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LTTP: Donkey Kong Country 1-3 and Donkey Kong Country Returns

I think the only DKC3 GBA track that possibly beats its SNES counterpart is the Waterfall theme. And even then... it's close. The SNES version is still great.

I love Dave Wise, but I think Eveline's take was mostly better.

Also gotta agree with Altazor that the snow, tree, and mountain themes were way too jaunty. They just didn't fit at all.

I'll raise that aside from the already mentioned waterfall theme the GBA version has better Lakeside, Cave, Factory and Bonus room themes.
Oh and the world map but I'm pretty sure i'm alone on this one.
Really I find them pretty equal, my favourite tracks come from the GBA version but the SNES is overall better.
 

KevinCow

Banned
My only problem with DKCR's soundtrack is that they rely a little too much on DKC's music. I'd have liked a little more original stuff.

Of course it probably makes me a total hypocrite that I hope they take the same direction with DKC2's music for DKCR2.
 
Tad bias against Returns' lava theme since Hot Head Bop is one of my favorite all time themes, but yes that, Tidal Terror (though the actual melody for that isn't too memorable) and the Tiki Tak theme had a strong 'metroid mixed with DKC' feel to them. I just wish I could say the same for the rest of the original music and even remixes.

Love the sound of Banjo-Kazooie but if it didn't work the first time with DK64, it wasn't going to work a second time by a completely different sound team.
 

branny

Member
^I've played every game except for the GBA ones and only truly love DKC2. It's one of my favorite platformers ever.

The other ones aren't bad or anything; they're just not as spectacular. The way DKC2 usually handles its bonus content--cohesively, meaningfully--puts the filler found in many modern platformers to shame. I generally abhor that stuff, but I don't mind it one bit in DKC2. That's the biggest sign that it's doing something right.

The game also oozes atmosphere, has neat level design and incredible music, isn't horrendously slow, and is basically as fun as the best 2D Marios (SMB3, SMW) to interact with. I couldn't ask for much else.

Returns is okay but the motion rolling and weird stuff like blowing on dandelions just aren't my cup of tea.
 

jwhit28

Member
I haven't played 1-3 in a few years but I wonder why they changed the way rolling combos and bouncing high off enemies worked in Returns.

I hate seeing 3 enemies in a row and finishing with my roll before the last one and it took me a good while to get the timing for high bounces down.
 

ghibli99

Member
I guess the music doesn't really bother me in DKC3 GBA like it does some folks... I do suppose it really depends on whether or not you liked DKC3 SNES's soundtrack to begin with. The GBA OST is more whimsical and melodic, which is nice, IMO. It makes me smile, in any case. :)

I haven't played 1-3 in a few years but I wonder why they changed the way rolling combos and bouncing high off enemies worked in Returns.
Yeah, it's an interesting design choice, but the more I play it, the more I like it. I also like the controls of DK quite a bit in DKCR. He has an incredible sense of mass/weight while still being really nimble. As I was playing through that first Key Temple, I kept thinking to myself, "DK is doing *exactly* what I want him to do, when I want him to do it," with the exception of me not having 100% grasp of the jump button re-press for the high bounces at that point. But everything else just feels so spot-on. It's obvious Retro took great care in crafting this game's control response.
 

ghibli99

Member
I just played my first rocket barrel level (2-3: Peaceful Pier). I died 3 or 4 times before figuring out the controls. :p Pressing up and down on the analog stick might've been the more intuitive (and responsive) choice.
 

jb1234

Member
I'm up to the sixth world in DKCR. I had a hell of a time with the first world temple but after that, the rest of the temples haven't been overly aggravating. The minecart levels can bite me as can moles in general.
 

PokéKong

Member
Can't believe I somehow missed it the first time, but I just noticed the Returns version of Aquatic Ambiance plays in the level where you ride the whale. I still say the game relied too heavily on old music, but I'll definitely give them this one for a really nice creative use of an old song in a way that has impact.

Still makes me miss water stages tho...
 

jb1234

Member
Can't believe I somehow missed it the first time, but I just noticed the Returns version of Aquatic Ambiance plays in the level where you ride the whale. I still say the game relied too heavily on old music, but I'll definitely give them this one for a really nice creative use of an old song in a way that has impact.

