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Mormon/Ex-Mormon Thread of 3 hour blocks and salvation flowcharts
- Thread starter ronito
- Start date
Yeah, when the canon was being DETERMINED. The Gospels weren't being written in a day by one person, they were written over time by many different people. Since the canon was set in stone, it hasn't changed, reinterpretations notwithstanding since that's essentially theology right there. The Greek and Hebrew remain the same.Patryn said:
Willy105 said:
No official view. My understanding is that it's generally favorable. 2 Missionaries head to Africa where conditions are shit. They're faced with the populace dying from starvation, warlords killing people, rape, female genital mutilation, you know that horrific stuff you always see about Africa. They try to convert people to mormonism and fail. One of the missionaries doesn't know anything about the church so he just starts making a bunch of random stuff up to convince them. The local population then gets baptized, bands together, and overthrows the evil warlord.
The moral being that even if you believe in a bunch of random stupid shit anything that makes the community work together for something truly good can't be all bad.
It's a fresh athiest's view of religion in a world where more people are interpreting athiesm as being purely anti-theist.
BakedPigeon
Banned
Non Mormon here stuck in a very small Mormon town. Pretty much know the ins and outs of their culture but I do have a question. What gives Mormons the right to baptize someone after they are DEAD without their permission? Why do they do it?
bluemax said:
Jeff-DSA said:
I read Under the Banner of Heaven and that was my first in depth introduction to Mormonism. I don't recall if I had even realized that the Mormon church and church of the LDS were same before then, lol. I picked up Under the Banner of Heaven because the author said it wasn't just about Mormons, it's supposed to be about faith and extremism. It's worth reading just for his account of how the mainstream repudiation of polygamy affected the church.Dresden said:
Shalashaska
Member
Baptizing someone doesn't mean they automatically become a Mormon and 99% of the time, the works is done by relatives to that individual.BakedPigeon said:
BakedPigeon
Banned
Shalashaska said:
I see. I just remember my friends heading down to the Temple and doing baptism for the dead. I assumed none of the people they baptized were their relatives.
Shalashaska
Member
Actually, I should clarify that does happen. If the person doing the family research work can't perform the work themselves (because a lot of them tend to be older individuals or if they don't have living family members that can go to the temple), they can submit the names to the temple to have the work done by others. But again, the research/submitting and 'authorization' (if you want to call it that) are done by a person related to that individual's name being submitted.BakedPigeon said:
BakedPigeon
Banned
Shalashaska said:
Thanks for clarifying that, its always rattled my brain.
Dude Abides
Banned
doomed1 said:
I would expect one document written by one person to be more authoritative than a hodgepodge of texts that have been copied and recopied, and arbitrarily selected for inclusion in a canon.
doomed1 said:
Sure, but churches also selectively follow or give validity to what was included in the Bible as well. The Bible tells very clearly of an apostasy/falling away that would take place. It seems that you'd not want to claim that you're the original church if supposedly that church was to fall into apostasy.
I am a Mormon living in Utah County.
I grew up in the church then kinda strayed away when I was about 15. I met my wife and decided to give it another shot. I was pretty active for about 5 years then kinda strayed away yet again.
I really have no problems with the church on most things and I really think it gets a bad rap. I really like the values that they teach. Sometimes I think they go to far, but mostly that's the people involved and not the religion itself.
Most of the people I live by are Mormon and I have become good friends with some of them. Believe me there are some people I avoid because they think they are perfect and can do no wrong, but I think you get that in all walks of life.
I grew up in the church then kinda strayed away when I was about 15. I met my wife and decided to give it another shot. I was pretty active for about 5 years then kinda strayed away yet again.
I really have no problems with the church on most things and I really think it gets a bad rap. I really like the values that they teach. Sometimes I think they go to far, but mostly that's the people involved and not the religion itself.
Most of the people I live by are Mormon and I have become good friends with some of them. Believe me there are some people I avoid because they think they are perfect and can do no wrong, but I think you get that in all walks of life.
So
1. Mormons have legitimate power to do vicarious religious rituals for dead people, and they are ascribed this power by God himself, this being the case it's a damned good thing they're doing this so people can receive everything they need to reach salvation/exaltation.
2. Mormons do not have legitimate power to effect religious rituals by God so he just laughs and shakes his head.
3. Mormons have devil power and are currently cursing your ancestors to be mormons in the afterlife. God finds this hilarious and lets it go.
4. There is no God and it doesn't matter one way or the other, but it gives old mormons something to do other than join the tea party, so we should probably let it slide.
1. Mormons have legitimate power to do vicarious religious rituals for dead people, and they are ascribed this power by God himself, this being the case it's a damned good thing they're doing this so people can receive everything they need to reach salvation/exaltation.
