Support NeoGAF

[Skii]

do you think every top level game should be genji vs tracer or something?

No but those characters are designed in such a specific way that you cannot make them meta without making them overpowered like they did with Bastion initially or what we are seeing with Junkrat now.

And they buffed Mercy so much that absolute idiots are getting to top 500 with her and now they completely need to rework her to fix the game. And even then, the rework will most likely make her even more popular because she'll actually be really good in the right hands.

 

[Veelk]

No but those characters are designed in such a specific way that you cannot make them meta without making them overpowered like they did with Bastion initially or what we are seeing with Junkrat now.

And they buffed Mercy so much that absolute idiots are getting to top 500 with her and now they completely need to rework her to fix the game. And even then, the rework will most likely make her even more popular because she'll actually be really good in the right hands.

Junkrat is fine right now. People are just adjusting to playing around him since he was used so infrequently that he was essentially nonexistent.

If balancing those characters means we get them to where Junkrat is right now, I say bring it on.

 

[Carl-Sagan]

That's perfectly fine.

Characters like Bastion, Junkrat, Mei, Mercy etc. should be for silver/gold level players who are learning the game. They shouldn't be serious characters at the top level.

This mentality is totally wrong in numerous ways.

mildly excited. what's the reception so far on the map?
inb4 it's not 2cp so its good.

Overall positive, at least from what I heard of people. I haven't played it yet but I did enjoy the stream where Seagull was playing on that map.

 

[Anne]

Shitting on Mei in 2017 when she's been in/out of meta and niche pick status multiple times now.

Mercy is a legitimate problem, but that's more than just "hurr durr moron top 500 Mercy main." Shit's nuanced as fuck compared to that nonsense. Hopefully she gets fixed to be a better fit. The rez thing and what she is a lot easier to work around then turret man at least.

Don't even get me started st Junkrat. They could totally add skill expression to him and make him better all in one go so that he's viable with his current kit. Why they didn't add skill expression to his gun when they decided to look at buff options is beyond me though.

I know I bitch about mechanics not being rewarded enough in this game, but it's not like the base kits can't be worked around for less intensive heroes to get more for it. The real problem is the huge deniers like Winston/D.Va on that front, and to some extent Mercy.

 

[antitrop]

Junkrat is fine right now. People are just adjusting to playing around him since he was used so infrequently that he was essentially nonexistent.

If balancing those characters means we get them to where Junkrat is right now, I say bring it on.

You can't play around the new RIPTire. It's actually broken and is not in any way "fine".

 

[Dead Prince]

speaking of mercy. i was recording my gameplay from last nigh SoloQ session.

https://youtu.be/Beq3e1_RZ5g?t=36m53s

The final game in the video is from eichenwalde. where the dude from the other duo shits on the mercy and then leaves voice chat.

 

[Crzy1]

You can't play around the new RIPTire. It's actually broken and is not in any way "fine".

I think the spamming two remote bombs one after the other is the main problem with him right now. Sure it's great against harder to reach characters now, but it destroys everyone. I don't even try to use it strategically anymore, it's basically a free win button if anyone pushes in too close now. Riptire is much more effective than it was, but could definitely go for having it's uptime being much lower. As it is, I constantly have it available when I'm playing Rat but that may be what you mean.

But I don't look at team comp too hard right now. If we don't have Junkrat, I pick him because he's stupid effective for now.

 

[Skii]

Junkrat is fine right now. People are just adjusting to playing around him since he was used so infrequently that he was essentially nonexistent.

If balancing those characters means we get them to where Junkrat is right now, I say bring it on.

Junkrat isn't fine lmao. He's completely ruining pro players because no one can shoot his ult. Its free kills. And I'm not too thrilled doubling his easy as fuck AOE mines.

I don't understand how people enjoy playing against good Junkrats. It's just pure abuse of overpowered abilities.

This mentality is totally wrong in numerous ways.

Why? Why should every character be totally viable in every situation?

