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(NYTIMES) Payoff for Efficient Cars Can Take Years

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Ripclawe

Banned
How the hell is comparing a pickup truck to a prius fair in any universe?


http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/05/b...int&adxnnlx=1333719546-mYb+81xpPMXCNmkoU6Ey0A

Payoff for Efficient Cars Takes Years

By NICK BUNKLEY


DETROIT — Ed Moran’s new Toyota Prius was programmed by the dealer to make him feel good about his gas savings. A dashboard display compares the fuel consumption of the Prius and his 2001 Ford pickup truck.

“Every time I go to the store it will tell me how much money I saved,” said Mr. Moran, a horticulturist in Ames, Iowa.

Like more and more Americans, Mr. Moran is looking to a fuel-efficient car to help soften the financial blow of ever higher gas prices.

Shoppers have more options than ever to fight back, including hybrids, plug-ins, electric vehicles and “eco” or “super fuel economy” packages.

But opting for models that promise better mileage through new technologies does not necessarily save money, according to data compiled for The New York Times by TrueCar.com, an automotive research Web site.

Except for two hybrids, the Prius and Lincoln MKZ, and the diesel-powered Volkswagen Jetta TDI, the added cost of the fuel-efficient technologies is so high that it would take the average driver many years — in some cases more than a decade — to save money over comparable new models with conventional internal-combustion engines.

That is true at today’s pump prices, around $4, and also if gas were to climb to $5 a gallon, the data shows.

Gas would have to approach $8 a gallon before many of the cars could be expected to pay off in the six years an average person owns a car.

Analysts say the added cost of the new technologies is limiting the ability of fuel-efficient cars to gain broader appeal. Hybrid sales have surged more than 60 percent this year, but they still account for less than 3 percent of the total market. Plug-in cars represent a minuscule fraction of sales, with General Motors even halting production of the Chevrolet Volt in response to less demand than it expected.

“The point where a car can actually go after a mass-market audience is when the pricing starts making sense on paper,” said Jesse Toprak, vice president for market intelligence at TrueCar. “If they want these technologies to be mainstream, pricing still needs to come down.”

The Prius and Lincoln MKZ are likely to produce overall savings within two years versus similar-size gas-powered cars from the same brand, but other hybrids, despite ratings 8 to 12 miles per gallon better than conventional models, will cost more to buy and drive for at least five years.

The data assumes an average of 15,000 miles driven a year and a gas price of just under $4 a gallon.

If gas cost $5 a gallon, the TrueCar data estimates that the payback period for a hybrid Ford Fusion over the conventional Fusion would be six and a half years, compared with eight and a half years at $4. At $6 a gallon, the hybrid Toyota Camry, Hyundai Sonata and Kia Optima are likely to generate savings within four years.

So why do some buyers pay more for advanced technology that might not save them money? Many never do the math, analysts say, or they tend to overestimate how much the added miles per gallon translate into actual monetary savings. Some view the higher mileage as better for resale value, hoping to come out better on the back end.

“The price of the vehicle, you only pay it once and then soon forget about it,” Mr. Toprak said.

Others clearly view saving fuel and doing something better for the environment as their ultimate goals, regardless of cost. The Prius, for example, became a success in part because drivers wanted to drive — and be seen driving — a hybrid.

“Fuel economy has become a social attribute,” said Tom Turrentine, an anthropologist at the University of California, Davis, who has studied car buying habits and is the director of the university’s Plug-In Hybrid and Electric Vehicle Research Center. “People want to have good fuel economy because if they have poor fuel economy they might look stupid.”

The low price tag and high mileage rating of the new Prius C hatchback persuaded Mr. Moran, the horticulturist, to buy one in March.

He paid a little over $22,000 for the car, which is smaller and less expensive than the regular Prius, with an identical 50 miles-per-gallon rating. That is about the same price as a Toyota Camry sedan, which gets about 30 miles per gallon.

Mr. Moran, 34, knew his fuel savings would be overshadowed by his new monthly loan payment, but driving a hybrid just felt right. “I thought, ‘I try to save plants every day, so why am I not doing my part?’ ” he said.

Early in March, Toyota said that it had sold more Prius C cars in its first three days on the market than Chevrolet sold plug-in Volts and Nissan sold battery-powered Leafs in all of February. The statistic highlights that even within the fuel-efficient car market, hybrids have a big leg up on electric cars, which are far more expensive.

According to TrueCar, a buyer who chose the Leaf instead of a Nissan Versa would need to drive it for almost nine years at today’s gas prices or six years at $5 a gallon before the fuel savings outweighed the nearly $10,000 difference in price.

