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[hammysaurusrex]

I'm not a fan of the rewriting of history. I seriously doubt the statue was built as a tribute to slavery and hate.

This ignores that the entire purpose of the monuments was to rewrite history and change the perspective of future generations to remember the Confederacy, not as a group of slave-driving traitors, but as Southern gentlemen fighting for their way of life. Saying that rewriting history again is inherently wrong when that history was intentionally perverted is absurd.

 

[RoyalFool]

No one is going to forget the civil war and slavery, we are still dealing with the after effects in America today.

"Potlical Correctness" shows me where your head is, read up on Jim Crow and the civil rights era. Cause you are clearly not that informed

Cheers, I'll wiki him at lunch. Here in Bristol half the streets are named after folk who got rich off the back of slavery.

 

[Slayven]

Cheers, I'll wiki him at lunch. Here in Bristol half the streets are named after folk who got rich off the back of slavery.

Jesus.......

 

[firehawk12]

As somebody from Germany, we learned how to deal with our past in a good way, I can tell you, that we don't have statues of Hitler or other culprits around. We put the victims and the terrible actions in front, because they are the parts to not forget!

I was thinking about Japan lately because of a Netflix show that came out, and it's interesting that in some way, Japanese nationalist are like the Americans who like the Confederate flag and all the symbols of the civil war. Because they're allowed to hang on to the past and continue to think they got a "raw deal" when they lost to the Allies, they continue to use the past to show their pride and provoke others who might be offended.

The Yasukuni Shrine is perhaps the biggest example - imagine if Germany had a church where you could visit Hitler or Goering's final burial site. Japan is literally just trolling the rest of Asia at that point.

 

[Toxi]

Cheers, I'll wiki him at lunch. Here in Bristol half the streets are named after folk who got rich off the back of slavery.

Oh my God

 

[firehawk12]

Jesus.......

Oh my God

To be fair, there was a time when I thought Jim Crow was a person who enacted all these racist laws. It looks like a name.

 

[Alienfan]

I still don't agree with removing stuff like this. Better to add a plaque explaining the context of the monument along with the modern version of history.

I don't agree with destroying historical items (no matter how bad they are), but I don't see any reason why the statues shouldn't be removed to a deep dark vault somewhere, or alternatively a museum.

 

[AYF 001]

I'm not a fan of the rewriting of history. I seriously doubt the statue was built as a tribute to slavery and hate.

Out of curiosity, how do you feel about Russia and former Iron Curtain countries tearing down the monuments to Stalin and Lenin built during the Cold War? Would you say that they were trying to pretend that they were never occupied, or that Communism never existed?

 

[Slayven]

To be fair, there was a time when I thought Jim Crow was a person who enacted all these racist laws. It looks like a name.

That i could handle, the part that is shocking is he would have no concept of it, yet complain about history being rewritten and political correctness.

 

[IrishNinja]

I still don't agree with removing stuff like this. Better to add a plaque explaining the context of the monument along with the modern version of history.

did you even read the speech in the OP?

I'm not a fan of the rewriting of history. I seriously doubt the statue was built as a tribute to slavery and hate.

those statues were attempting to do just that - read the OP

...it's a shame to see artworks get destroyed for political correctness./QUOTE]

Cheers, I'll wiki him at lunch.

...getthefuckouttahere

 

[Khalifa Jayy]

Cheers, I'll wiki him at lunch. Here in Bristol half the streets are named after folk who got rich off the back of slavery.

...

 

[Shake Appeal]

I don't love Mitch Landrieu, but that is one of the best speeches I've read by an American politician in modern memory.

 

[airmangataosenai]

He really did nail it perfectly. This guy is definitely going places.

 

[Turbo Killer]

"You lost the war, get the fuck over it." That would be my speech. Seriously why do we have monuments to fucking traitors?

 

[LiK]

Holy shit, those lines are amazing. Legendary.

 

[water_wendi]

"You lost the war, get the fuck over it." That would be my speech. Seriously why do we have monuments to fucking traitors?

Because those traitors were left alive with a handshake and an oath. Regardless of whichever side comes out on top of the next civil conflict the victors cannot repeat that mistake if they desire a society with harmony.

