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[Commodore]

are mormons allowed to gamble?

We can, but are warned against its dangers often.

 

[ronito]

I don't believe that mormon can gamble any more than look at porn.


I have a question for the still practicing mormons out there.
So the church's publishing arm, Deseret Book, not only stopped printing new copies of the book Mormon Doctrine but actually pulled the existing copies off the shelf.
http://connect2utah.com/news-story?nxd_id=89525

They claim it's about poor sales. But two things are wrong with that.
1. Most Mormon bookstores can't keep the book stocked it's that popular.
2. Even if it was selling poorly why then pull the rest of inventory to not sell?

If you've forgotten what it looks like, it looks like this.

Now to me this was like another set of scriptures. Certainly in BYU it was required reading and it was largely considered to be the definition of modern mormon doctrine. That being said, some of the most embarassing quotes on mormon doctrine (like God and Mary having physical sex, the less valiant =dark skinned people, the catholic church being the great and abominable church, and others) came from the first editions of this book. So obviously the church probably wants to just take it out of circulation to silence any possible criticism. So the question that gets raised by me is: If mormons no longer believe in the generally accepted definition of mormon doctrines, what then DO mormons believe?

I've been saying for years now that the church is having a crisis of belief and this is another sign of it. I've tried to talk with my practicing mormon friends and they just either say "Oh I didn't know." or "Oh, it's not that important."

To me it's pretty freakin' important. I know that one of the things that's great about the LDS church is that it can change. But the base is supposed to stay the same and change slowly. But sometimes it looks like the church is changing as fast as a desperately lonely pre-teen girl.

 

[btkadams]

We can, but are warned against its dangers often.

what do you mean by dangers? that it leads to some sort of harm in terms of your salvation or just because you can lose all your money and destroy your life in an economical respect?

 

[Jeff-DSA]

To me it's pretty freakin' important. I know that one of the things that's great about the LDS church is that it can change. But the base is supposed to stay the same and change slowly. But sometimes it looks like the church is changing as fast as a desperately lonely pre-teen girl.

Mormon Doctrine has been considered mostly McConkie's personal opinions based on his personal studies since before I went on my mission (July 2000). We were told that it was a good reference book, but were told not to teach from it or take everything as it being an official church text. Heck, hasn't there been a disclaimer in the front saying that it's not official church doctrine for about 2 decades now?

what do you mean by dangers? that it leads to some sort of harm in terms of your salvation or just because you can lose all your money and destroy your life in an economical respect?

It's addictive behavior that can put you at risk. Also, it's not the most honest way to make a living. We're encouraged to avoid it because it's both dangerous on an addictive level and morally weak.

 

[Ecce]

Mormon Doctrine has been considered mostly McConkie's personal opinions based on his personal studies since before I went on my mission (July 2000). We were told that it was a good reference book, but were told not to teach from it or take everything as it being an official church text. Heck, hasn't there been a disclaimer in the front saying that it's not official church doctrine for about 2 decades now?

This. From what I understand there have been several edits and retractions to remove some of his more "out there" opinions. I'm more of a "hold fast to the trunk" sort of member (faith, repentance, atonement, etc.) rather than venturing in depth into the "branches" of the gospel, so I have never personally read it.

 

[AlteredBeast]

Mormon Doctrine to me has always been an interesting read, but never a firm and 100% binding of the truth of the gospel.

Joseph Smith believed that there were men on the moon, after all.

 

[Barrett2]

I lost interest in McConkie on the mission after reading all four of those "Mortal Messiah" books, and I realized he was basically just cribbing from that one influential New Testament compendium... Can't remember the name right now, though.

Anyways, I saw the Book of Mormon Broadway musical on Tuesday.

Holy damn, that was the funniest thing I have seen in a long time. It is the story of two missionaries called to serve in the Uganda mission, and the tragic hilarity that ensues. It was incredible. The musical numbers were great, the story was interesting, heartwarming, and hilarious.

Some highlights:

- Musical number that takes place in "spooky Mormon Hell," including an anthropomorphic Starbucks cup that pours coffee down one of the missionaries throat against his will, while Jeffrey Dahmer, Hitler, and Johnnie Cochran dance in the background

- The district leader is a closeted gay kid who has a hilarious song about how part of being a Mormon is taking those things that don't make sense and "shutting off the lightswitch in your mind." Incredible song.

- The loser missionary finally gains confidence and wins converts when he starts making up random bullshit in the Book of Mormon, and creates this insane narrative about Ewoks dancing with the Nephites, Moroni coming down from the Death Star, Lamanites curing their AIDS by having sex with frogs, Lamanites being sent to Mordor, etc..

- The "go getter" missionary has a mental breakdown upon arriving in Africa and realizing nobody cares about boring Book of Mormon stories because they are all dying of AIDS and genocide. His descent into partial madness is incredible, including a song about how all he wanted in life was to go on a mission to a clean, happy city like Orlando.

- The dude who played Joseph Smith looked and sounded *exactly* like he does in every LDS movie. The song Joseph Smith and Brigham Young sang was fantastic.