The Volt, which cost nearly $40,000 before a $7,500 federal tax credit, could take up to 27 years to pay off versus a Chevrolet Cruze, assuming it was regularly driven farther than its battery-only range allows. The payback time could drop to about eight years if gas cost $5 a gallon and the driver remained exclusively on battery power.

The Lundberg Survey, which tracks fuel prices, said in March that gas prices would need to reach $12.50 a gallon for the Volt to make sense purely on financial terms. It said the Leaf would be competitive with gas at $8.53 a gallon.

Still, in a recent survey by Consumer Reports, the most satisfied drivers owned Volts. The survey said 93 percent of Volt owners would definitely buy the car again — though there are only 12,000 of the cars on the road.

“If you provide consumers what they want, they won’t mind paying a premium to get it,” Mr. Toprak said.

Marcus Schuh, the general manager of Terry Lee Honda, a dealership near Indianapolis, said shoppers were not necessarily looking to save money when they shopped for a fuel-efficient car.

Many just want a vehicle that consumes less gas, and some are willing to pay a modest premium for a hybrid if they want to reduce their fuel use even more, he said.

“There’s probably a percentage that is aware of the cost and benefit,” Mr. Schuh said. “It’s about helping the environment and it’s a good feeling to do it.”

Right now, the biggest reason people are not buying many hybrids, he said, is that they are in short supply, because of production cuts caused by last year’s tsunami in Japan, where Honda makes all of its hybrids. So if someone comes in asking for a hybrid, Mr. Schuh can make the argument that their overall costs might be less by going with a conventional car.

The TrueCar data shows that upgrade packages like the “eco” trim level on Chevrolet’s car lineup generally take even longer to pay off than hybrids. Such upgrades cost less than a hybrid powertrain, but the increase in gas mileage is much smaller.

Even so, Matt Melliere, 25, decided in January that the Chevrolet Cruze Eco was the right car for him. At 42 miles per gallon in highway driving, it is twice as efficient as the Subaru WRX he had previously.

“The miles per gallon was definitely the driving factor,” said Mr. Melliere, who lives in St. Charles, Mo., and commutes 20 miles each way to his marketing job with an online retailer.

“Every day when gas goes up,” he said, “I feel better and better about my purchase.”
 
I don't care if the cars tell them that their farts smell like roses. It's better to have people fooled into using less gas than to have the almighty dollar rule every decision. The more they are bought, the lower the price will be.

Personally, I'm holding out for an electric car.
 
You managed to highlight everything except the part where it indicates that there are, in fact, the expected savings from purchasing the Prius.

Just saying.
 

The Technomancer

card-carrying scientician
I was talking about this with my brother last night. Alternative solutions will only become widespread when they become cheaper and more efficient then gasoline, and since we're being dragged kicking and screaming into investing in alternate energy its more likely that we'll cross the threshold because gas becomes too expensive then because the technology has developed for other stuff to be cheap.
 

ascii42

Member
If saving money is the objective, buy a Geo Metro. It'll cost you under $1000, and will get comparable fuel economy to a hybrid.

There are other ways people judge a car's value.
 

Meier

Member
I think you should have bolded the rest of the line about the Volt..

The Volt, which cost nearly $40,000 before a $7,500 federal tax credit, could take up to 27 years to pay off versus a Chevrolet Cruze, assuming it was regularly driven farther than its battery-only range allows. The payback time could drop to about eight years if gas cost $5 a gallon and the driver remained exclusively on battery power.

From 27 to 8 is a huge amount of time... and that's against the Cruze. What about versus a BMW or something that has a comparable price? Beyond the potential gas cost savings though, how bout just being a good steward for the environment? Surely that is worth some money to the people who buy hybrids.

Edit: Further into the article (not bolded, natch)

Marcus Schuh, the general manager of Terry Lee Honda, a dealership near Indianapolis, said shoppers were not necessarily looking to save money when they shopped for a fuel-efficient car.

Many just want a vehicle that consumes less gas, and some are willing to pay a modest premium for a hybrid if they want to reduce their fuel use even more, he said.

“There’s probably a percentage that is aware of the cost and benefit,” Mr. Schuh said. “It’s about helping the environment and it’s a good feeling to do it.”
 

Kabouter

Member
Gas would have to approach $8 a gallon before many of the cars could be expected to pay off in the six years an average person owns a car.
Jackpot.
r9Qf0.png


Seriously though, I just don't think hybrids are 'there' yet. Not even just in the savings they provide over traditional vehicles, but also in that producing hybrids has quite the impact on the environment. I think that for now, cars like the Volkswagen Polo BlueMotion are more sensible solutions.

