EndlessFloydian
Member
Well then. Cool.
Yeah, it is definitely one of the more unique titles, and I pray Nintendo decides to remaster it.
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LTTP: Super Mario 3D World - Or, why it's vastly superior over Galaxy 2 in every way
- Thread starter EatinOlives
- Start date
Yeah, it is definitely one of the more unique titles, and I pray Nintendo decides to remaster it.
I object to your argument that being restricted to 8 directions is somehow more precise than full freedom of movement. It forces extra movement if you want to go at an angle besides the predetermined 8 and restricts the level design to conforming to certain shapes to facilitate the movement.
Champion's Road tho
Sunshine's difficulty was often more frustrating than fun.
Mac the KNife
Member
In Galaxy 2, if I tilt the analog stick all the way, Mario is at top speed in like half a second.
In 3D world, if I tilt the stick while holding the run button, Mario doesn't reach top speed until the dash kicks in, which takes a second or two. I've gotten hit, or died, often in 3D World because the dash kicks in at inopportune times, during precision platforming, when surrounded by enemies, etc.
If it was a 1-stage run, where you're either running or not, it wouldn't be as problematic. But since the 2nd stage of the run button doesn't kick in until you've been running for a short time, you can't decelerate then accelerate to max speed in a pinch, which diminishes the precision you have.
Through my playthrough of 3D World I found myself running in circles on "safe" platforms just to get the dash to activate before preceding through the level.
TheGreatMightyPoo
Banned
Yeah, I don't particluarly agree with their design decision there even though it's obvious why they went that route.
The amount of time I have to hold the button to get to one speed or another is the same all of the time. That is the definition of precision. That you don't account for it when running or when surrounded by enemies doesn't make it less precise, since it is the same all of the time.
Cool. Sorry you disliked it, but I liked it, and it works better with the facetracking of the new3DS.
I Wanna Be The Guy
U-S-A! U-S-A! U-S-A!
I do agree that 3D world should be harder, and it should certainly get harder quicker than it does. But I don't think it's any easier than the Galaxy games at all, and Champions Road is harder than anything in either Galaxy. I want the next 3D Mario game to have a NSMBU style challenge mode.
LegalEagleMike
Member
I also liked 3d land better. I did not think the vantage point worked as well on console without actual 3d. Plus I thought World was too easy and the bowser fights were bleh.
Glorified G
Member
I've never seen such a downgrade in level design and quality from one game to the next entry. Galaxy 2 is one of the best overall games released last generation. 3D World was not even the best platformer released on the Wiii U in 2013.
I'm pretty confident that two different teams worked on both games. There is no other explanation.
I'm pretty confident that two different teams worked on both games. There is no other explanation.
I Wanna Be The Guy
U-S-A! U-S-A! U-S-A!
Limited movement options makes for a tighter gameplay experience. I'd argue it's one of the only 3D Mario games where the platforming does feel right.
TheGreatMightyPoo
Banned
Or they had a different focus ala multiplayer.
Same guy that directed Galaxy 2 directed 3D World.
This and 3DL are the only 3D mario games I even enjoy.
The idea that limited movement angle options makes for better gameplay is silly. The player should be able to control the character in a straight line without just removing every other options.
Not to mention that it's just more intuitive to move in the same direction your analog stick is pushed. There's a reason 8 direction movement is often called "stiff" or "unnatural"; it removes a form of feedback for the player's motions.
Why is silly? I agree. I think designing platforming around a more limited, focused moveset makes for better (imo) level design with an emphasis on the thing I care about most.
When you create levels based around a larger moveset and more mobility, you naturally have to give Mario and co. a playground in which to use these moves.
Also, no, it isn't more intuitive. It's just what you're used to. There's nothing wrong with either approach.
Luigi is hurt.
Seriously, Luigi made solo 3d world fun. Mario games have never been my cup of tea, but his slipperiness and jump height kept things interesting.
