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[Veelk]

So is doomfist considered op

Yes, except when he's not. That's barely even a joke too.

He still needs more time to see if it's cooked up right. Apex just started and we'll see how much he's used and to what success. People are still getting used to him. People are still practicing with him. Good players can destroy players who don't know how to counter him, while bad players can destroy Doomfists that don't know how to manage their abilities.

He still needs more time, plain and simple.

Doomfist is getting a slight nerf on the PTR patch by virtue of every character being buffed is a counter to Doomfist. I'm not looking forward to that change.

Also, this. If Junkrat becomes viable, if Orisa becomes a main stream tank, if Roadhog pokes his head into the meta in any way, that's bad news bears for Doomfist.



Edit: On the matter of Orisa skins

OMG I WANT THIS SO MUCH

 

[Gurrry]

The problem is the move is fundamentally glitchy. That's what's bullshit, not that it's a OHK, that you can kill him first and still be killed by it. Roadhog's hook was a OHK but you could still counter it after you were hooked, and it was pretty easy to avoid if you have working ears. Doomfist is a lot more mobile and harder to predict. If I kill him while he's rocket punching I shouldn't be killed afterwards. And the hitbox for the move is giant. It's garbage. They need to tweak it to be more like hook 2.0 and not hook 1.0. You can have powerful moves that aren't also bullshit. Even for hook 1.0 though generally you had to be out of a barrier and out of position, Doomfist doesn't give a shit about either. If they reduce his hitbox while reducing the hitbox and bullshittery/glitchyness of rocket punch at the same time that's fair and makes sense.


And yeah, he sucks ass outside of it and even with it so maybe they should have designed him better.

Oh yeah, I should be more clear. This is in direct relation to the post on the OW reddit page. The main narrative there is that its completely broken and unfun to play against.

I want them to fix the glitchy parts about it. Zen shouldnt die if he kills DF first, and the mcree flashbang should always stop the kill. But I dont think he is OP at all given the amount of counters he has.

 

[Kakaroach]

I was floating in 2300-2400 Gold range for the majority of this season and am by far the lowest SR of our usual group. I don't think anybody from the six-stack last night is above 3100 so if you're at least mid-Gold you should be able to play with us.

Ah I thought everyone was plat+ haha. I'm 2010 SR, so maybe next season.

 

[LiK]

Ah I thought everyone was plat+ haha. I'm 2010 SR, so maybe next season.

This season has wrecked our SRs.

 

[Nuno Pinto]

i cant fucking solo q with this disaster ND are you on please save me

Nope sorry

I'll only be on later.

Whenever I soloq nowadays I always assume that I'm going to lose a ton, I can't play OW when the teams are all over the map... tanks on the left, dps on the right and the solo healer on the payload.

 

[LiK]

Nope sorry

I'll only be on later.

Whenever I soloq nowadays I always assume that I'm going to lose a ton, I can't play OW when the teams are all over the map... tanks on the left, dps on the right and the solo healer on the payload.

Our 6-stack last night was too good. ND is hooked.

 

[Veelk]

This season has wrecked our SRs.

Ironically, I finally risen from the ashes of Gold and have been on a slow but steady rise the entire season.

This started around the time Soldier's stupid damage was nerfed.

 

[Nuno Pinto]

Our 6-stack last night was too good. ND is hooked.

It was pretty good. I haven't played that much lately but both sessions I had yesterday were really pleasant. I think batman will be on tonight too. Cappa has to return to america lol

 

[THe_DeiCiDe]

Placed 3150 in Lucio ball. Was 7-0 but last 3 games 2 had a quitter after they gave up a quick goal and last game had an afk who got booted.

I always solo Q comp. It is wut it is, most of the time I wonder how the 5 people on my team got out of bronze.

 

[papasmurf1038]

I think I'd be less annoyed by insta-lock DPS players if they could ever land like, any damage. Played some Mercy games for the first time in a while today and nothing on the enemy team was dying at all, really frustrating.

 

[LiK]

Rooting for Taiwan.

 

[Gorillaz]

I'm so tired of winston and dva that im actually going back to rein and a little bit of zarya holy shit

 

[AbaFadi]

How is she still broken? Don't tell me you think DM needs to go as that is her entire kit now.

DM is a very oppressive ability that's very unfun to play against. A good dva makes a huge part of the roster unplayable for the majority of team fights. Winston paired with a Dva has very little counter play unless you're running the same thing yourself.

I feel like everybody has a different definition of "broken."

To me, Reinhardt's hammer not actually hitting/doing damage is broken. Doomfist's hitbox extending well beyond where it should hit is broken. A character doing what they're designed to do well isn't broken.

My definition of broken here is op, as in too strong and needs to be adjusted.

 

[LiK]

Counter DVa with Zen discord and Zarya. She'll melt. When I'm Zen, I'll just spam primary at her or charged shots cuz she can't DM me forever. Works most of the time unless she tries to target me directly to take me out.

