Real Igor never got to encounter Joker until the end, he was locked up first. Its why you don't become a true guest of the Velvet Room Until rank 10 because you only ever entered Yldaboath's Velvet Room to that point. I don't think we've ever seen Igor awaken a wild card but maybe he can, he seems to have become considerably more significant to the Velvet Room since Philemon left (his temporary absence even effects the attendants in Q and they are definitely very powerful beings).
You see Joker awaken when the Meta Nav App first appears and time freezes and you see the vague outline of Arsene in blue flame. And the Meta Nav seems to be Yldaboath's doing since he grants it to the other Phantom Thieves.
Personally I'd prefer something closer to how Persona 4 Golden handled its finale & epilogue. I appreciated the tension created by how Persona 5 handles things, but I'd be more satisfied in the end with something more akin to Golden.
Show a little less condescension! Having also experienced P4G's wonderful, wonderful winter epilogue, I don't think it completely overshadows P5's. They both go for different things, and I was immensely satisfied with both. Sides, the Winter month's have Marie's dungeon which instantly disqualifies it from being perfect.
P5's ending is neat send off to the game's original plan, which was a road trip of buddies.
But I didn't feel the sadness of leaving the game. Might just be how I've changed as a person since P4, or that I didn't feel as close to the friends in P5, even though I think they played off each other way better than the P4 cast (Yusuke threatening to leave a moving vehicle was priceless)
Show a little less condescension! Having also experienced P4G's wonderful, wonderful winter epilogue, I don't think it completely overshadows P5's. They both go for different things, and I was immensely satisfied with both. Sides, the Winter month's have Marie's dungeon which instantly disqualifies it from being perfect.
Finally beat the game, the final boss was really cool(albeit on the easy side while on normal). Loved the final summon moment, the final MC persona was great and had an awesome reveal.
Favorite characters are Ryuji and Makoto. Ryuji wore a bit thin in the middle when he was craving fame. Makoto was just all-round great. Easily the best. Futabe was a good too, and probably the best representative of the hikkimori type I've seen.
Finally beat the game, the final boss was really cool(albeit on the easy side while on normal). Loved the final summon moment, the final MC persona was great and had an awesome reveal.
Favorite characters are Ryuji and Makoto. Ryuji wore a bit thin in the middle when he was craving fame. Makoto was just all-round great. Easily the best. Futabe was a good too, and probably the best representative of the hikkimori type I've seen.
It was so good how Yaldy just kind of trails off during his smug victory speech and starts silently shitting himself as Ultra Friendship Satan slowly descends from a dark cloud.
Agreed on Ryuji's glorymongering being a drag on the character, but at least he pulled out of that slump.
P5's ending is neat send off to the game's original plan, which was a road trip of buddies.
But I didn't feel the sadness of leaving the game. Might just be how I've changed as a person since P4, or that I didn't feel as close to the friends in P5, even though I think they played off each other way better than the P4 cast (Yusuke threatening to leave a moving vehicle was priceless)
I think the issue is this: P5 has confidants, not social links. The dungeon gameplay is also generally excellent.
In theory this doesn't make much difference, but in practice it removes a lot of the charm of the game. The problem is that in P5 each confidant is just a means to an end. You are not necessarily going through their story because you care, you are levelling then up so that at rank 7 you get more exp, or status healing or some other direct benefit in the dungeon. Since you actually look forward to the next battle section, this becomes the focus.
In P4 you are going through the story because it is literally the best part of the game. If you don't care about the characters, there is really no point in continuing to play. This almost forces you to care since you have probably spent so much time on it already and you might as well push on.
Overall this made for a more memorable experience and a more significant ending.
It was so good how Yaldy just kind of trails off during his smug victory speech and starts silently shitting himself as Ultra Friendship Satan slowly descends from a dark cloud.
Agreed on Ryuji's glorymongering being a drag on the character, but at least he pulled out of that slump.
I'm late in beating the game thanks to work/family. I really hope we get a 'crimson' edition. It would be really nice to see more of the background characters. Shiho deserves more attention considering how important she is early on. Same for Akechi.
Edit:
Was also hoping for a few callbacks to earlier Persona games. The grail story is similar to Persona 3 in many ways.