Overall, best Broadway Show I have seen. I was hoarse from laughing so much, crowd gave a wild standing ovation at the end.

A+++

 

[Ecce]

Anyways, I saw the Book of Mormon Broadway musical on Tuesday.

Holy damn, that was the funniest thing I have seen in a long time. It is the story of two missionaries called to serve in the Uganda mission, and the tragic hilarity that ensues. It was incredible. The musical numbers were great, the story was interesting, heartwarming, and hilarious.

lol. I want to see this so bad. I am slowly trying to convince my wife that it isn't blasphemous just because it is set with an LDS background.

- The "go getter" missionary has a mental breakdown upon arriving in Africa and realizing nobody cares about boring Book of Mormon stories because they are all dying of AIDS and genocide. His descent into partial madness is incredible, including a song about how all he wanted in life was to go on a mission to a clean, happy city like Orlando.

Florida is the last place I wanted to serve my mission. Too many old people.

 

[Barrett2]

lol. I want to see this so bad. I am slowly trying to convince my wife that it isn't blasphemous just because it is set with an LDS background.



Florida is the last place I wanted to serve my mission. Too many old people.

It's the same tone as the South Park episodes. They have a few extremely gross / harsh jokes, but the core message is actually quite heartwarming. Basically, that even if the Mormon history or beliefs are insane, it doesn't matter, because it gives people hope, and that's what matters.

 

[bluemax]

Fair enough. Thanks for your replies. Are Mormons generally proud and supportive of their leaders? Do they agree that protecting their tax exempt status in the U.S. justified the behavior?

For the first one, I would say yes. They usually consider the people in charge to be wise, educated dudes who are guided by God.

To the second, I would say that most church members are largely ignorant of a lot of the Church's political and financial dealings.

 

[Father_Brain]

It's the same tone as the South Park episodes. They have a few extremely gross / harsh jokes, but the core message is actually quite heartwarming. Basically, that even if the Mormon history or beliefs are insane, it doesn't matter, because it gives people hope, and that's what matters.

I personally can't speak from a Mormon perspective, but I suspect Book of Mormon is at least more potentially offensive to LDS believers than South Park's All About Mormons. While the mockery of the founding myth is fairly similar in content and tone to what was in that episode, it comes off as sharper here, where it's intertwined with the protagonist's crisis of faith. Unlike AAM, it also addresses several of the most problematic aspects of the church, albeit superficially (the history of racist doctrine and practice, and its treatment of gays).

It's not exactly a scathing satire of the LDS Church, though, even if it does take a few tentative steps into that territory (particularly the "Turn It Off" number you mentioned). Parker and Stone definitely pull their punches; I personally didn't care much for the ending, but that's for the BOM thread.

 

[ronito]

I don't have the link but saw an April fool's article that was:

"LDS church says meetings too long. 3 hour block to be shortened to 1 hour. Conference to one session."

 

[lo escondido]

It's the same tone as the South Park episodes. They have a few extremely gross / harsh jokes, but the core message is actually quite heartwarming. Basically, that even if the Mormon history or beliefs are insane, it doesn't matter, because it gives people hope, and that's what matters.

I was reading about this play and I think was the NYT who discribed Stone it called him a "religious loving atheist" which it sounds like fits the message of this play this perfectly.

 

[exwallst]

How much money does the church make a year?

 

[Zzoram]

This. I had a Mormon best friend when I was a child and he was one of the nicest dudes I know. There was always little "mormonisms" he showed me that I found pretty interesting, such as the massive emergency stash, the "sealed" plates in the Book of Mormon (we finally pryed them open to be disappointed nothing was there), the undergarments and no chores on Sunday. He also claimed Mormons loved Fresca, I don't know if there's any validity to that but they had cases of the stuff

say what you want about their beliefs, but they're some of the friendliest people out there.

Ya I had a Mormon friend that had a huge store of food because he said the world was ending soon. He also vehemently hated caffeine. I've seen him stand up and violently spit out cake in a restaurant after chewing it because he tasted coffee.

Nice guy though.

 

[ronito]

How much money does the church make a year?

it's not disclosed.

 

[ronito]

Interesting take by USA Today

http://www.usatoday.com/news/religion/2011-03-30-mormom-prophet_N.htm

SALT LAKE CITY — Mormon President Thomas S. Monson, his two right-hand men and 12 apostles will take to the podium at this weekend's General Conference and offer sermons that many Mormons will treat like faxes from God.

Members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints consider these 15 men "prophets, seers and revelators" and look to them for divine guidance on issues as profound as the role of the Holy Spirit and as seemingly trivial as using "thee" and "thy" in prayers.

Mormons don't use the term "infallibility" to refer to their leaders and readily acknowledge that they are imperfect men. In practice, though, Mormon belief comes awfully close to that standard.

"We pay lip service to the prophet's fallibility," said Edward Kimball, son of late church President Spencer W. Kimball. "But when you come down to specifics, we can't think of any incidents where a prophet was wrong."