 

[Finn of Ooo]

If they changed defense matrix to act more like deflect, where you have a set window and then a cool down, do you guys think that would improve the ability or make Dva useless?

 

[Cappa]

It was pretty good. I haven't played that much lately but both sessions I had yesterday were really pleasant. I think batman will be on tonight too. Cappa has to return to america lol

Im going to see if I can keep myself awake long enough to play with you guys I have the Overwatch itch again

 

[AbaFadi]

Counter DVa with Zen discord and Zarya. She'll melt. When I'm Zen, I'll just spam primary at her or charged shots cuz she can't DM me forever. Works most of the time unless she tries to target me directly to take me out.

That only works if the Dva likes to feed though. Any Dva smart enough will avoid a 1v1 situation with Zarya unless she has a team to back her up.

 

[LiK]

Is Brazil out? They did pretty bad.

That only works if the Dva likes to feed though. Any Dva smart enough will avoid a 1v1 situation with Zarya unless she has a team to back her up.

Yup, she'll most likely flee, but I always like shooting a DVa from afar as Zen cuz she's so busy DMing my teammates that she's too distracted to DM me directly. I like to be sneaky and shoot her side or back.

 

[Jellie]

If they changed defense matrix to act more like deflect, where you have a set window and then a cool down, do you guys think that would improve the ability or make Dva useless?

That's how it was before and she was kinda useless then.

 

[Azoor]

I just had a match where out Zenyatta just outdamaged our DPS, he took care of himself without protection against the enemy team, man he was good.

 

[Finn of Ooo]

That's how it was before and she was kinda useless then.

Oh that's right, I barely played before they changed it. Forget it used to act like that, I suppose it would just be a worse version of deflect in that case.

 

[Nocturnowl]

Sometimes I forget how silly the range on Dragonblade is, I got killed by one that looked so suspect I had to go back and watch and pause on the moment before my Zen crumples into a heap, in the nanonsecond before death Genji's entire blade swing afterimage is visible and it's just not close enough to warrant chopping my remaining 90 odd health off.

HE CAN'T KEEP GETTING AWAY WITH THIS!

 

[IKizzLE]

How is she still broken? Don't tell me you think DM needs to go as that is her entire kit now.

Broken? Nah. Most annoying low risk, high reward character in the game? Yup. With a press of a button, she nullifies far too much. DM is worst than scatter and pre roadhog hook for the whole fact that the entire team suffers from such an oppressive and easy to use ability.

 

[Prelude.]

They just need to add a character that straight up counters her, without the drawbacks of the current ones, since they have to do A LOT just to counter a right click with no cd.

Basically a ranged, medium damage character that shoots something that ignores DM.

 

[LiK]

LASER ARROWS

 

[xCobalt]

Broken? Nah. Most annoying low risk, high reward character in the game? Yup. With a press of a button, she nullifies far too much. DM is worst than scatter and pre roadhog hook for the whole fact that the entire team suffers from such an oppressive and easy to use ability.

Agreed. I personally don't have a problem with any of the ohko abilities but DM can be quite annoying. The ability to nullify ultimates really is a game changer.

 

[LiK]

So would you guys prefer DM lessens damage over straight up nullifying it? Like maybe it cuts down by 50-75%?

 

[Prelude.]

So would you guys prefer DM lessens damage over straight up nullifying it? Like maybe it cuts down by 50-75%?

That's how it works in HotS and that's a much better solution. Eating ults has always been pretty silly after they removed the cd.

 

[Veelk]

So would you guys prefer DM lessens damage over straight up nullifying it? Like maybe it cuts down by 50-75%?

No! No nerf to DM.

It's fine. The counters to D.Va are all available in characters like Winston and Zarya and Mei. Even characters who are DM-able are can slaughter a D.Va that's caught out. And if Roadhog makes it back into the meta, he can force that much more.

Sorry that some people don't like DM, but I'm pretty much over nerfing things on the basis of "Some people don't find it fun", when it's plenty fun for others, like the ones who are using it.

The most I'd say is take off a second of it's charge. 3 Seconds instead of 4. Maybe give it an indicator when it's about to go down so people know when to counter. But taking away DM's function would be the D.Va equivalent of the quiet murder they did to Roadhog. I don't want that.

 

[xCobalt]

I think making her DM reduce incoming damage would be a pretty big nerf. It wouldn't deter opponents and they would just try to burn her down asap. Increasing the cooldown between each DM could be a solution. I believe it's only 1 second right now but increasing it to 2 or 3 seconds will allow teams to react accordingly once dva has used her DM.

 

[Veelk]

I think making her DM reduce incoming damage would be a pretty big nerf. It wouldn't deter opponents and they would just try to burn her down asap. Increasing the cooldown between each DM could be a solution. I believe it's only 1 second right now but increasing it to 2 or 3 seconds will allow teams to react accordingly once dva has used her DM.

