Astral/H3X
Member
TIL people used an analog stick in 3Dworld.
Duh, no wonder you didn't like it. Use a dpad like you are supposed to.
Duh, no wonder you didn't like it. Use a dpad like you are supposed to.
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LTTP: Super Mario 3D World - Or, why it's vastly superior over Galaxy 2 in every way
- Thread starter EatinOlives
- Start date
What makes 3D World so great is how it teaches the player about the mechanics within the world and how they work without interrupting gameplay or introducing prompts and such. That's not an easy thing to do especially in a game that is bursting at the seams with content and innovation at every corner. Such a great game and you can tell that a lot of thought was put into it and the way in which the levels are designed. You can tell that they had fun making it, it seems like like the culmination of 3D Mario games and is the end goal so to speak. I'm interested in where they'll go next 
lensoftruth
Member
Just tried the last of us, my got what a load of shit. Now playing this, which is a game. I will never get all the stars though, it's just too hard
ElectricBlanketFire
Member
Character selection for one.
lensoftruth
Member
Why do they have to compete? Both are great
GiantBreadbug
Member
I completely agree, couldn't have said it better myself.
This is why the best, in my opinion, is 3D Land. It defines all of the improvements that are also in 3D World, but also has levels that are more tightly designed around the single player. And there's another thing. I know some people on GAF love how 3D World's levels have this consistant "4-step obstacle teaching" thing going on but, particularly upon replay, it makes the levels overly formulaic, predictable and leaves these empty-feeling "gaps" between each obstacle set-up. 2D Mario was never that formulaic. Whilst there was some usage of the formula seen in 3D World, the levels were still generally "messy" and were better for it. Instead of having a unique obstacle repeated numerous times in the same level, perfected, and then never used again, it's better to spread out the obstacle's design-progression throughout the game. It's better that the obstacle appears maybe once in an occasional level, and each time with a new challenge or twist to it. This enables more variety in the level design, because you can then combine obstacles which would otherwise never cross over. The player still "learns" the mechanic as he plays, and the mechanic still "progresses" and becomes more complex as it goes, but it's not so much of a "pick up and drop the mechanic" experience, which I honestly think is the biggest problem with Mario today. It's breaking up the game into non-interacting chunks for the sake of some faux air of elegance.
I'm going to talk about Tropical Freeze for a second. Every level of Donkey Kong Tropical Freeze has roughly 3-4 unique mechanics that are never used in a level again, and there's more of these in the more famous levels, but these levels are also balanced by having 3-4 elements that are repeated in other parts of the game which "progress" as they go in such the desirable way I'm wanting for 3D mario.
Let's look at the vines in TF, for example. If Mario 3D World were to have a level about swinging on vines, that level that would be the sole place that mechanic would be used. The level would go something like this. The player would encounter a vine in a "safezone," and then a vine over a danger zone. Then the vine would be used in different ways. Finally there'd be a twist that would change the way the player approached the vine. Donkey Kong TF actually has this progression formula for its vine mechanic, but separates the steps and spreads them out across numerous levels. It makes sure not to isolate each mechanics it grows in a single stage.
3D world does have a lot of mechanics that are used over the entire game (the goombas, for example) but the difference is that those common mechanics don't identifiably grow or progress, they're just used over and over in variable but not wholly expanding ways, whereas in Donkey Kong, they do "click" along the progression steps. 3D World simply doesn't see all of its mechanics as things that need to "grow," and only gives this treatment the the unique-per-level elements that get one stage each (plus maybe an unsatisfying remix stage.) To be fair, I don't think any 3D game has ever reached the kind of perfection I'm accusing 3D World of missing, and it's certainly easier tor reach it with 2D Donkey Kong than it is with 3D Mario.