Yeah, that was nice. In a way, I'm glad they reuse the first game's music so much because the new stuff is completely unmemorable.

(Would have been better if they'd brought back the composers from DKC2...)
 

@MUWANdo

Banned
I haven't played 1-3 in a few years but I wonder why they changed the way rolling combos and bouncing high off enemies worked in Returns.

I hate seeing 3 enemies in a row and finishing with my roll before the last one and it took me a good while to get the timing for high bounces down.

It's funny you should mention this--it's the first thing I noticed when playing DKCR for the first time, even though I haven't played the originals in 10+ years (and didn't particularly enjoy them). Funny how those little things stick with you, even after all this time...
 

hachi

Banned
Did most of you play through this game single player, or co-op?

DKCR (like NSMBWii before it) is one of those games I forced myself to save for co-op sessions, and I'm glad that I did so. I've played through the entire game twice now, with 2 different friends, across many sessions. For me, that brings back the feeling of the original trilogy, as I remember first playing through DKC in a weekend with a pal when it came out.

In co-op I've always been the more experienced player, so naturally I'm Donkey Kong, and it's convenient that you can throw Diddy on your back if there's a particularly challenging section ahead. I'm all in favor of the asymmetrical roles like that.

In any case, one thing I've not seen discussed in this thread (or the other recent threads on the game) is its reworking of the cooperative experience compared to the originals. I found that being able to play simultaneously without the handoffs is a tremendous improvement that works well for the franchise.
 

drspeedy

Member
I just played my first rocket barrel level (2-3: Peaceful Pier). I died 3 or 4 times before figuring out the controls. :p Pressing up and down on the analog stick might've been the more intuitive (and responsive) choice.

better get good at it...

google 8-2, "Hot Rocket"
 

ghibli99

Member
After playing more last night, yeah, having Diddy definitely requires you to have much more precise timing with the high bounces. For levels that heavily rely on the high bounce, it's almost better to just get rid of him and go through with just Kong so that the hover move doesn't screw you up... although hovering can be a life-saver, too, in many cases.
 
Of course it probably makes me a total hypocrite that I hope they take the same direction with DKC2's music for DKCR2.

I wish people wouldn't even joke about stuff like that. It only encourages Nintendo to be even more "retro revival", when what they really needed to do was make something that continued in the spirit of the DKC series without overplaying the nostalgia card. A real "Donkey Kong Country 4", not a "Donkey Kong Country Returns Because We Know How You All Love Remembering How Cool We Were In 1994".

Putting Stickerbrush Symphony in DKCR2 would be great. Actually hiring David Wise to compose an all-new soundtrack would be ten times better. If Retro Studios releases another DKCR I'm not going to settle for Kenji Yamamoto's half-hearted aping of classic DKC music.
 

PokéKong

Member
I wish people wouldn't even joke about stuff like that. It only encourages Nintendo to be even more "retro revival", when what they really needed to do was make something that continued in the spirit of the DKC series without overplaying the nostalgia card. A real "Donkey Kong Country 4", not a "Donkey Kong Country Returns Because We Know How You All Love Remembering How Cool We Were In 1994".

Putting Stickerbrush Symphony in DKCR2 would be great. Actually hiring David Wise to compose an all-new soundtrack would be ten times better. If Retro Studios releases another DKCR I'm not going to settle for Kenji Yamamoto's half-hearted aping of classic DKC music.

Exactly, each DKC game invented its own unique atmosphere and tone with its own set of music, only borrowing from the previous titles on a few special cases while rearranging old tunes into something special and new, like turning the final boss theme of 1 into the intro stage theme of 2. So it's not like a DKC at all to act like Mario and just treat that first level theme as the reoccurring theme that keeps popping up.
 

jett

D-Member
It would be too good if David Wise scored a hypothetical sequel. The music in DKCR was easily the most(or only) disappointing aspect of the game. Poorly sounding covers and lame original music. No more of that japanese audio team, please.

Ice Cave Chant is my favorite piece of music from the original, I was completely blown away by it when I played DKC1. Man the music in that game is so fantastic, you can't say a single bad thing about it.
 
