Bobby Roberts
Banned
I was wondering when that article was gonna get linked.
It's a good one, as Seitz's almost always are.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Sopranos ending.
- Thread starter TheOnlyOneHeEverFeared
- Start date
I was wondering when that article was gonna get linked.
It's a good one, as Seitz's almost always are.
I think the guy in the members only jacket being the only guy in the scene to get a nonstatic shot when he goes to the bathroom was pretty deliberate in what it was implying but I guess David Chase said otherwise? I wish he just never said shit :/
But the most important part is that Jersey won, baby. 'Say bye bye to grandpa!'
But the most important part is that Jersey won, baby. 'Say bye bye to grandpa!'
Gaius Cassius
Member
Amazing show, but I didn't care for the finale. Then again, I didn't care for the Deadwood finale a little after that either.
The creator mentioned he lived, so I don't doubt that. I just assumed he got the Gotti fate, got paranoid and eventually ended up going to and dying in prison.
Speaking of Deadwood, I wonder how the fuck a tv movie that gives a more satisfying conclusion will work today. Powers Boothe is dead, and the rest of the actors are noticeably older. Time jump would not match their actual real counterparts in some cases.
The creator mentioned he lived, so I don't doubt that. I just assumed he got the Gotti fate, got paranoid and eventually ended up going to and dying in prison.
Speaking of Deadwood, I wonder how the fuck a tv movie that gives a more satisfying conclusion will work today. Powers Boothe is dead, and the rest of the actors are noticeably older. Time jump would not match their actual real counterparts in some cases.
Yup, this. People have nitpicked that scene for years to feed their personal theory of what does or doesn't happy to Tony and his family in the moments that follow -- but the simple fact is that what happens after the camera cuts out is impossible to tell, and largely irrelevant.
Ultimately, this is the life Tony has created for himself. That even in the smallest, simplest moments he can never truly be at peace, because his reckoning could come in any form and at any turn. There will always be that tension and anxiety hanging over him. That's his curse, the thing he'll never be able to maneuver, lie or manipulate his way out of.
Your uncle was a fictional character?
To those that have been presented with all the evidence and still say it's "ambiguous", that we can never know, etc...
Chase initially said If you look at the final episode really carefully, its all there. in response to questions about whether or not Tony is dead. Since then he's admitted to being dismayed by the reaction and he's deliberately spoken in more uncertain terms. More philosophically. But his initial words still ring true. It's all there.
I actually just came across this article that adds more to what I'm saying and is a bit harsher with Chase.
Chase initially said If you look at the final episode really carefully, its all there. in response to questions about whether or not Tony is dead. Since then he's admitted to being dismayed by the reaction and he's deliberately spoken in more uncertain terms. More philosophically. But his initial words still ring true. It's all there.
I actually just came across this article that adds more to what I'm saying and is a bit harsher with Chase.
You can throw around scare quotes all you want but it doesn't change the fact that in the text, Tony doesn't die. This fixation on authorial intent is also bothersome... what Chase has to say on his work after release is just another interpretation.
Don't be so hyperbolic. That was one use of quotes because it's the word being used. And there is no fixation. It's simply me providing Chase's own interpretation the day after the finale aired, while taking into account the actual construction of Tony's final moments. I agree with Chase. You don't have to.
As said before
I choose to conclude 25. Fine if you don't.
DragoonKain
Neighbours from Hell
Here's what I took away from the final scenes, which I never hear anyone bring up.
Tony orders onion rings and he says something like "best onion rings in Jersey" and they are the most rinky dink onion rings I've ever seen.
Tony orders onion rings and he says something like "best onion rings in Jersey" and they are the most rinky dink onion rings I've ever seen.
Ironically Chase got exactly what he wanted in terms of authorial intent: ambiguity.
The ending is designed to preclude a definite view. Sure it's shot as though Tony gets whacked - all the clues are indeed there as Chase noted and shot by shot deconstruction show - but by deliberately withholding the conclusion - for example the final shot of Tony looking up could have shown a gun approaching his Temple then cut to the black POV - Chase also got his "it doesn't matter" ending too because it could have all been a false alarm. This time. But eventually it won't be. And his life is what it is and can't be redeemed.
As a result viewers were left uncertain and actually experience a sense of Tony's life: a constant expectation "this might be it" that will never knowingly be resolved because we won't even be aware of the resolution - as the cut to black shows it can't be experienced directly, only the fearful anticipation of the end can be but not the end itself.
