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[piratepwnsninja]

I probably missed this, but was it ever explained why Elizanna had these powers, and how Comstooker knew?

 

[Dodecagon]

I have read up on quantum theory. All mechanics did was take it one step further and say that instead of both things existing until observed, not it says both things still exist after being observed but the non-observation has its own reality somewhere else.



That's the theory!

Right, well first off there is no reason to separate quantum mechanics and quantum theory. And you are correct in pointing out that there are many states with differing probabilities occurring simultaneously, and upon observation this distribution of probabilities collapses to one point. However, in order to extrapolate beyond this to a many world situation, several key physical rules have to be violated. It's a fun discussion worth having, and I will say that a very few theoretical physicists, one name Dewitt funny enough, believe this. But the game fails to really dig into any sort of explanation and when it does it falls flat on it's face. Not from a narrative perspective, well at least in my opinion, but from a scientific standpoint. R andom side note, Luttece's chalkboards even have simple newtonian harmonic oscillator equations scribbled on them. Come on, at least have some non newtonian physics up there.

 

[BruceLeeRoy]

Just have to chime in and point out that I love this discussion.

For me this is evidence that games are capable of being more than shallow multi-player death matches...not that those can't be fun. I just find this experience much more engaging and thought provoking.

Yeah it's a big success for Irrational.

 

[Sorian]

Yeah I speculated that before, it could be a tear right to the last point (unlikely) or cutting out all the replaying of the same stuff for gameplay sake (the one I actually believe). Just what he mentioned about it being the one perfect Booker from start to finish didn't sit well with me, I don't accept that idea.

Well at the very end, assuming we go with the second line of logic, that Booker is the perfect one that did everything right. We may not have played him the whole way through but he did all the same things we did except for dying

 

[Bucca]

Hold on, why would I drown myself when I'm not the booker who chose to be baptized and became Comstock? I fail to see how that eliminates Comstock from all timelines.

Cause you're the Booker that REJECTED the baptism, which makes the Booker that ACCEPTED it becoming Comstock, travel through a tear to find you to take Elizabeth/Anna.

By choosing to neither accept nor reject the baptism and Booker killing himself, he put a stop to the infinite loop that would be caused had he picked one or the other.

 

[antonz]

Hold on, why would I drown myself when I'm not the booker who chose to be baptized and became Comstock? I fail to see how that eliminates Comstock from all timelines.

You accept your fate as a means of eliminating Comstock. He vowed to end it by smothering the son of a bitch in the cradle. The cradle just happened to be the baptism. One Anna tries to pull him away saying no he is Booker while another pulls and says no he is Comstock.

He accepts the role he is to play by saying no I am both of them. He allowed Comstock to do his evil by selling Anna to him. So he accepts that he is both of them to end the evil once and for all

 

[jacksepticeye]

Hold on, why would I drown myself when I'm not the booker who chose to be baptized and became Comstock? I fail to see how that eliminates Comstock from all timelines.

By killing Booker before he even made either choice you kill all the Bookers and Comstocks that resulted from that choice. All the Bookers after refusing and all the Bookers that accepted and ebcame Comstock are killed.

But Bookers that never went there are still alive. Also the place you are in when you are drowned is the universe where he accepted the Baptism, hence why Liz says it's a different place to where you were before (he rejected it there)

 

[The One Who Knocks]

Yeah I speculated that before, it could be a tear right to the last point (unlikely) or cutting out all the replaying of the same stuff for gameplay sake (the one I actually believe). Just what he mentioned about it being the one perfect Booker from start to finish didn't sit well with me, I don't accept that idea.

I mentioned playing as the perfect Booker because we play through the events of the perfect Booker (minus any deaths we have ourselves), not necessarily because we play as a single Booker (which I don't believe we do if you die in combat). The bolded is precisely what I'm saying (although I probably didn't make that clear).

