Purple Cheeto
Member
I feel like there's a "gave up the ghost" joke in here somewhere.
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Mormon/Ex-Mormon Thread of 3 hour blocks and salvation flowcharts
- Thread starter ronito
- Start date
I guess you could say your dad "gave up the ghost". Any by "gave up the ghost" I mean ejaculated in my vagina.
And in other news that "Meet the Mormons" movie is coming out. I didn't know that it was a in theaters movie. Seems like a lot of money for commercial.
Last I checked it was a 0% on rotten tomatoes.
And in other news that "Meet the Mormons" movie is coming out. I didn't know that it was a in theaters movie. Seems like a lot of money for commercial.
Last I checked it was a 0% on rotten tomatoes.
Purple Cheeto
Member
ronitoswife
Neo Member
It's all about image control. With everything that has been going on recently (prop 8, ordain women, etc.) and the fact that the internet makes it so much easier and convenient for people to look up aspects of the churches past and teachings that are often sugarcoated, dismissed or hidden by the leaders of the church. Before that the church could bank on the fact that many people would give up searching into the church's hidden secrets because they were harder to get to. They could keep all the happenings more quietly. Nowadays we have access to all that info right in our very homes. Which is probably why there were talks regarding not taking what you hear on the internet seriously and to avoid it. The church has been in the lime lite a lot recently and it hasn't been positive exposure. So I think this whole Meet the Mormons thing is mainly to counteract all the negativity they've been receiving. The church has always believed that the media can be used as a missionary tool. I think they truly believe and hope that this will inspire growth and membership for the church. The thing is, so far I'm only seeing that inspiration coming from already within the church. I'm not surprised at all by that. This is the type of thing that many active members love. Which is probably why they are not bothered by the fact that they paid for it through their tithing money. Actually, I bet a lot of them haven't even thought about that. They are essentially paying to see a movie they already paid for. But for them the uplifting feelings of the spirit will all be worth it. A reassurance for their testimonies. I guess we will have to wait and see if it pays off for the church.
Whoa whoa whoa there Mormon Newsroom
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PsLrVpeodog&feature=youtu.be
Showing temple clothing and garments on youtube?I get that they're trying to get ahead of the whole "magic underwear" stuff, but I'm not sure this is the way to do it. I mean was it just me or aren't you supposed to never show anyone, let alone those who aren't mormon?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PsLrVpeodog&feature=youtu.be
Showing temple clothing and garments on youtube?I get that they're trying to get ahead of the whole "magic underwear" stuff, but I'm not sure this is the way to do it. I mean was it just me or aren't you supposed to never show anyone, let alone those who aren't mormon?
Laurentius
Member
WTFuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu
I think my first temple experience would have been somewhat less traumatic if somebody had told me about or shown me the temple clothes beforehand. It was just so weird and certainly didn't "stir the deepest feelings of the soul, motivate me to do good, or shape the course of a whole life of service". (Also, WTF at that statement, clothes shaping a life of service? Did they really just say that?)
The Newsroom giveth and the Newsroom taketh away.
I think my first temple experience would have been somewhat less traumatic if somebody had told me about or shown me the temple clothes beforehand. It was just so weird and certainly didn't "stir the deepest feelings of the soul, motivate me to do good, or shape the course of a whole life of service". (Also, WTF at that statement, clothes shaping a life of service? Did they really just say that?)
The Newsroom giveth and the Newsroom taketh away.
My parents volunteer in the temple in the clothing area so they're really confused by all this. My mom didn't believe me when I told her she said that just last week the matron had told a gentleman that wanted to get part of his temple robes fixed that he'd just have to buy new ones because he's not allowed to take them to a tailor (even a mormon one) because that'd be breaking his covenant to not discuss/show anyone. But then she saw it on the news (yeah this made the news in Utah) so now she believes. She said that the church did it to try and stop people from saying that they were taught they were magical (which I told her, and she agreed, that the church totally does teach that) but she's in shock and while she puts on a smile, she wont tell me what she thinks about it which tells me she's not OK with it.
AlteredBeast
Fork 'em, Sparky!
Lol. They weren't actual garments, nor the full temple garb, if you get my drift.
The clothing themselves are not important, any way, or should I say, it isn't what they showed. I think this was an awesome move and really well done, but I highly doubt the people who jokingly refer to it as magic underwear are going to spend 5 minutes on YouTube to watch it.
The clothing themselves are not important, any way, or should I say, it isn't what they showed. I think this was an awesome move and really well done, but I highly doubt the people who jokingly refer to it as magic underwear are going to spend 5 minutes on YouTube to watch it.
Laurentius
Member
The thing that bothers me is that the church has maintained a real strict air of secrecy towards garments and particularly temple clothes. I was raised in the church and NEVER once saw a glimpse of or had any idea of what the temple clothes were until I was sitting there in the temple waiting for my endowments. Kinda freaked me out, to be honest. I thought you just wore your white suits or white dresses, and that was it. I knew about garments, sure, but temple clothes were something else entirely.
Having the Newsroom suddenly come out with this video aimed at non members that shows things that even many kids in the church have no idea about seems weird. I wish it would have been directed at the member's first. Like, "hey, don't go flaunting your temple clothes around, but it's okay to talk about them, and describe them to your children, or answer questions about them to your friends".
On the other hand, I can see it as a good thing in the sense of being willing to talk about those "secret" things. I would like more open discussion about the temple so that less kids are traumatized by it (and not the worthless "temple prep" classes). Sad that it had to take the internet to force their hand into doing that.
That's a technicality. Like saying "sure we did the whole ceremony, but instead of saying 'what is wanted' I said, 'what do you want?' so no harm done!"
I have to admit it's hilarious the non-active mormons are like "Whoa! This isn't OK! What the hell?!" and the active mormons are like "This is great!"
When in the past someone would post pics of the temple clothes or garments the non-active mormons were like "This is great!" and the mormons were like "Whoa this isn't OK! What the flippin' fetch?!'