Got to hand it to Chase and the team. Would have been easy to show Tony actually get shot or just confirm today wasn't the day and leave it as a threat but they found a way to have their cake and eat it with the construction of that scene and how they shot it.
There will never be a clear outcome: Tony is the equivalent of Schrödinger's cat; we don't know if he's alive or not and we can't look in the box to find out. Thus as Chase notes he might have been shot or he might not but it doesn't matter. The ending instead focuses you on the context: his life is wasted on crime and it's effects have spilled over to his family and sooner or later he'll die violently as a result and it'll be when he least expects it and he'll never know it happened.
Well put, especially the bolded part. The glimpse into Tony's anxiety we get througout the scene is what matters, not whether he got whacked in this diner, on this day. Because that's the fear he'll have to live with until the end.
talisayNon
Member
God Chase even said this himself.There's nothing special about this ending.
There is nothing more for the audience to see in Tony's world. We've seen what happens. His close friends get killed. His rivals gets killed. His associates go to jail. He feuds with fellow bosses. His children inherits the same problems. He still cannot control his infidelities. This is the same thing repeated ad infinitum. And eventually he will get taken down.
From the viewer's perspective we are offered this intimate look into the life of Tony Soprano. We have been with him for 6 seasons. There is nothing more for us to see. So bam. We get whacked.
There is nothing more for the audience to see in Tony's world. We've seen what happens. His close friends get killed. His rivals gets killed. His associates go to jail. He feuds with fellow bosses. His children inherits the same problems. He still cannot control his infidelities. This is the same thing repeated ad infinitum. And eventually he will get taken down.
From the viewer's perspective we are offered this intimate look into the life of Tony Soprano. We have been with him for 6 seasons. There is nothing more for us to see. So bam. We get whacked.
RoninChaos
Member
Part of me thinks chase was really fucking with people. I remember reading an article where he said something like "You people have cheered for this psychopath for 6 seasons and now you want him to have his comeuppance? What's wrong with you?"
He seemed really bothered by the audience liking tony and I think that's why they had tony do an abrupt about face in the last season after he'd shown that he really could change. Then they had him do the stuff with Christopher and all of that. And I think that's because chase started really disliking the audience. Tony got cartoonish in the last season even though he had a life changing event and went a different route for a while.
He seemed really bothered by the audience liking tony and I think that's why they had tony do an abrupt about face in the last season after he'd shown that he really could change. Then they had him do the stuff with Christopher and all of that. And I think that's because chase started really disliking the audience. Tony got cartoonish in the last season even though he had a life changing event and went a different route for a while.
I thought the ending was supposed to show how unsettling Tony's life is every waking moment, not that he got clipped. He might have been, I guess, who cares. But we aren't shown that.
What is this supposed to show?
My absolute all-time favourite television ending.
Perfection.
Not really.
What is this supposed to show?
The camera specifically following the Italian-American man in the "Members Jacket" as he walks across the diner and enters the bathroom as a means of highlighting his significance, in such a way that the Soprano family are rendered almost insignificant in the shot.
Davey Cakes
Member
This is how I took it as well.
In any case, there isn't one correct answer. That's why it's a good ending.
That life goes on. There's no big redemption or turning point. They went through some shit. They dealt with it. Tomorrow's gonna have it's own problems to deal with.
They did the same with Mad Men (same producers as Sopranos, I think),
although the writers said they intentionally left it open to interpretation, Jon Hamm did mention that it was a life goes on situation according to the showrunner iirc
I agree with this video, makes perfect sense to me and I can't see how it could be refuted convincingly.
But each to their own I guess, just enjoy the show.
I think it's a bit much to take that as an absolute certainty that Tony gets got. I think the show just wants us to suspect nearly everybody in that diner, because that's how Tony lived.
I'll add it also emphasised the location of the door to the men's room.
When he comes out he'll be walking directly towards Tony approaching from the side.
If he were to shoot Tony on emerging as Tony looked forward to the door Tony wouldn't know a thing. Curtains. Cut to black.
It's so simply done; setting up the scene such that Tony could get killed but of course it could just be a false alarm and he's just taking a leak.
It's more that Tony said many times and deliberately throughout the show that the movie and that scene in particular was his favorite.
Cracklox
Member
Further to that it shows where Meadow would be sitting if she didn't stuff around parking for so long. Shot from the bathroom would have been obscured some, and things wouldn't have gone nearly as cleanly.
There WAS a reason after all for constantly coming back to Meadow and showing her trying to park for so long
True - should have called that out too. Her delay left him staring straight ahead a lot checking the door and exposed on the side.