On the point of reoccurring themes I liked how there were jungle themed stages in all 3 SNES games but each is a different style and placed at different points in the game.
DKC: Obviously the opening stages, not so dense and rather bright, leaping across tree tops and big cliff like areas.
DKC2: All stages of this theme are tucked away in the lost world, tribal jungles with music to match, lots of wooden stakes, far more oppressive feel.
DKC3: Dense and darker jungle mostly held back towards the end of the game. Like being in a more overgrown area of the heart of a jungle, perhaps somewhat rainforest like.

And since best original DKC stage themes are being thrown down, Life in the Mines for me.
I'd say the most underrated theme was probably Cave Dweller Concert because I always forget how good it is when it gets going, it tends to take too long to reach that point with bonus rooms and the stage itself finishing. One of the few tracks that didn't get remixed for DKCR as well.
 

jett

D-Member
On the point of reoccurring themes I liked how there were jungle themed stages in all 3 SNES games but each is a different style and placed at different points in the game.
DKC: Obviously the opening stages, not so dense and rather bright, leaping across tree tops and big cliff like areas.
DKC2: All stages of this theme are tucked away in the lost world, tribal jungles with music to match, lots of wooden stakes, far more oppressive feel.
DKC3: Dense and darker jungle mostly held back towards the end of the game. Like being in a more overgrown area of the heart of a jungle, perhaps somewhat rainforest like.

And since best original DKC stage themes are being thrown down, Life in the Mines for me.
I'd say the most underrated theme was probably Cave Dweller Concert because I always forget how good it is when it gets going, it tends to take too long to reach that point with bonus rooms and the stage itself finishing. One of the few tracks that didn't get remixed for DKCR as well.

God yes Life in the Mines is also incredible, when the drums kick in I get chills every time.
 

ghibli99

Member
Regarding DKCR's music, I would also like to get something completely fresh next time, but I can easily forgive them for making the decision to use a lot of the classic tunes for this game. It'd been 14 years since DKC3 at the time of DKCR's release, so I'm OK with them playing the nostalgia card, especially when the actual game content is so strong.

I'm at the boss now for World 2, and some of these stages have been really cool! And I'd be lying if I said I didn't smile when I heard Aquatic Ambiance kick in during that whale stage. :)
 

JoeInky

Member
This topic made me feel like going back and continuing my bid for full completion.

I only have to 3 more levels to do in mirror mode now, tiki tong terror, 5 monkey trial and the golden temple.

I got the mole train and perilous passage done today, they're both levels that made me give up on mirror mode a while back, but I seemed to get through them (relatively) easy today. They're both really hard though - especially the mole train because the hard part is the last bit and if you die you have to go through the whole thing again.

It's because I can never figure out the pattern of where that mole guy and his pickaxe of instant death is going to pop up from.
 
This topic made me feel like going back and continuing my bid for full completion.

I only have to 3 more levels to do in mirror mode now, tiki tong terror, 5 monkey trial and the golden temple.

I got the mole train and perilous passage done today, they're both levels that made me give up on mirror mode a while back, but I seemed to get through them (relatively) easy today. They're both really hard though - especially the mole train because the hard part is the last bit and if you die you have to go through the whole thing again.

It's because I can never figure out the pattern of where that mole guy and his pickaxe of instant death is going to pop up from.

Isn't the deal with the mole train boss that he never pops up on the first cart that he visibly shakes in? I did a fair bit of mirror mode but figured it's just too much anguish when you get to stuff like Jagged Jewels, i'm not even sure where the hitboxes begin or end for those spinning jewels and I have no plans to find out.
 

JoeInky

Member
Isn't the deal with the mole train boss that he never pops up on the first cart that he visibly shakes in? I did a fair bit of mirror mode but figured it's just too much anguish when you get to stuff like Jagged Jewels, i'm not even sure where the hitboxes begin or end for those spinning jewels and I have no plans to find out.

When I first started doing mirror mode, jagged jewels was a 120-life "cakewalk" when compared to perilous passage, but I just did it now in like, 10 lives, it feels easier when you take a break from them.

I'm doing five monkey trial now, for instance, and I beat 4 of the trials on my first go - that didn't happen last time.