And there is something directly in 3D World's favour: TF simply doesn't have the space to grow or progress any single element to the extent Mario 3D World is able to. This is purely due to focus. No element in TF ever actually reaches the "#4 Twist" stage which marks the climax of a 3D Mario level. This is sacrificed in order to get every element in the level to reach "3# Challenge." TF levels usually end with, at most, two elements coming together as one. But I think the sacrifices TF make are more worthy than the ones 3D world make. It's better to grow everything a little, rather than favor some mechanics/elements over others..
The 3D World director mentioned, in Iwata Asks, that the "4 Step Poem" thing wasn't really a design philosophy in his mind until 3D World, and this shows in 3D Land, where the levels are messier and feel more like Super Mario Bros 3: a result of not designing the levels around formulaic 4-step-bits which divide the level into a specific order of pieces; almost micro-levels within themselves. The rooms of a Zelda dungeon. Level design where anything that's not part of the level's "4-step obstacle teaching progression" just feels like a lesser inclusion. In fact, my favourite levels in 3D World are basically the first two, because they don't have any "platforming obstacles" in mind to progress and just have wonderfully flowing courses.
lensoftruth
Member
I'd agree with you at one point but I've started g2 and it a work of genius above the previous.
I fucking hate Nintendo as they make all other games seem shit, I want konami and capcom back!
Disagree with the premise, agree with a lot of the points.
I totally agree that 3dworld is absolutely the true successor to the series that started as a 2d platformer.
It absolutely is 2d mario in 3d.
I just like adventure games better than pure platformers.
Great read though.
I totally agree that 3dworld is absolutely the true successor to the series that started as a 2d platformer.
It absolutely is 2d mario in 3d.
I just like adventure games better than pure platformers.
Great read though.
lensoftruth
Member
Premise of what?
I do wonder what maya motto will cook up next time! It's gonna be amazing either way
I do wonder what maya motto will cook up next time! It's gonna be amazing either way
Adam Prime
hates soccer, is Mexican
I'm on Flower World right now, jeesh the platforming is hard in 3D space. I've jumped off the level too many times because I couldn't judge how far or close I was in 3D space. When any 3D Mario game requires precision jumping on tiny landing spaces, it shows off how flawed these games are at requiring perfect jumps in 3D space.
I dunno, I loved Galaxy 2 and 3DW but everytime I play them I just wish I was back playing Tropical Freeze instead because platform jumping in 3D space is frustrating sometimes.
I dunno, I loved Galaxy 2 and 3DW but everytime I play them I just wish I was back playing Tropical Freeze instead because platform jumping in 3D space is frustrating sometimes.
lensoftruth
Member
Just remember it's 16 way control, but also let it flow for you. The levels are designed to play like a ninja but there's no rush
I like how debates on which 3D Mario is the best always comes down to slight preferences and which masterpiece is the best. It's a lot more civil compared to the mudslinging that goes around in 3D Zelda debates, where the one someone doesn't like is so often called trash that defies what Zelda should be.
To be fair, I think Mario has had the better team. Each game has goals that are clear and progressive. Even if they are sometimes missteps on the road to perfection, it's obvious EAD learns a ton about 3D game design from making each game. I mean look what they just put out - a platformer without jumping, and it gets away with it through the way it uses 3D game design.
Op, I'm happy for you and Imma let you finish,
but NSMB U is the best Mario game (2D or 3D) of ALL TIME
and both Galaxy games are better too.
3D World is in fact the worst 3D mario to date, a failed attempt to fix 2D and 3D Mario elements and even lacking the originality and real 3D that 3D Land offered.
but NSMB U is the best Mario game (2D or 3D) of ALL TIME
and both Galaxy games are better too.
3D World is in fact the worst 3D mario to date, a failed attempt to fix 2D and 3D Mario elements and even lacking the originality and real 3D that 3D Land offered.
Wut?
Kai Dracon
Writing a dinosaur space opera symphony
I can appreciate where the OP is coming from and agree with many points, though I can't really see Galaxy 2 as a failed attempt to get to where 3D World is.