 

[jacksepticeye]

I mentioned playing as the perfect Booker because we play through the events of the perfect Booker (minus any deaths we have ourselves), not necessarily because we play as a single Booker (which I don't believe we do if you die in combat). The bolded is precisely what I'm saying (although I probably didn't make that clear).

I see, so everyone is pretty much on the same page more or less in this regard.

Anyone figure out the significance to #77? there has to be a reason for that number in particular, or maybe it's an inside joke and Ken just loves 1977 or something
EDIT: googled it and saw this "The denomination 77 for this year has been used since the early medieval period, when the Anno Domini calendar era became the prevalent method in Europe for naming years."
I highlighted some interesting letters

 

[Noray]

I feel stupid for only coming up with the question now, I thought I had it all figured out, but...

why do we see multiple Elizabeths and Bookers in the sea of lighthouses at the end? That basically implies that they didn't break the cycle, that they're going to go through this thing infinitely, doesn't it? I really want that not to be the case

 

[jacksepticeye]

I feel stupid for only coming up with the question now, I thought I had it all figured out, but...

why do we see multiple Elizabeths and Bookers in the sea of lighthouses at the end? That basically implies that they didn't break the cycle, that they're going to go through this thing infinitely, doesn't it? I really want that not to be the case

It means the character of Elizabeth ceases to exist, Comstock was never created and thus he never stole Anna away to become Liz.

 

[BruceLeeRoy]

I have read up on quantum theory. All mechanics did was take it one step further and say that instead of both things existing until observed, not it says both things still exist after being observed but the non-observation has its own reality somewhere else.



That's the theory!

Wait how would you be a new Brooker when Liz is clearly resesatating you?

 

[piratepwnsninja]

I feel stupid for only coming up with the question now, I thought I had it all figured out, but...

why do we see multiple Elizabeths and Bookers in the sea of lighthouses at the end? That basically implies that they didn't break the cycle, that they're going to go through this thing infinitely, doesn't it? I really want that not to be the case

Because they don't always kill Booker by drowning him, so the cycle continues.

 

[jacksepticeye]

Wait how would you be a new Brooker when Liz is clearly resesatating you?

You don't when she brings you back, you become a new Booker when she doesn't revive you and you end up in Booker's Office again

 

[Noray]

Because they don't always kill Booker by drowning him, so the cycle continues.

That doesn't make sense to me because to even arrive at that point Liz has to break the siphon. And if she does that, she sees "what's behind all the doors" and thus knows what has to be done.

 

[xam3l]

I felt violated. It's like when I saw Oldboy man!
I think that confused/shocked me more than all the fringe/lost ending lol.

I feel like shit after all that sexual tension. lulz

 

[Jarekx]

I will say my favorite part of this game ( and also the one that made me feel shittiest) was the whole sequence in the future. I actually felt like I had failed her. It was very effective.

 

[teh_pwn]

Hold on, why would I drown myself when I'm not the booker who chose to be baptized and became Comstock? I fail to see how that eliminates Comstock from all timelines.

Because you're the constant, "common ancestor" of all of the millions of million worlds Bookers. The story makes sense if you're very flexible with the whole multi-universe thing. The writers obviously put a lot of though into it, but the rules are so malleable that it's hard to find definitive holes.

It's like watching Doctor Who. Don't overthink it.

 

[FunkyMunkey]

Ok guys I made to try to get my head around this and hopefully help some people here ( although I'm afraid this might confuse them more, if it's not correct )
Let me know if there is any mistake/error in here!

Only looked at the beginning of the timeline, but you're not accounting for the Bookers who never go to the baptism and are left unscathed by Elizabeth's actions. The Bookers who actually go, cease to exist, whether they were going to back out or not.

 

[piratepwnsninja]

That doesn't make sense to me because to even arrive at that point Liz has to break the siphon. And if she does that, she sees "what's behind all the doors" and thus knows what has to be done.

But just because she knows doesn't mean that is what Booker does.

