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PoliGAF 2017 |OT4| The leaks are coming from inside the white house

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PBY

Banned
"When you lose to somebody who has 40 percent popularity, you don’t blame other things—Comey, Russia—you blame yourself,” Schumer told The Washington Post. “So what did we do wrong? People didn’t know what we stood for, just that we were against Trump. And still believe that.”

BUT BUT IT WAS RUSSIA.

Lmao, Schumer out here.
 
"When you lose to somebody who has 40 percent popularity, you don’t blame other things—Comey, Russia—you blame yourself,” Schumer told The Washington Post. “So what did we do wrong? People didn’t know what we stood for, just that we were against Trump. And still believe that.”

BUT BUT IT WAS RUSSIA.

Lmao, Schumer out here.

You seem to have a hard time understanding that what Russia did was wrong and a dangerous escalation of cyber even if it had exactly zero effect, which I sincerely doubt.
 
My concern with PR at the state level is that, unless you increase the apportionment by a lot, you have a lot of states with very few seats which kinda messes up proportionality. My preference for obtaining local representation and proportionality in the House would be something like Germany's MMP system, where you cast a vote for a representative in your district and a second for a party, and then additional members are seated from party lists to achieve proportional representation.
 

Necrovex

Member
Single-payer is dead on arrival in the United States at this point. It just isn't happening, and democrats would be foolish to run on it in 2018 because the tax hikes alone would drive people to the polls and could cost them the House takeover.

That's how I feel right now, and why remedying the ACA problems may be the best route (albeit a "boring" one). CO is one of the more progressive states in the nation. If it failed by a landslide there, it doesn't pan well for the rest of the country.
 

Measley

Junior Member
Scarramucci is a chump. Good lord, why would Trump have this clown as his communications director? Is it because he kisses his ass?
 
"When you lose to somebody who has 40 percent popularity, you don’t blame other things—Comey, Russia—you blame yourself,” Schumer told The Washington Post. “So what did we do wrong? People didn’t know what we stood for, just that we were against Trump. And still believe that.”

BUT BUT IT WAS RUSSIA.

Lmao, Schumer out here.

I think we have divergent opinions on what Schumer is saying in that quote. He is not saying that Comey or the Russian interference didn't affect things. He is saying that when you fail, you focus on the things you can personally change first. He is talking about messaging. He is talking about perception.

You might have noticed that the only Democrats who spend much time talking about Russia are the ones on committees that have a responsibility to protect this country from outside attack. That is their jobs and it is what they are going to do. Every other Democrat has been completely focused on policy messaging. Every special election that has happened has also focused on policy. We have to be able to do both. We have to be able to acknowledge that we suffered a completely unprecedented and serious attack and we have to still fight the old fight as well.

If you are going to try to use that strategy to score cheap points on your bizarre ignore Russia campaign, well, I can't stop you. Like I said, I think we are just going to interpret things differently.
 
I think we have divergent opinions on what Schumer is saying in that quote. He is not saying that Comey or the Russian interference didn't affect things. He is saying that when you fail, you focus on the things you can personally change first. He is talking about messaging. He is talking about perception.

You might have noticed that the only Democrats who spend much time talking about Russia are the ones on committees that have a responsibility to protect this country from outside attack. That is their jobs and it is what they are going to do. Every other Democrat has been completely focused on policy messaging. Every special election that has happened has also focused on policy. We have to be able to do both. We have to be able to acknowledge that we suffered a completely unprecedented and serious attack and we have to still fight the old fight as well.

If you are going to try to use that strategy to score cheap points on your bizarre ignore Russia campaign, well, I can't stop you. Like I said, I think we are just going to interpret things differently.

You have to understand, PBY lives in daily fear of Putin's mighty nukes.
 

Loxley

Member
Scarramucci is a chump. Good lord, why would Trump have this clown as his communications director? Is it because he kisses his ass?

Yep. The walls are closing in around Trump, so at this point he's only surrounding himself with unbridled loyalists who will do whatever says, no questions asked.
 

PBY

Banned
I think we have divergent opinions on what Schumer is saying in that quote. He is not saying that Comey or the Russian interference didn't affect things. He is saying that when you fail, you focus on the things you can personally change first. He is talking about messaging. He is talking about perception.

You might have noticed that the only Democrats who spend much time talking about Russia are the ones on committees that have a responsibility to protect this country from outside attack. That is their jobs and it is what they are going to do. Every other Democrat has been completely focused on policy messaging. Every special election that has happened has also focused on policy. We have to be able to do both. We have to be able to acknowledge that we suffered a completely unprecedented and serious attack and we have to still fight the old fight as well.

If you are going to try to use that strategy to score cheap points on your bizarre ignore Russia campaign, well, I can't stop you. Like I said, I think we are just going to interpret things differently.

