flashman92
Neo Member
This will inevitably sell more than Mania and that makes me sad
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Sonic Forces - Casino Forest gameplay
- Thread starter Not75Drops
- Start date
DeathbyCheerios
Member
I wanted to be excited but the more that comes out makes me realize. SEGA HAS NO IDEA HOW TO MAKE SONIC GAMES ANYMORE.
The fact that Mania is so good in comparison proves that.
The fact that Mania is so good in comparison proves that.
Davey Cakes
Member
Keep in mind, some of Sega's people were involved with Sonic Mania. It wasn't merely a team of fangame devs.
The key is the direction, and I think Mania having a clearly-defined goal really helped. It bucked the trend of Sonic games not really knowing what they wanted to be, where Forces clearly has an identity crisis.
DeathbyCheerios
Member
Yeah but the people in charge of Mania were fans who knew what made a Sonic game good. The people at Sega don't know that.
To Far Away Times
Member
This looks completely awful.
lol
LightningXCE
Member
Yeah, Lost World was actually really gorgeous, and performed amazingly well. But it had rings that were dropped when you got hit, and it ran at a constant 60FPS
And it looks arguably better than this game is, with it running on the Wii U, so it makes it even more puzzling. Making your art style and gameplay stand out involves working within limitations, not purposefully removing them or just...not caring as long as it "fits".
Yeah, Generations was OK at the time because at least it felt better than 4, but damn this looks like a giant regression.
Supaidaman
Member
From the Sonic Team/STI of 3 of old, probably only Iizuka and Senoue are still there.
I wouldn't be so sure of that.
TyrantGuardian
Member
I'm sorry but comparing how floaty as fuck those movement physics look compared to Mania or really any good platformer just makes me laugh. Zero interest in this game.
Having something good to compare it to changes a lot. Classic in Generations is fine for what it is, but now that we have an actual Classic title in the collective memory, they can't really pull the same trick twice.
Plus level design actually seems to have regressed. Classic in Generations at least had multiple interesting routes to explore, the two levels we've seen seem to be flat.
Arc Christelle
Member
3D World. (I love 3D World, but it's filled with Boost Pads. Still the best 3D Mario tho.)
It looks bad if you're the type of person who would expect a sequel or new entry of a game to surpass/be better than the last.
Barely looks better than the best Modern 3D Sonic entry?
Its only 20 bucks more (less with discounts) and has an OC creator.
I feel like most of its sales will be younger players wanting to make OC.
PeakPointMatrix
Member
Why? Historically 3D Sonic had been a multi-million seller above most modern 2D entries, and has a wider fan-reach than the nostalgic that only buy "classic" games. The percentage of gamers that look at 3D Sonic with disdain (as seen in this thread) is an irrelevant fraction of the fanbase, and even then there is a cross-section of buyers that have purchased Mania and and will purchase Forces as well.
I'm almost certian that Forces will sales bettter.
Short term at any rate. Depending on how bad force ends up being, Mania could be able to grow bigger over time.
Diablohead
Member
The original hedgehog engine looked so good in places, the generations game remove a lot of what made unleashed look so lush and pretty from it's lighting and shaders. I think there was some mods to bring over the unleashed shaders to pc but not sure how far that went.
I've accepted that too unfortunately.
No. Check out Generations: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=asBqG6YL5cc
Not a single boostpad in Green Hill. Boostpads throughout Classic Sonic's levels are used sparingly for uphill sections where they make sense. If there's downhill the game relies on Sonic to get the speed from running. If there's a loop you can get the speed from running or spindashing.
Conversely, here's how Forces does things:
If there's a loop, there's a boostpad. If there's a downward slope, there's a boostpad. If there's a ramp there's a boostpad. Absolutely no reliance on Sonic to get the speed on his own because apparently he can't since they even need boostpads to get him up to speed when going down a hill and he slows back down once the boost wears off.
