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[DDayton]

Yea pretty much. Drawing a line somewhere is absurd

Why?

We draw lines all the time in society, generally to help keep things from going insane. Are you saying that drawing a line regarding MEDIA specifically is insane (thus everything should be allowed, including rape simulation games, games in which you photorealistically shoot kids, etc.), or that all lines ANYWHERE in society should be removed?

I just don't "get" people that say we should effectively have no restrictions on anything, anywhere...

 

[Deepblue]

These days, an M-rating means Adults Only anyways. Maybe if some real games like this start getting AO ratings, the system will start working like its supposed to.

Not really. M seems to have a much wider range that logically would include several ratings. See Halo versus Gears of War.

 

[SapientWolf]

These days, an M-rating means Adults Only anyways. Maybe if some real games like this start getting AO ratings, the system will start working like its supposed to.

I really, really don't like how the AO rating is equated with NC-17, because M isn't anywhere near as bad as an R rated movie. Doesn't Sin City pretty much have everything Manhunt 2 does, content-wise?

All you need to get an M rating is blood or a few f-bombs. It has always felt like a marketing decision to me.

 

[rs7k]

I knew this was gonna happen the day Manhunt 2 was announced for the Wii. If released, it will be the biggest video game target for politicians in the histpry of videogames.

Rockstar would be retarded to release the game as a AO title. They'd lose money and further damage their reputation. Do you really think we need Hillary Clinton to get more political attention?

 

[Deepblue]

I really, really don't like how the AO rating is equated with NC-17, because M isn't anywhere near as bad as an R rated movie. Doesn't Sin City pretty much have everything Manhunt 2 does, content-wise?

All you need to get an M rating is blood or a few f-bombs. It has always felt like a marketing decision to me.

Sticky blood. Blood that disappears quickly is fine as long as there are not copious amounts. Seems like a bit of an arbitrary decision really. Again, there is a very distinct difference between Halo (sticky blood that's not extremely prominent/is purple, few instances of PG-13 language) and Gears of War (blood doesn't stick, but there's ALOT of it, gets on the camera, leaks on the floor, constant cursing/few f-bombs).

 

[badcrumble]

So much for this being a "killer app" among "adults"! Ha ha! Get it? Puns rule.

 

[RichyDevil]

That sure sounds like prolonged intense violence to me. This game deserves an adult rating. It should not be banned. It should recieve a correct rating, and the rating should be enforced. Simple.

I agree. I love a lot of the games Rockstar makes, and have no problem with this game getting an initial AO rating.

While it's evident that the ESRB is under extreme political pressure these days and video games are the current scourge of the blame-centric media, I think that the content in the game warrants the rating.

Rockstar knows what they were doing and the environment in which they operate. If they're unhappy with the rating, they have no one to blame but themselves.

To paraphrase a completely non-related recent review by Garnett Lee, just because something can be done doesn't mean that it should be. I don't think the world is crying out for Manhunt 2, and its existence does not serve the gaming community at large well at all. If anything, it makes us all worse off.

 

[Rorschach]

Yes. Developing on Wii prevents you from issuing AO games.

WHAT A SHOCK. This will undoubtedly have a chilling effect toward Wii on all the other companies currently developing AO games for console.

...time to check your sarcasm detector. I should use like 20 :lol smilies or something.

 

[Slavik81]

I really, really don't like how the AO rating is equated with NC-17, because M isn't anywhere near as bad as an R rated movie. Doesn't Sin City pretty much have everything Manhunt 2 does, content-wise?

All you need to get an M rating is blood or a few f-bombs. It has always felt like a marketing decision to me.

Given the way things are going, I think it might be a good idea if the ESRB rebranded 'M' as 'R' and 'AO' as 'NC-17'. That would make it perfectly clear exactly what sort of content should be expected in M and AO titles.

Then again, while the ESRB is an international organization, the MPAA rating system exists only in the United States...

 

[Kittonwy]

AO? Who's going to stock Manhunt 2 if they keep it AO? Whatever they need to do, they need to do it to get it back to at least M.