2. Mormons do not have legitimate power to effect religious rituals by God so he just laughs and shakes his head.
3. Mormons have devil power and are currently cursing your ancestors to be mormons in the afterlife. God finds this hilarious and lets it go.
4. There is no God and it doesn't matter one way or the other, but it gives old mormons something to do other than join the tea party, so we should probably let it slide.
tubgirlsplumber
Banned
I have a friend who is LDS, but she doesn't talk about it much, even when I ask her about it. I'm not sure she believes it all, but she does the whole not drinking stuff and I have never heard her swear (I really want to hear her swear!)
So I know very little about this, but from what I have skimmed, wasn't Jesus one of many beings who were of the same calibre? If so, why is he in the top tier of Gods and not any of the other guys?
One thing that really puzzles me about Religions (not just CoLDS), is why you have to worship? Worshipping is pretty much idolising, I guess praying is the same.
I mean, say I was Jesus, the last thing I would want is people praying at me for three hours when they could be out doing actual constructive things like working in a soup kitchen or picking up litter.
I know that sounds sarcastic, but why do you need to pray? For respect? Live you life being good is doing that. Need help with a problem? That's cheating, it's like your pulling a card and saying, I'm down on my luck, but hey I'm in the special club, so help a bro out.
The whole temples and robes and all this 'stuff' in most religions seems ridiculous. - The most refreshing thing that I've seen in a place of worship, was when I visited the holy land (Japan ;o) ) and went into a Shinto shrine, all they had on display was a simple piece of rope.
That really speaks volumes, you go there, you meditate and you don't have to kiss up to a painting or a statue, or recite chants and verses that make it feel like you need those and need some deity to get you into that state of mind.
Ok, I've gone off on a tangent a bit.
So I know very little about this, but from what I have skimmed, wasn't Jesus one of many beings who were of the same calibre? If so, why is he in the top tier of Gods and not any of the other guys?
One thing that really puzzles me about Religions (not just CoLDS), is why you have to worship? Worshipping is pretty much idolising, I guess praying is the same.
I mean, say I was Jesus, the last thing I would want is people praying at me for three hours when they could be out doing actual constructive things like working in a soup kitchen or picking up litter.
I know that sounds sarcastic, but why do you need to pray? For respect? Live you life being good is doing that. Need help with a problem? That's cheating, it's like your pulling a card and saying, I'm down on my luck, but hey I'm in the special club, so help a bro out.
The whole temples and robes and all this 'stuff' in most religions seems ridiculous. - The most refreshing thing that I've seen in a place of worship, was when I visited the holy land (Japan ;o) ) and went into a Shinto shrine, all they had on display was a simple piece of rope.
That really speaks volumes, you go there, you meditate and you don't have to kiss up to a painting or a statue, or recite chants and verses that make it feel like you need those and need some deity to get you into that state of mind.
Ok, I've gone off on a tangent a bit.
tubgirlsplumber said:
When we do something unique or important to us we have a tendency to dress up. Weddings, graduations, oktoberfest, bdsm clubs, larping, st patrick's day, etc...
We're all little girls at heart who can't wait to dress up and feel more important than we really are.
Anyway, Shintoism has plenty of rituals and religious vestments for the priests.
tubgirlsplumber said:
Most of your complaints are addressed in Mormonism, actually. First of all, about prayer, we believe it's actual communication with God. We believe that you can receive personal revelation, receive blessings for yourself or others, and have a personal relationship with God. It's not just repetition of words, as LDS prayers are not written prayers. Only ordinances are prayers that are recited.
Now, prayer is not all that's required. The LDS church teaches that faith requires work to be active, so things like service and helping others is a necessary part of salvation for Mormons. You can't just believe and pray your way through life, you have to act and provide good works. We believe that you worship God through service, not just through reciting prayers and performing random rituals. Ordinances are important, but nobody is securing any spot in the Celestial Kindgom without good works.
BakedPigeon
Banned
The Patriarchal Blessing...............
My friend let me read hers because she is no longer active/cares and it kinda just sounded generic. Generic in the sense that all it was talking about is "there is a very meaningful life to be lived if you choose to follow the right path" type generic.
Do you guys still keep your Patriarchal Blessing in mind during your day to day activities?
My friend let me read hers because she is no longer active/cares and it kinda just sounded generic. Generic in the sense that all it was talking about is "there is a very meaningful life to be lived if you choose to follow the right path" type generic.
Do you guys still keep your Patriarchal Blessing in mind during your day to day activities?
hydragonwarrior
Member
CJUNDERGROUND said:
So so true.