No, I agree. But I've seen a lot of people lean on Russia as the reason for the loss, instead of trying to analyze what Hillary did. I literally just had this back and forth here yest.

Just nice to see the party leadership get it.
 
"When you lose to somebody who has 40 percent popularity, you don't blame other things—Comey, Russia—you blame yourself," Schumer told The Washington Post. ”So what did we do wrong? People didn't know what we stood for, just that we were against Trump. And still believe that."

BUT BUT IT WAS RUSSIA.

Lmao, Schumer out here.

Do you exist here just to downplay Russia?


No, I agree. But I've seen a lot of people lean on Russia as the reason for the loss, instead of trying to analyze what Hillary did. I literally just had this back and forth here yest.

Just nice to see the party leadership get it.

We talk about both like all the time, you're the one that seems to refuse to even acknowledge that Russia was a reason.
 

PBY

Banned
Do you exist here just to downplay Russia?

How is reposting a Schumer quote downplaying Russia?

I can think Russia poses a threat generally to the USA, without thinking their interference, as opposed to domestic reasons / items within Hillary's camps control, were the reason for the L.
 
How is reposting a Schumer quote downplaying Russia?

I can think Russia poses a threat generally to the USA, without thinking their interference, as opposed to domestic reasons / items within Hillary's camps control, were the reason for the L.

I totally miss Schumer saying But But Russia... that was you.

Russia was a reason.... You seem to want to pretend like it wasn't
 
No, I agree. But I've seen a lot of people lean on Russia as the reason for the loss, instead of trying to analyze what Hillary did. I literally just had this back and forth here yest.

Just nice to see the party leadership get it.

Most people, myself included, are less concerned that Russia was the cause of the last loss than we are with the potential that Russia will be the cause of our next 10 losses. You get that right? The fact that if Russia gets away with this then there is no reason for them not to double down in 2018 and beyond?

Analyzing and fixing what went wrong in 2016 is important and it needs to be done, but if we don't acknowledge the immediate danger to our democracy that Russia poses, it won't fucking matter.
 

PBY

Banned
I totally miss Schumer saying But But Russia... that was you.

Russia was a reason.... You seem to want to pretend like it wasn't

I've never said it wasn't a reason. I've said that it gets outsized importance, relative to her loss.When you lose to the most unpopular presidential candidate in history, its should barely even register in the conversation when discussing how the loss happened / how to address that in the future.
 
How is reposting a Schumer quote downplaying Russia?

I can think Russia poses a threat generally to the USA, without thinking their interference, as opposed to domestic reasons / items within Hillary's camps control, were the reason for the L.

Your own "BUT Russia" comment right after the quote was the downplay. And then you said you agreed with Schumer anyways. So the only reason I see for you to post that was to downplay Russia for some reason.
 
Russia is obviously a huge deal that deserves attention, but Dems really blew it. They should've wiped the floor with Trump enough to overcome the outside influence.
 

Pixieking

Banned
I've never said it wasn't a reason. I've said that it gets outsized importance, relative to her loss.When you lose to the most unpopular presidential candidate in history, its should barely even register in the conversation when discussing how the loss happened / how to address that in the future.

Thing that is often ignored is, how do you (as the party of opposition) talk about how the electorate either got conned, or ate-up the racism, sexism and lies, without anatagonising that portion of the electorate.

The people who voted for Hillary (and even Bernie), you can talk to and about. How do you discuss the Obama-Trump voters, or the GOP-4-Life voters? In a way, the Dems have to kill time til Trump shows his true colours even further.
 
I've never said it wasn't a reason. I've said that it gets outsized importance, relative to her loss.When you lose to the most unpopular presidential candidate in history, its should barely even register in the conversation when discussing how the loss happened / how to address that in the future.

See even when acknowledging it as a reason you basically argue it's not really a reason. I'd give you the benefit of the doubt but literally you go out of your way to act like Russia is not a major issues or concern.
 
I've never said it wasn't a reason. I've said that it gets outsized importance, relative to her loss.When you lose to the most unpopular presidential candidate in history, its should barely even register in the conversation when discussing how the loss happened / how to address that in the future.

Losing to someone so unpopular was completely unprecedented, true. So was Russia's broad and invasive attack on our democracy. I wonder if those two unprecedented things might have some sort of connection?
 

Wilsongt

Member
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...ons-go-back-to-africa/?utm_term=.248ef77f09d2

Um...

Congemi, 60, a Republican long-shot in St. Petersburg’s mayoral race, seized headlines at Tuesday’s forum with his invective, which was laced with Barack Obama references and suggestions about Florida-to-Africa flight plans.

