A lot of the appeal of the FN among older generations is that belief that France can only return to its former glory by re-embracing its past principles (death penalty, immigration-unfriendly policies, get out of Euro, etc.).
EDIT: spelling
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|OT| French Presidential election - 2012 edition
- Thread starter ComputerMKII
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A lot of the appeal of the FN among older generations is that belief that France can only return to its former glory by re-embracing its past principles (death penalty, immigration-unfriendly policies, get out of Euro, etc.).
EDIT: spelling
Yeah well, please stop invading us with your foreign food and all.
They vote for her, but I'm really not sure that means they want her as a president.
I don't think they read all of her program in any case.
Tribes of Trusty
Member
But the donner kebab are delicious !
Moundir&Tony>you
Member
ComputerMKII
Banned
Young militants of the FN reportedly talked about 'blowing up' the UMP. I can see Marine Le Pen asking her voters not to take part in the second round.
el retorno
Member
I just saw on France 24 that the far left guy has called on his supporters to go may 7th as if they were voting for him.
Flying_Phoenix
Banned
So France GAF. As an American I'm curious. How "crazy" is the far right party and Melechon?
Mélanchon has some extreme ideas but it would be far-fetched to call him a communist. At least from my POV. He's a big leftie, and they played a lot on that "red" image he got.
On the other hand, Le Pen looks like she just wants the world to burn. Far-right at its worst, and a pretty crazy isolationist attitude.
On the other hand, Le Pen looks like she just wants the world to burn. Far-right at its worst, and a pretty crazy isolationist attitude.
Flying_Phoenix
Banned
How would you compare these people to say Ron Paul or Rick Santorum?
Or if American politics aren't your best subject any known politician throughout history.
Republicans (today at least) are worse than both the UMP and FN IMO.
It's a different breed of crazy from the Republicans in the US, there is no religious dimension at play in France. I'll just give you one measure from each candidate:
MLP: Leave the EU and return to the franc.
Mélenchon: Maximum salary (does any country in the world even have this? Honest question)
They're both populist assholes who feed on the discontent people have towards the system and offer no real measures.
Paul is an airhead who will never go anywhere on the national level, so he doesn't scare me so much. Santorum on the other hand... If MLP gets even bigger scores in 2017 than I could compare her to Santorum in terms of fear factor. I'm more scared by Santorum voters than MLP voters though, most MLP voters (that I know) are either old people or fuck the system guys.
On a side note, the department of Gard is the only department where MLP came first so far, as a Montpelliérain I can't say I'm surprised (though I would have guessed one of the four departments between Corsica and Alsace over Gard TBH).
ComputerMKII
Banned
You be the judge:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Front_(France)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean-Marie_Le_Pen
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marine_Le_Pen
It's not uncommon to see the flag of Soviet Russia at Mélenchon's rallies.
Ron Paul wants a small government, a free market, no welfare, and no FED (Central Bank). Le Pen wants a big government, protectionism and welfare for housewives and people of French nationality. She also wants regulation on finance and banks, and to end the independence of the Central Bank in order to support growth through inflation/creation of money.
As for Rick Santorum, I don't know much about him so I'll just quote from his profile on Wikipedia.
Marine Le Pen is strictly in favor of the separation of church and state, if only for curbing islamism.
I'm not sure MLP would be in favor of tax cuts in general.
MLP is against gay marriage and wants to stop reimbursing women who have too many abortions.
She's personally in favor of the death penalty, but wants the French to decide (i.e. a referendum)
I can definitely see MLP agreeing on that.
MLP wouldn't agree. Like Sarkozy, Hollande, Bayrou and Mélenchon, she is attached to the French notion of public service.
MLP wouldn't.
As for Iran, MLP doesn't think it's a problem if they got nuclear weapons. She thinks Iran would never use them since they would be oblitarated within seconds if they did (and so is her father's opinion).
Me_Marcadet
Member
There so much wrong in this message. Like I already said in other threads, she is borderline on some topics like islam and migration flux but she has a very good and coherent economical program.
There's a lot of good ideas borowed from left economists, philosophes and geographs like Jacques Sapir, Emmanuel Todd and Christophe Guilly.
I really hope Hollande listen to these mens.
Here's a great quote from Hubert Vedrine, a PS member :
He says imigration is often bad for poor people and we neeed to stop with the anti racism propaganda because it doesn't work anymore.