It's a conundrum for the ever-growing Utah-based church. Founder Joseph Smith took the title "prophet" and claimed divine messages, but also urged members to think for themselves and to ask God directly about the truth of various pronouncements.

One of Smith's most radical concepts was "continuing revelation," the notion that the scriptural canon did not end with the Bible and that well-established beliefs could be altered — even overturned — by new messages from heaven to the leaders in charge.

So much authority is ascribed to the Mormon president, though, that quasi-prophet worship by the far-flung members of the 14 million-member faith seems unavoidable.

After all, Mormon children are taught to sing "Follow the Prophet" and are assured that he never will lead the church astray.

The adherence to authority can create tensions for faithful Mormons who opposed the church's support of Proposition 8 that banned same-sex marriage in California, or those who now object to the church's support of a compassionate approach to illegal immigrants.

How, then, should Mormons view their leaders? What happens when they slip? And when, if ever, is it OK to disagree with them?

Smith knew his limitations and said a church president spoke for God only when he was "acting as a prophet." But few Mormons then or now could separate the man from the office. Instead, many have elevated his stature into an impossible realm.

Members say Smith was "just a normal man with failings and weaknesses who was called to do extraordinary things," said John Fowles, a Mormon lawyer in London, "but then many are very uncomfortable with even the very mild report of some of his weaknesses and failings."

Their faith is sometimes shaken, Fowles said, and it's all because of "unrealistic and unnecessary expectations."

For their part, Mormon leaders know they are fallible.

"Forget everything I have said, or what ... Brigham Young ... or whomsoever has said ... that is contrary to the present revelation," the late apostle Bruce R. McConkie once preached. "We spoke with a limited understanding."

When asked about his statement discounting that man would ever reach the moon, former church President Joseph Fielding Smith said, simply, "Well, I was wrong."

Indeed, biblical history is full of imperfect prophets. Moses killed a man and later met God face to face. King David committed adultery and then murder. In Mormonism, LDS prophet Brigham Young expressed racism, and a decade before his 2008 death, LDS President Gordon B. Hinckley confessed that "adulation is a disease I fight every day."

"I'm grateful to know this and more," said Molly Bennion, a Mormon in Seattle. "Their very fallibility gives me hope that I can overcome and that God might forgive me."

Bennion said those who follow the LDS prophet unthinkingly "never develop the spiritual strength necessary to weather the inevitable disillusionment in some leader or, perhaps worse, in oneself."

All humans learn as least as much from their mistakes as from their triumphs, Bennion said. "To deny our leaders that possibility seems unfair."

The speeches at General Conference and elsewhere mostly emphasize long-standing doctrines and LDS standards already spelled out in official publications, said Mormon sociologist Armand Mauss of Irvine, Calif. They largely serve to "build and maintain a sense of community among the Latter-day Saints in a diverse world."

And that can make it tough, Fowles said, to disagree.

Mormon writer Jana Riess experienced that firsthand last October, when her Flunking Sainthood blog took issue with LDS senior apostle Boyd K. Packer's critical conference comments about homosexuality.

Some blog commenters were "calling for my head for publicly disagreeing with a general authority," said Riess, who lives in Cincinnati. "But what is wrong with disagreement and debate? I did not say anything hurtful about Packer; I did not attack him personally. Nor did I question that he is called to hold the position of authority that he does. I simply disagreed with him. Why is that so threatening?"

Ultimately, LDS observers say, Mormons have to decide for themselves how much deference to give the words of their leaders and deal with the consequences of their choices.

Philip Barlow, who teaches Mormon History and Culture at Utah State University, said it's entirely possible to appreciate the intentions and example of LDS leaders, without falling prey to blind adoration.

"The wonder is not that some or another leader has disappointed in word or action," he said. "The proper wonder is that, with all the foibles to which we humans are subject, church leaders may ... exhibit the truth of what Jesus spoke of: grains of salt and bits of leaven capable of enlivening a whole people with the taste of the transcendent."

I've always said that catholics teach that the pope is infallible, but none of them actually believe it. Mormons teach the prophet is fallible. And none of them actually believe it.

Honestly though, I think the church is really to blame for this. I mean look at conference. We are taught to listen to all the sessions. After the sessions are over we're supposed to read the transcripts in the Ensign. After that there's talks in sacrament meeting about the talks given in conference. And most stakes do a monthly lesson on a talk given in conference. You can't really put so much emphasis on what these men say then when they're wrong use fallibility as a get out of jail free card.

 

[Ecce]

Interesting take by USA Today

I've always said that catholics teach that the pope is infallible, but none of them actually believe it. Mormons teach the prophet is fallible. And none of them actually believe it.

Honestly though, I think the church is really to blame for this. I mean look at conference. We are taught to listen to all the sessions. After the sessions are over we're supposed to read the transcripts in the Ensign. After that there's talks in sacrament meeting about the talks given in conference. And most stakes do a monthly lesson on a talk given in conference. You can't really put so much emphasis on what these men say then when they're wrong use fallibility as a get out of jail free card.

