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[Maledict]

Is there a mechanism to go independent without a referendum?

Nope. There's not even a mechanism with a referendum unless Westminster agrees. And it won't, so any referendum won't be legally binding. Scotland won't declare unilateral secession, so god knows where it leaves us.

Personally, I'm hoping:

1) Labour chose a pro-eu leader who can actually win votes
2) sturgeon pushes ahead with her threats of a referendum
3) general election is called
4) Labour wins, and with snp backing stops the article 50 process and the referendum in Scotland.

 

[nelsonroyale]

UK can survive without Scotland

Hmm geographically speaking it would look a bit silly though.

 

[Kabouter]

Hmm geographically speaking it would look a bit silly though.

You sound like ThoseDeafMutes whenever I play Paradox games with him. This obsession with neat borders, smh

 

[trembli0s]

No chance of Scotland gaining favorable terms into the Euro with Spain and the Catalonia issue unresolved.

 

[Acorn]

Nope. There's not even a mechanism with a referendum unless Westminster agrees. And it won't, so any referendum won't be legally binding. Scotland won't declare unilateral secession, so god knows where it leaves us.

Personally, I'm hoping:

1) Labour chose a pro-eu leader who can actually win votes
2) sturgeon pushes ahead with her threats of a referendum
3) general election is called
4) Labour wins, and with snp backing stops the article 50 process and the referendum in Scotland.

If we vote to leave without daddy Westminster they'll still need to listen or face huge civil unrest.

 

[Tak3n]

ummm Spain have said they will block this? also have the EU said they will take Scotland?

 

[nelsonroyale]

You sound like ThoseDeafMutes whenever I play Paradox games with him. This obsession with neat borders, smh

Lesser Britain here we come!

Maledict: The SNP are even less likely to form an alliance with Labour sans Corbyn. Personally, I hope Labour dissolves into two parties. It is clearly not a unified entity. Corbyn was voted in by the party members. He clearly has some support, if not in the elected members itself. Right now it is a farse of a party and has deserved every thing it has gotten in terms of public distain.

 

[AHA-Lambda]

Davidson is already out and about

The leader of the Scottish Conservatives Ruth Davidson however came out strongly against a second referendum in a hastily arranged speech outside her party's headquarters following Sturgeon's address.

Davidson said: "I do not believe a second independence referendum will help us achieve that stability nor is it in the best interests of Scotland.

"The 1.6m votes cast in this referendum in favour of Remain do not wipe away the 2m [No] votes that we cast less than two years ago.

"Also, we do not address the challenges of leaving the European Union by leaving our own union of nations, our biggest market and our closest friends. I believe in Scotland's place within the United Kingdom today as much as ever.

She went on to say she believes the "strength, security and durability" of the United Kingdom will endure.

http://stv.tv/news/politics/1358515-sturgeon-second-indyref-is-on-the-table-following-brexit/

 

[TDLink]

Hmm geographically speaking it would look a bit silly though.

Not that that matters one bit for anything whatsoever, but don't you consider how Ireland/N Ireland currently looks to be equally geographically silly?

 

[Acorn]

ummm Spain have said they will bloke this? also have the EU said they will take Scotland?

Don't give a shit don't want to be part of the right wing cesspool.

 

[popo]

SNP was formed, and still exists, on the premise of attaining Scottish independence.

Once it actually formed a government it made a good go of actually running the country, and Sturgeon is a clever politician, but it was never off the table.

Would not expect it any time soon though - the figures didn't make sense before oil crashed. I suspect the SNP will call for a ref at every opportunity over the next few years with the hope that when it finally gets the vote (maybe after the next general election) conditions will have stabilised and a healthy "yes" vote can be assured.

I am English and was always a unionist. However, that was mainly self interest in my belief that a split would cause economic chaos. Well we did that to ourselves anyway - so good luck my Scottish friends. You go be you.

 

[StrawberryJam]

Davidson is already out and about



http://stv.tv/news/politics/1358515-sturgeon-second-indyref-is-on-the-table-following-brexit/

Just stop Ruth. We're already gone.

