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Steve.1981
Unconfirmed Member
It doesn't matter how the UK or EU cope in the coming years. Scotland voted and the result is that we want to remain in the EU, but are being taken out. That's it. End of story.
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Nicola Sturgeon: 2nd Independence Referendum IS on the table - supported by manifesto
- Thread starter Pankratous
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It doesn't matter how the UK or EU cope in the coming years. Scotland voted and the result is that we want to remain in the EU, but are being taken out. That's it. End of story.
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Steve.1981
Unconfirmed Member
My country voted to remain a part of the EU. We're not a town or a county or a shire, we're a damn country. We are being taken out of the EU against our will. It is democratically unacceptable.
gollumsluvslave
Member
And also the 2014 referendum, EU membership / uncertainty was a massive part of the Better Together campaign
Just read it and weep...
https://twitter.com/search?q=better...&ref_src=twsrc^google|twcamp^serp|twgr^search
Stallion Dan
Member
Pretending to Speak for every Scot who voted does not make it so. 38% voted leave.
Leaving UK now is just stupid, EU may start falling apart in the coming years. Why would want to join it if that happens...
Waiting and seeing is just the smart thing to do, rather than throwing toys outta pram in fit of rage now only to realise might need those toys later on.
And also the 2014 referendum, EU membership / uncertainty was a massive part of the Better Together campaign
Just read it and weep...
https://twitter.com/search?q=better...&ref_src=twsrc^google|twcamp^serp|twgr^search
Ugh.
DragonSworne
Banned
So Scotland voted to stay in the UK so it would remain in the EU, now England is forcing them out?
Yea, Scotland is going to leave the UK.
Yea, Scotland is going to leave the UK.
See what I did there?
Stallion Dan
Member
Yeah, made my point. See how things are going and be informed before making a decision.
I'm sorry but that's not how it works. I wish it was, but you, like various other bits of the U.K., and leaving the EU because our country as a whole sucks. Note - our country. The U.K.
I'm absolutely, 110% positive that Scottish independence will result from this at some point, and I wish the scots the best - I hope to join them before then. But this wasn't undemocratic by any definition of the term, unless you stretch democracy to the point that it has no meaning.
Your country has voted to leave the EU.
Let's hope you can get out soon before you do actually leave!
This is false, they can block legislation and they can pass amendments to re-write entire proposals. Plus they have many ways of pressuring the Commission to draft and put the legislation forward in the first place. And often the Commission works very closely with MEPs in this drafting procedure.
Source: I worked in Commission and Parliament.
Technically no, since all of Scotland voted to remain.
Ether_Snake
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And also the 2014 referendum, EU membership / uncertainty was a massive part of the Better Together campaign
Just read it and weep...
https://twitter.com/search?q=better...&ref_src=twsrc^google|twcamp^serp|twgr^search
The EU will stick to this staunchly. It will be used as an example to make sure others don't try and think they can pull this stunt on them.
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Steve.1981
Unconfirmed Member
1. I don't pretend to speak for every voter. My country voted and the result was that we want to remain in the EU. Every council returned a win for remain. Every single one.
2. I'm not acting like a child. I'm genuinely pissed off, and I have every right to be.
That's my point. Scotland is part of the UK. The UK voted to leave. Scotland made the decision in 2014 to remain part of the UK rather than become a separate country. Back then I was firmly in favour of staying in the union, and now I wish that vote had gone the other way - at least Scotland wouldn't be stuck in this awful position if it had!
Shh no facts, EU is a dictatorship!
Stallion Dan
Member
The UK is what voted, not Scotland. Or should every place that Remain won leave the UK too, inner London stay EU, outta London leave.
Or better yet, split the UK in two, 52% & 48%, the latter gets to stay in EU.
Your country voted 52% Leave.
giant_frying_pan
Member
Oh she entirely understands. I feel for her...I have a lot of time for her. Given her party and principles, she's in an impossible position.
If we exclude the factors of the first indy ref that were based around lies, empty promises, scaremongering and other better together shenanigans, I think she contributed the most to the No vote and she did so in a generally positive way.
But she's running into the problem of quoting referendum results that have lost a lot of meaning with the Leave decision. She's one of the good ones and a formidable opponent. But her colleagues have severely undermined her ability to take a credible position. She won't be able to explain away how so many No voters were duped and misled by the original Project Fear.
DragonSworne
Banned
Let Scotland vote again to leave the UK
Why are you making this so difficult? Scotland is a country and has the capabilities of leaving the UK.