 

[Turbo Killer]

Because those traitors were left alive with a handshake and an oath. Regardless of whichever side comes out on top of the next civil conflict the victors cannot repeat that mistake if they desire a society with harmony.

The union let them live that's good enough, no need for statues and monuments. In fact just like how Germany bans the nazi flag the US should ban the confederate flag.

 

[Anoregon]

Cheers, I'll wiki him at lunch..

 

[Shake Appeal]

"You lost the war, get the fuck over it." That would be my speech. Seriously why do we have monuments to fucking traitors?

It's complicated! But the short answer is America has always been (and remains) a white supremacist nation, and it still refuses to fully recognize itself as such.

 

[water_wendi]

The union let them live that's good enough, no need for statues and monuments. In fact just like how Germany bans the nazi flag the US should ban the confederate flag.

i dont understand how anyone can say given how things have shaken out. The Union won the war but lost the peace.

 

[Big Baybee]

I'm not a fan of the rewriting of history. I seriously doubt the statue was built as a tribute to slavery and hate.

Stop talking about things you know nothing about!

 

[Violater]

The union let them live that's good enough, no need for statues and monuments. In fact just like how Germany bans the nazi flag the US should ban the confederate flag.

The US should also ban the nazi flag.

 

[Baron von Loathsome]

Telling it like it is. Trump voters should be pleased at that.

 

[Gattsu25]

Watching the speech now but the CNN clip was great.

Problem with that argument is the idea the status represent the negatives of that time period. They don't in any capacity. Most statues by their very nature deify and memorialize the subject matter. No one looking at those will take away the horrors of slavery, there is no context that makes the "history" tragic. What historical teaching can be gleamed from a statue of a defiant as proud looking Robert E. Lee? What about his statue at any given moment invokes a sense of sorrow over fighting to preserve the right to own people? Imagine a young black child seeing these statues for the first time, in their eyes these people and symbols are of "great" people and events because that's what most statues symbolize. Now you have to explain "oh no these were actually terrible people who owned your ancestors" so…why glorify that?

This argument further loses merit when you realize that the history of that war has largely been rewritten to the point people will argue that slavery had absolutely nothing to do with the war despite the fact we have speeches, declarations of secession from every state literally saying this is a move to preserve slavery and lordship over a group of people.

This argument even further loses any merit when you realize these statues where erected 15+ years after the war BY the Confederates, who need I remind you seceded from the Union because they didn't want to be a part of it. So why honor them by allowing their statues to remain? Because they died fighting for what they believe? With that argument should we not erect statues of Japanese fighter pilots who attacked Pearl Harbor? After all they were fighting for what they believe no? Should Germany erect statues of Hitler and other Nazi soldiers? After all they too fought for what they believed in, should we not have statues of them posing as proud dignified men and women like Lee and Co throughout Germany to "remind" people of their horrors?

There is no way to create monuments that dignify and deify someone but it carry a message to "never forget" that they were against completely. You want to teach people the horrors of that time? You erect statues of men and women being treated as property, their kids taken from them, being burned, lashed, hunted, raped, lynched then you put words explaining the sheer disgust and inhumane treatment of these people. You show black slaves rebelling and killing their masters, you show black soldiers fighting for their freedom. You glorify the oppressed who rose above it not their oppressors who kept their foot on these people's necks.

This honestly isn't a "both sides" or "both views are of equal weight and measure".

Thanks for taking the time to make this amazing post

 

[Vicetrailia]

Nailed it.

 

[Xe4]

Yup. Said as much in the other thread. It's a fantastic speech. Really says why those monuments are harmful and need to no longer be in government spaces.

 

[BlazinSkatinAxel]

The union let them live that's good enough, no need for statues and monuments. In fact just like how Germany bans the nazi flag the US should ban the confederate flag.

They should ended up in prison. The fact that they were left free is why America is in the state that it is in.

 

[Vincent Alexander]

Wow. The text does not do this justice. I am watching now and it is damn good. If anyone hasn't watched yet, please do.

 

[Turbo Killer]

The US should also ban the nazi flag.

Agreed.

 

[Skellig Gra]

My man killed it.

 

[metalslimer]

Cheers, I'll wiki him at lunch. Here in Bristol half the streets are named after folk who got rich off the back of slavery.