 

[ferrasvansen]

Nope. There's not even a mechanism with a referendum unless Westminster agrees. And it won't, so any referendum won't be legally binding. Scotland won't declare unilateral secession, so god knows where it leaves us.

Personally, I'm hoping:

1) Labour chose a pro-eu leader who can actually win votes
2) sturgeon pushes ahead with her threats of a referendum
3) general election is called
4) Labour wins, and with snp backing stops the article 50 process and the referendum in Scotland.

Yeah I fear a very messy endgame, but UK is finished, torn apart by a fear of immigrants and disillusioned labour voters. I was reading articles all over from no voters all of the same ilk, offer us Independence with an intention to Join the EU and it's a yes, just do not rush. Labour with a good strong leader could easily hoover up a lot of the pro EU support down south, just like the Snp, since they have nowhere else to go.

 

[Tak3n]

Don't give a shit don't want to be part of the right wing cesspool.

Well hold on, if the UK say you are not using the pound, and you can not join the EU, you going to go your own currency

 

[kharma45]

Sure but the idea is out there now and it's not out of the realm of possibility. I don't think N. Ireland matters much to the strength of the UK either way though. Losing Scotland would be a big blow and is the most likely to leave at this point.

The idea has always been out there. It's Sinn Fein's raison d'etre in Northern Ireland.

 

[Acorn]

Davidson is already out and about



http://stv.tv/news/politics/1358515-sturgeon-second-indyref-is-on-the-table-following-brexit/

Yawn. If she honestly doesn't think that leaving Europe is a big enough change for another ref then she must be even more intellectually dishonest than the regular tory.

 

[ferrasvansen]

Just stop Ruth. We're already gone.

Yeah let her say that when Boris is in charge, cannot believe she does not understand the strength of feeling, judging by her hasty speech sounds like she is panicking.

 

[Acorn]

Well hold on, if the UK say you are not using the pound, and you can not join the EU, you going to go your own currency

Zero shits don't want to be dragged down by England's shire voters anymore. We're facing pain in or out the UK. So I'd rather it be out.

 

[Hazzuh]

Genuinely heartbroken that not only did this EU vote mean worse off lives for most of the people of the UK for the foreseeable future but also the end of the country as we know it. Can't blame Scottish folk for leaving at all though.

 

[Dash_Riprock]

Is there a mechanism to go independent without a referendum?

Well, you could always try what certain states in my country did 150 years ago.

Didn't work so well for them , though.

 

[Cromwell]

The independence referendum should be held now while the instability is already happening. No reason to wait, the terms to rejoin EU will only get worse.

Just rip the band-aid immediately, let them off the sinking ship. Northern Ireland too. Why not London as well if the U.K. is being destroyed before our eyes.

 

[Funky Papa]

ummm Spain have said they will block this? also have the EU said they will take Scotland?

Spain is a wildcard. It's in our best interest to gain (or retain) access to another market, but one of the official arguments against Catalonian separatists is that they would automatically lose their membership. It's complicated.

 

[nOoblet16]

Nope. There's not even a mechanism with a referendum unless Westminster agrees. And it won't, so any referendum won't be legally binding. Scotland won't declare unilateral secession, so god knows where it leaves us.

Personally, I'm hoping:

1) Labour chose a pro-eu leader who can actually win votes
2) sturgeon pushes ahead with her threats of a referendum
3) general election is called
4) Labour wins, and with snp backing stops the article 50 process and the referendum in Scotland.

I want this.
But on a scale of 0-0.01 how likely is it to happen?

 

[Acorn]

Well, you could always try what certain states in my country did 150 years ago.

Didn't work so well for them , though.

Because a progressive movement is at all similar to southern American racists. Yeah...

 

[Acorn]

I want this.
But on a scale of 0-0.01 how likely is it to happen?

-12 probabilty

 

[Cromwell]

Northern Ireland aren't, only one party is calling for it.

Nothing is off the table. If Scotland does it and the economy continues to tank, I guarantee NI will.