At this point, it's pretty much garuanteed for them to split from the UK.
nelsonroyale
Member
I think it will be undemocratic if there is a clear desire in Scotland for a second Indyref and Westminister somehow block it, or change the goalposts, i.e., 60%. But so far, it is early days. Democracy is elastic though. I also think the fact that decisions are based on such a low threshold are problematic, but the biggest problem is the atrocious level of public information/discourse, resulting in large proportions of the electorate have a rather narrow view of politcs and the economy. There is a massive lack of historical context and understanding.
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Steve.1981
Unconfirmed Member
No it hasn't. My country is Scotland. Scotland has voted to remain a part of the EU.
The U.K. is not a country.
The rumor mill has been saying for some time that Ruth will formally separate the Scottish conservatives from the Tory party if this happens. they would remain pro-Union, but would be a completely separate and distinct organization (and would have a pro-EU party stance). That sounds entirely rational to me from their perspective - she is smart enough to realize that the votes they need to capture in Scotland aren't to be found in the anti-EU vote.
It would almost certainly solidify the conservatives in Scotland as the main opposition party for a long time which is also interesting. You could actually see a conservative leader in Scotland in our lifetimes if they handled it right and put enough distance between them and the English Tory party.
(Remember, in terms of left / right, Scotland isn't very different to England - it's very similar to London in profile. The outright loathing of the Tories comes from particular incidents and party history more than a fundamental difference in political outlook).
It would almost certainly solidify the conservatives in Scotland as the main opposition party for a long time which is also interesting. You could actually see a conservative leader in Scotland in our lifetimes if they handled it right and put enough distance between them and the English Tory party.
(Remember, in terms of left / right, Scotland isn't very different to England - it's very similar to London in profile. The outright loathing of the Tories comes from particular incidents and party history more than a fundamental difference in political outlook).
ferrasvansen
Member
Yeah must admit i was kinda starting to admire her qualities especially during the great debate, what clusterfuck this is.
MassiveNights
Banned
The Scottish referendum in 2014 wasn't about it wanting to become its own country. It IS its own country.
It was about leaving a union of countries.
Legally last night's result wasn't undemocratic, but for those who self identify as Scottish, voted Yes to leave the UK, voted against the Tories and voted to Remain in the EU, it certainly feels like it and you can't take that feeling away from the people.
It will ultimately trigger a second indy ref.
It was about leaving a union of countries.
Legally last night's result wasn't undemocratic, but for those who self identify as Scottish, voted Yes to leave the UK, voted against the Tories and voted to Remain in the EU, it certainly feels like it and you can't take that feeling away from the people.
It will ultimately trigger a second indy ref.
London is not a country, Scotland is.
That guy said his country (Scotland) voted remain...and he is right.
Monty Mole
Member
They could already just move to Ireland.
Jimmyfenix
Member
THIS IS IT MY FRIENDS
LET'S GET OFF THIS SINKING BOAT
LET'S GET OFF THIS SINKING BOAT
Yes
No I haven't, I think you'll find that's everyone answering me who have failed to answer my points on the failings of EU lack of democracy: I know my arguments were succinct, but also--IMO--true and fundamental
So do you know what democracy is? Do you know what the Demos is? Do you understand there is no European DEMOS? Do you understand that EU directives are beyond democratic accountability? Or what MEP's can do and can't do?
If that form of governance is good for you, brill. Its not good enough for me or the other 17 million citizens who voted with me against the EU
Audioboxer
Member
*sigh*...
Anyway, here is the full video of Nicola along with questions at the end
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hCb17h3aYWA
Garrett Hawke
Member
I voted No purely under the basis of not leaving the EU, and now here we are. I know what I will vote next time.
SomedayTheFire
Member
gmoran has already shown he has absolutely no idea how the EU, democracy or common sense works. no use replying to him.
I'm sorry but you've demonstrated a complete lack of understanding in this topic. There's democratic checks and balances and methods for national governments and elected officials to give input and edit a text. And countries and MEPs can block and veto regulation from the EU at many occasions. And Directives in particular need to be implemented and accepted and amended at the national level anyway.
You think the EU is undemocratic because you do not know how the EU works.
Others have already told you why you are wrong so I won't bother repeating that.
I assume that is why you didn't quote them.
Stallion Dan
Member
Scotland were not voting. The UK was, which Scotland previously voted to stay a part of.
Trying have your cake and eat it there. Don't get to say "Yes we are the UK" then when UK makes a decision say "No we are Scotland".
kraspkibble
Permabanned.
no, i don't want england voting for us anymore. we all voted to remain here in scotland but because england voted leave well we have to leave too. we'll probably be forced to stay if england has it's say. i know i'll probably get "But you's voted to stay in the UK" yeah...we did but we were told it was the only way to keep the £ and our EU membership. the £ is tanking and we're leaving the EU.