What is wrong with the FN is the origin of the party and what it was in the seventies but the program of marine lepen is good and could be one of the PS.
I really hope Hollande would borrow a lot of those good ideas like the salary for housewives or househusband.
EDIT: great post Computer, It pleases me to see some unbiased info on MLP. I'm so tired of people calling her a filthy racist instead of reading and understanding her program.
Flying_Phoenix
Banned
ComputerMKII
Banned
The politician who, in my opinion, plays the religion card the most is Christine Boutin, a christian-democrat who supports Sarkozy:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christine_Boutin
But even then, it's just 'traditional' conservatism on social issues with a hint of christian humanism/good intentions. She's a little bigoted but I wouldn't consider her crazy (well, she did oppose hard-rock/metal festivals, in the name of religion, if you consider that 'crazy').
The most controversial one might be Christian Vanneste, who was recently kicked out of the UMP for saying that homosexuality was a threat to humanity: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Vanneste
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christine_Boutin
But even then, it's just 'traditional' conservatism on social issues with a hint of christian humanism/good intentions. She's a little bigoted but I wouldn't consider her crazy (well, she did oppose hard-rock/metal festivals, in the name of religion, if you consider that 'crazy').
The most controversial one might be Christian Vanneste, who was recently kicked out of the UMP for saying that homosexuality was a threat to humanity: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Vanneste
Me_Marcadet
Member
Ironically, the politicians who say the most stupid things are more often from government parties than the far right/left 
It's easily explained because they care more about their politic career and are more comedians than politicians.
It's easily explained because they care more about their politic career and are more comedians than politicians.
Tribes of Trusty
Member
Well maybe because she is indeed a racist and her program is imo stupid, so much that seeing Anne-Sophie Lapix destroying each point of it (and not even the "islam is bad immigrants are evil yadda yadda" ones) was borderline painful to watch.
ComputerMKII
Banned
George Frèche was one funny politician.Ironically, the politicians who say the most stupid things are more often from government parties than the far right/left
It's easily explained because they care more about their politic career and are more comedians than politicians.
Tribes of Trusty
Member
Charles Pasqua too...of a different kind.
moozoom
Member
Marine Le Pen is way better at communication than her father, which constantly made racist slip-ups on t.v and radio ( or bad taste jokes about the jews and Hitler ) that hindered the progression of the party, but she has the same voters and the same ideology.
The FN is a party who is based on intolerance, and who is just increasingly better at hiding its true program and intentions. Whatever is written in her program are just hiding what this is truly about, we all saw what happened when some cities have had FN mayors : book censorship in the libraries, some artists were forbidden to play etc...
How can anyone think that they have suddenly stopped being intolerant and the whole ideology has changed just because a younger, smarter, blond woman is at the head of the party ?
Some of the root of the party are coming from extreme right fascist groups, and when I was a teenager, the racist white-supremacist skinheads of my hi-school (there were many at the time) were big supporters of the Front National, and used to walk with them during the marches. Nowadays the skinheads are older and wear suits, but the ideology is the same. The FN has still some very strong ties to various fascist and far-right groups and political party around Europe.
Also I'm sure they agree on many things with Christine Boutin, as the FN has always cultivated a strong bond with religion and church, even if now she speaks of Church and State separation. Like any populist party they're ready to say almost anything to be elected, and then whatever was written in the program is of no importance, as they can do what they want.
And that's true for any party, I don't think Hollande if elected will be able to fulfill most of his promises. I'm personnally concerned about the Gay rights equality (marriage, adoption) and I'm sure they (whoever is elected) won't legalize it anytime soon.
Me_Marcadet
Member
We didn't saw the same thing. what I saw was a journalist who didn't let her guest finish her sentences about one and only one point of her program (about the tax of imported goods from countries who are not fair in their competitiveness IRC). If you read the program of MLP, you can see she was right with her numbers.
EDIT: @moozoom, I'm aware of that and it's clearly a risk with any party, you can't really know their true intentions. That's why I'm not rooting for the FN but if they can help me push some good ideas I will use them.
EDIT: @moozoom, I'm aware of that and it's clearly a risk with any party, you can't really know their true intentions. That's why I'm not rooting for the FN but if they can help me push some good ideas I will use them.
Sickboy007
Member
To me she sounds like the typical social conservative/economic populist post-fascist with a good makeover. Far worse than a guy like Santorum if you ask me. You're basically getting the worst of two worlds, plus an unhealthy dose of post-fascist revanchism.