Edit: Or hell, even just buying second hand in many cases would be less harmful to the environment than buying a new and more efficient car.
 

ascii42

Member
From 27 to 8 is a huge amount of time. Beyond the potential gas cost savings though, how bout just being a good steward for the environment? Surely that is worth some money to the people who buy hybrids.

Given the process and materials used to make hybrids, I'm not sure that it's really helping the environment. But you know, whatever floats people's boats. I'm certainly not in a position to criticize. I have a car that gets 10-12 mpg, and I would probably have a Chevy Volt if I didn't live in an apartment. For me, it's all about the technology.
 

B!TCH

how are you, B!TCH? How is your day going, B!ITCH?
About time the backlash against electric and hybrid cars came full circle.
 
I find the whole "it'll pay itself off in X years" a totally ridiculous premise for buying a car.
Who seriously sits down and calculates that shit unless you're super anal?
 

Funky Papa

FUNK-Y-PPA-4
I think you should have bolded the rest of the line about the Volt..



From 27 to 8 is a huge amount of time... and that's against the Cruze. What about versus a BMW or something that has a comparable price? Beyond the potential gas cost savings though, how bout just being a good steward for the environment? Surely that is worth some money to the people who buy hybrids.

Edit: Further into the article (not bolded, natch)
And not just that; you are also helping to fund further development. Same with clean energies/renewables. This "oh, but it is more expensive than burning gas/coal" argument is nothing but a pile of shit when you consider what is at stake.

I swear to God the conservative discourse regarding energy and transportation is reaching immobilistic levels.
 

JGS

Banned
I guess helping the environment we all live in counts for nothing.
I always assumed that was the primary reason. Buying a hybrid for anything otherwise is silly right now.

Might as well get an old school Geo Metro and get 50 mpg.
 

Funky Papa

FUNK-Y-PPA-4
I always assumed that was the primary reason. Buying a hybrid for anything otherwise is silly right now.

The social and political costs of our oil dependence are brutal. Even if you don't give a toss about the enviroment, we'd be saving and ungodly amount of money (and lest not forget: lives) just by purchasing more efficient vehicles.

Might as well get an old school Geo Metro and get 50 mpg.
And get crushed like a can of Coke when you hit a shopping cart.
 

Deadbeat

Banned
Beyond the potential gas cost savings though, how bout just being a good steward for the environment? Surely that is worth some money to the people who buy hybrids.
Yeah the lower and middle class should tighten their bootstraps and pay the extra costs. Then they can contribute to reducing their drop in the bucket (which will result in nothing but more feel good posts).
 

ascii42

Member
And get crushed like a can of Coke when you hit a shopping cart.

There is that risk, yes. The solution I found back when I drove Geo Metros is to not ever run into anything. And since you present such a small target in a Geo, you are less likely to get hit.
 

Azrael

Member
Don't send your kids to school and give them an education, Ripclawe. There wouldn't be any payoff for 18 years anyway.
 

ascii42

Member
Don't send your kids to school and give them an education, Ripclawe. There wouldn't be any payoff for 18 years anyway.
And we all know the average length of ownership of kids is only 6 years, so most people never receive that payoff.

Actually, with the divorce rate these days, that might not be too far from the truth.
 

JGS

Banned
The social and political costs of our oil dependence are brutal. Even if you don't give a toss about the enviroment, we'd be saving and ungodly amount of money (and lest not forget: lives) just by purchasing more efficient vehicles.
This is true but it's not something a consumer would normally think about. It's either gas savings or environment. Costs trump both though.

I would love to buy an electric car, but the cost is too prohibitive right now.
 

Zaptruder

Banned
External costs of gas = conveniently unaccounted for.

But an accurate accounting would take into the cost of the security requirements (mlitary campaigns and bases) and environmental damage/opportunity costs/clean up repair costs.

Of course doing so would make the case for gas... a little less tenable than it's currently represented to be.

And of course, we couldn't have that, because the American public would 'suffer' at the undue energy costs.

Ignoring the future American public that is presently and towards the future bearing the costs for past, present and future reliance of oil.
 
External costs of gas = conveniently unaccounted for.

But an accurate accounting would take into the cost of the security requirements (mlitary campaigns and bases) and environmental damage/opportunity costs/clean up repair costs.

Of course doing so would make the case for gas... a little less tenable than it's currently represented to be.

And of course, we couldn't have that, because the American public would 'suffer' at the undue energy costs.

Ignoring the future American public that is presently and towards the future bearing the costs for past, present and future reliance of oil.

In that case, all of the same factors should also be calculated into the energy costs and environmental impact of manufacturing hybrid/electric vehicles (and maybe include the costs of military bases in Japan, just to be "complete"?) Let's just chain everything into the bigger picture to make "startling" and myth-busting revelations.
 