We got a boostpad inside the end of the S tunnel and a boostpad on the ramp after a vertical ramp. If players mess up the sequence they should be able to get around the loop with a spindash. Getting to the higher path from the ramp should be a reward for going fast, and failing should lead to a lower path, not a death pit. Or maybe jumping over the ramp instead of following it up leads to a faster lower path. The use of boostpads in this game is putting band aids on bad physics and level design.
Here's Lost World:
In 2D levels every loop has a boostpad before it.
I did some research and found the Lead Game Designer of Generations was Yoshinobu Uba. This was the guy in charge of level design and gameplay. Was also lead level designer on Unleash's daytime stages. On Lost World he was "System Designer" instead, while game design was handled by Jyunpei Ootsu and Takayuki Okada. Jyunpei Ootsu was a game designer on Secret Rings and Black Knight; Takayuki Okada has game designer/level designer credits for Secret Rings, Unleashed Daytime, and Generations. Based on what I've seen I don't think Uba is Lead Game Designer on this project.
PeakPointMatrix
Member
This is why we barely ever get 60fps games. People are out for blood when the visuals aren't as good as they expect them to be.
Arc Christelle
Member
I don't think it's the worst thing ever, but the level designs and spectacle is reaching Knack levels of boring.
Bubba_Sparks
Member
Why is Sega's Sonic team still employed? They were outdone by a bunch of fans turned professionals! Seriously, the Sonic games over the past decade and a half have been almost resoundingly trash!
LinkSlayer64
Member
Yeah you're right, I got misinformed in the past and I actually played generations yesterday. I was going to edit it but ended up getting distracted and forgetting.
While I really have nothing against boost pads for 3D sonic, or 2D sections of 3D sonic because 3D sonic implements the boost mechanic, classic sonic should retain classic sonic gameplay.
I'm pretty sure Taxman has chastised people like you in the past because the amount of involvement Sega had with Sonic Mania, which he was not legally allowed to discuss.
Wonder Peter
Member
What a train wreck. Even Sonic Stadium can't recommend the game:
https://www.sonicstadium.org/2017/09/sonic-forces-egx-2017-hands-on-impressions/
It sounds absolutely terrible.
https://www.sonicstadium.org/2017/09/sonic-forces-egx-2017-hands-on-impressions/
It sounds absolutely terrible.
Arc Christelle
Member
Find someone who can make a 3D Sonic Game that has the intensity of Unleashed/Platinum Games, with the level design of Generations and I'll consider listening.
GabeTheGrouch76
Member
Sonic 3&K was developed at STI, but the development staff was still the original Sonic Team. Sonic 2 was the only game that had STI staff on the project, and that was still co-developed with Sonic Team staff.
As for staff from the heydey....yeah, it's only Iizuka and maybe one or two other staff members. The key people who helped shape the games into what they were like Yasuhara (director and lead designer), Naka (programmer), and Ohshima (artist) are all gone though.
SoulUnison
Banned
I refuse to believe this has been in "continuous, uninterrupted" development anywhere near as long as Sega claims.
I theorize the original intention of Forces was to "all the different versions of Sonic team up," which is why the Custom Avatar is a "tech hero" with a "grappling beam." That was most likely supposed to be Sonic Boom Sonic and his EnerBeam, but that was dropped, likely because Boom!Sonic has an abysmal track record of game quality. Also note how closely the Custom Avatar and NPCs art style skews towards secondary/original/background character from Boom and it's TV show.
So then Classic Sonic is still present, because he was there from the reveal and the Mania tie-in and they can't feasibly write him out, but even from pre-release materials he seems bizarrely divorced from the other characters and the storyline in general.
I think the game got basically rebooted in development and Classic Sonic is a weird appendix that's just padding out the game because "we said he'd be here so he has to be." If "Generations" theme was "time," then "Forces" theme was likely "dimensions," attributing to how they're retconning Classic Sonic from "younger Sonic" to "Sonic from another dimension."
This is basically the Sonic series' Versus XIII -> XV.