ComputerMKII
Banned
Comment I read somewhere on the Internet:
"The problem with Marine Le Pen is that, while her father Jean-Marie stood as the candidate of 'the true right', Marine tends to stand as 'the true left', with her economic program inspired by Jean-Pierre Chevènement. She doesn't benefit from her father's instinctive anti-communism."
"The problem with Marine Le Pen is that, while her father Jean-Marie stood as the candidate of 'the true right', Marine tends to stand as 'the true left', with her economic program inspired by Jean-Pierre Chevènement. She doesn't benefit from her father's instinctive anti-communism."
ComputerMKII
Banned
Okay, i'm one of the guys that voted Mélenchon today... To begin with, you have to understand that here in France, many people are worried and depressed because of our country industrial decline. We're on the verge of lethal unemployment and future is terrifying us right now.
I'm 25 and have a Licence (Baccalaureat +3) of "Culture and Communication" in the pocket, but i'm unemployed since then. I'm not alone at all, and young people here suffer from an economy in crisis, a very frozen economy which isn't confident about young people like me and seems to only understand rentability at very short term.
The fact is, productivity is very high in our country but salaries don't scales at all. We're just tired of listening right wing politicians who targets our "high salaries" then more recently the 35 hours of hebdomadary work (but in practice, its more than 37.5h most of the time) as a cause of the economical crisis since the eighties.
Despite all their "attacks" against workers these years, with gifts to the country's more richest people, those right wing politicians have failed to restore full employment and seems to just care about their agendas...
So, Mélenchon is just a keynesian that wants to restore economical planification and state's intervention in our economy, like what is done in Argentina since 2002. And as i'm one of these idealists that want a more equal society... You can call me communist, i'm very proud of it.
And as you know, he was 4th today and will support Hollande on the Second Tour. Like me.
(do you rike my engrish?)
What the...? What's the difference between a thing that called himself communist and an idea that is called communism? Enlighten me please if i'm wrong, i have a very strong idea about this.
I've never seen USSR's flag at any of Mélenchon's rallies. I don't understand how utopists like us would take example of the totalitarist state and highly inequal society that was USSR, it's bullshit. Don't try to make us what we're not.
I'm 25 and have a Licence (Baccalaureat +3) of "Culture and Communication" in the pocket, but i'm unemployed since then. I'm not alone at all, and young people here suffer from an economy in crisis, a very frozen economy which isn't confident about young people like me and seems to only understand rentability at very short term.
The fact is, productivity is very high in our country but salaries don't scales at all. We're just tired of listening right wing politicians who targets our "high salaries" then more recently the 35 hours of hebdomadary work (but in practice, its more than 37.5h most of the time) as a cause of the economical crisis since the eighties.
Despite all their "attacks" against workers these years, with gifts to the country's more richest people, those right wing politicians have failed to restore full employment and seems to just care about their agendas...
So, Mélenchon is just a keynesian that wants to restore economical planification and state's intervention in our economy, like what is done in Argentina since 2002. And as i'm one of these idealists that want a more equal society... You can call me communist, i'm very proud of it.
And as you know, he was 4th today and will support Hollande on the Second Tour. Like me.
(do you rike my engrish?)
What the...? What's the difference between a thing that called himself communist and an idea that is called communism? Enlighten me please if i'm wrong, i have a very strong idea about this.
I've never seen USSR's flag at any of Mélenchon's rallies. I don't understand how utopists like us would take example of the totalitarist state and highly inequal society that was USSR, it's bullshit. Don't try to make us what we're not.
Sarko doesn't waste much time eh?"5 reasons to vote for Nicolas Sarkozy"
http://www.u-m-p.org/actualites/a-la-une/5-raisons-de-voter-pour-nicolas-sarkozy-61992004
]
ComputerMKII
Banned
I thought it was recent but the page seems to have been published in Friday.
I'd explain this because the FN figures know they're under surveilance.Ironically, the politicians who say the most stupid things are more often from government parties than the far right/left
It's easily explained because they care more about their politic career and are more comedians than politicians.
Question the activists and the smaller representatives and you'll quickly get the problem.
EDIT :
Nearly 40 departments went from right to left in this election. None of them went from left to right.
Second round polls still predict a strong lead to Hollande, and MLP seem to want the UMP dead.
who doesn't
Me_Marcadet
Member
You could say that about any party, there so much activists and smaller representatives so it's normal there are some very stupid people.