Again - it really was a very well constructed scene. I think its banality fools a lot of people who expected something obviously "big" be it a shootout or an arrest or whatever but while its deceptively small in locale and what happens the scene is really, really detailed in its construction and how it unfolds.
You can easily see how they could have chosen angles to emphasize what's going on in a more obvious way - direct shots of the implied threat of MOC guy, Tony exposed to approach from men's room door, etc, etc. but it's kept low key and subtle and a lot of the detail is hidden in plain view behind mostly prosaic framing and cutting.
But repeatedly in the show, if someone was to get killed, they just walk up and shoot them. Nobody is hanging around in front of a bunch of witnesses for twenty minutes. They would have walked in the door, straight to Tony and killed him.
Militaratus
Member
I thought the ending was a reference to Halo 2' ending, especially so when
I H8 Memes
Member
This thread is all the proof anyone needs that Six Feet Under is by far the better ending. Anybody can do ambiguity. The Lady or The Tiger? There I just did it. That's how incredibly original ambiguity is. It's the easy way out when you cant figure out how to end a story yourself.
Obviously as noted it's designed to imply and not be definite so of course they don't have that kind of traditional hit (and indeed you can take this as casting doubt on whether he is a hit man).
But the scene shows he seems to be hanging around as though waiting for an opportunity, that he goes to the bathroom when Tony remains exposed on that side for a while and that he's then in position to either turn back or go into/emerge from the bathroom and shoot Tony.
As I noted for me the excellence of the scene is its constructed to equally support various interpretations.
The ending isn't just ambiguous because you don't see Tony shot (or definitely survive) but because that entire sequence sets up a possible hit or a possible false alarm with no way to be sure which it is from the available information.
The use of certain cuts imply he's a hit guy and as noted they definitely show he's in exactly the right place at the right time to get a clean kill shot on Tony. But equally he might just be going for a leak and nothing else in which case the shots just definitely show someone heading into the bathroom behind Tony.
No matter how people argue for/against one or the other the scene as shot and cut together prohibits 100% certainty one way or the other.
All you can take away 100% from the final sequence of shots is that Tony is living under clear threat of violent death that could come at any moment.
Bolivar687
Banned
It's not ambiguous. The final scene establishes a pattern wherein the bell rings, Tony looks up, then we are a shot from his POV. In the final moment, the bell rings, Tony looks up and his POV is an extended cut of nothing. It would only be ambiguous if the credits hit right after he looked up and we didn't get to see his POV. But we do get to see it, for a deliberately long duration, and it's oblivion. Season Six Part II went out of the way to prepare the viewer for this kind of hit and even had a heavy-handed flashback of one of these scenes in the penultimate episode to drive it home. Tony is dead. I'm sure many of the linked videos lay this out.
That said, I do like the idea that the scene also represents Tony's self-imposed paranoia. The fact that he scrutinizes the cub scout leader is vintage Sopranos dark humor.
I think Chase talks as if it's ambiguous so he can spur on the debate and mess with the conversation. It's clear he became disenchanted with the audience and in part the way he depicted Tony's death is a jab at them. Much like Funny Games, he's robbing the audience of the cathartic violence they want.
He achieved what he wanted but it's still an underwhelming ending to a season that didn't really live up to the quality it already set out. Still the GOAT show - Jersey!
That said, I do like the idea that the scene also represents Tony's self-imposed paranoia. The fact that he scrutinizes the cub scout leader is vintage Sopranos dark humor.
I think Chase talks as if it's ambiguous so he can spur on the debate and mess with the conversation. It's clear he became disenchanted with the audience and in part the way he depicted Tony's death is a jab at them. Much like Funny Games, he's robbing the audience of the cathartic violence they want.
He achieved what he wanted but it's still an underwhelming ending to a season that didn't really live up to the quality it already set out. Still the GOAT show - Jersey!
Same, though I remember thinking my cable went out, lol
Quoting someone else's work is "doing it"? Okay.
Personally I think you're falling into the trap of thinking that ambiguity is inherently inferior which I'd argue isn't the case. In the right circumstances - The Lady & The Tiger is a good example - it is the better choice.
The Sopranos I'd argue is a case where ambiguity was neither lazy nor easy option.
The easy option was to simply show Tony shot and killed. Bang. Easy comeuppance. Blood all over his family. Crime doesn't pay in the end. Done and move on to another show.
Or show him get away with it but consigned to a life of paranoia and estrangement from his family.
Both have been done and done well and neither would be original. Any other ending would seem crazy given the context of The Sopranos.