I think the general populous of the church is able to separate the man from the mantle when it comes to our ecclesiastic leaders. Take for instance the recent controversy over Elder Packer's homosexuality. Yes, what he said about homosexuals is technically in line with the Plan of Salvation doctrine. But, most of the members with whom I have discussed this incident agree that he presented this issue with little tolerance and it was obvious that some of his own prejudices came through in this talk. I realize that Elder Packer is not the prophet, but I don't think that the members at large automatically assume that our leaders are perfect/infallible.

 

[ronito]

I think the general populous of the church is able to separate the man from the mantle when it comes to our ecclesiastic leaders. Take for instance the recent controversy over Elder Packer's homosexuality. Yes, what he said about homosexuals is technically in line with the Plan of Salvation doctrine. But, most of the members with whom I have discussed this incident agree that he presented this issue with little tolerance and it was obvious that some of his own prejudices came through in this talk. I realize that Elder Packer is not the prophet, but I don't think that the members at large automatically assume that our leaders are perfect/infallible.

See? This is what I'm talking about.
"I don't agree with how he said it. But he wasn't technically wrong."

This totally sums it up:

"We pay lip service to the prophet's fallibility," said Edward Kimball, son of late church President Spencer W. Kimball. "But when you come down to specifics, we can't think of any incidents where a prophet was wrong."

 

[Ecce]

See? This is what I'm talking about.
"I don't agree with how he said it. But he wasn't technically wrong."

This totally sums it up:

Um, I think you concentrating on a different definition of fallibility. A person shows their fallibility by many means. Correct me if I am wrong, but you are referring specifically to the veracity of the doctrine taught by the prophet. In the Packer instance, his mistake was made in the manner in which he presented the doctrine, not the truth of such. The church needs to be very careful with the way they manage relationships with homosexual advocacy groups, and the mistake made by Packer (which proves his fallibility) potentially set back relations with these groups.

But there have been many instances where the leaders have taught incorrect doctrine, and the members have recognized it. On this very page we discussed the incorrect teachings within Elder McConkie's Mormon Doctrine, and there were so many members that realized it wasn't necessarily true doctrine that it was removed post-humously from his book, which proves his fallibility.

 

[ronito]

I think one of my professors at BYU put it best: "Prophets are plenty fallible....after they're dead."

Certainly that's what the correlation committee exists for, that's why there's such emphasis on conference as scripture. Sure mormons are willing to admit that McKay was wrong in saying we'd never go to the moon, or that Brigham Young was wrong to say that the sun was inhabited. But hint that Monson might be wrong about Prop 8 and you'll get called apostate. In Brigham Young's time many said that if you didn't believe in the adam-god theory you'd burn in hell. After he was dead though people were like, "Yeah that was pretty dumb."

A good example was when Hinckley said that he thought that women wearing more than one pair of earrings was immodest the next day at school a huge majority of the girls had taken out their extra pairs.

Let's also not forget that you're asked in the temple recommend interview if you support and follow the church's leaders starting with the prophet on down. Of course many would point out that it doesn't way in everything. But the question/requirement is still there.

 

[Ecce]

I think one of my professors at BYU put it best: "Prophets are plenty fallible....after they're dead."

Certainly that's what the correlation committee exists for, that's why there's such emphasis on conference as scripture. Sure mormons are willing to admit that McKay was wrong in saying we'd never go to the moon, or that Brigham Young was wrong to say that the sun was inhabited. But hint that Monson might be wrong about Prop 8 and you'll get called apostate. In Brigham Young's time many said that if you didn't believe in the adam-god theory you'd burn in hell. After he was dead though people were like, "Yeah that was pretty dumb."

A good example was when Hinckley said that he thought that women wearing more than one pair of earrings was immodest the next day at school a huge majority of the girls had taken out their extra pairs.

Let's also not forget that you're asked in the temple recommend interview if you support and follow the church's leaders starting with the prophet on down. Of course many would point out that it doesn't way in everything. But the question/requirement is still there.

Will respond. Back to class...

 

[Westonian]

I think one of my professors at BYU put it best: "Prophets are plenty fallible....after they're dead."

Certainly that's what the correlation committee exists for, that's why there's such emphasis on conference as scripture. Sure mormons are willing to admit that McKay was wrong in saying we'd never go to the moon, or that Brigham Young was wrong to say that the sun was inhabited. But hint that Monson might be wrong about Prop 8 and you'll get called apostate. In Brigham Young's time many said that if you didn't believe in the adam-god theory you'd burn in hell. After he was dead though people were like, "Yeah that was pretty dumb."

A good example was when Hinckley said that he thought that women wearing more than one pair of earrings was immodest the next day at school a huge majority of the girls had taken out their extra pairs.

Let's also not forget that you're asked in the temple recommend interview if you support and follow the church's leaders starting with the prophet on down. Of course many would point out that it doesn't way in everything. But the question/requirement is still there.

I think people put way too much emphasis on things like Hinkley saying more than one pair of earrings was immodest. That's his opinion, not doctrine, and I'm 100% sure that it is not something that is going to cost you your salvation. Hinkley simply doesn't like women wearing more than one pair of earrings. Hinkley, not God.