 

[Fio]

Well, the game has already been reviewed by N-Gamer (according to CVG, got a 9.2 ) It means that the full game already exists and even if Rockstar get back and censor it, the full version will pop up somewhere.

 

[SapientWolf]

AO? Who's going to stock Manhunt 2 if they keep it AO? Whatever they need to do, they need to do it to get it back to at least M.

The ESRB has too much power if the AO rating dooms a game. I mean, what is to stop them from giving GTAIV an AO until they take out the cop killing? All the political pressure against them is putting them in a tight spot so that move wouldn't surprise me now.

 

[Son of Godzilla]

Why?

We draw lines all the time in society, generally to help keep things from going insane. Are you saying that drawing a line regarding MEDIA specifically is insane (thus everything should be allowed, including rape simulation games, games in which you photorealistically shoot kids, etc.), or that all lines ANYWHERE in society should be removed?

I just don't "get" people that say we should effectively have no restrictions on anything, anywhere...

The problem with drawing a line in this case aren't the extremes of Manhunt and Doki Doki Rape Sim, but the stuff that comes before it. It's absurd that the ESRB be allowed to go after the easy stuff but fall on it's ass before the brunt of the industry.

Not to mention that the system as is is essentially censorship. Half the posts in this thread are people assuming R* will retool it for an M. That isn't a ratings system, that's censorship. If the system worked then that single year difference between childhood and legal autonomy wouldn't mean spit with regards to sales.

 

[Scottlarock]

Well, the game has already been reviewed by N-Gamer (according to CVG, got a 9.2 ) It means that the full game already exists and even if Rockstar get back and censor it, the full version will pop up somewhere.

CVG(Ngamer), ya, full version, ya....(long line of dots)

 

[StrikerObi]

The questions here are, will Take Two tone down their game, or release it unrated, and also, does the game retail industry behave the same way that the cinema industry does, or instead like the DVD retail industry?

If a movie receives an NC-17 rating from the MPAA, most national cinema chains will not carry it. The movie is destined to fail, regardless of it's quality. It will get zero advertising and if it screens at all, it will screen in independent cinemas.

We know, at least according to this story and past history, that major retail chains will not carry a game that is marked with an "AO" rating by the ESRB.

Now, would it be possible for Take Two to release Manhunt 2 without a rating? There is nothing forcing them to accept the rating. In fact, movies sometimes do not accept their NC-17 ratings, and release "unrated".

For example, the documentary "This Film is Not Yet Rated" was fated with an NC-17 rating, and released "unrated" theatrically. The director chose not to accept the MPAA's rating. (The movie is about how corrupt the MPAA is, just so you know.) In the movie business, "unrated" is as good as NC-17, at least in cinemas.

On the other hand, DVDs are released as "unrated" editions all the time. In fact, it's a big marketing tactic. "Unrated" movies are not necassarily any more violent or sexual than their rated counterparts. The unrated version is simply not the exact same film the MPAA screened. Take a movie, add a deleted scene into the feature presentation (even if it's about kittens eating ice cream), plop it on a DVD and bam, it's "unrated".

Big retailers (wal-mart, best buy, etc) all carry unrated DVDs. So, how do they treat an unrated game? Do they act like a cinema and screw it, or do they act like a retailer and sell it?

For the record, I'm not passing judgement on Take Two or Manhunt 2. I'm just posing the question of how Take Two is going to handle this. Personally, I think they should release it unrated. If they believe in the product, and think it is quality, they should let the world see it the way they want it seen, even if that view is absolutely for "adults only". If retail won't carry it unrated, they'll almost certainly buckle and change the game.

 

[azrael p.o.s.]

Doesn't an AO rating mean that Nintendo (or Sony for that matter) won't officially license the title?

 

[StrikerObi]

Then again, while the ESRB is an international organization, the MPAA rating system exists only in the United States...

Uh... what? The ESRB may rate games created in other countries, but those ratings only stick in America... Japan has CERO and Europe has a whole bunch of different ratings boards (hence why Manhunt 2 is being banned in the UK, but only given an restrictive rating here in the states).