BakedPigeon
Banned
hydragonwarrior said:
Oh, they can be broken down I promise you that.
JetBlackPanda
Member
BakedPigeon said:
day to day?? no.. I have read it during difficult times etc. most saints turn to the scriptures for day to day inspiration.
BakedPigeon said:
I refer to mine from time to time. Mine has some very specific things in it, but the real point of it is to be a source of strength and inspiration, not to outline your life for you. That wouldn't be of any help because it would diminish challenges that come your way. I did receive a VERY specific warning in mine, and it's been a valuable one several times in my life. My mother also has a very, very specific line in hers that has mattered in our lives.
tubgirlsplumber
Banned
Yoritomo said:
Jeff-DSA said:
Thanks guys, I wasn't taking the pee either, I am generally fascinated by Religions, but, well I am too lazy to research about them and my brain (ego?) stops me from believing too much in anything Religious.
Yoritomo;
I guess you're right about wanting to dress up for stuff, I'm not that keen on dress codes, but sometimes I feel the need to smart it up a bit when the circumstances require it, but robes and all the paraphernalia seems a bit OTT.
As for Shintoism, your right about them having their own ceremonies, I just thought the bare piece of rope was pretty cool as a symbol of a lack of any symbolism.
Jeff-DSA;
About prayer being a means of communication with God, well I see the distinction, but whatever way you slice it, you are having a conversation with a possibly imaginary deity, so getting feedback may well be proof that you have finally lost it.
As for Good works - actions over prayers, that's fair enough, but the main thing that make a LDS man is his 2 year mission, and the focus is to spread the word and get converts. What good work is that really, if all you are doing is trying to get people to convert to your particular belief system? There is nothing tangible with that, you're just bolstering sales figures for Team LDS.
During that time, fair enough if you build a damn in the desert or something, but it's means to an end which kinda takes the shine off things.
JetBlackPanda
Member
bluemax said:
Ouch
tubgirlsplumber said:
I don't think you understand, exactly. You can't just call your mission your life's service and get away with it. LDS theology teaches that life is a 2 way path to or away from God. There's no standing idle on the path. Either you're abundant in good works and moving toward God or else you're moving away from God. Service is one of the best ways to be sure you're moving on that path the right direction. You can go to church every week, abstain from sinful activities, and work to not offend anybody, but if you don't do any service, it's hollow and of little benefit spiritually.
Many church activities are focused around service. The welfare arm of the LDS church is enormous. Even missionaries on a full time mission have to do service that takes away from proselytizing. While on my mission I volunteered in hospitals, helped older people (members or not) with needs around their homes, taught English lessons to students and policemen, dug trenches for area farmers, help people repair their homes during the heavy rain season, and helped an Evangelical church repaint their building. It wasn't all just knocking doors and stopping people in the street.
Edit: I think I'm done with the thread, however. Things are taking a turn where it's just a "ANSWER ME THIS, MORMON!" thread now. Fine at first, but it's exhausting when that's all it is. Might pop in once in a while, but there's too many people who think they know what the church is based on an article or two they've read.
tubgirlsplumber said:
There are two sides to most anything, especially with the concept of faith and works, prayer and service. Too much of one side of things, (all prayer, no effort) diminishes the whole spiritual aspect of any faith based effort, especially a two year mission. If I had been what you assume missionaries do, or are, as mindless conversion bots, that certainly would highlight your point. But like so many groups of any affiliation, religious or otherwise, you have a good example and you're going to have a bad one. I recall a sunny day in Bend OR, where I served where me and my companion decided we were just going to do some yard work for a worthy soul. There we were, white shirts and ties, gathering leaves and mowing the lawn, trimming the hedges. People stopped and offered thanks and cold drinks all day. Perhaps it was because we stuck out, but people knew we were out there helping someone, and it brightened their day, regardless of what we represented. For a moment, the dividing lines melted away between the labels we judged each other with and we were able to see each other as people. It has always stuck with me, and it's kept me available to all if I can help it, regardless of the who and what the situation is. I hope we can try to keep that idea in mind when we veer into scoffing at another's experience, or faith, or lack thereof.
It was just one afternoon, of the countless examples of my experience there, making friends, learning a lot about myself and people and seeing what it takes to change into something more than many/I believed they/I could become.
I've seen people who took what we taught and evolved into a better person, more caring, more aware of other people, and I've seen people who were incredibly wonderful people who had no belief in God whatsoever, but were already doing many of the things we taught, and I've seen the exact opposite on both ends. Made me realize, so much of our understanding of what faith is, no matter the person, or where they come from, comes from our experiences how we treat each other. Faith isn't believing in whatever we'd like, whether its a giant flying noodle monster or a perfect man in the sky who loves us and wants us to learn to be like him, it's about believing in that thing that we find, without seeing or understanding beforehand, that actually ends up enlarging our understanding instead of diminishing it.