The 3D Land/World games, to me, are more like a split off from what Galaxy 2 did to bring back missing elements from 2D Mario. 3D World damn near perfects a literal fusion of 2D and 3D Mario and returns the replayability factor of non-timed, non-limited power ups. What holds it back from simply being better than Galaxy 1 or 2 for my taste is the focus on easing players into 3D in 3D Land, and the multiplayer requirement of 3D World. These factors seem to restrict the level design from going completely over the top like the Galaxy games do, which isn't to say the levels are bad. Land/World have some of the best levels in a Mario game, hands down.
Ultimately I'd like to a new single player 3D Mario game informed by both Galaxy and 3D World, combining free form environments and perspectives with the power ups and many intricate gadgets and mechanics created in 3D World.
The 3D Land/World games, to me, are more like a split off from what Galaxy 2 did to bring back missing elements from 2D Mario. 3D World damn near perfects a literal fusion of 2D and 3D Mario and returns the replayability factor of non-timed, non-limited power ups. What holds it back from simply being better than Galaxy 1 or 2 for my taste is the focus on easing players into 3D in 3D Land, and the multiplayer requirement of 3D World. These factors seem to restrict the level design from going completely over the top like the Galaxy games do, which isn't to say the levels are bad. Land/World have some of the best levels in a Mario game, hands down.
Ultimately I'd like to a new single player 3D Mario game informed by both Galaxy and 3D World, combining free form environments and perspectives with the power ups and many intricate gadgets and mechanics created in 3D World.
TheSpaceBetween
Member
I agree. Galaxy 2 was a disappointment after the incredible Galaxy, and 3D Land was even worse. I had begun to lose faith in EAD Tokyo until the incredible 3D World and Captain Toad. Bring on Galaxy 3 baby.
The Hermit
Member
This would be my ranking as well. Galaxy 2 is great, but it lacks its own identity, borrowing most from G1
I'd say it's the exact reverse!
TheSpaceBetween
Member
I felt it was like a watered down version of Galaxy. Less good music, less good level design, less gravity based sequences, smaller galaxies, less focus on unique stars and more focus on stupid prankster comets and stupid chimp mini games, dumb new cloud suit...
It does do some cool things though and there are some great levels. The bosses were better overall, Yoshi was kinda fun and I enjoyed the drill and the rock suit.
LSauchelli
Member
The character design is also on a completely different league. 3D World's look like the characters came straight from the manuals of the older games.
Aaron Strife
Banned
3D World is pretty fantastic. Some of the shade it still gets is irritating. No one wanted to give it a chance after the admittedly disappointing E3 reveal.
Whether you prefer it or the Galaxy series comes down more to personal preference and what you look for in a video game. I think Galaxy is much more experimental and expressive, whereas 3D World is more distilled Mario and would probably be my preference - but that doesn't change that the Galaxy games are fucking amazing. I would love something like a Super Rosalina Galaxy to keep the series going.
Whether you prefer it or the Galaxy series comes down more to personal preference and what you look for in a video game. I think Galaxy is much more experimental and expressive, whereas 3D World is more distilled Mario and would probably be my preference - but that doesn't change that the Galaxy games are fucking amazing. I would love something like a Super Rosalina Galaxy to keep the series going.
higgsboson1997
Member
Fantastic post, OP.
I agree with you in most aspects. In my opinion, 3D World is the definitive Mario platformer.
However, the very fact that it is extremely controversial which is the best Mario, and each one has won multiple GOTY awards, shows the extreme consistency and quality of the series. I don't think any other series in the industry is filled with as many classic titles.
I agree with you in most aspects. In my opinion, 3D World is the definitive Mario platformer.
However, the very fact that it is extremely controversial which is the best Mario, and each one has won multiple GOTY awards, shows the extreme consistency and quality of the series. I don't think any other series in the industry is filled with as many classic titles.
AntiFacebook
Member
It may be superior to SMG2,but no way it even comes close to SMG1
Not to mention SM64 that still has the crown.