 

[Guevara]

I finally really looked at the lyrics to Will The Circle Be Unbroken (often heard in many areas of the game):

There are loved ones in the glory
Whose dear forms you often miss.
When you close your earthly story,
Will you join them in their bliss?

CHORUS:
Will the circle be unbroken
By and by, by and by?
Is a better home awaiting
In the sky, in the sky?

In the joyous days of childhood
Oft they told of wondrous love
Pointed to the dying Saviour;
Now they dwell with Him above.​

Just thought that was interesting

 

[The One Who Knocks]

Only looked at the beginning of the timeline, but you're not accounting for the Bookers who never go to the baptism and are left unscathed by Elizabeth's actions. The Bookers who actually go, cease to exist, whether they were going to back out or not.

If Bookers took part in and survived Wounded Knee, these Bookers always goes to the baptism. It is a constant. The set of Bookers that don't go to the baptism is irrelevant to the timeline as they would not be traumatised to the war and turn to gambling and alcohol as a result.

 

[endresults]

Only looked at the beginning of the timeline, but you're not accounting for the Bookers who never go to the baptism and are left unscathed by Elizabeth's actions. The Bookers who actually go, cease to exist, whether they were going to back out or not.

Isn't the baptism a constant, meaning it happens to every living Booker on that day?

 

[Noray]

But just because she knows doesn't mean that is what Booker does.

But it's the same Booker, right? Why would he choose something else?

 

[Scott32020]

Was anyone slightly disappointed with the Rapture reveal? I think they should have done something like when in the elevators in Columbia you could see all the different things happening on each floor. Maybe have one of the circular underwater windows give you a glimpse into the office of Andrew Ryan with him in it. I did enjoy it, but was hoping they would have shown it a little more alive.

 

[antitrop]

I finally really looked at the lyrics to Will The Circle Be Unbroken (often heard in many areas of the game):
Just thought that was interesting

I work at a certain popular southern American breakfast food chain that plays old-timey music and this was playing when I walked into work this morning.

'Twas a sign.

 

[Guevara]

Was anyone slightly disappointed with the Rapture reveal? I think they should have done something like when in the elevators in Columbia you could see all the different things happening on each floor. Maybe have one of the circular underwater windows give you a glimpse into the office of Andrew Ryan with him in it. I did enjoy it, but was hoping they would have shown it a little more alive.

Yes. I had heard rumors of going back to Rapture. I was hoping it would be a walk through Rapture in it's prime (1959 maybe). Not the same old room from the beginning of B1.

(I mean it was still cool though)

 

[Dodecagon]

Yes. I had heard rumors of going back to Rapture. I was hoping it would be a walk through Rapture in it's prime (1959 maybe). Not the same old room from the beginning of B1.

(I mean it was still cool though)

Oh my, hadn't even considered how brilliant a vibrant Rapture could have been. DLC

 

[Scott32020]

Yes. I had heard rumors of going back to Rapture. I was hoping it would be a walk through Rapture in it's prime (1959 maybe). Not the same old room from the beginning of B1.

(I mean it was still cool though)

That would have been nice too, creating an allegory of the utopia before the dystopia, just as you saw in Columbia. (With the exception in Columbia of the negative elements of racism, etc. in pre-collapse Columbia)

 

[Asuma01]

Is it explained EXACTLY who songbird is? I know its a mix of human/machine. But is WHO the human was important at all? There was a while during the playing of the game that I entertained the thought of comstock being the songbird.

 

[Guevara]

Is it explained EXACTLY who songbird is? I know its a mix of human/machine. But is WHO the human was important at all? There was a while during the playing of the game that I entertained the thought of comstock being the songbird.

No but it's a great question. We get much more information on one of the Handymen, his whole back story, wife etc. than we do on the Songbird.

 

[Gartooth]

Wait what the heck is this about 123 Bookers? How would you even get the extra Bookers in the first place, the Booker that needs to save Elizabeth only comes from the dimension that Comstock kidnapped Anna from right?