Azure Dream
Member
This isn't about technical visuals (but again, there's a whole generation of hardware separating these games). It's about poor art direction, lack of anything interesting going on, and apparently some really awful physics. Which they've had years to get right, but instead just seem to be getting worse.
PeakPointMatrix
Member
lol come on man. Yeah I mean if you were staring at the ground with nothing happening maybe it peaked over 30fps. But Unleashed while having stellar art direction and visuals was notorious for existing in the sub-20 fps zone.
Have you actually played Knack 2? One of my favorite 3D platformers of the year, not to mention the highly improved combat. Also functions at a rock-solid 60fps, but no one gives a shit. Yet these same people flood a Ratchet and Clank or Crash Remake thread ready to castrate the games for deciding to lock performance at 30fps, when there are other perfectly functional platformers offering just that and ignoring them.
Sorry but the Knack dismissal simply doesn't work anymore, Knack 2 is great. I'd be elated if Sonic Forces is as good as Knack 2.
lol
Just gotta go faster I guess.
The problem with them is how they're used. In this game they're being used to remove any semblance of speed-based challenge and to get Sonic to go faster in places where he shouldn't need boostpads. It's bad level design and gameplay all the way. What's the point of loops if every loop has a boostpad in front of it? In the old games loops were a way of challenging players, gating progression, and a way to build speed. With boostpad in front of every one and Sonic slowing back down after the boost wears off at a pretty slow speed cap they're just glorified cutscenes.
IronicSonic
Member
No. Check out Generations: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=asBqG6YL5cc
Not a single boostpad in Green Hill. Boostpads throughout Classic Sonic's levels are used sparingly for uphill sections where they make sense. If there's downhill the game relies on Sonic to get the speed from running. If there's a loop you can get the speed from running or spindashing.
Conversely, here's how Forces does things:
If there's a loop, there's a boostpad. If there's a downward slope, there's a boostpad. If there's a ramp there's a boostpad. Absolutely no reliance on Sonic to get the speed on his own because apparently he can't since they even need boostpads to get him up to speed when going down a hill and he slows back down once the boost wears off.
We got a boostpad inside the end of the S tunnel and a boostpad on the ramp after a vertical ramp. If players mess up the sequence they should be able to get around the loop with a spindash. Getting to the higher path from the ramp should be a reward for going fast, and failing should lead to a lower path, not a death pit. Or maybe jumping over the ramp instead of following it up leads to a faster lower path. The use of boostpads in this game is putting band aids on bad physics and level design.
Here's Lost World:
In 2D levels every loop has a boostpad before it.
I did some research and found the Lead Game Designer of Generations was Yoshinobu Uba. This was the guy in charge of level design and gameplay. Was also lead level designer on Unleash's daytime stages. On Lost World he was "System Designer" instead, while game design was handled by Jyunpei Ootsu and Takayuki Okada. Jyunpei Ootsu was a game designer on Secret Rings and Black Knight; Takayuki Okada has game designer/level designer credits for Secret Rings, Unleashed Daytime, and Generations. Based on what I've seen I don't think Uba is Lead Game Designer on this project.
Very insightful thanks
Sheesh. I used to read TSS years ago even before finding this forum and if they have bad impressions of it then it's a wrap.
PeakPointMatrix
Member
The level theme looks fine to me. A Casino overrun by ruins and plantlife is a pretty fresh level theme in my eyes. I do agree the art direction isn't the franchise's strongest, but it's not some hideous eyesore like some make it out to be.
In addressing "nothing interesting going on" someone else mentioned that this stage is taking inspiration from previous classic Casino stages where there aren't enemies and only springs to bounce you around. I'm not offended by springs that are clipping through geometry or whatever because honestly who gives a fuck, while yeah sloppy, you see it for s half second anyway, not to mention the classics had them too.
This seriously just looks like Generations 2 to me so far with an emphasis on the holy grail of platforming that so many gameplay militants love to complain about the lack of too often on on here; actual real 60fps gameplay.