AlteredBeast
Fork 'em, Sparky!
Once again, those were instances showing the actual clothes, and perhaps just as important, people wearing them. I feel like you are being a little obtuse here...
I saw the actual temple getup before going to the temple for the first time. My dad helped me pack my bag, so I knew everything that went in there, just not what the point was. Of course I wasn't surprised when we put it on. I think a lot of people believe that their experiences are gospel or the only way, when in reality, a lot of it is just tradition.
I saw the actual temple getup before going to the temple for the first time. My dad helped me pack my bag, so I knew everything that went in there, just not what the point was. Of course I wasn't surprised when we put it on. I think a lot of people believe that their experiences are gospel or the only way, when in reality, a lot of it is just tradition.
Laurentius
Member
Since I don't believe anymore, I definitely see it all as tradition. In the long run I'm all for some of the negative traditions changing, even if the method for changing them doesn't always sit right for me.
Brian Hales had 8 citations, Compton had 1
That's Dan Peterson who wrote this today.
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865613724/Some-things-are-more-important-than-others.html
Brian Hales is the guy that says Joseph Smith didn't have sex with any of his polygamous wives unless it is stated in a primary source.
Brianemone
Member
I haven't had sex with anyone either.
Is there even any proof he was having sex with Emma? Maybe Hyrum was helping him out and Joseph was purely in it for the eternal aspect.
Oh that guy, that's even worse than that Tapir guy.
I can at least somewhat try to understand someone who though maybe there were some really big Tapirs much more so than I could believe that Joseph Smith didn't have sex with his polygamous wives. I mean that's just so insulting to intelligence. Oh , of course he didn't have sex with those 14 year olds he married them to....uh...provide for them because...uh...god had seen that they'd never get married later....so why wait?
Welp, the LDS essay is now on ABC News' front page
http://abcnews.go.com/Health/wireStory/mormon-founder-teen-bride-polygamy-days-26431929
http://abcnews.go.com/Health/wireStory/mormon-founder-teen-bride-polygamy-days-26431929
Looks like ABC didn't do their research though. "No sex?" Come on. Also stating that it was common to marry 14 year olds? If you consider 3% common I guess that's true. ABC obviously just read the essay got two sound bytes and left it at that.
So front page of the new york times now
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/11/u...founder-had-up-to-40-wives.html?referrer&_r=1
Also cnn front page and fox news too.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/11/u...founder-had-up-to-40-wives.html?referrer&_r=1
Also cnn front page and fox news too.
Purple Cheeto
Member
Is this only news because the Church is finally admitting it?
We need to round up some faithful elders and put a torch to that public nuisance of a newspaper for printing slanderous lies about the prophet Joseph.
Seriously though. The Nauvoo city council declared the Expositor a public nuisance and was printing lies. The "lies" are all with regards to polygamy which was secretly being taught at the time, even as it was publicly denied.
AlteredBeast
Fork 'em, Sparky!
News to some people, I presume?
I heard he married a very elderly lady as well, but it looks like that isn't mentioned anywhere.
I heard he married a very elderly lady as well, but it looks like that isn't mentioned anywhere.
you're surprised it's news to people? I mean Eliza R. Snow who was one of Joseph's own wives lead a signed petition denying that Joseph ever practiced polygamy. It's not like the church has been forth coming about Joseph Smith and his wives in the past. Yeah, if you researched it you'd know but the church is actively engaged in telling people not to research stuff because there's no "truth filter" on the internet. Tons of people on my facebook who are TBMs are sorta surprised and some have started doubting because they felt the church wasn't forthcoming about this stuff until now.
Yeah he married a 58 year old. But then, again, are you really surprised that no one talks about her? I mean she was of age, unlike some others of his wives.
Yeah he married a 58 year old. But then, again, are you really surprised that no one talks about her? I mean she was of age, unlike some others of his wives.
Thaedolus
Gold Member
Praise the Lord I've got my NeoGAF account back.
I'm just going to point out that I listed pretty much every Gospel Topics Essay topic as a reason for leaving the church about 7 years ago, and my dad (lifelong member, RM, served in several bishoprics and high council callings) flatly rejected the information I gave him as anti-Mormon lies. Every single one of them has been now confirmed by the church, except perhaps the Masonic rites that were converted into the temple ceremony. Every one. To say that this isn't news to many (most?) members is to be really disingenuous. My sister as of a couple months ago still didn't know Joseph Smith married a girl "several months before her 15th birthday."
I'm just going to point out that I listed pretty much every Gospel Topics Essay topic as a reason for leaving the church about 7 years ago, and my dad (lifelong member, RM, served in several bishoprics and high council callings) flatly rejected the information I gave him as anti-Mormon lies. Every single one of them has been now confirmed by the church, except perhaps the Masonic rites that were converted into the temple ceremony. Every one. To say that this isn't news to many (most?) members is to be really disingenuous. My sister as of a couple months ago still didn't know Joseph Smith married a girl "several months before her 15th birthday."
Speaking of which, I got a little bored last night and wanted to play around with some data
https://public.tableausoftware.com/profile/ronito.cruz#!/vizhome/TheWivesofJosephSmith/Dashboard
https://public.tableausoftware.com/profile/ronito.cruz#!/vizhome/TheWivesofJosephSmith/Dashboard
Purple Cheeto
Member
I spoke with some missionaries who hadn't even heard about these essays the Church is releasing. You'd think someone would prep them on current events that people might want to talk about. I didn't even press them on it, I just asked if they had heard about it.
Like you I'm waiting on the masonic messages thing. That's the last of it. I must admit though it's funny to see all the stuff I'd keep on bringing up and talking about and people would off put me by saying I was listening to Anti stuff. And now the it's the church putting it out.