The ESRB has too much power if the AO rating dooms a game. I mean, what is to stop them from giving GTAIV an AO until they take out the cop killing

The MPAA has too much power. NC-17 kills films. It kills excellent films like The Dreamers. Really, everybody should see This Film is Not Yet Rated. If you want to see a group of corrupt mother****ers, just find the MPAA ratings dept. The thing is, you can't because they are shrouded in secrecy. This Film is Not Yet Rated blows the doors off their identities. It's wonderful.

 

[davepoobond]

Doesn't an AO rating mean that Nintendo (or Sony for that matter) won't officially license the title?

AFAIK, i haven't heard anything about console manufacturers not allowing games on their console based on rating.

RETAILERS, however, will never carry an AO game, just because. Its like the equivalent of an NC-17 rated movie for Theaters -- you'll never get it in one.

Rockstar will have to sell it online through their web site only or through small retailers that don't care about ESRB ratings as far as the AO rating goes.

unless they cut out stuff.

but Manhunt 2 COULD be an experiment into how far they can push the envelope yet still sell, unlike GTA: SA which was just a fluke...but still got massive sales

 

[Alcibiades]

Nintendo can't keep up with demand as it is, I'd hate to see the frenzy after news gets out about this...

The mindshare for the Wii is going to be absolutely crazy this summer, only Halo 3 will be able to compete in terms of media attention.

I hope Nintendo does allow an AO release. It's the best way to get immature teenagers yr. olds to want the system.

 

[kylej]

Rockstar: Open up an online store and release an Unrated (AO) Special Edition version.

I'd pay $100+ for it.

Do it.

http://rockstarwarehouse.stores.yahoo.net/ma2wip.html

 

[Mariah Carey]

I really, really don't like how the AO rating is equated with NC-17, because M isn't anywhere near as bad as an R rated movie. Doesn't Sin City pretty much have everything Manhunt 2 does, content-wise?

All you need to get an M rating is blood or a few f-bombs. It has always felt like a marketing decision to me.

I don't believe that is true at all. I've almost always found most M rated games to be more consistently violent than their R-rated movie cousins, and until recently got away with it because video games aren't as realistic. And yes, blood and a few f-bombs will garner a movie an almost automatic R-rating.

 

[azrael p.o.s.]

AFAIK, i haven't heard anything about console manufacturers not allowing games on their console based on rating.

I'm fairly certain they do.

This is from the Nintendo website - http://www.nintendo.com/consumer/buyers_guide.jsp:

*Please note that Nintendo does not sell or license games that carry the ESRB rating "AO" (Adults Only).

I also believe Sony has the same policy for licensing games.

What does this mean for Manhunt 2? If R* chooses to release the game as is, and Nintendo and Sony don't license, would it even be able to run on a console?

Does this functionally force R* to edit content for the sake of ESRB ratings?

 

[John Harker]

I think if this sticks, the worst part ultimately will be the precendent it sets.

The ESRB is going to be under immense pressure now, as this will ultimately be seen as them "caving" in to lobbyist groups on game content. It could really start a bit of a landside.

If they are willing to deem Manhunt 2 content AO, if say, a sequal to Killer 7 was made, and it had the same level of violence and profanity and sex the first one did, you'd hear nothing but these same lobbyists (and more that will follow the precedent set here) and rally with the "You gave Manhunt 2 an AO, how can you give this game only an M? The level of violece, profanity, etc etc.... ESRB are hyopcritcal, dysfunctional, etc... they take money for their ratings... etc etc"

I mean, with enough fanfare after this precedent, an AO title on a major release, could really backfire for gaming in general, especialy of ESRB starts folding under this kind of pressure. GTA4 may be hit with it too, or it may escape it based on the close proximity/previous iterations escaping the rating, but still, its a step in a bad direction and opens bad doors.

 

[PantherLotus]

I'd much rather have a prolonged graphical sex simulator than a prolonged acts of graphical violence simulator.