But yeah, jagged jewels probably is one of the hardest, it's so damn long.

Also, this is my favourite level in the game:
Treacherous_Track_5.png


It's so damn good.
 
Those electric flies in perilous passage were the death of me and that was just on normal mode, i'm assuming they were the main issue for perilous passage.
That world 7 Temple stage is a cool throwback to the chimp cavern stages of DKC, inspired by tanked up trouble I think.
The 5 monkey trials was one of my least favourite stages in the game, I just didn't like it at all.

One more question, Colonel Pluck and his chicken walker, surely that must be a pain in the arse because I swear he has no consistent pattern and can just power walk into you at any time, usually when i'm preparing to run under his next step.
 
Considering my insane love for platformers (and the DKC series) I'm ashamed that I still haven't picked up DKC:R. I guess I just find it hard to spend £30+ on something that is nearly 2 years old in a time where games often drop under £20 in 2 months. I need to stop being such a cheap arse.....

Finally got this for under £20 today off Ebay, can't wait for it to arrive in the post :D
 

JoeInky

Member
Those electric flies in perilous passage were the death of me and that was just on normal mode, i'm assuming they were the main issue for perilous passage.
That world 7 Temple stage is a cool throwback to the chimp cavern stages of DKC, inspired by tanked up trouble I think.
The 5 monkey trials was one of my least favourite stages in the game, I just didn't like it at all.

One more question, Colonel Pluck and his chicken walker, surely that must be a pain in the arse because I swear he has no consistent pattern and can just power walk into you at any time, usually when i'm preparing to run under his next step.

Yeah those electric flies were the main issue in perilous passage, I'm ashamed to admit I completed that level on normal using the invincibility item, though I've beat it in mirror mode now so that cancels it out I guess.

5 Monkey Trials is just the most boring design in the whole game really, especially disappointing when it's the temple level in the last world - I was expecting some sort of suicide-inducing minecart level.

EDIT: You know what 5 monkey trials feels like? It feels like the original minigames were going to have the golden temple visuals, but then they decided to ditch them in favour of the minigames we got now and just lumped a few of the old designs together in one stage.

Pluck gave me a lot of trouble too, I don't think I actually figured out the pattern in the end, I beat it on my first run so I can't remember if I figured it out or if it was just
p
luck.
 
On the point of reoccurring themes I liked how there were jungle themed stages in all 3 SNES games but each is a different style and placed at different points in the game.
DKC: Obviously the opening stages, not so dense and rather bright, leaping across tree tops and big cliff like areas.
DKC2: All stages of this theme are tucked away in the lost world, tribal jungles with music to match, lots of wooden stakes, far more oppressive feel.
DKC3: Dense and darker jungle mostly held back towards the end of the game. Like being in a more overgrown area of the heart of a jungle, perhaps somewhat rainforest like.

And since best original DKC stage themes are being thrown down, Life in the Mines for me.
I'd say the most underrated theme was probably Cave Dweller Concert because I always forget how good it is when it gets going, it tends to take too long to reach that point with bonus rooms and the stage itself finishing. One of the few tracks that didn't get remixed for DKCR as well.

The only thing that beats Life in the Mines is Life in the Mines.
 

jb1234

Member
What's Mirror Mode, out of curiosity?

Just made to World 8. Colonel Pluck can BITE ME. I also had a hell of a time with the World 6 temple (with the rising lava). Haven't unlocked the World 7 one yet but I fear it.
 

KevinCow

Banned
What's Mirror Mode, out of curiosity?

After you get all the puzzle pieces, beat all the K levels, and finish the true final level, you unlock Mirror Mode.

This mode flips every level horizontally, doesn't let you use Diddy, and you only have one heart. So it's basically hard mode.
 

JoeInky

Member
After you get all the puzzle pieces, beat all the K levels, and finish the true final level, you unlock Mirror Mode.

This mode flips every level horizontally, doesn't let you use Diddy, and you only have one heart. So it's basically hard mode.

Don't forget no checkpoints and no items allowed!

Well, I just did it, 200% completion, that final level gave me a hard time, as did the final boss.