 

[CybernatonEvolution]

Shitting on Mei in 2017 when she's been in/out of meta and niche pick status multiple times now.

Mercy is a legitimate problem, but that's more than just "hurr durr moron top 500 Mercy main." Shit's nuanced as fuck compared to that nonsense. Hopefully she gets fixed to be a better fit. The rez thing and what she is a lot easier to work around then turret man at least.

Don't even get me started st Junkrat. They could totally add skill expression to him and make him better all in one go so that he's viable with his current kit. Why they didn't add skill expression to his gun when they decided to look at buff options is beyond me though.

I know I bitch about mechanics not being rewarded enough in this game, but it's not like the base kits can't be worked around for less intensive heroes to get more for it. The real problem is the huge deniers like Winston/D.Va on that front, and to some extent Mercy.

You just hate Winston because I play him. Duel me now.

 

[antitrop]

I think the spamming two remote bombs one after the other is the main problem with him right now. Sure it's great against harder to reach characters now, but it destroys everyone. I don't even try to use it strategically anymore, it's basically a free win button if anyone pushes in too close now. Riptire is much more effective than it was, but could definitely go for having it's uptime being much lower. As it is, I constantly have it available when I'm playing Rat but that may be what you mean.

But I don't look at team comp too hard right now. If we don't have Junkrat, I pick him because he's stupid effective for now.

The Tire itself is broken, it can climb up a wall, hit the fucking skybox, and drop in on you like a targeted drone strike without even making a sound. It's bullshit.

And even if it's a noob Junkrat that doesn't know how to do all the crazy wallclimbing tricks with the Tire, the thing still moves so fast that it's hard to destroy on an obvious path anyway.

Then with the extra Mine that he has now, he does more DPS, which means he naturally charges his Ult faster than he did before (Blizzard ALWAYS forgets to nerf Ult charge when they buff a hero's DPS to compensate), so the whole thing is just a mess.

 

[Data West]

Why? Why should every character be totally viable in every situation?

because tracer and genji pretty much are

a selection of heroes, almost always high mobility ones, are viable in FAR more situations than others, almost always defense heroes

 

[Veelk]

You can't play around the new RIPTire. It's actually broken and is not in any way "fine".

Junkrat isn't fine lmao. He's completely ruining pro players because no one can shoot his ult. Its free kills.

Okay, let me rephrase. Junkrat is fine except for the thing that is already looked at and in line for a nerf soon.

His double mine aka his normal type of gameplay and what I was referring to is perfectly fine tho.

Why? Why should every character be totally viable in every situation?

Because a rank isn't a "situation".

 

[antitrop]

Okay, let me rephrase. Junkrat is fine except for the thing that is already looked at and in line for a nerf soon.

It's taking too long. The game has been in the dumpster since then and they're taking their sweet fucking time about it.

 

[Veelk]

It's taking too long. The game has been in the dumpster since then and they're taking their sweet fucking time about it.

*shrug*

Blizzard works in mysterious, slow ways.

And this isn't as bad as the bastion update. It only lasted a week on PC, but on consoles it was over a month. And Bastion didn't have to get his ult up to be overpowered, he just had to exist. That was legitimately the worst Overwatch ever was.

In comparison to that, the junkrat ult is a mild problem at best.

 

[Carl-Sagan]

Why? Why should every character be totally viable in every situation?

Now you're backpedaling yourself out of your original position, since you realized your argument is weak. The point that you originally made is "these characters should be played in silver/gold and shouldn't be serious in the top level". By 'top level' I assume that you're considering Masters, Grand Masters, Top 500, and pro play. Since this player base is at the peak of the community.

All heroes should be viable. You simply can't define "every situation" because that's almost impossible to figure out. There are some heroes that have made themselves viable in a lot of scenarios. Pro play it has been demonstrated time again that Lucio is played [taking a fit number for this] 9 out of 10 games. Overwatch's basic design philosophy around hero design and buffing heroes is to make every single hero "overpowered". That means they have done their job right. Now can you make an argument that Junkrat currently in his state is overly buffed? Sure. That's an entirely new argument and skirts around this point that you made about the "no brain, no aim" heroes should be played in only silver/gold.