A great anecdote I know about is when the Orlando temple was finished, Hinkley was being given a tour prior to the open house. When they got to the celestial room, Hinkley was appalled that the room was painted with purple and orange highlights (meant to reflect a Florida sunset). He started ripping into the designer. Really letting him know how inappropriate the color scheme was for a celestial room. Midway through his verbal thrashing he received a firm elbow to his ribs from his wife. Sister Hinkley said, "Gordon! I think it's pretty!" And if you go to the Orlando temple today you will see a purple and orange highlighted celestial room.

Prophets are men with their own various opinions and personalities. Unless they declare something to be definitively the Word of God, you shouldn't assume it is. That's not to say there isn't wisdom in their advice and council, and I firmly believe that your life on this earth will be easier if you adhere to it. But that doesn't mean all of it is a prerequisite for eternal salvation.

 

[ronito]

I think people put way too much emphasis on things like Hinkley saying more than one pair of earrings was immodest. That's his opinion, not doctrine, and I'm 100% sure that it is not something that is going to cost you your salvation. Hinkley simply doesn't like women wearing more than one pair of earrings. Hinkley, not God.

A great anecdote I know about is when the Orlando temple was finished, Hinkley was being given a tour prior to the open house. When they got to the celestial room, Hinkley was appalled that the room was painted with purple and orange highlights (meant to reflect a Florida sunset). He started ripping into the designer. Really letting him know how inappropriate the color scheme was for a celestial room. Midway through his verbal thrashing he received a firm elbow to his ribs from his wife. Sister Hinkley said, "Gordon! I think it's pretty!" And if you go to the Orlando temple today you will see a purple and orange highlighted celestial room.

Prophets are men with their own various opinions and personalities. Unless they declare something to be definitively the Word of God, you shouldn't assume it is. That's not to say there isn't wisdom in their advice and council, and I firmly believe that your life on this earth will be easier if you adhere to it. But that doesn't mean all of it is a prerequisite for eternal salvation.

Certainly, this is a healthy way of looking at it. But the gist of the article, and mine as well. Is that for many (if not most) they don't view it this way.

 

[Laurentius]

Certainly, this is a healthy way of looking at it. But the gist of the article, and mine as well. Is that for many (if not most) they don't view it this way.

Indeed, which is something member's of the church need to come to tems with. But it reminds me of Moroni in the Book of Mormon who said that if there were mistakes in that book, they were the mistakes of man, and to condemn not the things of God.

I believe that an unhealthy view of everything the prophet says as infallible is a mistake of man, and probably also a product of the culture. It certainly doesn't detract, for me, from what really is true. That's what study and prayer and thought is for. I remember reading about a controversy many years ago about some New Era article that said "when the prophet speaks, the thinking is done". The then prophet (I don't remember who it was) was pretty upset by that statement and made sure it was known that is NOT true, and that we're expected to really think and pray about what is said for ourselves.

 

[ronito]

Just in time for conference!

This is pretty interesting:
http://usu-shaft.com/2011/trends-in-general-conference-talks-1851-2010/

Here's the tool:
http://corpus.byu.edu/gc/

 

[Trent Strong]

Pioneer children sang as they walked, and walked, and walked, and walked and walked and walked, and walked, and walked, and walked, and walked, and walked, and walked, and walked, and walked, and walked, and walked, and walked, and walked, and walked, and walked, and walked, and walked, and walked, and walked, and walked, and walked, and walked, and walked, and walked, and walked, and walked, and walked, and walked, and walked, and walked, and walked, and walked, and walked, and walked, and walked, and walked, and walked, and walked, and walked, and walked, and walked, and walked.........and walked.

 

[Commodore]

Just in time for conference!

This is pretty interesting:
http://usu-shaft.com/2011/trends-in-general-conference-talks-1851-2010/

Here's the tool:
http://corpus.byu.edu/gc/

That was actually fairly interesting looking at the topics rise and fall given the context of the time. Thanks for sharing.

 

[ronito]

That was actually fairly interesting looking at the topics rise and fall given the context of the time. Thanks for sharing.

What I found really interesting is how little the atonement was brought up historically. Now it's one of the most talked about things like a main cornerstone of the church.

Trent: Dude that brings back memories of when I used to be a primary teacher and our music leader would literally make that song that long.

 

[exwallst]

Leaders you can't question and no one talks about the money. Before I ask how this isn't a cult, are there other churches that follow the same model?

 

[exwallst]

So Gaf had me reading Palestinian history on wikipedia and I checked out 'cults.' I didn't realize cult was now a pejorative term. I hope I didn't offend anyone. I should have simply asked whether other churches were against fiscal transparency and unsupportive of questioning authority. How do Mormons convert men? It seems, almost, like the perfect anti-Gaf. 10% of your money to who knows what (except anti homosexual politics). No smoking, drinking, gambling, pornography, sex with girlfriend, etc. It makes sense that they are known for their women, the men must be very hard to find.