Oh my fucking god you know nothing about the history and want to lecture on rewriting it? Get the fuck out of here.

 

[HStallion]

They should put up statues of the true back bone of the Confederacy, the slaves. Now that will let you have a piece of confederate history without idolizing a bunch of rich white traitors who stand for the worst parts of US culture to this very day.

 

[Vincent Alexander]

"Century old wounds are still raw because, you see, they never healed right in the first place."

Amen.

This whole speech is quoteable. Every damn line.

 

[Htown]

Cheers, I'll wiki him at lunch.

 

[5taquitos]

What things does Germany have? I've never been there.

You can visit all the major concentration camps. It's harrowing, heartbreaking, heavy shit.

 

[SJurgenson]

That speech was great.

It's nice seeing such a well-written takedown of the 'Lost Cause' myth. It's a shame that American culture has largely ignored the continued spread of that nonsense. It's the 21st century, and we allow the racists and bigots to use that myth as their shield.

It's frankly disgusting that people claim to be patriots, yet revere actual traitors and their traitorous flag.

 

[ahoyhoy]

Damn good speech.

 

[Fuchsdh]

Problem with that argument is the idea the status represent the negatives of that time period. They don't in any capacity. Most statues by their very nature deify and memorialize the subject matter. No one looking at those will take away the horrors of slavery, there is no context that makes the "history" tragic. What historical teaching can be gleamed from a statue of a defiant as proud looking Robert E. Lee? What about his statue at any given moment invokes a sense of sorrow over fighting to preserve the right to own people? Imagine a young black child seeing these statues for the first time, in their eyes these people and symbols are of "great" people and events because that's what most statues symbolize. Now you have to explain "oh no these were actually terrible people who owned your ancestors" so...why glorify that?

This argument further loses merit when you realize that the history of that war has largely been rewritten to the point people will argue that slavery had absolutely nothing to do with the war despite the fact we have speeches, declarations of secession from every state literally saying this is a move to preserve slavery and lordship over a group of people.

This argument even further loses any merit when you realize these statues where erected 15+ years after the war BY the Confederates, who need I remind you seceded from the Union because they didn't want to be a part of it. So why honor them by allowing their statues to remain? Because they died fighting for what they believe? With that argument should we not erect statues of Japanese fighter pilots who attacked Pearl Harbor? After all they were fighting for what they believe no? Should Germany erect statues of Hitler and other Nazi soldiers? After all they too fought for what they believed in, should we not have statues of them posing as proud dignified men and women like Lee and Co throughout Germany to "remind" people of their horrors?

There is no way to create monuments that dignify and deify someone but it carry a message to "never forget" that they were against completely. You want to teach people the horrors of that time? You erect statues of men and women being treated as property, their kids taken from them, being burned, lashed, hunted, raped, lynched then you put words explaining the sheer disgust and inhumane treatment of these people. You show black slaves rebelling and killing their masters, you show black soldiers fighting for their freedom. You glorify the oppressed who rose above it not their oppressors who kept their foot on these people's necks.

This honestly isn't a "both sides" or "both views are of equal weight and measure".

Except (as far as I know) no one is suggesting erecting monuments to Confederate soldiers now. We're talking about established history.

People are putting up monuments to slavery now. Richmond, VA has Monument Ave, filled with Confederate monuments that are never going to fit in a museum (it also has a really bad statue of Arthur Ashe looking like he's gonna' beat some children, but still, it's a black guy memorialized at the end of a line of Confederates.) It also has erected a monument that recognizes that under a bustling interstate a lot of folks were sold off, died and buried in nameless graves. You can recontextualize history without having to move anything.

The fundamental disconnect we're having here is that people are essentially arguing the monuments as they stand now are the cause of continued racial animosity. An old statue thousands of black people in cities everywhere across the country pass by on their way to work or home isn't traveling through time to oppress them. It's people living now doing that. The past can't hurt us unless we forget it and pretend we're evolved past it, and the iconoclasm proposed by people in this thread feels like that's what they want. There's not any inherent tension between wanting these statues to remain and recognizing that racism hasn't gone away and that, forget the dead, we have people alive today who are suffering in ways large and small.

(As for your final comments on "glorifying the oppressed", that sounds like historical revisionism as well, just of a different stripe than lost cause conspiracies. But then we get into a deeper philosophical question of memorials and their innate distortion of history.)