All heroes have their certain niche to them that makes each and every hero viable. Team composition, team communication, map, attacking or defense side, countering other heroes, coordination, etc. all factor into your team's hero choice. This is Overwatch. A team based shooter where people shouldn't one trick and actually play what is viable at the point in time to win the match. By you saying "oh these heroes shouldn't be played in higher level", you're literally translating to the other players that you want only flashy heroes played at a high skill ceiling in pro play and competitive ladder. Taking a quote I heard from stream by a reputable player (Seagull), the game has turned from a point and click shooting and now favors high mobility heroes. And that's fine. This doesn't directly mean you can't play heroes that can be annoying to heroes that are centered around mobility.

Your point is weak and I'd consider reevaluating your argument.

 

[MartyStu]

I don't know, I'd say that big group rez's is what Mercy's known as and they changed that. They could tweak things around.

I mean, removing turret mode makes Bastion a different character.

At this point, I do not think the character is worth salvaging.

The other defense characters like Mei are actually not beyond hope.

 

[caesar]

Bastion's gimmick prevents him from being a regular. His turret form is insanely powerful (in dealing out damage).

So you have to give him a lot of vulnerabilities (which is what he has now) or else he dominates the game.

There's no middleground with him unless they signfiicantly nerf the turret form. And I don't see how they can do that without making that worthless because it's already giving up mobility, which is the arguably the most valuable thing in a character.

So what do?

So he's in a good place? He's a niche hero that works in some circumstances, I don't see how that's a problem.

 

[Veelk]

So he's in a good place? He's a niche hero that works in some circumstances, I don't see how that's a problem.

I wasn't saying it was. I was just spitballing on how one could make him more of a generalized hero if one was so inclined. His design makes it a challenge to do so.

Not that I necessarily agree that he shouldn't be changed. A Niche hero can be fine, but niche is a bit of a strong word for what Bastion is. He current place, as far as I can tell, is to be a desperate last hold defense against unexpecting attackers whereupon, if the defense succeeds, you immediately switch off to something else. That's a really shitty place to be at.

I just don't see how to move him out of it without either basically making him an entirely new character.

 

[Blues1990]

I mean, removing turret mode makes Bastion a different character.

At this point, I do not think the character is worth salvaging.

The other defense characters like Mei are actually not beyond hope.

What bothers me the most, is Mei is used more as a "staller" instead of "anti-flanker/defense hero" as she was meant to be. While I don't want all of these changes to happen, some of them would be great to help her viability, along with making the character more to the role she was designed for.

 

[caesar]

I wasn't saying it was. I was just spitballing on how one could make him more of a generalized hero if one was so inclined. His design makes it a challenge to do so.

Not that I necessarily agree that he shouldn't be changed. A Niche hero can be fine, but niche is a bit of a strong word for what Bastion is. He current place, as far as I can tell, is to be a desperate last hold defense against attackers whereupon, if the defense succeeds, you immediately switch off to something else. That's a really shitty place to be at.

I just don't see how to move him out of it without either basically making him an entirely new character.

Disagree with his current place, he is much stronger attacking on first point payload. I've seen him work multiple times on Dorado and R66 just sitting on the payload with a Rein or Orisa. If he has enough pocketing and shielding he's a major pain in the ass to kill in these situations. It's not like you can pick genji and deflect in his face anymore. Bringing him out for a last defence is one of the worst uses for him in my opinion.

 

[Terareflection]

Did you get to Masters at all? You were so close last time I checked.

lol not at all. Got to an career high that was one win away and then it all goes downhill from there.

 

[Skii]

because tracer and genji pretty much are

And they are the two hardest characters to master in this game by far... It's almost like you should be rewarded for getting good at the game...