 

[Terrell]

Oh please, if this game sells in spite of Wal-Mart not carrying it, Wal-Mart will fold faster than a lawn chair on their AO game policy. Do we need to be reminded of that whole debacle they started with Marilyn Manson CDs in the late 90s? Only took them 4 years to eat their words on that, and music doesn't have the benefit of playing in hardware with parental locking features.

 

[StrikerObi]

I mean, with enough fanfare after this precedent, an AO title on a major release, could really backfire for gaming in general, especialy of ESRB starts folding under this kind of pressure. GTA4 may be hit with it too, or it may escape it based on the close proximity/previous iterations escaping the rating, but still, its a step in a bad direction and opens bad doors.

I don't think the ESRB cares about precedent. The MPAA certainly doesn't...

 

[Mariah Carey]

Oh please, if this game sells in spite of Wal-Mart not carrying it, Wal-Mart will fold faster than a lawn chair on their AO game policy. Do we need to be reminded of that whole debacle they started with Marilyn Manson CDs in the late 90s? Only took them 4 years to eat their words on that, and music doesn't have the benefit of playing in hardware with parental locking features.

Wal-Mart doesn't sell CDs that have parental advisory warnings despite the fact that they sell well elsewhere.

 

[John Harker]

I don't think the ESRB cares about precedent. The MPAA certainly doesn't...

No, but lobbylists and lawmakers certainly do.

 

[Segata Sanshiro]

Wal-mart still doesn't sell Maxim magazine. I hear that poor rag's going under.

 

[Brandon F]

I just traded in two Wii games to pay this off in full. (Gamestop doing a trade 2 wii games for 1 free wii game deal)

I hope it delivers!

 

[Oldschoolgamer]

Conspiracy theory: I wonder if they created two games: a normal game and an extra-super violent version. Then they have the super-violent one reviewed and banned . . . . hype galore. Then they hand over the normal version to get an 'M' rating.

I would not doubt this at all. I truly believe that they would do something like this, to get all of the hype in the world.

 

[FitzOfRage]

Oh please, if this game sells in spite of Wal-Mart not carrying it, Wal-Mart will fold faster than a lawn chair on their AO game policy. Do we need to be reminded of that whole debacle they started with Marilyn Manson CDs in the late 90s? Only took them 4 years to eat their words on that, and music doesn't have the benefit of playing in hardware with parental locking features.

I think that went the other way. Wal Mart wouldn't carry his albums because he didn't provide censored versions. If his albums continue to lose the selling power they had in the late 90s, more than likely he'll be more and more inclined to play by whatever restrictions Wal Mart imposes.

It's a moot point anyway, because Take 2 isn't going to release an AO game. But "Manhunt 2 Rated Mature by ESRB" doesn't really garner much attention...

 

[perfectchaos007]

I just traded in two Wii games to pay this off in full. (Gamestop doing a trade 2 wii games for 1 free wii game deal)

I hope it delivers!

Nah, a 6 month delay is all but confirmed. They have no choice but to clean it up. Nintendo doesn't licence AO games. Its in their policy. Most companies are too stubborn to change policys.

 

[alr1ght]

so is an ESRB rating necessary to get licensed on any console?

 

[TurtleSnatcher]

They will change the content.. They have too..

They have spent far too much money on marketing already for the game

 

[soundwave05]

I've said it before -- why don't they just release an AO version and a M-rated version and let the retailers decide which one they want to carry (or both)?

This is done with DVDs that ship with a theaterical cut and then an unrated director's cut all the time and retailers have no problem stocking those.

If Wal-Mart and Toys R' Us don't want to carry AO rated games, that's their right as a retailer, but I'd be willing to bet that EB and maybe even Best Buy/Circuit City would carry this.

 

[Mandoric]

Right there is the problem with the ESRB. "M" Rated is an absolute joke and everyone knows it.

You see the industry kick, bite, claw, and cry everytime someone tries to give M-Ratings any sort of teeth (such as penalties against retailers who sell them to minors) precisely because they know that a significant portion of the audience for these games is underage.

It's Joe Camel all over again.