Landrieu's argument is eloquent, and I see its merit. LA and cities ultimately can decide their own course. I just disagree with his argument.

 

[Spladam]

I salute you Mayor Mitch Landrieu, you give a better name to Louisiana. I'm so thankful for this man and his views. I have three friends who live in New Orleans and he's a breath of fresh air compared to the Mayors they've had before. Now if only he could clean up the Police force and the corruption in that town, he'd be a super hero.

 

[Human Resources]

hope some of ya'll get statues of Trump in the middle of your town

 

[Fancyarcher]

Very good speech. Quite moving, and what he's saying is very much true.

The American way to deal with its past has largely been to ignore it. Many people here still wrestle with the basics of American slavery at all, never mind our civil war and the reason for the conflict. White Americans will regularly jump through any number of hoops to minimize the brutality and destruction the trade and practice brought upon people of color in the Americas, perhaps in an attempt to absolve their forefathers and maintain a "we're the good guys" imagine in their minds. Exceptionalism and all that.

Good on you all for keeping the reality of the past up front and sober.

I actually didn't grow-up with people ignoring the past, in fact I was reminded of slavery a lot during my first 10+ years, and was told about how bad it was, so I don't have the same "American way" as some might, believe it or not. Mind you I may have grown-up during a different time / better city in that regard.

 

[NH Apache]

If you have 23 minutes, watch the whole speech. The delivery is great as well.

He'll be in a few debates for 2020 president run for sure.

The justification for a man's daughter part is the best. Can you explain to a little black girl who this is and why we have a monument to him? Can you?

Amazing.

 

[Vincent Alexander]

Except (as far as I know) no one is suggesting erecting monuments to Confederate soldiers now. We're talking about established history.

People are putting up monuments to slavery now. Richmond, VA has Monument Ave, filled with Confederate monuments that are never going to fit in a museum (it also has a really bad statue of Arthur Ashe looking like he's gonna' beat some children, but still, it's a black guy memorialized at the end of a line of Confederates.) It also has erected a monument that recognizes that under a bustling interstate a lot of folks were sold off, died and buried in nameless graves. You can recontextualize history without having to move anything.

The fundamental disconnect we're having here is that people are essentially arguing the monuments as they stand now are the cause of continued racial animosity. An old statue thousands of black people in cities everywhere across the country pass by on their way to work or home isn't traveling through time to oppress them. It's people living now doing that. The past can't hurt us unless we forget it and pretend we're evolved past it, and the iconoclasm proposed by people in this thread feels like that's what they want. There's not any inherent tension between wanting these statues to remain and recognizing that racism hasn't gone away and that, forget the dead, we have people alive today who are suffering in ways large and small.

(As for your final comments on "glorifying the oppressed", that sounds like historical revisionism as well, just of a different stripe than lost cause conspiracies. But then we get into a deeper philosophical question of memorials and their innate distortion of history.)

Landrieu's argument is eloquent, and I see its merit. LA and cities ultimately can decide their own course. I just disagree with his argument.

Just finished the speech, and every thing you write here he tackled in his speech. Not just eloquently, but thoroughly.

 

[Gattsu25]

Very good speech. Quite moving, and what he's saying is very much true.



I actually didn't grow-up with people ignoring the past, in fact I was reminded of slavery a lot during my first 10+ years, and was told about how bad it was, so I don't have the same "American way" as some might, believe it or not. Mind you I may have grown-up during a different time / better city in that regard.

You did.

I got both ends of it.

In New York the schools covered slavery and the Civil War as a portion of American History. During the war they covered both American/Union and confederate generals.

In Florida the first public school I went to used a textbook that didn't mention slavery once and only covered confederate generals during the civil war (three subjects (the american revolution, the civil war from the confederates perspectve, and the reagan presidency) made up the majority of that book). I complained and the teacher, who was a civil war history buff, agreed. He spent the entire remainder of the semester deep diving into slavery and the civil war.

The education you get is entirely dependent on your school board and what they prioritized.

 

[Lmo911]

I'm not a fan of the rewriting of history. I seriously doubt the statue was built as a tribute to slavery and hate.

Let's get this out of the way...