 

[Anne]

I wll say I don't think every hero should be viable honestly. Other games have issues where designs are just turds and don't work well within the game. They either let them rot because it's not worth salvaging, or they end up doing big LoL style reworks.

Other times it's okay to have options that are there for lower skill players that aren't going to be strong at high level play. Those are extreme cases that don't really exist in OW (they don't have the roster size to even think about supporting that design). That does not mean easy characters inherently need to be bad at high level. It means if you have the roster space to make something like that go for it. When it gets too extreme and hard to balance, like Mercy, you have to redo the skill > power ratio nonsense or just doom the thing to new player tier. Dooming Mercy is about the worst idea ever so fuck it rework her.

OW doesn't really have that luxury because of the small roster and the way they sell these dudes like Pixar heroes. Even then, Bastion's current design isn't worth saving, and I don't expect them to change it from turret man. Would be better to let it rot at that point.

And they are the two hardest characters to master in this game by far... It's almost like you should be rewarded for getting good at the game...

The problem with the mechanical skill reward doesn't have to do with low skill heroes. It has to do with a combination of mechanics nuking the impact mechanical skill can have across the board.

 

[Shredderi]

Junkrat is fine aside form his ulti. Junkrat now represents a small step closer to the dream of having a pretty reliable genji/tracer demolisher should they come close, instead of chasing after Genji with a winston while fighting against Zen's healing orb on genji. I fucking love ripping Genji's and Tracer's face off with the mines. They fucking deserve it since they have been so uber viable.

Genji is the always overpowered hero to me still and I don't see nerfs coming his way. It's like blizz went out of their way to make him super viable and baby him with all the leeways he gets with retaining his ulti meter after getting shut down while ulti init.

 

[caesar]

Junkrat is fine aside form his ulti. Junkrat now represents a small step closer to the dream of having a pretty reliable genji/tracer demolisher should they come close, instead of chasing after Genji with a winston while fighting against Zen's healing orb on genji. I fucking love ripping Genji's and Tracer's face off with the mines. They fucking deserve it since they have been so uber viable.

Genji is the always overpowered hero to me still and I don't see nerfs coming his way. It's like blizz went out of their way to make him super viable and baby him with all the leeways he gets with retaining his ulti meter after getting shut down while ulti init.

Blizz went out of their way to nerf the shit out of Genji. What exactly is overpowered about him now?

 

[Anne]

I think Genji stays viable because he's an extremely well designed hero that's pretty easy to balance by just touching basic numbers.

Junkrat is a lot harder to balance because the skill expression in his kit is borderline not there, and it's a pretty limited kit to begin with.

 

[CybernatonEvolution]

And they are the two hardest characters to master in this game by far... It's almost like you should be rewarded for getting good at the game...

Ana and Widow are harder to master.

 

[Jellie]

Ana and Widow are harder to master.

Did you get that from a your overwatch or stylosa video?

 

[CybernatonEvolution]

Did you get that from a your overwatch or stylosa video?

Yes. Stylosa is a legit GM with three solo queue accounts in that rank. I trust him more than someone who loses in Bronze games.

 

[Shredderi]

Blizz went out of their way to nerf the shit out of Genji. What exactly is overpowered about him now?

He just overall has such a large and good kit. I have under 1h as genji and when in the once blue moon I decide to pick him I can do some serious fucking harm to the enemy team with my piss poor Genji skills. He is clearly designed to be the kind of hero that has a super lot of potential if one takes the time to master him. I feel like most other characters in the game aren't like that and thus I think Genji doesn't gel well with the others because of that. I think it's true you have to kind of overpower the other less skill based characters in order for them to be able to compete with such characters.

 

[Anne]

He just overall has such a large and good kit. I have under 1h as genji and when in the once blue moon I decide to pick him I can do some serious fucking harm to the enemy team with my piss poor Genji skills. He is clearly designed to be the kind of hero that has a super lot of potential if one takes the time to master him. I feel like most other characters in the game aren't like that and thus I think Genji doesn't gel well with the others because of that. I think it's true you have to kind of overpower the other less skill based characters in order for them to be able to compete with such characters.