So the AO rating, as I see it, is nothing more than a way for the industry to stop the whole house of cards from tumbling down. It's the invisible line in the sand which they know, if crossed, would light the match that would explode the bullshit and lies of a completely farsical ratings system that's as open and exploitable as they can possibly manage to keep it.

It's a way of seperating out the content that is so graphic, so extreme, that no one could possibly be in favor of allowing children access to, and as such, it gets austracized and punished to set an example for others that may follow.

Because if a game like Manhunt 2 was unleashed into the current M-Rated environment, children across the country would be playing it within days, and suddenly everyone would realize exactly how hypocritical this entire industry's feeble attempts at self-regulation have become. The ESRB would be doing nothing more than signing it's own extinction.

It's the same with film, though, as noted several times---the gap between R and NC-17, and M and AO, is basically that the first is a sop to the moral minority willing to waste everyone's money every couple years trying to legislate their views, and is only enforced occasionally to save everyone time in court, while the second represents a bar for what the actual average person will balk at enough for the industry wanting to completely disassociate itself.

In a world (everywhere's at fault, too; Europe where you can't even kill Nazis and for the longest while the word 'ninja' and their implements were banned, Japan where a female character being struck in FMV or cutscene is the difference of a letter grade in rating for several Final Fantasy games, and of course the US) so overreactionary to the potentials of game content that a Sega CD-style FMV game walking down any town's main street at midday would be an automatic Teen, there's no real way to deal with it rather than having a standard to shut the idiots up and then a general handwashing consensus.

I don't expect Manhunt 2 to actually release AO simply because it's a sequel and somewhat high-budget, but if it somehow did and precipitated a cluster****, the resulting scandal would ultimately amount to nothing.

 

[Terrell]

I don't believe that is true at all. I've almost always found most M rated games to be more consistently violent than their R-rated movie cousins, and until recently got away with it because video games aren't as realistic. And yes, blood and a few f-bombs will garner a movie an almost automatic R-rating.

Ummmm, Wal-Mart sold his 2003 album, The Golden Age of Grotesque, so yeah... and I see Eminem and 50 Cent on Wal-Mart shelves here all the time, so yeah, they've knocked that off, hence why I brought it up as a parallel. Wal-Mart will make a huge f'ing stink and then pretend it never happened when they want your spending money again.

 

[Gattsu25]

Ummmm, Wal-Mart sold his 2003 album, The Golden Age of Grotesque, so yeah... and I see Eminem and 50 Cent on Wal-Mart shelves here all the time, so yeah, they've knocked that off, hence why I brought it up as a parallel. Wal-Mart will make a huge f'ing stink and then pretend it never happened when they want your spending money again.

Don't they, I dunno, sell edited CDs?

 

[FitzOfRage]

Ummmm, Wal-Mart sold his 2003 album, The Golden Age of Grotesque, so yeah... and I see Eminem and 50 Cent on Wal-Mart shelves here all the time, so yeah, they've knocked that off, hence why I brought it up as a parallel. Wal-Mart will make a huge f'ing stink and then pretend it never happened when they want your spending money again.

Again, even with Eminem and 50 Cent, they will only stock censored versions.

 

[apotema]

This is why some companies prefer to relesase games like "Super Colorful Baby Game 24"

Colourful for the UK, so they don't ban it

 

[Terrell]

Don't they, I dunno, sell edited CDs?

I dunno, I got every foul word on my copy of Golden Age, and the 50 Cent discs had the Parental Advisory label on them.

 

[Slavik81]

Uh... what? The ESRB may rate games created in other countries, but those ratings only stick in America... Japan has CERO and Europe has a whole bunch of different ratings boards (hence why Manhunt 2 is being banned in the UK, but only given an restrictive rating here in the states).

No.

The Entertainment Software Rating Board (ESRB) is a self-regulatory organization that applies and enforces ratings, advertising guidelines, and online privacy principles for computer and video games and other entertainment software in the United States and Canada. (source)

 

[Orlics]

Day one for me.