That's a dicey change. It might work, but the fact is that the threat from D.Va's DM is that it can come at any time or nearly so since it's on a 1 second cooldown. If it's on a significant cooldown, then you have that space where D.Va is absolutely no threat whatsoever. That's a big difference maker.

That's why I suggested lowering the time she can keep the DM up instead. Make D.Va's have to choose the important moments to apply it rather than just having enemies use the obvious way to catch her out.

 

[Incendiary]

DM is a very oppressive ability that's very unfun to play against. A good dva makes a huge part of the roster unplayable for the majority of team fights. Winston paired with a Dva has very little counter play unless you're running the same thing yourself.



My definition of broken here is op, as in too strong and needs to be adjusted.

DVa's DM has basically been the same (aside from the tweak they did a few months ago) for a long time - it's only in the last two months or so with the rise of the dive meta being the main meta that suddenly everyone says DVa is OP and that DM isn't fun.

Before that, when trip tank meta was going on, it was Reinhardt's shield that was unfun because nobody had an ability like it and you had to run Rein to counter Rein. Or Roadhog's unfun because he can OHKO every 6 seconds. Or Zarya's unfun because her bubbles have no counter.

Like...every tank has an ability that makes things harder for the enemy team to do damage because, well, the point of a tank is to soak up damage. Maybe it's because DVa's been my favorite tank/best tank character for a while but I know the ins and outs of her DM and I know how to get around it when I'm playing against one. I never feel like she is OP or awful to play against. And on top of that there are a lot of extraordinarily bad DVas out there. I don't think DVa needs to be adjusted at all - I think adjustments to other heroes are more important, and will likely change how people view OPness.

 

[Prelude.]

There's nothing in the game that's a real counter to the current implementation of DM, there's nothing as easy as an on/off switch that any character can do to properly counter her. Zarya has to get high charge; Symmetra Mei has to survive in near-melee range; Sombra needs to be in range and channel her hack in about a second without taking damage after announcing publicly she came out of stealth, hoping the team can burst her down in 6 seconds; Winston gets destroyed while he takes 10 minutes tickling her out of her mech; Rein can't get close since the triple tank meta is not a thing anymore. The amount of effort it takes to counter that ability is incredibly disproportionate to what she has to do in order to negate 95% of the damage output in the game.

 

[Veelk]

There's nothing in the game that's a real counter to the current implementation of DM, there's nothing as easy as an on/off switch that any character can do to properly counter her. Zarya has to get high charge; Symmetra Mei has to survive in near-melee range; Sombra needs to be in range and channel her hack in about a second without taking damage after announcing publicly she came out of stealth, hoping the team can burst her down in 6 seconds; Winston gets destroyed while he takes 10 minutes tickling her out of her mech; Rein can't get close since the triple tank meta is not a thing anymore.

These aren't flaws. There shouldn't be a character that can effortlessly delete any other character to the point where they have to risk nothing. Yeah, of course Sombra has to be in range to hack her. What, should Sombra be able to hack characters across the map? Should Mei be able to freeze characters from a distance?

No. If any character is countered that easily, then they're basically obsolete and useless.

 

[Azoor]

Remember when the tank meta died and everyone said D.va is weak, now they say she is too strong. Strange how powers shift in this game.

 

[Prelude.]

These aren't flaws. There shouldn't be a character that can effortlessly delete any other character to the point where they have to risk nothing. Yeah, of course Sombra has to be in range to hack her. What, should Sombra be able to hack characters across the map? Should Mei be able to freeze characters from a distance?

No. If any character is countered that easily, then they're basically obsolete and useless.

So, basically, since Pharah or Widow are in the game most of the characters are obsolete and useless?

 

[Psychoward]

He's plenty viable. He has the highest win rate of any DPS in Competitive right now.

I mean he's been barely out for a week idk

 

[Veelk]

So, basically, since Pharah or Widow are in the game most of the characters are obsolete and useless?

The hell? No, the point isn't that long range characters/abilities can't work. The point is that you're suggesting that characters have to risk something to counter DM as if that's a bad thing. And I say that's how it should be.

 

[Alucrid]

These aren't flaws. There shouldn't be a character that can effortlessly delete any other character to the point where they have to risk nothing. Yeah, of course Sombra has to be in range to hack her. What, should Sombra be able to hack characters across the map? Should Mei be able to freeze characters from a distance?

No. If any character is countered that easily, then they're basically obsolete and useless.

but that's basically what DM is to a bunch of the roster?

 

[Blues1990]

Oh, boy. The peanut gallery in the OWL Twitch stream are making comparisons to the Holocaust, with regards to Team Germany VS. Team Israel.