But to wrap up both endings together and make both work at the same time and focus the viewer on the implications of each for longer, make them think vs just go "yup that's that and move on"? That I'd argue was the harder path and the one they took.
Of course ambiguity is often a lazy way out similar to some Deus Ex Machina but I don't see any evidence with The Sopranos that was the case. A definitive ending would have been easier in this case and had less impact.
Ultimately it's about what works best: it's a mistake to assume that it's always better to have a definitive ending (or an ambigous one).
Would Kubrick's The Shining be better without the carefully constructed later of ambiguity? Without every key ghost interaction with Jack taking place with a mirror conspicuously present? Without the eerie pan into the B&W picture of Jack apparently present in the hotel years beforehand?
I don't think so.
Cracklox
Member
Well, given he's been pretty coy about the whole thing since, there's no reason to believe that that wasn't some of the intent behind the shots. But with all the other evidence supporting the 'he dead' theory, it seems pretty clear it was there for a more important reason
I'm not sure he was that super paranoid during the scene though. Sure he is some cos he's a mob boss and all. But with the Carlo situation seemingly under control and Phil Leotardo out of the picture I think he was a little more relaxed then normal. I took every time he looked up at the bell as being anxious for his family arriving. He clearly lets his guard down more then a few times perusing juke box selections and menu's, and doesn't even notice MOG until he walks right by him. And this was despite the fact that he walked in, right in front of AJ. Again, he was anxious and excited to be catching up with his family that he didn't see the dude that (very likely) killed him until he walked straight in front of him.
And i think you're right about Chase. He's all but said he was whacked. He seemed a little taken aback after the initial airing that people didn't seem to get it. I think he may have over-estimated just how smart the average viewer is, especially to pick up on everything and put it all together in one viewing. I sure didn't. So he just decided it would be more fun to be coy about it, which in a sense has made it even greater, because here we are 10 years later, still debating what might have happened
*edit * all this talk makes me wanna go binge the whole series. Its beena few years
ThanksVision
Member
My family abhors the ending because they are extremely cynical -- thinking it was created this way so that the series could return at a later date. I personally love it.
Rien
Jelly Belly
Yeah, Louis Brasi sleeps with the fishes.
Ignatz Mouse
Banned
Except that he's relaxed in that scene. In fact, that's probably why he gets whacked.
Ignatz Mouse
Banned
Before I saw this, I heard about the whole ambiguity thing already, so slightly spoiled.
When I saw it-- I thought he died but couldn't have told you why.
Then I read the breakdown of the editing and it cemented it for me.
There are reasons not to show his death besides creating a sense of ambiguity. Chase seemed to genuinely hate Tony by the end of the series, and view him as a monster. And he seemed to have certain moral judgments about people who got to live vicariously through him. He said somewhere that he didn't want to give people an easy out with the ending. Having Tony die suddenly, jarringly, with no spectacle accomplishes that. Seeing him shot instead would glamorize the violence further.
I like ambiguity (Inception, Blade Runner) but it's not always the best route and I don't think that's what the end of Sopranos was aiming for, nor is it what I took from it.
If other people took it as ambiguous and are satisfied by that, more power to them. To me, Tony is unambiguously dead and the ending is more powerful for it.
Also, goddamn what a fine hour of television the entire last episode is.
When I saw it-- I thought he died but couldn't have told you why.
Then I read the breakdown of the editing and it cemented it for me.
There are reasons not to show his death besides creating a sense of ambiguity. Chase seemed to genuinely hate Tony by the end of the series, and view him as a monster. And he seemed to have certain moral judgments about people who got to live vicariously through him. He said somewhere that he didn't want to give people an easy out with the ending. Having Tony die suddenly, jarringly, with no spectacle accomplishes that. Seeing him shot instead would glamorize the violence further.
I like ambiguity (Inception, Blade Runner) but it's not always the best route and I don't think that's what the end of Sopranos was aiming for, nor is it what I took from it.
If other people took it as ambiguous and are satisfied by that, more power to them. To me, Tony is unambiguously dead and the ending is more powerful for it.
Also, goddamn what a fine hour of television the entire last episode is.
Bolivar687
Banned
You might be right and as Ignatz Mouse suggests above, it might actually be a factor in why the hit was successful. I've seen another video suggesting in the episodes leading up to the finale, Tony was uncharacteristically not being very careful. Also, we know the person coming in is Meadow, if it wasn't for her, he might have heard or paid attention to someone coming out of the bathroom.
TheOnlyOneHeEverFeared
Member
My family said this! I said they left a long gap between 2007 and when Gandolfini died if they wanted to do it.