The other reason smaller parties doesn't say a lot of stupid things is because they don't have a lot of occasions to speak on the media so they make it count.
Alx
Member
Of course there are stupid people everywhere. But when you're dealing with the extremes, you get stupid people with extreme opinions, which is more dangerous than stupid people with moderate opinions.
I don't approve with the over-simplification of politics and opinions (see my previous post), but let's not ignore that a big part of the success of FN is fueled by fear and/or anger.
Ask the FdG's core and you'll have people who want to tax the rich, reduce inequalities and more demoocracy. Ask the FN's core and you have death penalty, restoring authority and islamophobia.
I'm talking about the core here, people who go to the meetings, who have their card etc. No possible comparison, really.
Bonus : http://fafwatch.noblogs.org/post/2012/02/18/fn-sans-commentaire/
What kind of job are you expecting with this education if I might ask?
Fuck my miserable life....18% is way too much, especially considering we've been through a presidential election that gace over 80% to a geriatric satyre already.
If only people could get a graps that no matter your origin and color, smoking pot in the subway, generally behaving like Tony Montana is just a state between being a kid and becoming a man in a difficult environment...we could be talking about the real difficulties.
France is nice country, but ouvr values make it so you can see an old couple walking down the street, baguette in hand, while 3 kids with hoodies are somking pot in the corner of the same street.
On a positive note, mélenchon ahs given a voice to new young generation of citizens while making the old school communist crowd feels less like a stalinian reunion. People need to be heard and represented.
The extreme right wing is presnt in all of Europe, so it's not only the french who fail, but the lack of strong european ideas should be taken care of, as a demontration that size does matter, and people should concentrate on their future rather than live in fear.
Last but not least, Holland has a program. Sarkozy couldn't get one out even if his life depended on it.
I'm not forcing anybody's vote, but any moderatly interested in politics person, or well-behaved person, should have no problem choosing a candidate for the second scrutiny IF he/she is interested in being presented ideas.
If only people could get a graps that no matter your origin and color, smoking pot in the subway, generally behaving like Tony Montana is just a state between being a kid and becoming a man in a difficult environment...we could be talking about the real difficulties.
France is nice country, but ouvr values make it so you can see an old couple walking down the street, baguette in hand, while 3 kids with hoodies are somking pot in the corner of the same street.
On a positive note, mélenchon ahs given a voice to new young generation of citizens while making the old school communist crowd feels less like a stalinian reunion. People need to be heard and represented.
The extreme right wing is presnt in all of Europe, so it's not only the french who fail, but the lack of strong european ideas should be taken care of, as a demontration that size does matter, and people should concentrate on their future rather than live in fear.
Last but not least, Holland has a program. Sarkozy couldn't get one out even if his life depended on it.
I'm not forcing anybody's vote, but any moderatly interested in politics person, or well-behaved person, should have no problem choosing a candidate for the second scrutiny IF he/she is interested in being presented ideas.
theignoramus
Member
Marine Le Pen, the French Nick Griffin (minus the Holocaust denial) has an estimated 20% (sorry, 18%) of the first round votes? a fifth of French voters think a vulgar instigator is the person that best represents French interests? nice.
:lol
Why won't he debate then? I'm not fond of Sarkozy, which is why I was prepared to listen to the PS, but I didn't hear any program from him apart from "get rid of Sarkozy" and "war against finance"
edit: update the OP by the way, now that we have the official results, the estimates don't mean shit.
Don't know english counterparts, but:
- Chargé de Communication
- Agent administratif
- Travailleur social
- Educateur spécialisé (via concourse)
- Redacteur territorial (via concours)
... and i have been journalist for two years when i was a student.
I am very competent and qualified for a big range of jobs. The fuck is: there's a big bunch of Bac+2 (BTS) that takes all of our jobs (whereas we have a better formation, tbh). And in France, finding a jobs is more about acquaintances than competences and qualification.
Thanks for the answer. However I would argue that the networking part of finding a job is a global phenomena unfortunately
http://www.parti-socialiste.fr/dossier/le-projet-de-francois-hollande
and that's an easy to read version.
This is not a fight against Sarkozy, nor a question of bringing down the hammer on financial institutions.
Both have shown great greed and incompetence, and any shaft directed to them is one they've brought upon themselves.