Zaptruder

Banned
In that case, all of the same factors should also be calculated into the energy costs and environmental impact of manufacturing hybrid/electric vehicles (and maybe include the costs of military bases in Japan, just to be "complete"?) Let's just chain everything into the bigger picture to make "startling" and myth-busting revelations.

I wouldn't argue otherwise.

But in the complete picture, it would be useful for us to figure out (at least in the sense of an intelligent projection that accounts for as many factors as we can) the amortized costs for the different alternatives in play.
 

JGS

Banned
Won't we be depleting our oil supply in about two decades? Yeah, won't take off till we get close to that point.
By that time there will be substantial tax breaks for both the industry and consumer.

Nothing like a crisis to get the deals going.
 
I'm not quite getting you. Are you actually arguing against better accounting and pricing for externalities?


No, just going along with your plan in "convincing" everyone. Personally, I think people have a hard enough time trying to figure out dealer and delivery costs and getting a fair price and interest rates that throwing more numbers out there would only be discouraging.
 

J-Rod

Member
I wouldn't even feel like I'm helping the environment that much when a lot of electricity still comes from burning fossil fuels.
 

Ripclawe

Banned
From 27 to 8 is a huge amount of time
and with certain limitations. I will be interested when these cars are the same price as regular cars without if you do this scenarios to justify the price.

how bout just being a good steward for the environment?

not at an average of $20000 a pop

plus isn't the making of these cars leave a bigger emissions footprint?

The Toyota Prius is among the greenest cars to operate. But manufacturing the famous gasoline-electric hybrid can be a dirty business.

Toyota studied the car's total environmental impact from factory to junkyard.

Not surprisingly, the fuel-efficient Prius was better than average in its class of vehicles in lifetime emissions of carbon dioxide, nitrogen oxide and sulfur oxide, according to Toyota.

But it was slightly worse than average in emissions of nonmethane hydrocarbons and particulate matter. Toyota says this is because producing hybrid-only parts such as motors, inverters and nickel-metal hydride batteries consumes more energy and creates more emissions.

In fact, when looking at the "materials manufacturing" phase of the car's life cycle, the Prius was worse than the class average across all five emissions categories.


Read more: http://www.autonews.com/article/20101018/OEM01/310189979#ixzz1rGx3hy96
 

sk3

Banned
Comparing a Volt to the Cruze is not really fair at all. The Volt obviously does not have luxury interior, but it has a lot more bells and whistles than a Cruze.

If you buy a hybrid strictly for the mileage, it's generally not a great idea. I bought mine because of the cool tech, longer times between fill-ups, and better reliability, oh yeah and the $3000 tax credit which made it the same price as the non-hybrid.

I've only had it 3 years and I'm planning on replacing it with an SUV soon.... oh well.
 

BigDug13

Member
Don't buy new then. I bet if I get a 2002 Civic HX gas engine car that gets mid 40's highway and low-mid 30's city for a few thousand, I'll get my economical savings worth.

New cars in general are a poor buy to "save money".
 

Zaptruder

Banned
No, just going along with your plan in "convincing" everyone. Personally, I think people have a hard enough time trying to figure out dealer and delivery costs and getting a fair price and interest rates that throwing more numbers out there would only be discouraging.

Uh... why would we do the accounting for externalities at an individual level?

My response to the article and Ripclawe in general was that - the prices for fuel looks good (as a society), until you start counting the total costs that are hidden from sight.

If we priced fuel to account for those externalities, then the cost of electric and hybrid vehicles would suddenly look tantalizing.

But we don't. So we're lulled into this illusion of fuel been cheaper, even while the actual costs continue to burden us indirectly and into the future.
 
The social and political costs of our oil dependence are brutal. Even if you don't give a toss about the enviroment, we'd be saving and ungodly amount of money (and lest not forget: lives) just by purchasing more efficient vehicles.


And get crushed like a can of Coke when you hit a shopping cart.

Everything is made out of oil these days, you can't get away from gasoline, it's a fucking pipedream.

The bottomline is it doesn't make sense for your everyday joe to buy one of these fancy electric cars, the cost-saving simply isn't there.

Uh... why would we do the accounting for externalities at an individual level?

My response to the article and Ripclawe in general was that - the prices for fuel looks good (as a society), until you start counting the total costs that are hidden from sight.

If we priced fuel to account for those externalities, then the cost of electric and hybrid vehicles would suddenly look tantalizing.

But we don't. So we're lulled into this illusion of fuel been cheaper, even while the actual costs continue to burden us indirectly and into the future.

