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Several Amazon devices potentially found on FCC website (4K FireTV etc)

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You won't actually get the full throughput even under ideal conditions, 100Mbps is just the max. It's also typically dependent on the whole of the network as most switches and routers will force the whole network to downgrade in the presence of a 100BaseT device but also share bandwidth among the devices.

I have gigabit service available to me and it will become much more common. This gives opportunities to increase bitrate or run more simultaneous streams through the network. It would be unfortunate to be throttled by cheap network adaptor. In the end, this has been the standard on PC networking for many years, so it should be made available.

It's going to take a long time before gigabit service is widespread in the US. There's what, only 5 locations from Google? Who else is offering gigabit?

Even ignoring ISPs offering gigabit service, who is offering streams that is going to require someone to have beyond a 100Mbps connection? Nobody. Certainly not now, and unlikely in the next 5 years. There's nothing that a gigabit connection on a Fire TV2 is going to get you now or anytime in the near future. There will likely be a FTV4, not a typo, before we have a need for a gigabit connection on a streaming device.

What is this gigabit connection going to be used for that a 100mbit connection won't be good enough for? Certainly not 4K streaming videos.
 

Somnid

Member
It's going to take a long time before gigabit service is widespread in the US. There's what, only 5 locations from Google? Who else is offering gigabit?

Even ignoring ISPs offering gigabit service, who is offering streams that is going to require someone to have beyond a 100Mbps connection? Nobody. Certainly not now, and unlikely in the next 5 years. There's nothing that a gigabit connection on a Fire TV2 is going to get you now or anytime in the near future. There will likely be a FTV4, not a typo, before we have a need for a gigabit connection on a streaming device.

What is this gigabit connection going to be used for that a 100mbit connection won't be good enough for? Certainly not 4K streaming videos.

Gigabit isn't just through Google. Mine is municipal though it's spooked Xfinity and CenturyLink to also offer it. They offer it in several major cities though it's usually really expensive. Like I said, unless you have very expensive networking equipment in most networks the entire network is using that 100Mbs not just the one device.

It's like removable batteries and SD cards. I care less that you save a few pennies and more that I have it, whether I use it or not, and maybe I'll still have the device in 5 years or maybe I'm one of the lucky few that gets to use the high-end features right away. It's not like adding a 4K screen to a phone, it's a pretty reasonable request.
 

this_guy

Member
I doubt Vudu will come since Amazon wants you to buy movies from them. There was rumors they might join UV though.

Yeah if they join UV then I wouldn't need Vudu. Those rumors of them joining UV were over a year ago but nothing came from it.
 
Gigabit isn't just through Google. Mine is municipal though it's spooked Xfinity and CenturyLink to also offer it. They offer it in several major cities though it's usually really expensive. Like I said, unless you have very expensive networking equipment in most networks the entire network is using that 100Mbs not just the one device.

It's like removable batteries and SD cards. I care less that you save a few pennies and more that I have it, whether I use it or not, and maybe I'll still have the device in 5 years or maybe I'm one of the lucky few that gets to use the high-end features right away. It's not like adding a 4K screen to a phone, it's a pretty reasonable request.

I don't think it's reasonable because nothing is going to use it. You might as well complain that the FTV2 doesn't support 8K video too. Plus, the entire network isn't peaking at 100Mbps if you have at least a gigabit network, but that's not really relevant to the end client. The end client, in this case the FTV2 still doesn't need anything faster than 100Mbps.
 

Raistlin

Post Count: 9999
You won't actually get the full throughput even under ideal conditions, 100Mbps is just the max.
To start, I just want to make sure we're clear on what's being discussed in terms of overall setup. The assumption I'm making is you have a gigabit network. At some location there is a gigabit switch going to devices, with in all likelihood a relatively short run to the 100Base-T device in question.

I cited UHD BluRay as an extreme bandwidth corner case, but let me explain why it's not particularly realistic at this point:

1) It's expected to have a soft launch this year - if even that. No release dates for players have been confirmed to my knowledge. Sprint next year is looking more realistic.

2) At what point after launch does it even get cracked? Until then, there will be no rips. Sure it could be soon, but it could also take a while. It's completely unknown what timeframe is realistic for ripped UHD BDs.

3) I doubled checked the bitrates for UHD BD, and actually the larger sizes supposedly do have higher max bitrates, actually exceeding 100Mbs. However you have to remember those are peak bitrates, not nominal. The discs aren't large enough to maintain those bitrates, though admittedly you could have break up during peaks. However ...

4) No one is expecting uptake to be large, at least not immediately for UHD BD. So of those people who have it ... how many will want to actually rip them once a crack occurs? Now of those people, how many will actually want 1:1 rips? Most people don't even do that for normal BD's ... they typically use something like MakeMKV, Handbrake, etc to reduce the size somewhat. Now think of UHD BD? Of the few people that will potentially be ripping them in the next few years, who isn't going to reduce the bitrates?



So really the above is the absolute top-end corner case, and isn't even particularly realistic in the real world. The amount of people that this would likely impact, at least within the next few years, must be vanishingly small. And that's even assuming it gets cracked in that period.