Thaedolus
Gold Member
I'm not sure how the apologetics work on the Mason angle...I mean, I know there's this idea that Freemasonry was a corrupted version of Solomon's temple or some such shit, but even the Masons don't believe that anymore. Also, there are a lot of LDS men who are also Masons...which I find odd.
Side note: I've got an open invite to join the Masons, I've just not decided to do it as of now.
Side note: I've got an open invite to join the Masons, I've just not decided to do it as of now.
I do too. I looked real hard at it, I figured "I was mormon so I'm already at least 1/2 mason anyway." I even went through the first few meetings. Really it's easy to be like "yeah yeah, Mormons are a lot like masons I get it." until you actually go to a lodge and be like "Holy hell, it's not 'like the masons' it's outright plagiarism".
I was pretty serious about it then they told me that as a benefit when you die you get a masonic funeral and headstone and that was enough for me to be like "no thanks". I've gone through 30+ years of being largely identified by one part of my life "Oh look, it's ronito, the mormon" that I didn't need to sign up for anymore of that.
Thaedolus
Gold Member
Yeah, I wish I could move on in my journey to be an "Ex-Ex-Mormon," where I don't identify myself at all by anything to do with the church...yet I still struggle with my views of the world. I still have a sexist view of sexuality, for example. Like, logically and objectively I know that it's this natural and good thing for both sexes, but it's still hard for me to not view sexually active women as being slutty or the act itself as some overblown horrible sin/highest degree of sacredness. It's weird. I know it's the wrong way to view it, yet so much of my life and identity was formed around that growing up that it's hard to shake off.
Then there's the familial component. Heading home to the Bay Area for Monday-Friday, gonna be in a house full of 100% TBMs aside from my wife and me. Hoo boy!
Then there's the familial component. Heading home to the Bay Area for Monday-Friday, gonna be in a house full of 100% TBMs aside from my wife and me. Hoo boy!
I totally get you. I wish I could get there, but I just can't right now. It really infuriates me the whole line of "you can leave the church but you can't leave it alone!" and you get that all the time from mormons (hell, I'm pretty sure it's been said in this very thread a few times). But the thing is, they can't really imagine/have any idea what it's like to leave. For over 30 years the church influenced nearly every facet of my life, when I could date, who I dated, how "far" we could go, what I wore, the kinds of music I listened to/avoided, what I drank, the movies I watched, the books I read, where I studied, my views on sex etc etc. It was a pervasive element of my life, if not the most pervasive element of my life. On top of that I minored in religion at BYU. I was so fascinated by the whole thing I read several books and wrote dozens of essays on it. And then just because I know longer believe I'm supposed to take all 30+ years of that and effort and just be like "Well, that was fun. What's next?" One mormon joked that I treated the church like an ex-spouse treats their former partner. To which I replied, "that's not true. I wasn't married to my partner for more than 30 years and I wouldn't let me partner tell me what to wear, what to drink, what movies to watch and so on."
It's sorta like you and your family and practically everyone you know is really into the lord of the rings and you go out and study it thoroughly more thoroughly than most people. Then you decide that maybe it's time to read some other books and everyone's like "Fine don't talk about the lord of the rings again." Despite that you have all this knowledge you've spent decades acquiring about it.
Further, the church still exerts influence on me on an almost daily basis. Whether it be from the skewed views of sex/sexual repression that the wife and I have to deal with that impacts us nearly every day. Or my family that's still mormon. Or my wife's family who's not just Mormons with a capital M, they're all caps MORMON. Or my remaining friends on facebook who plaster half of my facebook with quotes about how wonderful the church is and how bad everyone else is. And seeing friends and family we care about struggle and be hurt by the church or the church's culture and it's so hard to see them having such a hard time and think to yourself "Or you could just let it go and accept yourself and be happy." But to know that's not an option for them or something that they recognize.
It's really really hard and I don't think you can really understand how difficult it is unless you've actually done it. I'd like to get to the point where I'm an ex-exmormon. But I'm not there. It comes and goes in waves. I'll go months thinking I'm cool I've moved on, only to get sucked back in somehow. It's frustrating, but I'm happy I'm at least not one of those people that actively attack the church like that Tom Philips guy. And I'm happy that I didn't just replace the church with another church. I've had several friends that left the mormon church to just become baptists. Now they have all the same problems but under a different name. Some of my wife's family really got into that Impact thing which to me is just leaving one cult-like organization and going to another culty organization. I'm glad for that at least.
BTW, if you're driving through Sacramento on your way to the Bay Area stop by Sacramento and visit me and the wife. Y'all are always welcomed here.
It's sorta like you and your family and practically everyone you know is really into the lord of the rings and you go out and study it thoroughly more thoroughly than most people. Then you decide that maybe it's time to read some other books and everyone's like "Fine don't talk about the lord of the rings again." Despite that you have all this knowledge you've spent decades acquiring about it.
Further, the church still exerts influence on me on an almost daily basis. Whether it be from the skewed views of sex/sexual repression that the wife and I have to deal with that impacts us nearly every day. Or my family that's still mormon. Or my wife's family who's not just Mormons with a capital M, they're all caps MORMON. Or my remaining friends on facebook who plaster half of my facebook with quotes about how wonderful the church is and how bad everyone else is. And seeing friends and family we care about struggle and be hurt by the church or the church's culture and it's so hard to see them having such a hard time and think to yourself "Or you could just let it go and accept yourself and be happy." But to know that's not an option for them or something that they recognize.
It's really really hard and I don't think you can really understand how difficult it is unless you've actually done it. I'd like to get to the point where I'm an ex-exmormon. But I'm not there. It comes and goes in waves. I'll go months thinking I'm cool I've moved on, only to get sucked back in somehow. It's frustrating, but I'm happy I'm at least not one of those people that actively attack the church like that Tom Philips guy. And I'm happy that I didn't just replace the church with another church. I've had several friends that left the mormon church to just become baptists. Now they have all the same problems but under a different name. Some of my wife's family really got into that Impact thing which to me is just leaving one cult-like organization and going to another culty organization. I'm glad for that at least.