 

[LiK]

Remember when the tank meta died and everyone said D.va is weak, now they say she is too strong. Strange how powers shift in this game.

S1/2: Too weak!
S3: Too strong!
S4: Weak again!
S5: OP!

Rollercoaster ride.

 

[Prelude.]

The hell? No, the point isn't that long range characters can't work. The point is that you're suggesting that characters have to risk something to counter DM as if that's a bad thing. And I say that's how it should be.

You're missing the point, it's not about "risking something", it's about "there's nothing actually effective". Right now it's "yeah, that kinda works, sometimes, if I'm lucky".
That's not how rock-paper-scissors counter play works.

DM is simply not balanced right now, there's not even a discernible window between right clicks. It's the same garbage design as Mercy's res, instead of "ok, let's find the hidden mercy so we can play the game" it's "ok, let's get d.va out of her mech, so we can play the game".

 

[Kakaroach]

As a new player, I'm surprised D. Va was ever considered weak. Defense Matrix by itself would lead me to think she would always be somewhat useful.

 

[Alucrid]

As a new player, I'm surprised D. Va was ever considered weak. Defense Matrix by itself would lead me to think she would always be somewhat useful.

it used to be that defense matrix didn't have a gauge that recharged over time with a short cool down timer. it was like any other ability in the game, use it, it lasts for a duration, then it goes on a long cool down.

 

[Veelk]

but that's basically what DM is to a bunch of the roster?

No. It stops damage, which means the character has to do something else. There's less wiggleroom for some characters than others in that, but there's rarely a case where you're utterly hopeless against a D.Va DMing you.

You're missing the point, it's not about "risking something", it's about "there's nothing actually effective". Right now it's "yeah, that kinda works, sometimes, if I'm lucky".
That's not how rock-paper-scissors counter play works.

DM is simply not balanced right now, there's not even a discernible window between right clicks. It's the same garbage design as Mercy's res, instead of "ok, let's find the hidden mercy so we can play the game" it's "ok, let's get d.va out of her mech, so we can play the game".

Nope. Disagree with this completely. If you see D.Va DMing, I know how to counterplay that in most characters, even if it's as simple as "Okay, I'll go focus on someone else for now then". Disengaging to get a more advantageous encounter is a legitimate strategy because as soon as you get one pick off the enemy team, the composition doesn't matter as 5v6 is a bigger advantage than any one character can offer. Overwatch isn't pure Rock-Paper-Scissors gameplay in any case. Characters that are counters have advantages over other characters, they're rarely a pure hard "you will lose 99% of the time" counters. And there shouldn't be. Characters that are countered that easily would be nothing but liability.

 

[Alucrid]

i'd probably be fine with DM if they put in a visual indicator regarding how low dva's DM meter is. shields have cracks to tell us the health of them, dva's DM should show something similar. and increased the cool down slightly

 

[Psychoward]

speaking of d.va, i had 412 hp in my mech and got one shotted by a scatter arrow


que

 

[Veelk]

speaking of d.va, i had 412 hp in my mech and got one shotted by a scatter arrow


que

You probably got hit by someone else while getting hit by scatter.

 

[AbaFadi]

DVa's DM has basically been the same (aside from the tweak they did a few months ago) for a long time - it's only in the last two months or so with the rise of the dive meta being the main meta that suddenly everyone says DVa is OP and that DM isn't fun.

Before that, when trip tank meta was going on, it was Reinhardt's shield that was unfun because nobody had an ability like it and you had to run Rein to counter Rein. Or Roadhog's unfun because he can OHKO every 6 seconds. Or Zarya's unfun because her bubbles have no counter.

Like...every tank has an ability that makes things harder for the enemy team to do damage because, well, the point of a tank is to soak up damage. Maybe it's because DVa's been my favorite tank/best tank character for a while but I know the ins and outs of her DM and I know how to get around it when I'm playing against one. I never feel like she is OP or awful to play against. And on top of that there are a lot of extraordinarily bad DVas out there. I don't think DVa needs to be adjusted at all - I think adjustments to other heroes are more important, and will likely change how people view OPness.

Her matrix buff a few months ago actually removed all the counter play matrix had already. People seriously underestimate how huge that buff was. Pro players and people in gm don't know how to get around a defense matrix because there's no way around it. IMO winston and dva are the two heroes that need adjustments the most right now.

 

[TheRedSnifit]

The hell? No, the point isn't that long range characters/abilities can't work. The point is that you're suggesting that characters have to risk something to counter DM as if that's a bad thing. And I say that's how it should be.

It's problematic in a game that's balanced around hero switching and counters.

When 2/3 of the characters have absolutely crippling counters and 1/3 are good in pretty much any situation, it's no wonder that you see the same 6-8 classes every match. Generalists and specialists isn't necessarily bad balancing (see: TF2), but that's clearly not what Blizzard is going for, or what OW players want.