Not to mention SM64 that still has the crown.
dampflokfreund
Banned
This may be true. Though, OST and the bosses were way better in Galaxy 2. More bosses and more creative.
Yah it's good. Don't know if it's better than Galaxy 2. Change in perspective is so big that it feels like 2 different games. Level design is better in 3D. Music is better in Galaxy 2. Galaxy 2 is harder (for me at least). 3D has proper multi. As for powerups. I preffer the Galaxy 2 ones. Nothing beats cloud mario.
Is it superior ? No it's different.
I Wanna Be The Guy
U-S-A! U-S-A! U-S-A!
I was ready to to give you thumbs up for the NSMBU love. Best 2D Mario for sure and challenge mode is the GOAT.
But then you had to go and ruin everything. It's not a failed attempt to mix 2D and 3D Mario. It's a very successful one and I believe it has the best 3D platforming in the series.
TheRedSnifit
Member
LOL no.
That level is the most artificially difficult level in Mario history. The physics are literally broken, and there are invisible walls and high-gravity areas every twenty feet. Example:
It is almost impossible to reach that coin because the game carries you over it, regardless of momentum, and then throws up an invisible wall once you pass it so you can't reach it from the other side. You're free to think that buggy, janky, level design that never should have made it through beta is the epitome of level design, but almost everybody else disagrees. The only good things in Sunshine were the FLUDD-less platforming levels.
I would agree if the controls weren't so awful in 3DWorld. Sonic floatiness, lack of precision due to the eight way maneuvering, a run button that doesn't even give you discrete controls (you still accelerate), and a camera that constantly makes you misjudge jumps.
If you play it for a long time you kind of get accustomed to it. But stop playing for half a year and try to return to it, UGHH. Mario Galaxy conversely plays like a dream. And Galaxy 1 is infinitely superior to every other Mario game ever.
If you play it for a long time you kind of get accustomed to it. But stop playing for half a year and try to return to it, UGHH. Mario Galaxy conversely plays like a dream. And Galaxy 1 is infinitely superior to every other Mario game ever.
Majima Everywhere System
Member
I tried to play 3D World but never with someone else if that matters.
The game was dull and too wide through the end of World 6. I wasn't having problems getting whatever the hell there were 3 of in each level.
I couldn't even bother to finish it even when I knew I was going to trade it in. Something about 3d World feels like work, which is surprising because there are novel areas and mechanics and creatures. None of them have any style. It's all far too clean, and it lacks energy because the goal is perfecting a formula instead of starting something new.
I loved Mario 64, but maybe what I liked about that game was never the platforming. That game has "questing" in zones and a really consistent game world. Perhaps I got out of Mario 64 what one gets out of Skyrim, and the controls weren't in your way for the time period.
The game was dull and too wide through the end of World 6. I wasn't having problems getting whatever the hell there were 3 of in each level.
I couldn't even bother to finish it even when I knew I was going to trade it in. Something about 3d World feels like work, which is surprising because there are novel areas and mechanics and creatures. None of them have any style. It's all far too clean, and it lacks energy because the goal is perfecting a formula instead of starting something new.
I loved Mario 64, but maybe what I liked about that game was never the platforming. That game has "questing" in zones and a really consistent game world. Perhaps I got out of Mario 64 what one gets out of Skyrim, and the controls weren't in your way for the time period.
Nah. Champion Road is one of (or maybe THE) most difficult individual level in any Mario game.
THIS.
Mango The Magician
Banned
I disagree.
For me it's...
Galaxy 1>>> 64> Sunshine>Galaxy 2>>>3D World>>> 3D Land.
3D World is fun but is terribly boring compared to any other 3D Mario other than the sleeping medication known as 3D Land.
For me it's...
Galaxy 1>>> 64> Sunshine>Galaxy 2>>>3D World>>> 3D Land.
3D World is fun but is terribly boring compared to any other 3D Mario other than the sleeping medication known as 3D Land.