Hi! I'm from the south!

Yes, these statues were erected as a tribute to slavery and hate. You will hear white people down here to this day lament why black people aren't in the fields because they were happier back then. It's a century's long propaganda campaign to legitimize what the confederacy did.

Whatever thinly veiled excuse for these things is washed away when a mob of torch bearing nazis show up to defend them chanting the n-word.

It's been long enough, they should go.

 

[Fuchsdh]

Just finished the speech, and every thing you write here he tackled in his speech. Not just eloquently, but thoroughly.

...I know. I watched it too. But that doesn't change my argument, I disagree with his stance on it.

The education you get is entirely dependent on your school board and what they prioritized.

This is basically the US education system in a nutshell. In my hometown in Virginia we covered a lot, including a lot more time on the Virginia-specific stuff like Turner's Rebellion and Harper's Ferry. But it was a well-educated, rich part of the state.

 

[Khalifa Jayy]

Let's get this out of the way...

Hi! I'm from the south!

Yes, these statues were erected as a tribute to slavery and hate. You will hear white people down here to this day lament why black people aren't in the fields because they were happier back then. It's a century's long propaganda campaign to legitimize what the confederacy did.

Whatever thinly veiled excuse for these things is washed away when a mob of torch bearing nazis show up to defend them chanting the n-word.

It's been long enough, they should go.

Boom.

 

[Sho_Nuff82]

I think it's backwards to frame this as erasing or rewriting history.

The deification of traitors, racists, and slave-drivers into symbols of innocent, carefree, Southern Spirit was the rewrite. This is correcting the record.

 

[PeskyToaster]

Because those traitors were left alive with a handshake and an oath. Regardless of whichever side comes out on top of the next civil conflict the victors cannot repeat that mistake if they desire a society with harmony.

Just mass executions? A little on the brutal side. The premature end of Reconstruction and Lincoln's death were probably the biggest reasons why Confederate remnants were able to just slip back into power. De-nazification wasn't all flowers and hand-holding either. The post war trials got the higher ups but you had a a significant portion of the government, or even just the general population, complicit if not active participants in killing factories. Many people reaped significant benefits from seized property and stolen wealth. There have been a few controversies with how the post-war governments, East and West Germany, remembered and memorialized the victims of the conflict. Usually it was in regards to the victims of the Allied bombing campaigns versus people persecuted and killed by the Nazis. Denazification definitely seems more successful than "de-conferderation" though I think distance (in time) has a little to do with it at this point. They probably shouldn't have allowed statues and memorials to be created which just allowed people to keep the idea of the Confederate South alive and propagate the Lost Cause shit. I think if the Reconstruction era had lasted longer, it would have allowed positive forces to fill in the power vacuum and establish a hardier structure that couldn't be so easily taken back by former Confederates. You don't have to just execute them all though.

I think it's backwards to frame this as erasing or rewriting history.

The deification of traitors, racists, and slave-drivers into symbols of innocent, carefree, Southern Spirit was the rewrite. This is correcting the record.

Allowing the Lost Cause beliefs to be codified in memorials, statues, and parades was a huge misstep by the government at the time.


If you want to see an example of the complete opposite of a Reconstruction type effort look at post-WWI Germany rather than post-WW2 Germany. While it's not exactly the same as recovering from a civil war, you can see what can flourish in a post-war environment if a significant and long-term effort isn't put forth towards rebuilding a former foe. It's a pretty modern phenomenon probably due to the advent of total war and the massive casualties incurred by the participants.

 

[Atomic Playboy]

I think it's backwards to frame this as erasing or rewriting history.

The deification of traitors, racists, and slave-drivers into symbols of innocent, carefree, Southern Spirit was the rewrite. This is correcting the record.

Yeah, it's a weird argument to make that we should hang on to statues of people who did terrible things because they're historic. I mean, I wouldn't put up a statue of Lee Harvey Oswald standing proud just because he's a historic figure. That doesn't mean I don't think people should learn about Lee Harvey Oswald, just not presented framed as a hero with zero context. You can't have a statue that looks like this:

and expect people to naturally assume "that's one of history's villains." The context of literally putting an idol on a pedestal has never been used to signify someone we should view as bad; adding a plaque saying "some people were against the Civil War" doesn't change that.