Your percentages were wrong, your logic is wrong and your understanding of Scottish identity, law and motivation is completely bereft.
The scots voted for a rational and sensible status quo and last night English nationalists destroyed that. The Scots have no reason to respect that upheaval. This was always a risk for "leave" and the leave voters either knew this or voted in ignorance.
MassiveNights
Banned
No-one is saying Scotland has an automatic right to say that. But it at least raises the question given that the SNP got over 40% of the vote in May based on a manifesto of "if Britain leaves the EU we will review independence" and that there's a majority of pro independence MSPs in Parliament across SNP and Scottish Greens.
giant_frying_pan
Member
Just like the House of Lords.
Yes. It's looking a sight better safer bet than Sterling right now
Exchange rates on credit products are not expensive. Lenders would roll into the interest rate, which already happens with other charges anyway.
Don't need it. Indyref 1 was pomp and circumstance. I think the same will happen again but let's say it doesn't...the rest of the UK cannot stop us leaving. What would they do? Throw our whole country in jail?
The resounding backing Scotland gave the EU today is plain to see. The EU can see that and will recognise it. It's in the EUs interests to have as many willing, able and diverse members as possible.
We don't need Westminster's permission to remedy a fallacy that was promoted by HM Government in 2014, that being, that a yes vote would lead to loss of EU membership.
'not quite the same thing'...?
An MSPs vote is worth the same as another MSPs vote be they SNP, Green, Labour, Conservative or whatever.
General Election 2015 after a no vote...56 out of 59 seats.
Scottish Parliamentary Elections 2016...two seats short of a majority (a consequence of the proportional list system)
But crucially... an INCREASE in the share of the vote.
2011 - 876,421 regional, 902,915 constituency votes.
2016 - 953,587 regional, 1,059,897 constituency votes.
Despite the no vote, MORE people voted SNP and the conditions laid down in the manifesto for considering a new referendum have been met.
To suggest that the SNP has no mandate is therefore #1) Factually incorrect as explained above and #2) Entirely disrespectful to those voters.
You don't decide if the SNP has such a mandate. I don't decide. The SNP doesn't decide.
The ELECTORATE decides. And they have decided.
My own personal determination puts little stock in oil. We can be self sufficient without it. We're already on our way there for energy generation.
Regarding tightening of belts...we're used to it. Continually being cropped on by a Westminster government we didn't vote for.
We deserve to be able to make our own path, rather than being told we can't because they think we're not up to it.
I'm a patient person. Next year, 5 years, 10 years...an independent Scotland is going to happen. Now with the UK on its way out of the EU, the sooner we leave the better and the less damage can be done to us by a right learning, Euro skeptic Westminster.
Not this debunked shit again. The Executive branch (Commission) is appointed by democratically elected national govts and approved by democratically elected MEP's. Not forgetting that Europe is now parliamentary democracy where the EP de facto decides the Commission President.
All throughout this campaign we've heard nothing but lies about "unelected bureacrats in Brussels" and yet no one bothered to point out that the entire British govt is unelected. The Queen solely appoints the PM, not Parliament. And let's not ignore the unelected and unaccountable House of Lords. Is it any wonder so many Scots want out of this now quite frankly corrupt, broken and archaic Disjointed Kingdom.
EdibleExplosives
Member
Plenty of people voted to stay part of the UK, so that they would stay part of the EU.
ratcliffja
Member
I'm roughly half Scottish and half English in terms of ethnicity. Stuff like this is why I will always cling to my Scottish side more. Stay strong my Scottish brothers.
gollumsluvslave
Member
Of course Scotland were voting. Scotland has it's own Parliament, and a LOT of the laws passed in Holyrood are actually tied back directly to Brussels / EU as opposed to Westminster.
You can't boil the 2014 Independence referendum being YES down to a 'we are the UK' when there was so much of the dialog was around remaining in the EU.
As per the SNP manifesto, the basis of which they were re-elected into Scottish Government,
Scotland is most definitely being taken out of the EU against it's will as it voted to remain, overwhelmingly.
I speak for myself here, but probably many others, but continued EU membership and the uncertaintly of what would happen to an Independent Scotland in terms of the EU was a major, if not THE major reason for many people to vote NO, because continued membership of the EU seemed much more secure at the time being part of the UK.
How wrong we were.
giant_frying_pan
Member
England could always join Schengen tooIf an independent Scotland becomes part of the EU, it will also join schengen. Which means a border between England and Scotland
(btw I'm fully supportive of Scotland in Schengen, if it isn't clear)
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