 

[TurtleSnatcher]

I've said it before -- why don't they just release an AO version and a M-rated version and let the retailers decide which one they want to carry (or both)?

This is done with DVDs that ship with a theaterical cut and then an unrated director's cut all the time and retailers have no problem stocking those.

If Wal-Mart and Toys R' Us don't want to carry AO rated games, that's their right as a retailer, but I'd be willing to bet that EB and maybe even Best Buy/Circuit City would carry this.

Best Buy / Circuit City / EB/GS would not carry an AO title.

Guarantee it.

 

[Nuclear Muffin]

I think the ESRB made the right choice. I posted my feelings in the other thread:


According to ESRB, games rated "Adults Only" have content that should only be played by persons 18 years and older. Titles in this category may include prolonged scenes of intense violence and/or graphic sexual content and nudity.

Let's break that down:

- Should only be played by persons 18 years and older.
- Prolonged scenes of intense violence.

Intense Violence is further defined thusly: Graphic and realistic-looking depictions of physical conflict. May involve extreme and/or realistic blood, gore, weapons and depictions of human injury and death

Should people under the age of 18 really be playing Manhunt 2? Are there prolonged scenes of intense violence. I don't know, but judging from the previews I've read, it sure seems likely. From 1up:



That sure sounds like prolonged intense violence to me. This game deserves an adult rating. It should not be banned. It should recieve a correct rating, and the rating should be enforced. Simple.

Other games rated AO: Fahrenheit: Indigo Prophecy Director's Cut: PC CD ROM, Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas, Thrill Kill for PSone, and various Playboy, Leisure Suit Larry and porn games.

Agreed, the ESRB have every right to rate it as AO despite it's implications. The ESRB have done their job properly from the sounds of it. I don't like it myself, but they haven't done anything wrong here. At least it didn't get completely banned like in the UK and Ireland!

 

[SapientWolf]

This is pretty interesting:

"Our concern was that the game contains interactive violence," Cermak says. "Lots of games have body parts flying around -- somebody shoots someone in the head and it blows apart or you shoot an arm or a leg off. They call it 'gibbing.' But our game had 70 different kinds of interrogations and, by moving the joystick, the gamer can literally determine how much pressure to put on the bad guy. I don't think that's ever been done before and we were concerned that the ESRB might find that beyond what is acceptable in an M-rated game."

As it turned out, Cermak was right. The ESRB had rarely before seen such "creative" violence -- heads were decapitated by ceiling fans, people were thrown into woodchippers, bodies were impaled by charging rhinos.

"We saw an early version of the game," says the ESRB's Patricia Vance, "and right away we told Volition that there was going to be a problem." As Cermak had suspected, it was the player control element that tipped the scales and was about to punish his game with an 'AO' rating.

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/hr/search/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1000874859

So the interactivity is likely to be what pushed it over the edge. But how did Mortal Kombat on the Wii get away with interactive fatalities? And what could this mean for future Wii titles?

 

[EphemeralDream]

While it would be nice to play this game with the original vision in mind, I can't imagine any good coming out of Rockstar's rabble-rousing. If it does get into retail as an AO game, would this be the game you want to push the envelope, being that it appeals even further to the "games are murder simulator" style of thinking?

It's very possible this game will carry a heavy message about how horrible real-life violence is but how many people will see it with that message in mind? Not the politicians for sure. I want to play this game myself but I agree that Rockstar/Take Two putting out an AO title right now might be a bad thing for gamers.

 

[Y2Kev]

Wal-mart still doesn't sell Maxim magazine. I hear that poor rag's going under.

Actually, I heard that it is going under. :lol

 

[Slavik81]

Given the way things are going, I think it might be a good idea if the ESRB rebranded 'M' as 'R' and 'AO' as 'NC-17'. That would make it perfectly clear exactly what sort of content should be expected in M and AO titles.

Then again, while the ESRB is an international organization, the MPAA rating system exists only in the United States...

I've been informed that the MPAA has trademarks on the ratings 'R' and 'NC-17', making such suggestions impossible.

...Just wanted to explain why my thoughts would be impossible before somebody else here does.