BTW, if you're driving through Sacramento on your way to the Bay Area stop by Sacramento and visit me and the wife. Y'all are always welcomed here.
Thaedolus
Gold Member
We're coming up from the South, so we won't be driving through. If I make it up again sometime I will have to take you up on that.
Interesting anecdote from yesterday: in my wife's graduate program there are lot of people either from the midwest or back East who have little exposure to Mormonism...like, none at all. Arizonans seem to have a pretty good grasp on who they are and what they believe since the population here is something like 6% LDS, but the out of staters...they are so taken aback by some of it now that they're being exposed to it. Yesterday we did a little tour of some wineries North of Phoenix with two other couples, and the couple from Wisconsin knew I'm an ExMo and started asking me question after question. When my wife mentioned her sister's garments, they stopped and thought we were teasing them. After going into detail for a few minutes about what they are and represent, the girl stopped me and said "wait, you aren't making this up? You're being serious?"
It's really interesting how things just seemed normal to me growing up in the religion, and how weird and illogical it all seems from the outside...the more removed I get from it, the more I start to see the craziness of it all. Here I had this idea of our swelling ranks and the gospel being preached throughout all corners of the planet and I thought Mormons had this respected place among normal members of society...and once I'm out, it just looks like some fringe cult started by a guy who wanted to get that frontier strange. Ugh.
Interesting anecdote from yesterday: in my wife's graduate program there are lot of people either from the midwest or back East who have little exposure to Mormonism...like, none at all. Arizonans seem to have a pretty good grasp on who they are and what they believe since the population here is something like 6% LDS, but the out of staters...they are so taken aback by some of it now that they're being exposed to it. Yesterday we did a little tour of some wineries North of Phoenix with two other couples, and the couple from Wisconsin knew I'm an ExMo and started asking me question after question. When my wife mentioned her sister's garments, they stopped and thought we were teasing them. After going into detail for a few minutes about what they are and represent, the girl stopped me and said "wait, you aren't making this up? You're being serious?"
It's really interesting how things just seemed normal to me growing up in the religion, and how weird and illogical it all seems from the outside...the more removed I get from it, the more I start to see the craziness of it all. Here I had this idea of our swelling ranks and the gospel being preached throughout all corners of the planet and I thought Mormons had this respected place among normal members of society...and once I'm out, it just looks like some fringe cult started by a guy who wanted to get that frontier strange. Ugh.
This continues to vex me. The more removed I get the weirder it is. It continues to frustrate me, because I would love to be able to defend the religion of my parents. There is no way for me to explain mormonism to those that aren't already familiar that doesn't make believers look almost insane.
The good parts of mormonism are common to most religions, but the unique parts to mormonism are almost universally bad, and it's really really easy to see from the outside.
Even something like forever families, which sounds wonderful and is the hook that keeps so many pushing along, has a huge dark side because of "clarification" from Bednar's recent article. Belief in the sealing power and its status as unique to mormonism implicitly states that mormonism is the ONLY religion that will allow you to abide with your family bonds intact in the next life.
Not only that but for your family bonds to remain intact, all the people have to live celestial lives. Which means my grandmother's eternal happiness of having her grandkids near her is dependent on me being righteous. I can doom my saint of a grandmother to an eternal loss by having a beer every weekend and never returning to church.
It just doesn't make any sense at all. Any attempt for it to make sense is going to take a small novel.
I have to admit I'm pretty pissed at "progressive" or liberal mormons that don't speak up for change in the church. They were all willing to private message me in solidarity while my wife and I were being called names and our motivations impugned, when we were trying to openly discuss our issues with the Tad Callister law of chastity article from last year, but none of them had the balls to stand up for anything publicly. Yet they're content for their "enlightened" view of the gospel and their example as PHD holding mormons that still believe to be leveraged as an appeal to authority when truth claims are called into question, even when they have PMd me and stated privately that they doubt the majority of the truth claims of the church.
YEAH YEAH the church is worse for not having me in it, but I spoke up and was shouted down and all you did was hand me a note instead of standing up for what you actually believe.
I've never checked into this thread but speaking of being removed from the church I guess it's a good time. I was born into the church. Family has a long storied history with the church. Crossed the plains with Young and all that jazz.
It wasn't for me though. I never was interested. I made my escape when I was 12 or 13. A bit hard to do at that age when your family is as MORMON as it gets with dad in the bishopric. Haven't set foot inside a church in more than 20 years. Haven't talked with my father in at least 10 either but that's a whole different story.
It's hard for me to say I'm even exmormon because it was so long ago that it doesn't seem like I ever was one to begin with. Just a memory.
It wasn't for me though. I never was interested. I made my escape when I was 12 or 13. A bit hard to do at that age when your family is as MORMON as it gets with dad in the bishopric. Haven't set foot inside a church in more than 20 years. Haven't talked with my father in at least 10 either but that's a whole different story.
It's hard for me to say I'm even exmormon because it was so long ago that it doesn't seem like I ever was one to begin with. Just a memory.
For me, it's embarrassing. I'm ashamed that for 38 years I bought into the insanity. I feel stupid with members because I know how they're conditioned to look down on me now that I've left...and I feel stupid with nonmembers because I was a mindless sheep nearly all my life until this point.
It's a very weird place to be in.
Yeah I get it. I feel like in a way I'm handicapped in both realms. My mormon friends keep me at arms length because they either feel I'm a danger to them or they pity me. My non-mormon friends don't really understand where I come from either. Sucks man.
You know, that's very true but I find that it's even true in the church when you really get down to it. I mentioned it here when the whole "garments" video thing went down my mom and I were talking about it and she was like "They're just doing it so people wont say 'they're magical underwear!'" But when I said "They sorta are though" We proceeded to have a big conversation at the end of which she was like "Yeah, I guess you're right. Weird."