 

[Zerokku]

Conference was pretty good. I havent slept that well in a long time. If I'm expected to be present with the rest of the family when its on despite my lack of belief, don't expect me to pay attention

 

[ronito]

So Elder Packer brought in something very "Kimballian" of him. See bold below.

http://www.ldschurchnews.com/articles/60724/President-Boyd-K-Packer-Guided-by-the-Holy-Spirit.html

Every member can be guided by the Spirit of revelation and the gift of the Holy Ghost, declared President Boyd K. Packer, president of the Quorum of the Twelve, in his Saturday afternoon address.
`
"Regardless of opposition, or 'wars, rumors of wars, and earthquakes in divers places,' no power or influence can stop this work."

President Packer said the scriptures today consist of the Bible, the Book of Mormon: Another Testament of Jesus Christ, the Pearl of Great Price and the Doctrine and Covenants. "Because of the Book of Mormon, we are frequently called the Mormon Church, a title we do not resent, but it is really not accurate." In the Book of Mormon, the Lord revisited the Nephites, who asked to know what they should call the Church. The Lord instructed them to call the Church in His sacred name.

"Obedient to revelation, we call ourselves The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints rather than the Mormon Church. It is one thing for others to refer to the Church as the Mormon Church or to us as Mormons, it is quite another for us to do so," he said.

President Packer added that the First Presidency has stated that the use of the revealed name, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Doctrine and Covenants 115:4), is increasingly important to proclaim the name of the Savior throughout all the world. The First Presidency went on to ask that members refer to the Church by its full name whenever possible. When referring to Church members, it's suggested that "members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" be used. And as a shortened reference, "Latter-day Saints" is preferred.

"The world will refer to us as they will, but in our speech always remember that we belong to the Church of Jesus Christ,"

The Church leader noted that some claim Latter-day Saints are not Christians. "They either do not know us at all or they misunderstand."

In the Church, he added, every ordinance is done by the authority of and in the name of Jesus Christ. It is the same organization that was found in the primitive Church with apostles and prophets.

After the resurrected Christ ascended into heaven, His apostles were empowered with the authority given by the Savior and the gift of the Holy Ghost that were essential for establishing the Church. They were commanded to baptize and confer the gift of the Holy Ghost. In time, the apostles and the priesthood they carried were gone. The authority and power to administer had to be restored.

"In 1829, the priesthood was restored to Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery by John the Baptist and the Apostles Peter, James and John," he said. "Now worthy male members of the Church are ordained to the priesthood. The authority and the attendant gift of the Holy Ghost, which is conferred upon all members of the Church after baptism, set us apart from other churches."

The work of the Church today is performed by ordinary men and women called and sustained to preside, to teach and to administer. It it by the power of revelation and the gift of the Holy Ghost that those called are guided to know the Lord's will.

Through Joseph Smith, the Lord revealed a code of health — the Word of Wisdom. All are taught to avoid tea, coffee, liquor, tobacco and varieties of drugs and addictive substances. "Those who obey this revelation are promised that they shall receive health, 'and shall find wisdom and great treasures of knowledge, even hidden treasures.'"

President Packer said the Lord has also revealed that the sacred powers to beget life must be protected and employed only between man and woman, husband and wife. "To misuse this power is exceeded in seriousness only by the shedding of innocent blood and denying the Holy Ghost." Repentance can erase the effect of such transgressions.

The great plan of happiness centers on family life. The husband is the head of the home and the wife the heart of the home, with marriage an equal partnership, he said.

Latter-day Saints are also taught to love one another and to frankly forgive offenses. Many members have been offended by some aspect of the Church and have fallen into inactivity.

"That attitude is somewhat like a man being hit by a club," he said. "Offended, he takes up a club and beats himself over the head all the days of his life. How foolish! How sad! That kind of revenge is self-inflicting. If you have been offended, forgive, forget it and leave it alone."

So in essence gay sex/premarital sex and masturbation are all pretty close to murder. I thought this had gone away when Kimball did. And while I've said it before that I think that the mormon church is the only one where a sin is still a pretty serious thing, is there something to be gained by likening masturbators to murderers?

 

[SUPREME1]

I've mentioned this before:


A childhood friend of mine who married into the Mormon culture/religion invited me to join their summer basketball league several years back. The people were as nice as can be, probably the ideal people you'd want to be your neighbor (religion aside).

Well, it took me several games to really get my vulgar language under control. For instance: after a missed gimme shot, I'd shout off "FUCK!" or somethign similar, as if I was at the park with a bunch of street dudes. I'd get looks of shock, but nobody said anything or tried to correct me. And I appreciate that. My friend would look at me though and shake his head laughing. He knew I wasn't doing it on purpose and so it was cool with him.

 

[ronito]

You know what? Mormons might have all this crazy stuff. And what happens in the temple might freak a lot of people out. But man, that is one thing they got that really rocks. They got some kickass temples.

My one regret about leaving the church was that I didn't get to go into the San Diego temple. Which is certainly my favorite. Really some beautiful structures.