We still have to generate the electricity with coal, gas and iranium, and you still have to extract those resources, we'll always need fuel, whether it's oil, coal, gas or nuclear, and we still need petroleum for manufacturing just about everything.
 

reilo

learning some important life lessons from magical Negroes
I think you should have bolded the rest of the line about the Volt..



From 27 to 8 is a huge amount of time... and that's against the Cruze. What about versus a BMW or something that has a comparable price? Beyond the potential gas cost savings though, how bout just being a good steward for the environment? Surely that is worth some money to the people who buy hybrids.

Edit: Further into the article (not bolded, natch)

Why in the world would you compare an entry luxury vehicle to the Chevy Volt? Even then, the BMW starts at $35,000, is a bigger and much more powerful vehicle.

The whole point is to compare it to a car similar in quality and size. The Chevy Cruze and Volt are nearly identical in size. Except the Cruze starts at half the MSRP that the Volt does --- AFTER the tax rebate. That's a huge gap to cover.
 
Uh... why would we do the accounting for externalities at an individual level?

My response to the article and Ripclawe in general was that - the prices for fuel looks good (as a society), until you start counting the total costs that are hidden from sight.

If we priced fuel to account for those externalities, then the cost of electric and hybrid vehicles would suddenly look tantalizing.

But we don't. So we're lulled into this illusion of fuel been cheaper, even while the actual costs continue to burden us indirectly and into the future.

Yeah I know it doesn't really affect the individual purchasing price. I guess what I meant to say is that buying a car is mostly an emotional process for people (even though we like to think we're being "rational" about it). Genuine panic may work, like "Collapse" (sorry I have a bad habit of walking the fine line between sarcasm and seriousness).
 
Yeah I know it doesn't really affect the individual purchasing price. I guess what I meant to say is that buying a car is mostly an emotional process for people (even though we like to think we're being "rational" about it). Genuine panic may work, like "Collapse" (sorry I have a bad habit of walking the fine line between sarcasm and seriousness).

It depends on the person, for some people buying a car is more about status, for people who simply see owning a car as a necessary expense (those of us who don't like fucking riding on the bus), we buy a dependable car that drives well on the highway with low mileage and low maintenance costs with a decent brand, aka an accord or a camry. Most people I know simply don't give a fuck about saving the trees.
 

njean777

Member
Well eventually we are going to have to switch to another fuel source so investing now will pay off in the future anyways. Gas is a finite resource incase anybody forgot.
 
It depends on the person, for some people buying a car is more about status, for people who simply see owning a car as a necessary expense (those of us who don't like fucking riding on the bus), we buy a dependable car that drives well on the highway with low mileage and low maintenance costs with a decent brand, aka an accord or a camry. Most people I know simply don't give a fuck about saving the trees.

Yeah, we just bought a car last week (Subaru Outback - need the AWD here in Maine) and went through the whole ups and downs of the process, changing minds, changing back, pricing, financing, amenities or no amenities, shifty dealers, etc. It can be an exhausting but ultimately rewarding process, but I do think there is an "emotional connection" factor, even in the econo-box range. Car companies spend an inordinate amount of money just to establish an "image."
 
I find the whole "it'll pay itself off in X years" a totally ridiculous premise for buying a car.
Who seriously sits down and calculates that shit unless you're super anal?
It takes a few seconds to do a rough calculation and you could save thousands of dollars. That's anal? You must be the most chill brah around. (Or did I miss sarcasm?)

I'm actually surprised at just how much financial sense the Prius makes. I'm sure I did some kind of estimate before I bought mine but I didn't focus on it too much. I considered it worth it as long as it was roughly break-even over the life of the car. But just 30,000 miles to recoup the extra cost? Niiiiiice. I want to know which cars they're actually comparing to though. It just says "similar-sized" alternatives. I certainly wouldn't have bought a mid-size hatchback other than the Prius, so I'm more interested in how it compares to, say, the Corolla or Civic.
 
Yeah, we just bought a car last week (Subaru Outback - need the AWD here in Maine) and went through the whole ups and downs of the process, changing minds, changing back, pricing, financing, amenities or no amenities, shifty dealers, etc. It can be an exhausting but ultimately rewarding process, but I do think there is an "emotional connection" factor, even in the econo-box range.

Don't get me wrong, I'm emotionally attached to my accord (an old v6), but at the end of the day it's still just a depreciating asset that gets me where I want to go. The buying process can be nerver-wrecking though, but I think pricing and features are more the focus than "can we contribute to slowing down the polar icecaps from melting".

The fact is if gas prices go up I'll just spend less on other things, am I going to buy a fucking volt? Hell no.
 
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