The real world bitrates people will be seeing, even for UHD content, should have no problem in a Gigabit network where the playback device is capped at 100Mb. Realistically we're talking about bitrates in the 30's-40's. Nowhere near the 100Base-T peak, and easily in its nominal bandwidth.


It's also typically dependent on the whole of the network as most switches and routers will force the whole network to downgrade in the presence of a 100BaseT device but also share bandwidth among the devices.
And now I see where the problem is. That is not the case.

I can only assume people are confusing WiFi with Ethernet if this is the conventional wisdom. The reason a WiFi router drops things to the lowest common denominator is a physical hardware limitation with the radio. For consumer routers, a given radio can only tune to a limited spectrum. So when an 11g/b device starts using that radio, all devices connected to it have to switch to the degraded mode.

For example, this is why if you have a concurrent dual band 11n router it's recommended you connect all of your 11n clients to the 5Ghz band if they support it. That band is only supported by 11n devices. Since only the 2.4GHz band radio can be degraded by having 11g/b devices connect to it, you'll maintain your good speeds on your 11n clients.



In the case of a Gigabit switch though, only the specific port connected to a 100Base-T device drops in bandwidth. It is not analogous to how the radios function in a WiFi system at all. All other ports continue to have access to the gigabit bandwidth pool. With that in mind it should now be clear why Gigabit is irrelevant in a device like this. It doesn't impact other devices on your network, you aren't generally copying files to and from it, and the bitrates of even UHD content that would be streamed to it will be within the real-world nominal bandwidth of the connection.
 

Somnid

Member
In the case of a Gigabit switch, only the specific port connected to a 100Base-T device drops in bandwidth. All other ports continue to have access to the gigabit bandwidth pool. It's not at all the same as what happens with WiFi radios.

That's actually device specific.
 

Raistlin

Post Count: 9999
That's actually device specific.
To my knowledge that is simply not the case.

I suspect you are thinking about hubs, not switches. A standard hub will in fact drop to the lowest common denominator, unless you have what is known as a dual-speed hub which avoids that. Note however, there are no consumer-level Gigabit hubs. Only 10Base-T and 100Base-T ('Fast Ethernet') hubs were released for the consumer market.

By the time Gigabit Ethernet became a commercial product, the industry had moved to only producing switches.
 

plainr_

Member
I trust you guys on this. But are there benefits to having a gigabit connection on the new FTV? Maybe faster FF/RW and shorter load times?
 

giga

Member
Disappointed the stick is the same old hardware and mostly the same os, outside of alexa with the new remote. And still no voice for Netflix? Come on.
 
Interesting, it says the Fire TV supports Dolby Atmos audio output.

Edit: Wait, does this mean the Fire TV can now pass on a Dolby True HD stream?
 

Raistlin

Post Count: 9999
Interesting, it says the Fire TV supports Dolby Atmos audio output.
Not sure if any others have hopped on board, but Vudu and Amazon have pledged support for Atmos streaming ... though to my knowledge titles and dates haven't been announced. With that in mind, it makes sense.



From a hardware perspective though, this is more marketing than anything. Using Dolby Media Producer, engineers can add an Atmos substream to both True HD encodes and Dolby Digital Plus. Logically streaming providers will be using Dolby Digital Plus for any Atmos encodes (a la ATSC 3.0 broadcasts) due to bandwidth constraints.

Point being, any device the supports bitstreaming of Dolby Digital Plus should already be able to pass the Atmos subchannel ... so not only does that mean current Fire TV's, but also Roku, etc.



As an aside, I would suspect Netflix will get on board at some point. They've already moved to Dolby Digital Plus, so no reason to not encode Atmos titles if the mix is already available.
 
Not sure if any others have hopped on board, but Vudu and Amazon have pledged support for Atmos streaming ... though to my knowledge titles and dates haven't been announced. With that in mind, it makes sense.



From a hardware perspective though, this is more marketing than anything. Using Dolby Media Producer, engineers can add an Atmos substream to both True HD encodes and Dolby Digital Plus. Logically streaming providers will be using Dolby Digital Plus for any Atmos encodes (a la ATSC 3.0 broadcasts) due to bandwidth constraints.

Point being, any device the supports bitstreaming of Dolby Digital Plus should already be able to pass the Atmos subchannel ... so not only does that mean current Fire TV's, but also Roku, etc.

As an aside, I would suspect Netflix will get on board at some point. They've already moved to Dolby Digital Plus, so not reason to not encode Atmos titles if the mix is already available.

Ah interesting. I didn't realize Atmos was purely a channel mix format that could be applied to Dolby Digital Plus. I always assumed it was an extension of Dolby True HD with more channels.
 

Raistlin

Post Count: 9999
Edit: Wait, does this mean the Fire TV can now pass on a Dolby True HD stream?
I doubt it. Would be nice though.

Interestingly the Qualcomm chip used in the current Fire TV already supports Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD, however its usage is disabled to avoid licensing fees. I assume Amazon sees the Fire TV as primarily a streaming device, and looks at stuff like Plex as a second citizen. Since none of the streaming services support lossless codecs, no reason to bother licensing it in their eyes.