Also, I completely forgot that DK
punches the fucking moon
at the end, that was great.
 

Exeunt

Member
I just finished Returns last night with "100%" (i.e. completed all the levels). I feel like in the end this series and I aren't the best match thanks to how my completionist tendencies interact with the high difficulty of many later levels. I actually thought I was going to get a game over on one of the levels in the last world even though I went in with over 50 lives, and some of the -K levels felt almost impossible. I realized afterwards that I probably could've bought a Banana Potion from Cranky Kong to help with certain spots but that might've cheapened my sense of accomplishment anyway. I don't really want to go back for all the puzzle pieces that I missed, especially in those harder levels but I feel good now that I've beaten the main quest and "bonus" levels. Mirror mode is definitely out of the question.

The one complaint I do have about the difficulty—because I assume difficulty a staple of the series and the game itself is quite polished—is when you encounter sequences that are based heavily upon trial-and-error. I'm not the best player in the world and my reflexes aren't top-notch, but I feel like you realistically can't anticipate certain hazards before they're already in your face. This is particularly apparent in mine cart and rocket barrel levels (probably part of why I don't like them) but it's also notable in the -K levels which don't give any checkpoints. Now, I recognize that there are elements of memorization and experimentation in most games and it can also be a valid type of play. But when I have to perfect the first portion of a level then reach a new obstacle I need to spend a couple times dying on, I feel discouraged because I have to repeat the first stretch over and over again just to figure out how to pass the later part. The first section does get easier after practice (as it should) but it still requires precision—one small mistake (which someone at my skill level is highly prone to making) and I can't even make it to the part I'm really having trouble with or else arrive without enough HP to confront the next threat. The "Blast & Bounce" level is basically the non-rocket barrel or mine cart embodiment of my complaint but it would be considered a "bonus" level so I suppose it's natural that such sequences would rely most on mastery and repetition. But that's not really the kind of challenge I enjoy.

I also wasn't a fan of how final boss level
made you go through the rocket barrel sequence before reaching the boss itself and then fight the final boss without Diddy if you don't defeat him the first time. I feel like if they wanted to have a final rocket barrel sequence it should've been done like the earlier "surprise" rocket level and let the boss level be a traditional boss level. It wasn't a terribly hard boss to figure out, but the Diddy barrel felt ultimately pointless.
And to reference a (non-Donkey Kong) Game Boy Color title, the final boss felt a lot like the one from
Wario Land 3
which was a little odd. The ending sequence was wacky and quite enjoyable to watch.

But anyway, I definitely can't knock the game and say it's bad just because I'm not the best at it. Up until about the first levels of World 8, the game was quite enjoyable and I do feel like I accomplished something at least by persevering through the parts I found really difficult. I doubt I'll look into any other games in the series after this but at least I got to experience a solid entry.
 

jb1234

Member
This mode flips every level horizontally, doesn't let you use Diddy, and you only have one heart. So it's basically hard mode.

Oh god. :|

(I've never actually used items so far so at least I have that crutch removed but it still sounds like utter hell...)
 

JoeInky

Member
The "Blast & Bounce" level is basically the non-rocket barrel or mine cart embodiment of my complaint
.

I think it's quite interesting that you feel blast and bounce to be one of those types of trial and error levels, because in my opinion it's quite the opposite unless you're just being plain careless.
 
I think DKCR landed on the wrong side of that fine line between challenging and too hard. I loved the DKC games as a kid and never thought them particularly difficult, but Returns beats you down constantly, to the point where I just couldn't finish it despite loving every minute of it (sad to admit it was outside my skill cap).

I'll say that this is the sort of thing I imagined when Nintendo invented the Super Guide, and I wasn't disappointed.
 

jb1234

Member
I think DKCR landed on the wrong side of that fine line between challenging and too hard. I loved the DKC games as a kid and never thought them particularly difficult, but Returns beats you down constantly, to the point where I just couldn't finish it despite loving every minute of it (sad to admit it was outside my skill cap).

For the most part, I haven't found the regular levels to be challenging. Yeah, they get harder as you go along but I still breeze past them. The temples are what really kick my butt and they're optional.
 