 

[gmoran]

Few things:

I don't understand why so many of you are all warm and cuddly for the EU? Its fundamentally un-democratic and is completely dysfunctional.

Scotland would probably be forced to adopt the Euro. Really guys, you want to do that? Really. Well what ever floats your boat. The Euro is fundamentally FUBAR'd, keeping it going is going to be a major headache for years, its not even clear that the Euro can ultimately be saved.

Mortgages are in Pounds Sterling, lenders have no obligation to switch over to Euros. Could be fun.

Scotland has no power to call a referendum. They can call a fake one, but its fake, so would simply put pressure on UK to allow self determination. Given that leaving EU is going to be a stupendous amount of work, I can't see UK Gov being too keen on IndyRef2 any time soon.

SNP has no mandate for IndyRef2. Yep they could ask the Greens to help them get legislation through Scottish parliament, but that's not quite the same thing. I'm not saying UK Gov would stand in the way of self-determination, but it wouldn't rush to help you get that legislation through Westminster: bigger fish to fry and all that.

An independent Scotland would be immediately insolvent as it currently operates. North Sea oil is never coming back as it was--fracking has seen to that--so there will no longer be that Resources cushion. Sure, Scotland could still be independent and a great nation, it would just require a substantial tightening of the belt, you all up for that? Have a real hard think about what that would actually mean.



At this moment in time Nicola Sturgeon is throwing her toys out of the pram. If you all feel the same in 6 or 7 years time then your chance will come again. However by then you will all have chilled out a bit, and I'm guessing the economic realities will then prevail. And as for joining the EU, I reckon that institution will look even less attractive by then.

 

[Hazzuh]

I really don't think NI will leave. If nothing else, the economy of NI is super dependent on the rest of the UK. A huge number of people there are employed by the British state or subsidised in some way.

 

[kharma45]

I really don't think NI will leave. If nothing else, the economy of NI is super dependent on the rest of the UK. A huge number of people there are employed by the British state or subsidised in some way.

About a third of the workforce is public sector.

Nothing is off the table. If Scotland does it and the economy continues to tank, I guarantee NI will.

If being key.

Support for a UI isn't anywhere near close to winning if a border poll is called. It's still a long way off.

 

[Ether_Snake]

No chance of Scotland gaining favorable terms into the Euro with Spain and the Catalonia issue unresolved.

That will be the key reason why it won't happen. The Scots will be told they'll leave the UK only to remain still out of the EU for years, and that will frighten enough people to vote to remain.

 

[MassiveNights]

Oh cool, condescending posts from people who have no knowledge of the situation.

 

[AGoodODST]

I mean, the EU isn't fundamentally undemocratic. That line of ignorant thinking is exactly why Leave won. Sad.

 

[Acorn]

I mean, the EU isn't fundamentally undemocratic. That line of ignorant thinking is exactly why Leave won. Sad.

Shhh don't let facts get in the way of b.s. Let them continue to ignore elections.

 

[gmoran]

I mean, the EU isn't fundamentally undemocratic. That line of ignorant thinking is exactly why Leave won. Sad.

* No European Demos
* Executive power by political appointment
* MEPs: no power to propose or repeal legislation
* undermines democratic accountability

 

[PJV3]

Won't Spain be more relaxed about Scotland leaving over being dragged out of the EU?

That is a big difference to the last referendum.

 

[ferrasvansen]

* No European Demos
* Executive power by political appointment
* MEPs: no power to propose or repeal legislation
* undermines democratic accountability

Jeez compared to the house of Snobs and the fact we are continually ruled by a government we will never vote for again, I'd rather have those options than the shite we have now.

 

[AGoodODST]

* No European Demos
* Executive power by political appointment
* MEPs: no power to propose or repeal legislation
* undermines democratic accountability

So not fundamentally undemocratic then.

 

[Stallion Dan]

Too soon for any of this, need see how UK copes when been out of EU for several years before can make an informed decision if it is right for Scotland or not.

Not to mention seeing what happens to EU in wake of UK leaving.