 

[blackflag]

I'm one of those athiests that tend to think the Mormon religion even sillier than most others. I think most of that comes from the fact that it was only created a few hundred years ago.

I have to say though. They make great neighbors. I live in Mesa, AZ which is like SLC south when it comes to the Mormon population. Several of my neighbors, including the 2 houses directly next to mine are mormon. They couldn't be any nicer. It makes the neighborhood really nice and quiet.

The only thing that ever annoyed me was their anti gay marriage signs in all of their yards when AZ was voting on it.

 

[Alucrid]

You know what? Mormons might have all this crazy stuff. And what happens in the temple might freak a lot of people out. But man, that is one thing they got that really rocks. They got some kickass temples.

My one regret about leaving the church was that I didn't get to go into the San Diego temple. Which is certainly my favorite. Really some beautiful structures.
http://www.ldschurchtemples.com/sandiego/images/san-diego-mormon-temple.jpg[IMG][/QUOTE]

How the hell is it that white?

 

[olore]

I've mentioned this before:


A childhood friend of mine who married into the Mormon culture/religion invited me to join their summer basketball league several years back. The people were as nice as can be, probably the ideal people you'd want to be your neighbor (religion aside).

Well, it took me several games to really get my vulgar language under control. For instance: after a missed gimme shot, I'd shout off "FUCK!" or somethign similar, as if I was at the park with a bunch of street dudes. I'd get looks of shock, but nobody said anything or tried to correct me. And I appreciate that. My friend would look at me though and shake his head laughing. He knew I wasn't doing it on purpose and so it was cool with him.

Have similar experience. It really makes you think about your language and how often profanity is used. It´s kind of a wakeup call.

 

[reilo]

You know what? Mormons might have all this crazy stuff. And what happens in the temple might freak a lot of people out. But man, that is one thing they got that really rocks. They got some kickass temples.

My one regret about leaving the church was that I didn't get to go into the San Diego temple. Which is certainly my favorite. Really some beautiful structures.

There is a giant mormon temple out in Lake Oswego, OR that looks similar to that one. It's certainly visible from a distance especially since it's right next to I5. Pretty big for USA standards, I suppose. Then again the churches/basilicas/temples/mosques in Europe and abroad make it look small in comparison.

 

[adamsappel]

You can see the spires of the Mormon Temple in Kensington, MD from the Beltway when I drive to my parents. I've always told my daughter it's a castle, and a princess lives there.

 

[Hitokage]

There is a giant mormon temple out in Lake Oswego, OR that looks similar to that one. It's certainly visible from a distance especially since it's right next to I5. Pretty big for USA standards, I suppose. Then again the churches/basilicas/temples/mosques in Europe and abroad make it look small in comparison.

Mormons typically don't do huge cathedral interiors, so even though some look really impressive on the outside they're typical multistory buildings on the inside with a handful of really fancy rooms.

 

[ronito]

How the hell is it that white?

It's mormon.

 

[Instigator]

Here's a tricky question. I know Mormons don't usually watch R-rated stuff, but in case some are more liberal on this issue, did they find the Port Joe Smith (and its aftermath) reference funny or cute in Starship Troopers?

 

[Barrett2]

Conference was pretty good. I havent slept that well in a long time. If I'm expected to be present with the rest of the family when its on despite my lack of belief, don't expect me to pay attention

I love how after every Conference like clockwork, I'll be talking to one of my parents on the phone a week or two later, and they'll ask me if I watched conference. *crickets*

It's funny, even though my parents have known I'm an atheist for quite some time, it's like they just assume one of these days I will change my mind about everything. It doesn't help that they are now in the early stages of a divorce, and I can already see both of them, understandably, becoming more 'churchy' as a result.

 

[ronito]

Instigator: Only one of my mormon friends watched starship troopers. And I know he found it "cool". BTW, you still have the best avatars on GAF.

I love how after every Conference like clockwork, I'll be talking to one of my parents on the phone a week or two later, and they'll ask me if I watched conference. *crickets*

It's funny, even though my parents have known I'm an atheist for quite some time, it's like they just assume one of these days I will change my mind about everything. It doesn't help that they are now in the early stages of a divorce, and I can already see both of them, understandably, becoming more 'churchy' as a result.

I find my parents getting less and less "mormony" as time passes actually. As well as my wife's parents.

My parents I think mainly because they saw the church as a way to raise their kids. Now that we're all out of the house and made our own lives I think they're now on auto-pilot.

As for my wife's parents. They stumbled onto this whole "new-age" thing that's going around in Utah called "Impact" so they're into crystals and all this crazy stuff on top of still being sorta mormon.

 

[reilo]

Since the subject of race has been broached already, and in light of the recent BYU student-athlete "honor code" violation, Deadspin wrote an article on BYU, race, and the honor code:

Since 1993, according to our research, at least 70 athletes have been suspended, dismissed, put on probation, or forced to withdraw from their teams or the school after running afoul of the honor code. Fifty-four of them, or nearly 80 percent, are minorities. Forty-one, or almost 60 percent, are black men. These are conservative numbers, compiled from media reports and interviews. In several cases, we could not confirm an honor code violation. In other cases, we could not establish the race or ethnicity of the athlete involved. We excluded those cases from our tally.