Collectibles are not 'just for the sake of it', they provide a reason to explore and replay levels.
There's zero reason to explore most of the Galaxy levels, which is why it's a more linear game than SM3DW with its very well hidden green stars and stamps.
Nice write up op. I won't choose between the galaxy duo and 3D world since all three are awesome tho I'll have give the latter bonus point for 5 different characters choices to liven things up(especially Peach). Really hope they keep that trend for future games
My God that lava boat's physics were so damn bad. Never again.
It would definitely be cool if 3D World had a higher difficulty level though. World Flower's difficulty should have been reached by the last few worlds of the main game.
Prevolition
Member
For the record, 3D World is actually 12-directional (or is it 16? I can't remember.)
Mac the KNife
Member
Except that's not how it works. In Galaxy the tilt of the stick matches the speed of Mario's movement.
In 3D World, with the run button held Mario will stay in the 1st stage of his run as long as the analog stick is less than half way tilted. If the stick is more than half way tilted, sparks will emerge, signifying that the second stage of Mario's dash is about to engage. You can back off this and just keep running at half speed, but you won't get the sparks again if you go full tilt and there's still the delay before you do.
To go half speed in Galaxy I tilt the stick halfway. To go half speed in 3D World, I tilt the stick halfway and hold a button. And if I slip up and go more than half way I burst into a dash with no warning. I'd call that less precision.
Possibly. But I feel that they just force you to play the game in a more specific way and give you less options to experiment with. I suppose it's partly because it was just something else than what I was expecting. Instead of timing triple and long jumps to create shortcuts you can't even properly jump without running around for a bit the reach the highest velocity.
It is more intuitive. Having full range of motion means more feedback for every movement the player does. For example, let's say you slowly switch from left to a diagonal left-up direction. In a game with full 360 degree motion, you see the character making the change in motion, telling the player how the control stick is moving. In 8 way movement, the character suddenly snaps between moving straight left and moving diagonally; there is no feedback for anything in-between.
Another good example is rotating the analog stick in a full 360 degree circle. In a game with full freedom of movement, the character follows the rotation; a circular motion with the stick produces a circular motion with the character. With 8 way dash, the character jerkily moves in a straight-lined octagon.
It's depressing that, after Nintendo managed to so successfully capitalize off of the full freedom of movement an analog stick brings, they're taking steps back to restrict mobility with games like Other M.
Is there any form of analog control in 3D World? I thought there wasn't, and since the game was designed around digital movement, it would seem weird to me to have anything other than "moving," or "not moving" with the analog.
But I wouldn't know about your experience since I use the d-pad, so I can't comment on that. I haven't had that happen to me, ever, using a d-pad.
Agree to disagree. None of that sounds "more" intuitive to me. Just sounds like something you prefer.
I prefer the suddenly snapping since I know exactly what will happen when I press a direction, as opposed to turning by degrees when I press analog.
Excellent points regarding why and how one would enjoy 3DW more than SMG2.
I don't think I agree with the movements of the character though.
I feel like 3DL and 3DW would work better on dpads rather than using analog sticks.
I mean 8 way controls in a 3D environment is already a huge step down but I feel like the stick is less responsive which would explain why I only play using the dpads in 3DW.
3DW would be better if it featured the 3D of 3DL because that really helps in the end, I was VERY skeptical of it before playing 3DW but really I was wrong here.
3DW is more challenging for the wrong reasons because of this I feel.
I think I would need to replay SMG2, 3DW to get a stronger idea on which I prefer.
I still feel like I prefer SMG1 though.
3DL is no slouch either, it manages to provide a good challenge on the second part while the 1rst is really enjoyable while being rather easy.
I mean if you're not in a hurry to get challenged it's kinda great.
I don't think I agree with the movements of the character though.
I feel like 3DL and 3DW would work better on dpads rather than using analog sticks.
I mean 8 way controls in a 3D environment is already a huge step down but I feel like the stick is less responsive which would explain why I only play using the dpads in 3DW.
