the rest of the series.

 

[Ferr986]

Haha, guy didn't even read the OP and just brought his axe to grind.

Welcome to every DS2 thread.

Even when it's not a LTTP they have to pop to make sure everyone knows how much they hate DS2.

 

[ZangBa]

Oh yeah I forgot about that tree, lol.

What is your avatar from, btw?


Isn't that in the Great Hollow? I recall only one big mushroom in that small tree in Ash Lake, along with some basilisks. Not that it matters, haha.

It's Koei's depiction of the character/person Zang Ba from some kind of card game that I don't know much of anything about, sorry. :/