I've had tons of conversations like that with TBMs. Like when I say that the church is a church built on rituals they're always like "Nah man. You're wrong." but when we discuss it they're like "Yeah that is sorta weird." And there's loads of stuff like that when you pull people out of the "bubble" and they view it they see it's strange. Loads of stuff. So it's not just non-mormons. A lot of mormons
Now THIS shit right here. It infuriates me. I've had almost exactly the same crap happen. I remember trying to be "liberal mormon" or a "progressive mormon" or a "New Order Mormon" for a while and it all just fell apart. Now I call them "comfy blankie" mormons, they like to have their doubts and all that as much as any former mormon but they like to cuddle up in their comfy blankie of mormonism where they get to keep their friends and their family and all that. Then preach about integrity and being true to themselves when really they have neither. It's hard out there when you leave, you lose friends, you lose family, you're looked down upon. It's one thing to have doubts. It's an entirely other thing to be essentially not believe at all but play at belief because you can't face the reality of what happens if you're honest about your beliefs.
PaulExcellent
Member
Hey, guys. I don't know if I can post here, since I'm not part of the religion, but I kinda need to ask.
So, I'm in a communication class at Weber State and a guy in my group keeps insisting that I'm a "Mormon in hiding" and that if I joined the church, I would be a really powerful one and stuff of that sort.
At first I thought he was joking, but he's really trying to push me into the religion.
Like, I asked him if he wanted to hang out and he wanted to take me to Meet the Mormons. I declined.
The second time I asked, we walked around until I was led to the church building on campus, where we ended up sitting in a class where they discussed a bunch of things that didn't quite work with my beliefs.
Like, the guy is really cool and a great person to work with, but I don't want religion pushed down my throat. So... what should I say?
I might not respond quickly since I got an essay to write. >.>
So, I'm in a communication class at Weber State and a guy in my group keeps insisting that I'm a "Mormon in hiding" and that if I joined the church, I would be a really powerful one and stuff of that sort.
At first I thought he was joking, but he's really trying to push me into the religion.
Like, I asked him if he wanted to hang out and he wanted to take me to Meet the Mormons. I declined.
The second time I asked, we walked around until I was led to the church building on campus, where we ended up sitting in a class where they discussed a bunch of things that didn't quite work with my beliefs.
Like, the guy is really cool and a great person to work with, but I don't want religion pushed down my throat. So... what should I say?
I might not respond quickly since I got an essay to write. >.>
AlteredBeast
Fork 'em, Sparky!
Just tell him you appreciate his concern but you aren't interested in becoming a member of the church. In the end, he is trying to fulfill his duty to his beliefs and means no ill-will towards you. If he doesn't respect that, he never will and should not be associated with.
I have never pushed my beliefs on any of my friends or random passers by, but they learned to respect my beliefs and that always should go both ways.
I have never pushed my beliefs on any of my friends or random passers by, but they learned to respect my beliefs and that always should go both ways.
PaulExcellent
Member
That's what I thought. I mean, it's nice and all, but I don't see why he must push it every time that we talk. I mean, my beliefs are a bit skewed because of my background, but I don't push it. Hell, I don't talk about it. lol
I agree. Tell him that you're flattered (which you should be). But aren't interested.
Thaedolus
Gold Member
I had a #tendermercy today. My wife was out getting coffee for us early this morning while I worked on my laptop. My mom came downstairs me asked me where she had gone. I just said she was out getting coffee. My mom said "oh...well we don't have a coffee maker but if you wanted to get some instant stuff or whatever to have here you can, don't worry about it."
In all seriousness, I think that took some effort on her part and that meant something to me. Maybe next time I'll pack the Keurig and bring some hot chocolate cups too.
In all seriousness, I think that took some effort on her part and that meant something to me. Maybe next time I'll pack the Keurig and bring some hot chocolate cups too.
Hoooooooooooooookay. Where to begin? Where to begin. Well, let me say positive and happy things first in the hopes they offset the maelstrom of unhappy that follows in this post.
Good things: The little bro is out there on his mission, having a good time from the sound of it, and the drastic differences between his mission and mine have me reexamining how much I took for granted back then. Just nice to spend time thinking about it.
I have a nice ward with a good bishopric. Great people, really. Almost never feel the normal pressures I do in school wards here, and that's something I'm grateful for.
Been having some good, private religious experiences, which is good, because I've needed them lately.
Okay, now to the meat of it.
FUCK. FAMILY. FOUNDATIONS. Please. Cuz I'm running out of fucks to give for this class. Holy shit. I don't mean to be extremist, but this is possibly the most Satanic experience I have ever, ever had. How do I even begin to describe to you what a travesty this class is?
I mean I've provided snippits and tidbits and soundbites, like "All of you who don't have a two-parent family know deep down that you wish you did." and "Gaming leads to porn, porn leads to murder, murder leads to Ted Bundy." And "Jesus wants you to suffer so you can be close to him" and by God a sheer number of other atonement denying bullshitisms that I can't even think anymore about which one of them is the absolute most upsetting one of all time.
I am presented with two choices, really, in how to go about sharing this with you. Do I just devolve into a screaming frenzy of why in God's name should any human being ever be forced to suffer through this hell of an hour twice a week every week just to get his fucking diploma; or should I try to at least paint to you a picture of why this is an awful class all around?
I'll try for the second, but I reserve the right to completely and utterly collapse in on the first for any reason at any time because this class is the work of the Devil.
First, we don't learn anything. I'm all for a class period or so a semester, a month tops, where the teacher spends the day bullshitting his way through class, because he's got to do that from time to time to keep us entertained and on his side. All fine by me. Sometimes the mood strikes and you make a last minute change to the curriculum for any reason and it doesn't work out as you'd envisioned. But this is every class. This is my reality. This is the face of the CES' new religion courses, if what I'm lead to believe is true.