3DW would be better if it featured the 3D of 3DL because that really helps in the end, I was VERY skeptical of it before playing 3DW but really I was wrong here.
3DW is more challenging for the wrong reasons because of this I feel.
I think I would need to replay SMG2, 3DW to get a stronger idea on which I prefer.
I still feel like I prefer SMG1 though.
3DL is no slouch either, it manages to provide a good challenge on the second part while the 1rst is really enjoyable while being rather easy.
I mean if you're not in a hurry to get challenged it's kinda great.
Icyflamez96
Member
I've only played 3D world and not the galaxy games, or much of the other 3D Marios for that matter.
I love platforming, and honestly, even though people say the Galaxy games are way better, they look worse to me because they seem to be more fluff and less of a straight up, focused platforming experience, which I don't like.
Hopefully I do end up enjoying those games more though.
I love platforming, and honestly, even though people say the Galaxy games are way better, they look worse to me because they seem to be more fluff and less of a straight up, focused platforming experience, which I don't like.
Hopefully I do end up enjoying those games more though.
Wii and Gamecube dpads in the same sentence?
Yeah no.
The GC dpad was a useless appendage like a arms of a Trex, absolutely useless but still there for some reason.
Wii's Dpad was more than enough for any 2D games you can throw at it and playing 2D games on dualshocks is kinda like playing Monster Hunter on a PSP in term of comfort.
And you're absolutely right about 3D movement on a Dpad, I mean that's the very reason we got an analog stick on the n64 after all.
Meh, it's a staple of 2D Mario too, if you hated them there you'll hate them here too.
evilromero
Member
There was no 2D Mario formula until NSMB ran it into the ground. SMB, SMB2, SMB3 and SMW are pretty different from each other in terms of physics, power-ups and mechanics. There was no formula other than running over obstacles and jumping on enemies.
I completely agree about the controls part. For all the criticism it received, 3D Land introduced this concept of semi-digital movement in a 3D space which I find perfect for a platformer. And this is from someone who loves the controls of all Mario 3D games; but what 3D Land and 3D World achieved is sublime.
Dr. Buni
Member
It might be better than Galaxy 2, but it is nowhere near as good as Galaxy. Overall I found the game a bit boring, even though I think some of the levels and music are absolutely gorgeous (the beach music is probably my favorite music in the series). The design of the game being centered on multiplayer kinda hurt my enjoyment with 3D World (which is why I appreciate the more focused level structure of 3D Land better, it is too bad it doesn't top 3D World in music and it also doesn't let me play as Peach).
Mac the KNife
Member
Next time you boot up the game just run around the opening part of 1-1 for a bit. As you said, with the D-Pad there's no difference between moving and not moving except when the second stage of the dash kicks in. You can't even stay at half speed with the D-Pad which really highlights the issue I have with it.
After that try moving with the analog stick, keeping in mind that having the stick tilted less than half way allows you to stay at half speed, which is less than ideal but at least helpful. Then try moving at half speed and see how the full speed dash kicks in.
My issue is less with the run button itself (though I can't say I like it) and more with how the dash itself works.
Glorified G
Member
That must be it. I didn't play it multiplayer, but there were definitely long gaps in some levels and too much open space. It was the first time I said to myself "This is a Mario game, why am I bored?"
uncleslappy
nethack is my favorite dark souls clone
I was just thinking about this debate today, and here's what I came up with:
3D World is essentially Mario's Greatest Hits record, where as Galaxy or Galaxy 2 is his defining album.
3D World is comprised of little pieces of what made the legacy Mario games great. For example, you're collecting hidden stars AND looking for a flagpole. It's got the 4-player zaniness from New Super Mario Bros Wii. It's got powerups from almost every game in the series.
So like a greatest hits record, you're getting the absolute best that Mario has to offer.