 

[Noray]

Wait what the heck is this about 123 Bookers? How would you even get the extra Bookers in the first place, the Booker that needs to save Elizabeth only comes from the dimension that Comstock kidnapped Anna from right?

There are many Comstocks and they all kidnap an Anna from a Booker that didn't get baptized. At least that's my take.

 

[Beelzeboss]

If we're getting some kind of story DLC I think one of them will be about what Songbird is.

Fink made it right? Maybe the DLC will be about the Booker that helps Daisy and becomes a martyr

 

[The One Who Knocks]

Wait what the heck is this about 123 Bookers? How would you even get the extra Bookers in the first place, the Booker that needs to save Elizabeth only comes from the dimension that Comstock kidnapped Anna from right?

There are an infinite amount of timelines:

Everytime Booker 'messes up' the Luteces take another Booker from the infinite set of Bookers that sold Anna and lived in regret for twenty years and brough him to a Comstock universe and carried out everything the exact same only changing one/two etc. events at a time (while the constants are constants and must be worked around). That's why the Luteces make repeated references to having done it before and why certain things have occured such as 122 pre-existing head marks on the chalkboard, 'songbird always stops you' and the Luteces talking about the shield possibly killing Booker instead of working. Died, dies, will die. Booker has died in a previous attempt due to an incorrect variable, dies in this attempt due to a variable, will die in the next attempt due to another variable (until it is 'broken' and the perfect Booker gets through to reset the timeline).

Edit: It's pertinent that not all 'infinites' are the same size which is why different infinite sets can be subsets of other infinite sets. The Bookers that sold Anna to Comstock and lived in regret for twenty years is an infinite set that's a subset of the infinite set of Bookers that rejected baptism.

 

[therealminime]

If we're getting some kind of story DLC I think one of them will be about what Songbird is.

Fink made it right?

I don't know, I kind of think there is just enough information on the Songbird. I like that it is still mysterious, just like the big daddies. And yeah, Fink saw a big daddy through a tear and that was his main inspiration to create the Songbird. A melding of man and machine to protect Elizabeth and keep her locked up.

 

[EatChildren]

Where do you get from? The way I see it, Booker DeWitt dies AT the baptism, closing off the possibility of becoming Comstock AND getting married and having Anna.

The emphasis on the baptism, along with the post-credits sequence, lead me to to interpret that.

People want to assume there is a happy ending, the scene after the credits is either the worst red herring ever or Levine was forced to add in something that could hint at a happy ending.

I don't give a shit if there's a happy ending or not, it's simply an observation of multi-verse logistics at play in the game. If Booker drowns during the baptism, Booker rejecting baptism is still a variable. Dead drowned Comstock does not negate this. The Booker-with-Anna-not-Comstock universe remains, but without the meddling from Comstock.

 

[Snacks the sober sea lion]

Songbird still should have had more. He was really nothing more than an agent of the plot. Basically just there to prevent Booker and Elizabeth from walking away and appearing whenever it was dramatic.

 

[endresults]

It's kind of morbid thinking about how many times an Elizabeth had seen a Booker killed throughout the multiverse. Imagine all the times Booker died against the Vox and what they did to Elizabeth afterwards. *cringe*

Glad it's over.

The emphasis on the baptism, along with the post-credits sequence, lead me to to interpret that.

That damn post credit sequence screws a lot of things up - things that will hopefully be sorted out in the DLC's.

 

[LuuKyK]

Are you kidding me? 100 pages. it took me too long to finish the game now I wont be able to read this whole thread AT ALL.

Anyway, just wanted to say that the whole ending sequence just blew my mind and Im still trying to understand it fully, but the moment they arrived in Rapture I literally said Holy Shit! at my PC. lmao How crazy. Also that shot where all the bookers and Elizabeths are walking around the lighthouses is just sooo pretty.

I will read some of the posts here to see what you guys thought about all the multi dimensional thing.