You see, in your run of the mill religion course here on campus, you either get an additional Sunday School class on say, what the fuck Isaiah was on about in this chapter, or you get to actually learn some in depth stuff (albeit sanctioned by the Church) about say, what Jesus is talking about in this chapter. From time to time these spawn legitimately good discussions about doctrines or teachings, or the kinds of questions young adults in the Church have that have been painstakingly not answered their whole lives. I've had some good times in those classes.
But Family Foundations is about pretty much none of that. We don't actually study the Scriptures. We don't even study the Proclamation to the World in class. We talk about: How Gay Marriage is destroying [families, states' rights, the ensured survival of the human race], How video games are destroying [men, families, virtue], how civil rights are destroying [men, families, virtue, states' rights], how women are just so gosh darn different from men (SLAMS PALMS ON DESK: BY! DIVINE! DESIGN!), Pornography, Emotional Pornography (This is just for women, and according to the teacher is done by reading Twilight or something), and boy don't you wish you were married right now?
We memorize the Proclamation to the World, and at the end of the Semester we have to pass it off, because I guess we're in Seminary still (well I mean, most of us ARE single, which makes us children by default)? We read talks outside of class and our teacher finds a way to immediately bring them back to Porn, Gay Marriage, Emotional Porn, Regular Porn again, and How Boys and Girls are Different (BY! DIVINE! DESIGN!).
But that's all it ever is. There are slight variations from time to time, but never anything major. Never anything educational, unless you want to talk about how the Manual of the Church Says I am Right and You are Going to Hell.
Second, "discussion," the bulk of the class, amounts to nothing more than testimonials backing the contorted view on the above topics that the professor has provided. You cannot, after all, question anything. And there are a number of reasons why I would strongly advise you against ever questioning anything, or why you are maneuvered into not doing so.
The first of these is that everything is presented to you as being God's Revealed Will. Now, there are things you will run into in your time as a Church member that are undeniably the stated view of the Church as the Will of God and you're not going to be able to fight that, but I'm of the opinion these things are large things, like Jesus is the literal Son of God things. Not "Jesus can't help you if you're not presently spotless" things. But our Professor always finds ways to emphasize that whatever he's throwing at us is absolutely God's immutable position on things. For awhile it was "And this is what the Brethren say!" but last week we were treated to "BY! DIVINE! DESIGN!" about a thousand times in one class period.
How do you fight a God? Or rather, how do you fight someone's perception of God? You simply don't, and in most cases I wouldn't dream of doing so, but I confess to balking when a school teacher presumes to know what God thinks of what I do with my spare time between the fifteen hours a week of unimportant nonsense tasks he drops on my lap.
The second of these is that the patented Still, Small Voice is employed in the class. I am not referring here to the Voice of the Holy Spirit, because I think that the member of the Godhead tasked with persuading humanity doesn't need to resort to parlor tricks to convince you. But I served as a Missionary long enough to know that sometimes inflections of your voice can help set a mood. Now, doing this is all well and good, but so is recognizing it and deciding if I care to join the mood or not. The real thing is, though, when does this inflection ever get employed in any other class? Never. You won't hear your Biology professor suddenly lower his voice, choke up a bit, and then soothingly tell you about how cells divide.
This is sort of a part of a greater problem on campus and around town, really. Whether it be criticism of School Policy "BUT YOU SIGNED THE HONOR CODE!" of President Clark "BUT ELDER BEDNAR AND PRESIDENT EYRING USED TO BE SCHOOL PRESIDENTS!" or any other thing. It's a litany of impassible walls, almost painstakingly designed to discourage dissent so that you will think change is impossible.
Third, related to the first, is that homework serves no purpose. You write in a journal about what conference talk you read and mark the talk in the binder you had to pay for for no real reason. It hasn't been collected, and I don't really want it to be, but what purpose does this homework serve? Nothing we read is discussed in class. Not really. Nobody is going to remember that Elder Hales said that we need to have the courage to love those who are against us. They're going to remember he said that we shouldn't come down from our walls, and not remember that the wall he described was the wall of loving other people indiscriminately.
Fourth, and final until I formulate further, is that this entire class is a farce. I'll beat this drum for as long as I can, but nobody at BYU or BYUH takes this fucking shit. Nothing about this is related to my major. Nothing stated in this class is new, and I'll throw down the gauntlet here and disavow any single part of it as true. Because this is the most warped, frustrated, twisted version of the Gospel I have ever heard.
I'm telling you this is a class where the teacher teaches that Jesus wants you to suffer, that sins leave permanent scars because the Atonement cannot heal you, and that your only chance at being saved is becoming exactly the way the class wants you to be. If forcing you into a mold as the only means of salvation isn't the picture of Satanism as understood by the Church, I don't know what is.
All of it. Every single aspect of it, really. All of it unravels by simply asking yourself: If family foundations is necessary, true, and righteous, why isn't it taught everywhere? Why is this vital information only taught in one class on one school campus? And if this information is already taught there as the explanation for why it isn't forced down the throat of the entire Church, then why is it required? If I am learning this all over the Church, then why am I forced to do it again here?
And I remembered something to add:
Fifth is that the class assumes overmuch about you. And I don't mean just the instructors assuming that deep down you wish you had had two parents even though they can't know shit about you or your life. I'm talking about how the class assigns you "Provident Living Projects" which are biweekly projects where you spend every single day of those two weeks doing some activity ostensibly designed toward preparing you to have a family of your own.
Each of these activities more or less requires you have a significant other, a spouse, children, or someone else to do them with. Or that you spend your time fantasizing about what it would be like to have one of them. The class assumes you want a family and urgently browbeats you for daring to think that at the moment you'd rather not have one. You need to be desperate for companionship and screaming babies and you need to be now and so help your grade if you aren't!