Spoilers: The fact that other heroes aren't based around having versatile kits that actually require you to land hits and manage CDs properly is exactly why the game is an unbalanced mess.

Spoilers: The game is a lot more fun when it's about landing hits and timing abilities well, not playing a rotating numbers game with one trick heroes with few actual mechanics to learn.

Spoilers: Maybe other characters should be more like Genji and less like Junkrat.

 

[pizzacat]

Yeah more characters should be designed well enough to have as much tools as genji and not designed lazily like the whole cast

 

[Data West]

Spoilers: The game is a lot more fun when it's about landing hits and timing abilities well, not playing a rotating numbers game with one trick heroes with few actual mechanics to learn.

Spoilers: Sounds like you just want a MOBA with everyone as a gray blob with far too similar abilities.

 

[Schlep]

After watching the Junkertown video, it really feels like the Queen will be the next hero. They go out of their way to mention her over and over. Would also make sense since there haven't been any new tanks in the game.

 

[pizzacat]

Spoilers: Sounds like you just want a MOBA with everyone as a gray blob with far too similar abilities.

That sounds a lot like actual ow where the new heroes all have reworks of abilities we've seen before

 

[Chance]

After watching the Junkertown video, it really feels like the Queen will be the next hero. They go out of their way to mention her over and over. Would also make sense since there haven't been any new tanks in the game.

I agree with this hypothesis except the part where it forgets Orisa is a new tank.

 

[Saucycarpdog]

After watching the Junkertown video, it really feels like the Queen will be the next hero. They go out of their way to mention her over and over. Would also make sense since there haven't been any new tanks in the game.

Besides Orisa?

Imo, we need a new healer that can shake the meta up.

 

[Gorillaz]

off the top of my head orisa is the only one where I hate everything about her kit to her design

never seen such a trash character and it felt like it was blizz trying to just there quota for hero release

the healer section NEEDS to be next in terms of new characters, unless we get some more weird work arounds with already existing that pool of hero's is honestly no bueno

 

[Chance]

off the top of my head orisa is the only one where I hate everything about her kit to her design

never seen such a trash character and it felt like it was blizz trying to just there quota for hero release

I love halt tho.

 

[Schlep]

I agree with this hypothesis except the part where it forgets Orisa is a new tank.

Wow, you're right. My mind was elsewhere. Maybe the Queen is the new defense character (finally).

 

[Anne]

Spoilers: Sounds like you just want a MOBA with everyone as a gray blob with far too similar abilities.

Because in order for characters to have kits that can be multidimensional and require skill they have to all be generic whatevers that do the same shit.

We already have lots of characters in the game that have kits like this. Genji, Tracer, Soldier, McCree, Sombra, Zarya, Zen, etc. All those characters have gotten out of line before, and they've been brought back in pretty easily without major adjustments to their kits.

Meanwhile things like Bastion, Roadhog, D.Va, Junkrat, Mercy, etc. have had multiple turns in the balancing booth with entire mechanics getting changed and they either end up busted or trash. It's like there's precedent in the game for what works well and what doesn't or something.

 

[LiK]

off the top of my head orisa is the only one where I hate everything about her kit to her design

never seen such a trash character and it felt like it was blizz trying to just there quota for hero release

the healer section NEEDS to be next in terms of new characters, unless we get some more weird work arounds with already existing that pool of hero's is honestly no bueno

Buffed Orisa is way better.

 

[Blues1990]

off the top of my head orisa is the only one where I hate everything about her kit to her design

never seen such a trash character and it felt like it was blizz trying to just there quota for hero release

the healer section NEEDS to be next in terms of new characters, unless we get some more weird work arounds with already existing that pool of hero's is honestly no bueno

With regards to the "healer section", I can't be the only one who wants a Support Hero that keeps allies alive through unconventional means, rather than just having another conventional medic?