I believe we're past this, and anybody who does not belong to the priviliged few (I'm not counting healthy people who earn 10 000€/month, being wealthy in the 21st century goes much beyond that, and if you use public transportations, pay taxes etc...sorry but you're not wealthy, and a turn of events can make your life miserable, like anyone else) should at least consider judging candidates on a program she/he has read. then your opinion can be validated by even your most aggressive detractor.
The french left wing is a reformed party, much more "centrist" than 20 years ago.
But he's going to in the one traditional debate between the two turns of the election. Sarkozy is just hoping to get an extra debate or two so he can rail on Hollande in the hope of getting some votes back.
That 3 debates thing is just pure Sarkozy :lol:
If Hollande accepts, Sarkozy gets 3 chances to win some votes and make Hollande seem weak.
If Hollande refuses, then Sarkozy and friends can then claim for 15 days that Hollande refuses to debate and is scared or without ideas. (well they already did that yesterday)
That's clever.
But in the end asking for something just shows that you need it to win.
If Hollande accepts, Sarkozy gets 3 chances to win some votes and make Hollande seem weak.
If Hollande refuses, then Sarkozy and friends can then claim for 15 days that Hollande refuses to debate and is scared or without ideas. (well they already did that yesterday)
That's clever.
But in the end asking for something just shows that you need it to win.
ComputerMKII
Banned
^ Thanks
To be fair, Hollande wanted three debates for the Socialist primary. It goes both ways. Three debates would be reasonable IMO, one on the economy/finance/buying power, one on security/immigration, and one on Europe/foreign affairs for example.
I'd rather have debates than both sides attacking each other at their meetings. A debate is a better way to choose.
To be fair, Hollande wanted three debates for the Socialist primary. It goes both ways. Three debates would be reasonable IMO, one on the economy/finance/buying power, one on security/immigration, and one on Europe/foreign affairs for example.
I'd rather have debates than both sides attacking each other at their meetings. A debate is a better way to choose.
Sarkozy rejected having two debates back in 2007, and there was only one between the two rounds of the primary.
I don't think people care that much about having 3, 5 or 16 debates. Most of them won't watch because everyone is just fed up with this campaign and/or already know who they'll vote for, and it's quite obvious that Sarko's team is now impersonating the unbearable little kid who provokes you and calls you chicken when you ignore him.
I don't think people care that much about having 3, 5 or 16 debates. Most of them won't watch because everyone is just fed up with this campaign and/or already know who they'll vote for, and it's quite obvious that Sarko's team is now impersonating the unbearable little kid who provokes you and calls you chicken when you ignore him.
Alx
Member
Well I don't agree. This campaign was boring because everybody was tip-toeing around the real problems and kept arguing that "the opposite side is bad" without giving much explanations. Both Sarkozy and Hollande haven't been really clear about how they expect to save things, especially on the economic front, and I'd like them to confront their programs very much. Especially as someone who doesn't like either of them.
But knowing them, I'll expect a lot of parlor tricks and few real answers...
There was only one, but Hollande wanted three IIRC? (not sure on this one)
Quite a lot of people don't care yes, but a lot of us do. BFM I think it was was saying the Bayrou voters were the most informed, the ones most following the election this year. They're the ones that both Hollande and Sarkozy can fight over. That's where a debate would come in handy.
This. I'm not a Sarkozy supporter by any means, I just think in 99% of cases a debate is better than no debate. And in this case three is better than one. We've spent the campaign with bullshit like halal, I want real debates on the real issues.
Right now I'm leaning Sarkozy, and Hollande refusing to debate only pushes me further away from him. The only way he could convince me is through debates, too bad for him if he doesn't care about my vote (not that I fault him given the polls).
But the programs are there, and they'll be confronted during a debate. One, which is enough imo. Especially since, as you're saying yourself, few answers are to be expected - after all Sarko wants to punch Hollande more than anything else.
Would you drag yourself through this 3 times ?
Yeah well, I have no joy in saying that I don't think Bayrou's voters are a priority anymore.
Not sure how I feel about locking an immigration debate solely into that context. Seems almost tailored for Sarkozy.
Really? Sarkozy loves talking about immigration but that doesn't mean he has the best ideas/that people think he has the best ideas.
I know a lot of people who are pissed about the Guéant directive for example, I'm sure Hollande could attack him on stuff like that. Immigration has been completely reduced to "fucking Arabs taking our jobs and our money!" these past few years, I think it'd be good to have a serious debate about the subject, since there is a lot more to it than that.
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