Except, Sixth, attendance is all that really matters. If ever there were a skeezy class layout, it was this. You have to come to class for lectures, or you lose anywhere from 5 to 15 points. And to make it even more transparent, if you miss like, 5 times, you flunk the class, no questions asked. See, Jesus doesn't heal you of sin, and he delights in your suffering, but you better be turning in five guys a night for looking at porn so you can maybe accidentally earn a healing from your physical illness so you can be here in class lest you be forced to repeat this shit again.
I had more, but I've forgotten it, so I'll level and say that originally I didn't want to share any of this, and relented from doing so in the hopes that silence would strangle my anger back into submission. Tonight I had the immense honor of having a girl ask my roommate if I was gay since I never went on any dates, and flipped my lid. Because fuck the entire fucking culture that caused that line of thought to happen, and fuck it once more for good measure for the riotous bout of laughter that accompanied her fucking question.
And Family Foundations may not be the cause of the culture that created that scenario, but it sure as fuck is an extremely pronounced symptom of it.
Good things: The little bro is out there on his mission, having a good time from the sound of it, and the drastic differences between his mission and mine have me reexamining how much I took for granted back then. Just nice to spend time thinking about it.
I have a nice ward with a good bishopric. Great people, really. Almost never feel the normal pressures I do in school wards here, and that's something I'm grateful for.
Been having some good, private religious experiences, which is good, because I've needed them lately.
Okay, now to the meat of it.
FUCK. FAMILY. FOUNDATIONS. Please. Cuz I'm running out of fucks to give for this class. Holy shit. I don't mean to be extremist, but this is possibly the most Satanic experience I have ever, ever had. How do I even begin to describe to you what a travesty this class is?
I mean I've provided snippits and tidbits and soundbites, like "All of you who don't have a two-parent family know deep down that you wish you did." and "Gaming leads to porn, porn leads to murder, murder leads to Ted Bundy." And "Jesus wants you to suffer so you can be close to him" and by God a sheer number of other atonement denying bullshitisms that I can't even think anymore about which one of them is the absolute most upsetting one of all time.
I am presented with two choices, really, in how to go about sharing this with you. Do I just devolve into a screaming frenzy of why in God's name should any human being ever be forced to suffer through this hell of an hour twice a week every week just to get his fucking diploma; or should I try to at least paint to you a picture of why this is an awful class all around?
I'll try for the second, but I reserve the right to completely and utterly collapse in on the first for any reason at any time because this class is the work of the Devil.
First, we don't learn anything. I'm all for a class period or so a semester, a month tops, where the teacher spends the day bullshitting his way through class, because he's got to do that from time to time to keep us entertained and on his side. All fine by me. Sometimes the mood strikes and you make a last minute change to the curriculum for any reason and it doesn't work out as you'd envisioned. But this is every class. This is my reality. This is the face of the CES' new religion courses, if what I'm lead to believe is true.
You see, in your run of the mill religion course here on campus, you either get an additional Sunday School class on say, what the fuck Isaiah was on about in this chapter, or you get to actually learn some in depth stuff (albeit sanctioned by the Church) about say, what Jesus is talking about in this chapter. From time to time these spawn legitimately good discussions about doctrines or teachings, or the kinds of questions young adults in the Church have that have been painstakingly not answered their whole lives. I've had some good times in those classes.
But Family Foundations is about pretty much none of that. We don't actually study the Scriptures. We don't even study the Proclamation to the World in class. We talk about: How Gay Marriage is destroying [families, states' rights, the ensured survival of the human race], How video games are destroying [men, families, virtue], how civil rights are destroying [men, families, virtue, states' rights], how women are just so gosh darn different from men (SLAMS PALMS ON DESK: BY! DIVINE! DESIGN!), Pornography, Emotional Pornography (This is just for women, and according to the teacher is done by reading Twilight or something), and boy don't you wish you were married right now?
We memorize the Proclamation to the World, and at the end of the Semester we have to pass it off, because I guess we're in Seminary still (well I mean, most of us ARE single, which makes us children by default)? We read talks outside of class and our teacher finds a way to immediately bring them back to Porn, Gay Marriage, Emotional Porn, Regular Porn again, and How Boys and Girls are Different (BY! DIVINE! DESIGN!).
But that's all it ever is. There are slight variations from time to time, but never anything major. Never anything educational, unless you want to talk about how the Manual of the Church Says I am Right and You are Going to Hell.
Second, "discussion," the bulk of the class, amounts to nothing more than testimonials backing the contorted view on the above topics that the professor has provided. You cannot, after all, question anything. And there are a number of reasons why I would strongly advise you against ever questioning anything, or why you are maneuvered into not doing so.
The first of these is that everything is presented to you as being God's Revealed Will. Now, there are things you will run into in your time as a Church member that are undeniably the stated view of the Church as the Will of God and you're not going to be able to fight that, but I'm of the opinion these things are large things, like Jesus is the literal Son of God things. Not "Jesus can't help you if you're not presently spotless" things. But our Professor always finds ways to emphasize that whatever he's throwing at us is absolutely God's immutable position on things. For awhile it was "And this is what the Brethren say!" but last week we were treated to "BY! DIVINE! DESIGN!" about a thousand times in one class period.
How do you fight a God? Or rather, how do you fight someone's perception of God? You simply don't, and in most cases I wouldn't dream of doing so, but I confess to balking when a school teacher presumes to know what God thinks of what I do with my spare time between the fifteen hours a week of unimportant nonsense tasks he drops on my lap.
The second of these is that the patented Still, Small Voice is employed in the class. I am not referring here to the Voice of the Holy Spirit, because I think that the member of the Godhead tasked with persuading humanity doesn't need to resort to parlor tricks to convince you. But I served as a Missionary long enough to know that sometimes inflections of your voice can help set a mood. Now, doing this is all well and good, but so is recognizing it and deciding if I care to join the mood or not. The real thing is, though, when does this inflection ever get employed in any other class? Never. You won't hear your Biology professor suddenly lower his voice, choke up a bit, and then soothingly tell you about how cells divide.