Clearly, though, something is amiss at BYU, where around 23 percent of the athletes are minorities, according to the university. Only .6 percent of the student body is black (176 out of the 32,947 students enrolled in 2010). Yet a majority of the honor code violations involve black athletes. Do these numbers mean these athletes "sin" more than everyone else? Hardly. Several former BYU football players told us that their white teammates routinely broke the honor code and got away with it, either because they didn't get caught or because their violations were covered up.

http://deadspin.com/#!5791461

I haven't finished reading the article yet, but I figured it might pertain to this thread.

 

[Jeff-DSA]

Since the subject of race has been broached already, and in light of the recent BYU student-athlete "honor code" violation, Deadspin wrote an article on BYU, race, and the honor code:

http://deadspin.com/#!5791461

I haven't finished reading the article yet, but I figured it might pertain to this thread.

Ah, don't waste your time. The article is an absolute mess of slanted journalism. They ONLY interview people who had negative experiences and completely ignore the hundreds and hundreds of players that have come through over the years and have had positive experiences. They also get lots of facts wrong and don't make any attempt to differentiate suspended from the team (temporarily) from being dismissed from the school. Honor code violations often get a player suspended from sports, but they're still enrolled in the school unless it was a real serious violation and they person showed no remorse or they're a chronic offender.

Seriously though, the whole article is a MASSIVE spin piece. There are issues that need to be looked into with the honor code, but this article didn't go about it in an intelligent manner at all. You can't have a good investigative piece when the writers come in with an agenda.

 

[ronito]

Ah, don't waste your time. The article is an absolute mess of slanted journalism. They ONLY interview people who had negative experiences and completely ignore the hundreds and hundreds of players that have come through over the years and have had positive experiences. They also get lots of facts wrong and don't make any attempt to differentiate suspended from the team (temporarily) from being dismissed from the school. Honor code violations often get a player suspended from sports, but they're still enrolled in the school unless it was a real serious violation and they person showed no remorse or they're a chronic offender.

Seriously though, the whole article is a MASSIVE spin piece. There are issues that need to be looked into with the honor code, but this article didn't go about it in an intelligent manner at all. You can't have a good investigative piece when the writers come in with an agenda.

as much as I enjoy finding fault in the church and all Jeff's right on this one. Just reading it you can tell that it was slanted from the beginning. They should be ashamed for publishing such a one sided article.

I'll be the first to agree the honor code can be pretty silly and is ill applied. But there are far too many variables applied. You wanna see a true honor code holocaust check out the liberal arts majors.

Fact is everyone knows full well what they're signing up for when they sign up and the fact that by definition the honor code is subjective it's hardly surprising it's subjectively applied.

 

[Barrett2]

I couldn't even get through half of that Deadspin article. Hey, let's get a bunch of disgruntled former college athletes to talk shit about something in super vague terms.

I love the argument that, yeah, I didn't really bother to actually learn what the rules of the university were, but on my recruitment trip some cute girl told me the rules weren't too bad, but it turns out she wasn't being totally serious!!

 

[ronito]

I thought this was really interesting to me. A look into the church's finances:

http://harrisonames.com/?p=37

The Canadian Revenue Agency (CRA) makes available to the public certain aspects of each registered charity in Canada. Each ward is registered as its own charity (487 in total) and are registered under names like “Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints Cherry Grove Ward, while the church also registers another charity for the church as a whole in Canada (The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints in Canada – BN 119223758 RR0001).

In reviewing the 2009 filing for the nationwide charity, I found some numbers that I wanted to share with you.

1) It looks like each ward takes care of their local welfare and their activities budget out of the donations made by their members. The rest of the money is then transferred to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints in Canada. For example, on their 2009 filing, the Lethbridge 12th ward received $558, 729 in donations from their members. $1,740 was then spent on “office supplies,” $33,062 was spent on “all purchased supplies and assets,”, and $32,513 was spent on “other” which is later explained as being spent on “assistance to the poor and needy.” Further down on their filing, $492,942 of the member donation money is given to a “qualified donee” which isn’t specified, but we can assume it went to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints in Canada.

2) The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints in Canada received $69,089,700 from “non-arm’s length parties,” again, presumably from the branches of the church throughout the country.

3) In 2009, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints in Canada gave $40,000,000 to BYU Provo. In other words, 57.9% of the money received from “non arms-length parties” that year. Here is the Form T1236(09) that shows the transfer to BYU.

4) Compensation. In 2009, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints in Canada had 248 part-time workers who earned a total of $1,807,140 for the collective. They also had 184 full-time workers who split a total of $15,237,479, of those full-time workers, two of them made between $80,000 – $119,999; six of them made between $120,000 – $159,999; and two others made between $160,000 – $199,999.

Interesting stuff, isn’t it?

The last bit about salary is interesting. Given that most church positions are filled in Salt Lake and not Canada I'm assuming those salaries are the stipend for leadership?