 

[pizzacat]

With regards to the "healer section", I can't be the only one who wants a Support Hero that keeps allies alive through unconventional means, rather than just having another conventional medic?

you already have a lady that shoots heal juice at people and a dude that has heal jams what more do you want

 

[exYle]

Wow, you're right. My mind was elsewhere. Maybe the Queen is the new defense character (finally).

Please no. Defense is just DPS with area of denial skills. The OW community's toxicity will continue to rise unabated until there are a roughly equal amount of healers, tanks, and DPS characters.

Seriously. I'm gonna be upset if another character that has no tanking or healing abilities is released before 2019.

 

[MartyStu]

you already have a lady that shoots heal juice at people and a dude that has heal jams what more do you want

Agreed.

Half the healers in this game are pretty unconventional. I expect the ratio to slide in their favor with newer healers.

 

[Chance]

With regards to the "healer section", I can't be the only one who wants a Support Hero that keeps allies alive through unconventional means, rather than just having another conventional medic?

Carlisle The Shetland Pony underwent torturous gene therapies at the hands of TALON's murderous scientists, with an aim of resurrecting a long-extinct lineage of tiny Unicorns - the ultimate goal being sole production rights to this Holiday season's hottest toy.

Horrified that his corrupted DNA would be used to further the goals of the terrorist organization, Carlisle cut his way from the bowels of TALON's Luxembourg facility with his diamond-hard horn, and sought out the erstwhile members of the Overwatch team, taking solace in the companionship of McCree's stable of Black Andalusians.

McCree, ever-observant, discovered that the Franken-unicorn's magical rainbow-banded poo could heal any ailment when applied to the affected area, and before long Carlisle was invited on the most dangerous of the newly-resurfaced Overwatch agents' operations.

Primary Fire : Just the Tip : Carlisle lunges forward a short 5 meters with his horn outstretched, dealing 40 damage to all enemies in his path. 4 second cooldown.

Secondary Fire : Parry : With blinding speed, Carlisle reflects the next incoming attack (limit 1), and has brief invincibility. 4 second cooldown, 1 second duration.

Passive : Irritable Bowels : Without the digestive fortitude of the Unicorns his brutalized DNA is based on, Carlisle drops a shimmering dookie after moving 3 meters in any direction. When stepped on by an ally, a glittering explosion of magical origin erupts, healing any ally and Carlisle himself for 50 hp. Up to 10 Dookies can be present on the field at one time. Explosion has a 6 yard radius.

Passive : Gleeful Gallop : Carlisle moves at 1.5 normal movement speed.

Passive : Adorable! : He's no taller than Torb, but his head hitbox is Ana-sized.

Ultimate Ability : Sparklelord's Glamour : Carlisle smashes his horn into the ground to produce an explosive detonation of sparkly majicks, briefly blinding all ennemies within 20 meters and stunning them for 0.5 seconds, interrupting all chanelled abilities. Additonally, all movement-impairing abilities are removed from Carlisle and his allies.

 

[Gorillaz]

what

edit: better trademark that before kaplan uses it

 

[Blues1990]

you already have a lady that shoots heal juice at people and a dude that has heal jams what more do you want

By unconventional, I would also include that healing isn't just their primary function (or that healing completely revolves round the idea of being a Support Class).

For example, I always wanted a Tank/Support hybrid, where this character can heal it's allies in exchange for their health, so you need to recharge by damaging/killing your enemies. Alternatively, this character could passively emit damage reduction aura to allies.

A character that is based solely around buffing allies with shields, armor, & passives (and no health healing capabilities) would be much more interesting to play, and alternatively, a Support Hero that can punish a team for trying to overly centralize around a choke point would be a fun mechanic to play around.

 

[Saucycarpdog]

I want a support like Braum in League. Or maybe someone like Thresh. When they rework Roadhog maybe they can give his hook ability to a new hero.