This is sort of a part of a greater problem on campus and around town, really. Whether it be criticism of School Policy "BUT YOU SIGNED THE HONOR CODE!" of President Clark "BUT ELDER BEDNAR AND PRESIDENT EYRING USED TO BE SCHOOL PRESIDENTS!" or any other thing. It's a litany of impassible walls, almost painstakingly designed to discourage dissent so that you will think change is impossible.
Third, related to the first, is that homework serves no purpose. You write in a journal about what conference talk you read and mark the talk in the binder you had to pay for for no real reason. It hasn't been collected, and I don't really want it to be, but what purpose does this homework serve? Nothing we read is discussed in class. Not really. Nobody is going to remember that Elder Hales said that we need to have the courage to love those who are against us. They're going to remember he said that we shouldn't come down from our walls, and not remember that the wall he described was the wall of loving other people indiscriminately.
Fourth, and final until I formulate further, is that this entire class is a farce. I'll beat this drum for as long as I can, but nobody at BYU or BYUH takes this fucking shit. Nothing about this is related to my major. Nothing stated in this class is new, and I'll throw down the gauntlet here and disavow any single part of it as true. Because this is the most warped, frustrated, twisted version of the Gospel I have ever heard.
I'm telling you this is a class where the teacher teaches that Jesus wants you to suffer, that sins leave permanent scars because the Atonement cannot heal you, and that your only chance at being saved is becoming exactly the way the class wants you to be. If forcing you into a mold as the only means of salvation isn't the picture of Satanism as understood by the Church, I don't know what is.
All of it. Every single aspect of it, really. All of it unravels by simply asking yourself: If family foundations is necessary, true, and righteous, why isn't it taught everywhere? Why is this vital information only taught in one class on one school campus? And if this information is already taught there as the explanation for why it isn't forced down the throat of the entire Church, then why is it required? If I am learning this all over the Church, then why am I forced to do it again here?
And I remembered something to add:
Fifth is that the class assumes overmuch about you. And I don't mean just the instructors assuming that deep down you wish you had had two parents even though they can't know shit about you or your life. I'm talking about how the class assigns you "Provident Living Projects" which are biweekly projects where you spend every single day of those two weeks doing some activity ostensibly designed toward preparing you to have a family of your own.
Each of these activities more or less requires you have a significant other, a spouse, children, or someone else to do them with. Or that you spend your time fantasizing about what it would be like to have one of them. The class assumes you want a family and urgently browbeats you for daring to think that at the moment you'd rather not have one. You need to be desperate for companionship and screaming babies and you need to be now and so help your grade if you aren't!
Except, Sixth, attendance is all that really matters. If ever there were a skeezy class layout, it was this. You have to come to class for lectures, or you lose anywhere from 5 to 15 points. And to make it even more transparent, if you miss like, 5 times, you flunk the class, no questions asked. See, Jesus doesn't heal you of sin, and he delights in your suffering, but you better be turning in five guys a night for looking at porn so you can maybe accidentally earn a healing from your physical illness so you can be here in class lest you be forced to repeat this shit again.
I had more, but I've forgotten it, so I'll level and say that originally I didn't want to share any of this, and relented from doing so in the hopes that silence would strangle my anger back into submission. Tonight I had the immense honor of having a girl ask my roommate if I was gay since I never went on any dates, and flipped my lid. Because fuck the entire fucking culture that caused that line of thought to happen, and fuck it once more for good measure for the riotous bout of laughter that accompanied her fucking question.
And Family Foundations may not be the cause of the culture that created that scenario, but it sure as fuck is an extremely pronounced symptom of it.
Thaedolus
Gold Member
Dude...I made a conscious decision to not attend a church school back in the day, so I can't really 100% understand what you're dealing with, but I know that formulating my relationship between my wife and myself has been one of the most amazing experiences I've ever had. She's been great at opening herself to my needs, and in return I open myself to hers. There are no external forces telling us what we should or shouldn't do, or what is or is not appropriate in ***OUR*** relationship.
At the end of the day, the family you decide to make is yours and yours alone. Don't let anyone else tell you how to do it. Grit your teeth and get through it (this class) now if you have to, but keep your own identity and idea of what you want. I can't express enough how important it is to be open and honest with your partner when it comes to each other's needs...being focused on your partner's needs, and allowing them to be focused on yours without a false external influence is what marriage and companionship is really about. Don't let someone else's expectations influence your relationship.
I'm not some seasoned pro at marriage, but I have a great relationship with my wife which has been for growing for 5 years built on honesty, openness and trust. Don't let anything (like the pretense that comes with certain beliefs) come between that. I'm not saying you can't do these things within the LDS paradigm, but make sure you prioritize them over the appearance of righteousness or whatever.
I might be getting a little preachy in my cups tonight, but I really want the best for you bro. Keep your critical eye on things and make the best decisions for yourself, not what you think others would want.
At the end of the day, the family you decide to make is yours and yours alone. Don't let anyone else tell you how to do it. Grit your teeth and get through it (this class) now if you have to, but keep your own identity and idea of what you want. I can't express enough how important it is to be open and honest with your partner when it comes to each other's needs...being focused on your partner's needs, and allowing them to be focused on yours without a false external influence is what marriage and companionship is really about. Don't let someone else's expectations influence your relationship.
I'm not some seasoned pro at marriage, but I have a great relationship with my wife which has been for growing for 5 years built on honesty, openness and trust. Don't let anything (like the pretense that comes with certain beliefs) come between that. I'm not saying you can't do these things within the LDS paradigm, but make sure you prioritize them over the appearance of righteousness or whatever.
I might be getting a little preachy in my cups tonight, but I really want the best for you bro. Keep your critical eye on things and make the best decisions for yourself, not what you think others would want.
Thanks for the encouragement. This place has just really, really gotten under my (admittedly thin) skin of late, and it's cracking me up a bit. It's ironic, really. I came here because I thought that BYU would make me stronger and better, but I find myself being worn down by it more and more.
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