Exeunt

Member
I think it's quite interesting that you feel blast and bounce to be one of those types of trial and error levels, because in my opinion it's quite the opposite unless you're just being plain careless.

There were parts of the level (such as when you have to
bounce on the golden tires and avoid the spinning discs
) that felt like they were based on precision and posed a fair challenge, to be sure. Whenever I screw up on a sequence that I know is coming, I know it's my fault and I have to work on my timing or strategy. But when I reach other parts with non-obvious timing such as when
you have to jump up and downward into successive one-use barrels while dodging discs
I need to figure out how to best time my jumps or launches and that often involves dying a number of times to figure out just what works. If I make a mistake in the first part of the level—which again, tends to happen at my skill level—then I don't have much leeway in learning the second part. I do appreciate that there are some things that you can learn (such as how
you will always pass over the discs on the "floating gold tire" sequence if you use a maximum-height jump from the centre of the barrel"
that make the first part easier and it does promote mastery of the level as a whole. Once I had the timing was down (which didn't take too long), I'd always make it past the first barrel sequence but the small window for error meant that it was still a long journey to the next difficult part and then I had to die repeatedly there to nail the timing. It's entirely possible that I'm being too hard on that level having been stuck on it for a good hour last night but it was the first one that came to mind.

For the most part, I haven't found the regular levels to be challenging. Yeah, they get harder as you go along but I still breeze past them. The temples are what really kick my butt and they're optional.

I had trouble here and there during a number of levels (bearing in mind I went for KONG the first time through each one) but it wasn't until the end of World 7 and almost all of World 8 that I had a lot of difficulty just getting to the end. Unless you count World 4, which I found harder than 8 in some regards. And by "some regards," I suppose I mean "mine carts and rocket barrels" but that's just my perspective.
 

jb1234

Member
I had trouble here and there during a number of levels (bearing in mind I went for KONG the first time through each one) but it wasn't until the end of World 7 and almost all of World 8 that I had a lot of difficulty just getting to the end. Unless you count World 4, which I found harder than 8 in some regards. And by "some regards," I suppose I mean "mine carts and rocket barrels" but that's just my perspective.

Yeah, World 4 is tough, something I discovered when I went back through the levels to get all the KONG letters. World 7 wasn't too bad for me until the boss (and I suppose that level where you flip the red and green (blue?) switches to affect walls and floors).

As far as temples go, I found 2 and 3 to be relatively innocuous. The others took many, many, many of my lives. I can't decide whether World 1's is worst or the one you mention with the tires and the barrels.
 

Exeunt

Member
I actually really liked that "switch" level; it reminded me of Super Mario Galaxy, which is a good thing 99% of the time. I have to agree that the temples were a little uneven; if anything, World 8 had one of the shorter, more bearable temples whereas World 1 has a pretty harsh introduction to those levels. Others just breezed by (probably 3 and 4 like you mentioned) in comparison and might've passed for regular levels in the second half of the game.
 

jb1234

Member
I actually really liked that "switch" level; it reminded me of Super Mario Galaxy, which is a good thing 99% of the time. I have to agree that the temples were a little uneven; if anything, World 8 had one of the shorter, more bearable temples whereas World 1 has a pretty harsh introduction to those levels. Others just breezed by (probably 3 and 4 like you mentioned) in comparison and might've passed for regular levels in the second half of the game.

Oh, I really liked the switch level too. I just found it difficult. What's the World 7 temple like, out of curiosity? I want to know if I should pull out the vodka. ;)
 

Exeunt

Member
Funny you should ask; 7-K was a little like the "switch" level. It has you
switching on different parts of a track so that a platform (not mine cart!) can move along. Of course, this involves jumping on different levels, ducking when appropriate, and avoiding different hazards while still keeping up with the moving platform while you're not on it
. I thought it was on the "fun" side of difficult levels, and it shouldn't be too much unless you absolutely have to get all the puzzle pieces on your first run. I think it actually gives you Diddy at the beginning, which is always a nice gesture.
 

JoeInky

Member
World 1's temple level isn't really that hard, I just went on it with no recollection of what the level was like and breezed through it on my first try. It's a great level, though, a nice introduction to the temple levels imo.

World 8's temple level is just horribly boring.
 
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