 

[Xieldos]

Extremely easy to point out those who don't live in Scotland or are familiar with Scottish politics in this thread

 

[gmoran]

Jeez compared to the house of Snobs and the fact we are continually ruled by a government we will never vote for again, I'd rather have those options than the shite we have now.

Brill good one, I prefer true democracy myself: which we actually do have in the UK, pretty good actually once we escape clutches of EU.

But if you prefer pretend democracy?

 

[Auctopus]

Can they let the English vote on this one so we can help them get as far away from this clusterfuck as possible?

 

[AGoodODST]

Brill good one, I prefer true democracy myself: which we actually do have in the UK, pretty good actually once we escape clutches of EU.

But if you prefer pretend democracy?

Do you even know what democracy is? So far you've shown a complete misunderstanding of how the EU works and the U.K.

Because Farage and The clown says it is.

"The British public has had enough of facts!"

 

[Steve.1981]

I see the "no mandate" nonsense has started again already. We went through this argument already, before the last independence referendum. I'm not even giving it the time of day.

Anyway, good to see Nicola Sturgeon taking this stance. We (Scotland) have to get out sooner or later. We never voted for this Tory government and we never voted to leave the EU. She's right, what's happening to us is democratically unacceptable.

 

[Aureon]

* No European Demos
* Executive power by political appointment
* MEPs: no power to propose or repeal legislation
* undermines democratic accountability

Virtually all EU institutions are either nominated by country elected officials or elected directly
how the hell is it undemocratic?

 

[Acorn]

Virtually all EU institutions are either nominated by country elected officials or elected directly
how the hell is it undemocratic?

Because Farage and The clown says it is.

 

[ferrasvansen]

Because Farage and The clown says it is.

Yeah good old Nigel, wonder what village he will be singing his nazi songs in tonight, old habits die hard.

 

[Maledict]

I see the "no mandate" nonsense has started again already. We went through this argument already, before the last independence referendum. I'm not even giving it the time of day.

Anyway, good to see Nicola Sturgeon taking this stance. We (Scotland) have to get out sooner or later. We never voted for this Tory government and we never voted to leave the EU. She's right, what's happening to us is democratically unacceptable.

Whilst I absolutely agree with Scotland leaving (and wish I could!), this result is absolutely democratically acceptable. I can't stand it personally, but this is how democracy works. Lots of remain areas were outvoted by even more leave areas. Any democracy, even down to the village level, will see some block of people outvoted by a larger block. What happened isn't in any way undemocratic.

Reason to leave? Definitely. But not undemocratic.

 

[Cynar]

The referendum in Scotland had a higher turnout and larger gap of votes than the EU referendum.



If Scottish independence gets a second referendum, so should the EU referendum.

You don't make sense. The Scottish referendum changes a lot of things as they are being removed from the EU against their will. The rest of the country single handedly removed themselves last night from the EU and doesn't have the same circumstances as the original Scottish referendum.

 

[gollumsluvslave]

J.K. Rowling has already tweeted on this and her views will echo many Socts who voted NO last time, with EU membership being one of, if not THE main issue that swayed them.

https://twitter.com/jk_rowling/status/746214995763953667

@BBCJamesCook "Staunch opponent" implies I was pro-union no matter what, which was never the case. Many no voters will think again now.

And she is absolutely spot on.

 

[daxy]

* No European Demos
* Executive power by political appointment
* MEPs: no power to propose or repeal legislation
* undermines democratic accountability

Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong. Try again.

* The European demos are EU citizens

* National governments (in the European Council) propose their political representatives to the Commission. They elect the Commission president. Commission president chooses from the Council's proposed representatives and what their portfolios will be (i.e. what Directorate General they will head, which are essentially EU 'ministries'). Needs to be approved by Council and EP. This is done the same way as most European governments elect the heads of their own ministries. Representative democracy.

* The European Parliament, under the ordinary legislative and consultation procedure can approve, amend or repeal legislation. The other procedures are used relatively rarely. The EP can also request the Commission to propose legislation.

* Is democratically accountable. The only reason it 'feels' unaccountable to so many is because they don't care enough to vote and then complain.