Whatever it is, whether it's something you believe, or don't believe, and you're finding it's making you into a better person, hold to it, I'm sure we'll see eye to eye eventually.
Around the course of a hundred years. John's Gospel, specifically a theology and more allegorical, being the last. Also, you have to understand that this is all based specifically on ORAL communication of many first and second hand witnesses before being written down. Mormonism started with a WRITTEN revelation DIRECTLY from God to ONE man. Of course their scripture writing process was shorter. It STARTED with writing.Patryn said:
You mean just like the rest of the bible? Sometimes authors weren't even writing in the same century. Seriously, it's the same for every other book in the OT. The Book of Mormon is unique in this regard. And canonical selection is hardly arbitrary. The works chosen for the NT were all carefully selected from various communities to be the most accurate literally (most gospels that weren't the 4 selected were much older), the clearest and least conflicting, and the most representative of a loving, indivisible God. Plenty of people would basically teach Jesus was a douche, but those were much later on from the earliest accounts.Dude Abides said:
Aside from a mild distrust of Revelations according to John (I know, I know, HERESY! and all), that "falling away" is so vague, not only would the Mormon Church fall under such a description, defining something as the "original" church two thousand years after Jesus' death is so inherently moronic that it starts to resemble Scientology. Times change, and religion must be flexible enough to change with them. This is why theology exists. As we become more aware of ourselves and build on this, we are able to apply this to our understanding of the imperfect way in which God's word is presented us. This is the issue with the Book of Mormon from a theological perspective, that because it was granted us PERFECTLY by God, there's really no theological justification for reinterpretation or alternate understanding, so if you want to talk about apostasy, are YOU following Joseph Smith's original edition of the Book of Mormon to the tee? You see, if you want to accuse me of false following, you should at least look at your own theological progression.Jeff-DSA said:
Ultimately, I do approve of Mormonism, despite some... esoteric trappings (racism, arrogance of exclusive revelation, practices of ostracizing), but while I feel that the reasons for believing are conflicting, and the mechanics questionable, the ultimate reality is that Mormons are encouraged to be actively nice, and it often works, and I can't knock that. Basically, my opinion on the matter is: Bad idea, FANTASTIC execution.
JetBlackPanda
Member
General Conference weekend of the 1st to the 3rd! Semi annual enjoy church in your pajamas time.
Mr.Squirrel
Tom
How accurate is this video (you knew it was coming)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7q6brMrFw0E&feature=youtube_gdata_player
Also do Mormons believe being black is a curse/sin/negative of some sort? Was that ever the case? Is that still preached or believed?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7q6brMrFw0E&feature=youtube_gdata_player
Also do Mormons believe being black is a curse/sin/negative of some sort? Was that ever the case? Is that still preached or believed?
For those wondering about the endowment ceremony, you can find whole transcripts of the script online. Many of them include the various changes made to it over the years (like removing the blood oath).
My experience with Mormons has been mixed. They can be nice people, but I find some of the doctrine revolting.
My experience with Mormons has been mixed. They can be nice people, but I find some of the doctrine revolting.
Instigator
Banned
Tron 2.0 said:
I still don't understand the "secrecy" around it or the (ex) members' relunctance to talk about it. Maybe shedding some light on that would be helpful rather than sharing sordid details about the ceremony.
Sickboy007
Member
Do Mormons still wear the garments night and day?
Sanjay said:
The characters in Big Love are FLDS, I believe. Not LDS. Basically, they're from an off-shoot branch of Mormonism, and not true Mormons.
So, no, it's not a good representation of Mormons.
JetBlackPanda said:
Growing up, in the days before Conference showed up on television, my Mom never wanted to deal with screaming kids for how long Conference was. So those became the weeks that we'd skip church (naturally, she'd read all the talks in the next month's Ensign). Even as we got older, the tradition stayed. Especially once it started airing on TV, at which point my Mom would watch, and the rest of us could do whatever.
I loved conference weeks. Chance to sleep in!
Yeah, my family was never the best Mormons.
JetBlackPanda
Member
JetBlackPanda said:
Maybe I should have been more clear.. Conference = Pajamas = sleep through most of the sessions.. haha
JetBlackPanda
Member
Sickboy007 said:
Yes but they are no different then a pair of boxer shorts and a under shirt.. however they do have markings that make them sacred to the faith.
edit: also you have many pairs and you change them every day just like underwear.
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