However, just like a greatest hits record, it lacks soul. It doesn't have that feeling of being something that was pored over and worried about and perfected and reperfected. Instead, it's big wigs in a corner office basing what goes in the game on stats and focus groups. It's a labor of profit over a labor of love.
Sure, a greatest hit record from your favorite band will probably get more play when you're with your friends or you need a familiar tune, but that one album that defined the band will always be what you go back to.
3D World is essentially Mario's Greatest Hits record, where as Galaxy or Galaxy 2 is his defining album.
3D World is comprised of little pieces of what made the legacy Mario games great. For example, you're collecting hidden stars AND looking for a flagpole. It's got the 4-player zaniness from New Super Mario Bros Wii. It's got powerups from almost every game in the series.
So like a greatest hits record, you're getting the absolute best that Mario has to offer.
However, just like a greatest hits record, it lacks soul. It doesn't have that feeling of being something that was pored over and worried about and perfected and reperfected. Instead, it's big wigs in a corner office basing what goes in the game on stats and focus groups. It's a labor of profit over a labor of love.
Sure, a greatest hit record from your favorite band will probably get more play when you're with your friends or you need a familiar tune, but that one album that defined the band will always be what you go back to.
Dr. Buni
Member
Exactly my feelings. There were far too many long gaps in levels and I sure as hell don't like boring empty spaces in games (which is why I avoid open world games and the likes).
That's a great analogy.
Mr. Wonderful
Member
Yeah, with 3D Land and 3D World, I felt like 3D Mario games had transitioned to an interactive experience, similar to Journey or Flower, rather than a game.
I have no issue with it. I don't see a need to stay at half speed. I know exactly what speed I'll be going, how to maintain speed, and what will make me decelerate. The thought of trying to stay at half speed has literally never crossed my mind. The analog thing is weird, and I'd definitely say that's an issue that should be addressed since it doesn't make much sense within the context of this game.
This controls exactly like the 2D games, on dpad at least, and that's precisely why I like it.
CharminUltra
Member
Love both games for different reasons. I refuse to choose one.
Sir Ilpalazzo
Member
Every game is an interactive experience.
The running thing in 3D World always annoyed me. I hated how it takes a second to start running compared to Galaxy. Anyway, I need to replay Galaxy 2, but the Galaxies always felt more inventive and impressive with some of the most creative platforming challenges, along with other stuff. 3D World is more polished for sure, but I agree that for the most part it doesn't feel new or fresh. There are a few for sure, mostly with the circus and cherry levels, but the creativity pales in comparison to Galaxy, even if the level design isn't necessarily worse. Though I personally find the arguments between the two to be like arguing what flavor of triple chocolate cake you prefer. Both are so good that I don't want to downplay either of them.
Calamari41
41 > 38
Having also played the three games literally at the same time recently, swapping back and forth until all were completed, I have to agree with the OP. The two Galaxy games had incredibly short and simple levels and tasks overall compared to 3D World.
The Bowser levels in the Galaxy games were by far the best. And, well, those were basically 3D World levels.
The Bowser levels in the Galaxy games were by far the best. And, well, those were basically 3D World levels.
Gillian Seed
Banned
To me Galaxy 1 is still the pinnacle of 3D Mario gameplay, but my favorite is Mario 64 due to Nostalgia.
That's kind of a good point.
I guess I was just kind of fine with enjoying the easier stages on my way through the game, and not in a hurry. I like the challenge. I was glad to beat champions road. But I wasn't having some kind of road rage- like response to a level not bustin' my balls. I could see that happening if I was in just the right mood, though. Not road rage- like, but maybe perturbed by easy levels when I really only wanted the hard stuff.
Anyways, I think I agree that overall, as a Mario game in three Dee, 3D world is better than Galaxy 2.
I can't say better than that.
That's hardcore . They are great games, both of 'em.
ALLseeingEYE
Member
These are some interesting points. I haven't finished either of the games, so perhaps take my opinion with a grain of salt, but my impression was that the Galaxy series was vastly more creative than anything I saw in 3D World.