What I really wish they did is offer and unlock 'app' that covers the price of licensing. That way if it's enabled, any apps that can utilize it (Kodi, Plex, etc) would be able to bitstream.
 

Raistlin

Post Count: 9999
Ah interesting. I didn't realize Atmos was purely a channel mix format that could be applied to Dolby Digital Plus. I always assumed it was an extension of Dolby True HD with more channels.

I'm not super familiar with the details, but my understanding is Dolby Atmos in theaters is fully real time. The 'soundtrack' literally has all of the object data included in it (that means high bitrate and ton of storage required), and the renderer then encodes the sounds based entirely on the speaker configuration.

For home however, I believe the content is 'compressed' down to a spatially-encoded channel in order to limit space, bandwidth, and rendering process requirements. The renderer still takes into account your specific speaker configuration, but this is why there is a lower maximum number of speakers it can support in home, and why a limited set of speaker locations can be used. It doesn't have the full object mix.



I'm not quire sure how DTS X works, though I would assume the home version is similar? Though I do know it supports a higher maximum number of channels and more speaker locations.
 

sangreal

Member
got my new firetv in today. Runs way better than my firetv stick did on fireos5. It took forever to get it to pair with my remote so I could start it up, but otherwise no problems. Some random thoughts having only messed around with it briefly

-- way smaller than I expected. Looks very sleak
-- it can actually handle my library in its original quality over wireless, unlike my old stick
-- alexa on the firetv does not actually work in concert with an amazon echo. I can't, for example, tell it to turn off my lights

I don't have a 4k tv so couldn't try that out

I also have a new chromecast which is quite an improvement over the old chromecast, but I prefer having a remote
 

Ashhong

Member
Question for you guys, sorry this is the best thread I could find for it:

Can I "cast" a website to Fire Stick? For example, DailyMotion I believe now supports casting a video to Chromecast. By default would this also work with the Fire Stick or does it need to specifically be coded for Fire Stick as well?
 

Somnid

Member
Question for you guys, sorry this is the best thread I could find for it:

Can I "cast" a website to Fire Stick? For example, DailyMotion I believe now supports casting a video to Chromecast. By default would this also work with the Fire Stick or does it need to specifically be coded for Fire Stick as well?

Amazon supports something called "Fling" which is built on top of Google's cast protocol (basically a competitor). I believe there is at least some minor modification devs need to make if they support Chromecast. Otherwise you need to download an app that supports it, it's not native.
 

Ashhong

Member
Amazon supports something called "Fling" which is built on top of Google's cast protocol (basically a competitor). I believe there is at least some minor modification devs need to make if they support Chromecast. Otherwise you need to download an app that supports it, it's not native.

So it sounds like Chromecast is the better choice for more options. I wanted the fire stick to be able to have kodi on it, but need the convenience of casting websites that don't have apps
 

Nabs

Member
So it sounds like Chromecast is the better choice for more options. I wanted the fire stick to be able to have kodi on it, but need the convenience of casting websites that don't have apps

The Nexus Player is basically 50 bucks everywhere (and even cheaper at certain Targets). It has full casting, and it's an even better Kodi box.
 

Somnid

Member
So it sounds like Chromecast is the better choice for more options. I wanted the fire stick to be able to have kodi on it, but need the convenience of casting websites that don't have apps

You don't need the specific app, just an app that works with Google Cast streams. I think Allcast can do it but look around, there's a bunch of them.
 

Ashhong

Member
The Nexus Player is basically 50 bucks everywhere (and even cheaper at certain Targets). It has full casting, and it's an even better Kodi box.

Hm..I'll have to think about that. I like the fact that the stick is just hiding behind the TV, plus it's half the cost of the Nexus. I believe I could also run Kodi on my PC and just cast that to a Chromecast correct?

You don't need the specific app, just an app that works with Google Cast streams. I think Allcast can do it but look around, there's a bunch of them.

I'm not sure I get what you mean. I was talking about streaming Chrome tabs and certain embedded video that support the "Cast" icon. Isn't allcast for streaming files and such?
 

Nabs

Member

That got pulled off the store last month. Google wasn't having it. I almost picked it up for 7-8 bucks, so glad I didn't.

What makes it a better Kodi box?

Off the strength of Kodi being in the Play Store alone. It's also got a better processor than the Stick, so it's a smoother experience. And depending on the User, Android M could be a big deal (Mpeg2 decoding, auto-refresh rate switching).
 

Somnid

Member
Whoa, that kind of thing would be perfect. I'll have to see if there are any others still out there. If apps are just sideloaded then does it matter if Google doesn't allow it?

Didn't even realize they delisted it, surprising that Amazon would even care unless it broke some legal terms. I imagine if you can find a way to get it, it will still work.
 

Van Owen

Banned
Soooo, looks like the Fire TV Stick was delayed because Fire OS 5 is a buggy mess. Amazon is giving people a $10 credit though.
 
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