“Mr. Nevel, you and your people talk about reparations,” he said, mentioning Jesse Nevel, a white campaign opponent who heads a group calling for reparations for African Americans. “The reparations that you talk about, Mr. Nevel, your people already got your reparations. Your reparations came in the form of a man named Barack Obama.”

He added: “My advice to you, if you don’t like it here in America, planes leave every hour from Tampa airport. Go back to Africa. Go back to Africa. Go back!”

Post racial America.
 

royalan

Member
Scarramucci is a chump. Good lord, why would Trump have this clown as his communications director? Is it because he kisses his ass?

At this point communications director doesn't matter, because this administration is literally asking someone to turn a turd into a supermodel.

There's no spinning Trump, and to even attempt it is to make a fool of yourself.

I don't know who could successfully do that job at this point.
 
Russia is obviously a huge deal that deserves attention, but Dems really blew it. They should've wiped the floor with Trump enough to overcome the outside influence.

Trump is a dude who.l attacked a gold star family, weathered the pussy-gate and lost all 3 debates handily. Don't think anyone coming from the Dems could "wipe the floor" with him. He tapped into a sentiment of angry racist voters that proved to be ironclad. Not to say he did it expertly or anything, but you can't downplay what he was tapped into.
 
I dont even know what point you're trying to make, You're just trying to make sure people know that Russia was only the #2 or #3 biggest reason the dems lost in 2016, what difference does it make? It's a fucking problem and we need to take steps to make sure it doesnt happen again.
 
At this point communications director doesn't matter, because this administration is literally asking someone to turn a turd into a supermodel.

There's no spinning Trump, and to even attempt it is to make a fool of yourself.

I don't know who could successfully do that job at this point.

John Miller.
 

PBY

Banned
I dont even know what point you're trying to make, You're just trying to make sure people know that Russia was only the #2 or #3 biggest reason the dems lost in 2016, what difference does it make? It's a fucking problem and we need to take steps to make sure it doesnt happen again.

I'm not trying to make a "point" - I actually was just very encouraged by that quote / feel like maybe the party is getting it.
 

Y2Kev

TLG Fan Caretaker Est. 2009
To help with my interpretation please inform as to what "schumer out here" means. Is that good or bad?
 
I'm not trying to make a "point" - I actually was just very encouraged by that quote / feel like maybe the party is getting it.

You say you weren't trying to make a point and then you explicitly spell out the point you were trying to make...

You can see why this is hard to follow, right?
 

Dan

No longer boycotting the Wolfenstein franchise
Scaramucci: "you may not like it, but he's got great judgment on people."

*ahem* Michael Flynn
 
I've said that it gets outsized importance, relative to her loss.

No no no. You aren't getting out of that with this clause. You were constantly saying that Dems should legit stop talking about Russia at all. Not just in relation to the presidential election. I can find the posts.
 

NeoXChaos

Member
My vision for the Senate would be a body of vastly reduced responsibility that would have veto power over laws and presidential appointments (so sort of the opposite of where now they have to *approve* those things, now they would have to have a 2/3rds majority to be able to override other branches of government as a safety valve).

And it would go back to being state-government appointed. A body representing the states rather than the people, such that if 2/3rds of the states object to something even if the House or the President want it, then it does not happen.

Making it state-government based would also let you skip a step in the Amendment process, as an amendment could pass like an impeachment now: majority of the House plus a 2/3rds vote in the Senate.

The House would be proportional representation, but on the state level, allowing for the two Big Tent parties to break off (so instead of Democrats, you'd have Democrats, Labor, an Afro-American party, and a Hispanic party, and instead of Republicans you'd have Republicans, Evangelicals, and White Nationalists, plus an expanded role for Greens and Libertarians, the latter moreso than the former due to stronger appeal out west).

If it ever goes back to that Republicans would control 64 Senate Seats since they control both chambers in 32 states.
 

Dan

No longer boycotting the Wolfenstein franchise

PantherLotus

Professional Schmuck
What if -- get this -- what if the reality of the current situation (the collapse of American democracy and the rise an unchecked authoritarian) is not in fact a singularly describable issue where we have to pick one of: Hillary's incompetence and messaging, Russian interference, Democratic infighting, voter suppression, campaign financing and corruption, gerrymandering, social justice, social justice backlash, Literally All White People, both-sides ism in responsible media, the equally eye-rolling and sinister cynicism of conservative media, and/or depressed voter turnout slash disconnected publics?

Like, maybe talking about one of these doesn't mean all of the others aren't relevant? Crazy, I know. Every time I see one person dismissing Russia because Hillary, dismissing Bernie because voter turnout, dismissing Fox News because both sides-ism, dismissing X because of Y and on and on ... I dunno. Democracy dies with every one of these stupid little arguments.

And none of this bullshit started with either Hillary, or Bernie, or Russia, or Trump.

(i firmly believe if you address any one of the above in whole or in part Hillary is probably president today.)
 