Who would have thought that a budget Generations 2 with responsive 60fps platforming would dissapoint so many?
LinkSlayer64
Member
It's a set of ruins being converted into a casino.
60FPS a good game does not make, those physics are screwed.
I think the theme is more Eggman turning ancient ruins into a casino. The ruins look like they're based on Ankor Wat and that fits the theme of Eggman taking over and ruining stuff with technology.
Arc Christelle
Member
I didn't play Knack 2, that's why I referenced "Knack".
This physically hurts to look at. The way he comes to that complete stop is everything I hate about the feel of modern Sonic games.
lol
I think Mania is a special case.
I doubt we'll ever get the numbers but I think there's a good chance Mania sells more units overall.
PeakPointMatrix
Member
Well do yourself a favor and play it as soon as you can.
Arc Christelle
Member
I'd argue that the issue here is just that it literally looks like 2 themes that are clashing because the dev team didn't bother designing enough assets to make them mesh. All these lights and it still looks dark af.
Sonic 4 ep. 1 Casino Street is lit in comparison.
No.
Ristifer
Member
The thing is, it's not Generations 2. Generations was meant as a celebration of both Classic and Modern Sonic stages. The whole thing was based on remaking several different zones from Sonic's past.
Forces is trying to forge ahead with original levels, and yet, nothing about them looks innovative or even interesting. And this is six years after the release of Generations. I mean, people complained about Classic Planet Wisp in Generations, but at least you had to go left for a while and platform a good amount. Casino Forest is literally Casino Night with a different background, less vibrant colours, worse platforming, worse physics, and barely any imagination.
I'm not trying to prove you wrong or anything. If it looks fun to you, then that's good. But this simply doesn't pass for me just because it somewhat resembles a Generations-type game. It just feels like they could've done so much more with this. Maybe there's still plenty of Forces to showcase and I could be off-base. As of right now though, they're not wowing me with what they're showing. It's falling flat.
James Scott
Banned
Nah, Knack 2 is still mediocre even if better than the first.
Its basically sonic Unleashed werehog stages if they werent a technical mess but with the art design of Vexx or some other mediocre PS2 platformer
Friend of Sonic
Member
RIP Sonic Team
How interesting would it be if they did Mania style stages for Classic Sonic, even in art style and had the Modern Sonic stages be whatever the hell you call what Sonic Team is doing? It'd really drive home the point of "Classic Sonic"
Chaos Sphoenix
Neo Member
Based on what we've seen so far, classic Sonic stages are sabotaging the game, to say the least. They should be entirely removed. Just keep the boss battles.
Sonic Team is on a verge of be publicly shamed presenting this bizarre physics after what a bunch of fans did in Mania.
Sonic Team is on a verge of be publicly shamed presenting this bizarre physics after what a bunch of fans did in Mania.
katsubento
Member
Looks okay. I'll give it a shot. The $39 price point helps as well.
It looks more like the whole game is sabotaging itself. Everything involving the avatar looks awful and what little we've seen of modern looks inferior to generations as well.
Indeed. My hope is SEGA looks at return on investment though, especially as a percentage, rather than pure profit. Which would show more Mania games would be a far less risky investment.
Mania would have cost like 1/10th that of Forces. Possibly less.
GabeTheGrouch76
Member
He's not necessarily wrong. Irregardless of it being a 3D or 2D game, Mania clearly has more craftsmanship poured into its game design compared to what has been showcased with Forces. Taxman and his crew didn't have any doubts about the game they wanted to make and they understood how they would put it together. Forces looks like a hot mess of conflicting ideas all trying to get their due in the spotlight at the same time. That game's priorities on what product it wants to be are all over the place. It is especially damning given Mania was made on a fraction of the time, staff, and general budget/resources compared to what Sonic Team had on hand to make this game.
I don't think Sonic Team should be fired but Sega should really hand the keys to Sonic over to another studio/division. Forces gives off the impression this is a game that nobody on the development team is remotely passionate about, and desperately wishes they were working on something else entirely.