 

[spirity]

There are an infinite amount of timelines:


Everytime Booker 'messes up' the Luteces take another Booker from the infinite set of Bookers that sold Anna and lived in regret for twenty years and brough him to a Comstock universe and carried out everything the exact same only changing one/two etc. events at a time (while the constants are constants and must be worked around). That's why the Luteces make repeated references to having done it before and why certain things have occured such as 122 pre-existing head marks on the chalkboard, 'songbird always stops you' and the Luteces talking about the shield possibly killing Booker instead of working. Died, dies, will die. Booker has died in a previous attempt due to an incorrect variable, dies in this attempt due to a variable, will die in the next attempt due to another variable (until it is 'broken' and the perfect Booker gets through to reset the timeline).

Edit: It's pertinent that not all 'infinites' are the same size which is why different infinite sets can be subsets of other infinite sets. The Bookers that sold Anna to Comstock and lived in regret for twenty years is an infinite set that's a subset of the infinite set of Bookers that rejected baptism.

Yeah, there's a kind of Groundhog day going on, where Bill Murray is unaware of the repeating events, but a couple of onlookers are, and they're trying to engineer the right set of variables to get Bill to the next day.

 

[The One Who Knocks]

The emphasis on the baptism, along with the post-credits sequence, lead me to to interpret that.



I don't give a shit if there's a happy ending or not, it's simply an observation of multi-verse logistics at play in the game. If Booker drowns during the baptism, Booker rejecting baptism is still a variable. Dead drowned Comstock does not negate this. The Booker-with-Anna-not-Comstock universe remains, but without the meddling from Comstock.

I agree with your conclusion and the logic in the second part but I don't agree that she only drowns the Comstocks that accept because she specifically states that she has to drown Booker before he accepts, not following it (but I still agree that this is ultimately leads to the same conclusion as you've described).

EDIT: https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=F-VJ3j2bPJk#t=946s "before the choice is made, before you are reborn"

 

[Gartooth]

Is the Booker at the after the credits sequence a Booker from another reality where Comstock didn't intervene, or just a corrected timeline using the same Booker from his own reality, where his life plays out differently because Comstock didn't intervene? (due to Comstock being born leading to a paradox that Elizabeth forced)

 

[antonz]

Is the Booker at the after the credits sequence a Booker from another reality where Comstock didn't intervene, or just a corrected timeline using the same Booker from his own reality, where his life plays out differently because Comstock didn't intervene? (due to Comstock being born leading to a paradox that Elizabeth forced)

There is really no confirmation who he is timeline wise.

He could be a Booker who has Anna and never has to worry about Comstock coming along.

He could be a Booker who after Anna etc are wiped from existence still has a memory of having a daughter so rushes to check on her and its possible she's not there.

We could be seeing that the circle wasn't broken and its all about to start again.

 

[Gorillaz]

The booker after the credits to me seems to be one that has vague memories of Columbia. He sounded like he wasn't sure if everything was back to normal or not.

Despite the fact its not 1912 (according to the calender on the desk) so it could be before he went deep into debt

 

[Hasphat'sAnts]

Beat it on Hard the first time.

Definitely gonna go Easy next time just to experiment with vigors and whatnot.

 

[nomis]

Beat it on Hard the first time.

Definitely gonna go Easy next time just to experiment with vigors and whatnot.

You're gonna fall asleep on Easy. Medium is plenty easy to soak in the sights. Chances are you won't even die if you beat it on Hard.

 

[theytookourjobz]

I really could give two shits about game stories 99% of the time. I've been reading this thread and watching YouTube videos all day. Wish I had friends who played games to talk about this shit with!

 

[GolazoDan]

I just finished the game and my jaw is still firmly against the floor. That entire home stretch was absolutely stunning.

 

[Hasphat'sAnts]

I felt violated. It's like when I saw Oldboy man!
I think that confused/shocked me more than all the fringe/lost ending lol.

I feel like shit after all that sexual tension. lulz

There was sexual tension? Wat.

HL2 had way more of that going on, and Gordon doesn't even talk!