Dan

No longer boycotting the Wolfenstein franchise
Scaramucci having to call Donald Trump Jr a "political neophyte" and implicitly, repeatedly resort to claiming that ignorance is an excuse is hilarious.
 
The outcome of any election is going to be determined by many factors. When the difference between victory and defeat is less than 70K votes in a national election, there are going to be many variables you could change in order to produce a different winner.

So yeah, Clinton's strategic mistakes made the difference in some sense, as did nominating such an unpopular candidate in the first place. But so did Russian interference which played into those unfavorables and kept negative stories about her in the news throughout the campaign.

Obviously it's important to address the strategic issues. But it's not like Schumer is saying anything we haven't talked about here. Most people would agree that the Clinton campaign's messaging was flawed in that it focused so much on being anti-Trump that it came across like she didn't stand for anything, which was not helped by the wonkishness of her policy messaging meaning that there was a lack of big ideas to grab voters. We've also talked about other strategic errors a ton (going all-in on trying to flip suburban voters at the expense of shoring up our vulnerabilities in the Rust Belt). It's important to learn from our mistakes for sure, I just don't know who here is arguing that Clinton's campaign was fine and we don't need to change anything.

At the same time, Russian interference is a real problem that we also need to address. Given their efforts to interfere in European elections, we know that this isn't some one time thing. They're going to continue doing everything they can to undermine our democracy. This is a huge fucking deal and one we have to do something about. So naturally it's something we're going to discuss.

I mean, yeah, Schumer's right in that we can't let Russia be an excuse not to address our weaknesses as a party, but ultimately this is talk about messaging and campaign strategy and the like. The point isn't to stop talking about Russia, just that, in the context of campaigns and winning elections, there are other things we need to talk about.
 

Ogodei

Member
If it ever goes back to that Republicans would control 64 Senate Seats since they control both chambers in 32 states.

Which would be fine. They'd need 67 to be able to do anything. Also the 6-year term would stay so that just because a party runs a state at the moment doesn't mean they'd have both senators for a state (or even any, depending on the timing).

And this would accompany a constitutional-mandated shift to proportional representation for state legislatures too, so they'd be much less unbalanced than they are right now
 

Plinko

Wildcard berths that can't beat teams without a winning record should have homefield advantage
So what changed in the last 48 hours that is making the GOP force a vote on health care on Tuesday? I'm confused here. This thing was dead last week. Did that depressing democratic voter turnout report play a role here? I've been out of the loop and am genuinely seeking what the issue is.
 

Valhelm

contribute something
Yep. Sanders kick started this talk and didn't shy away from his principles during the elections.

Bernie's legacy is going to be -- at the very least -- single payer. Wouldn't be too surprised if his obituaries call him the father of modern American healthcare.
 

royalan

Member
What if -- get this -- what if the reality of the current situation (the collapse of American democracy and the rise an unchecked authoritarian) is not in fact a singularly describable issue where we have to pick one of: Hillary's incompetence and messaging, Russian interference, Democratic infighting, voter suppression, campaign financing and corruption, gerrymandering, social justice, social justice backlash, Literally All White People, both-sides ism in responsible media, the equally eye-rolling and sinister cynicism of conservative media, and/or depressed voter turnout slash disconnected publics?

Like, maybe talking about one of these doesn't mean all of the others aren't relevant? Crazy, I know. Every time I see one person dismissing Russia because Hillary, dismissing Bernie because voter turnout, dismissing Fox News because both sides-ism, dismissing X because of Y and on and on ... I dunno. Democracy dies with every one of these stupid little arguments.

And none of this bullshit started with either Hillary, or Bernie, or Russia, or Trump.

(i firmly believe if you address any one of the above in whole or in part Hillary is probably president today.)

I agree with all of this.

Although I find myself focusing less and less on Hillary and the flaws of her campaign over things like Russia and the many heads of voter suppression because Hillary is not going to be on the ballot in 18/20.

But we're going to have to deal with v.2 (now with less bugs!) of all those other factors that contributed to her loss.

Bernie's legacy is going to be -- at the very least -- single payer. Wouldn't be too surprised if his obituaries call him the father of modern American healthcare.

Yeah no.

That will go to Obama. It is because of Obamacare that we were even put on the path that Americans now actually believe that healthcare should be a right.
 
So what changed in the last 48 hours that is making the GOP force a vote on health care on Tuesday? I'm confused here. This thing was dead last week. Did that depressing democratic voter turnout report play a role here? I've been out of the loop and am genuinely seeking what the issue is.

They can't even pass the bill with 50 votes anymore, they're not voting on anything Tuesday. The only thing that changed in the last 48 hours was the parliamentary ruling like 75% of the bill doesn't qualify for reconciliation.
 
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