Finished earlier today. Haven't played a Persona game previously and didn't have an inkling of where it was going. Everything after Palace 6 just gets more and more intense. Really liked the way it unfolds
Show a little less condescension! Having also experienced P4G's wonderful, wonderful winter epilogue, I don't think it completely overshadows P5's. They both go for different things, and I was immensely satisfied with both. Sides, the Winter month's have Marie's dungeon which instantly disqualifies it from being perfect.
I didn't mind Marie's dungeon too much, and especially didn't mind considering it gave us those final winter months.
I feel that both Persona 3 and Persona 4 Golden excelled in the types of endings and epilogues they try to tell, whereas Persona 5's intense roller coaster finale left too little time for contemplation and ended too abruptly as a result. From memory...
In Persona 3,
you have a full month of new music, a new atmosphere, etc, to prepare for the final battle. Everyone is thinking of what may or may not come to pass, and this means that the final set of events coming all at once is largely acceptable and even preferable, since the player is more than prepared to experience it all at once by that point.
In Persona 4 Golden,
the events leading up to the end are paced more sparingly, and the epilogue winter months give players a chance to finish up social links and say goodbye to friends before the credits roll, leaving a lasting impression.
In Persona 5, events shortly after Palace 5 are closer together than before and soon enough the Phantom Thieves are being hit with one pressing issue after another, and by the time the they go after Shido (shortly after the incident in Sae's palace), they're only a week away from the final palace/boss of the entire game. From there, two time skips and a total of ~2 playable days separate the player and the credits.
I mean, sure, the intensity of the final climb up to the grail is good, but fat could be cut in many areas and pacing could be improved both before and afterwards.
I wish there was a difficulty that was more merciless than...Merciless. I beat the game the first time on Hard (which doesn't seem terribly different from Merciless, just less time grinding) and I didn't get anywhere near the level needed to fuse the higher level Personas or ever need to. At the very least some extra hard dungeon to explore that makes the later fusions worth it. I was basically set for the end-game with Trumpeter.
I didn't mind Marie's dungeon too much, and especially didn't mind considering it gave us those final winter months.
I feel that both Persona 3 and Persona 4 Golden excelled in the types of endings and epilogues they try to tell, whereas Persona 5's intense roller coaster finale left too little time for contemplation and ended too abruptly as a result. From memory...
In Persona 3,
you have a full month of new music, a new atmosphere, etc, to prepare for the final battle. Everyone is thinking of what may or may not come to pass, and this means that the final set of events coming all at once is largely acceptable and even preferable, since the player is more than prepared to experience it all at once by that point.
In Persona 4 Golden,
the events leading up to the end are paced more sparingly, and the epilogue winter months give players a chance to finish up social links and say goodbye to friends before the credits roll, leaving a lasting impression.
In Persona 5, events shortly after Palace 5 are closer together than before and soon enough the Phantom Thieves are being hit with one pressing issue after another, and by the time the they go after Shido (shortly after the incident in Sae's palace), they're only a week away from the final palace/boss of the entire game. From there, two time skips and a total of ~2 playable days separate the player and the credits.
I mean, sure, the intensity of the final climb up to the grail is good, but fat could be cut in many areas and pacing could be improved both before and afterwards.
I think it's worth stating that you described P3's and P4G's ending in a positive way because you liked them, and described P5's in a negative way because you didn't. Which is fine, obviously. The problem comes when you act high and mighty because somebody liked P5's epilogue for their own personal reasons that you don't even consider. I mean, how do you even know Lunar hasn't played P4G?
(Disregard this if you were just joking before. Just seemed like such a weird (and kinda rude) thing to say.)
I wish there was a difficulty that was more merciless than...Merciless. I beat the game the first time on Hard (which doesn't seem terribly different from Merciless, just less time grinding) and I didn't get anywhere near the level needed to fuse the higher level Personas or ever need to. At the very least some extra hard dungeon to explore that makes the later fusions worth it. I was basically set for the end-game with Trumpeter.
You'd be even less likely to reach the level to fuse them with the way Atlus usually does harder difficulty anyway ie making XP , equipment and compendium all harder to access. You might barelty clip 75 now without Reaper farming on the current difficulties , if you're an obsessive grinder. They put a lot of work into Persona for this levels and they just don't really do anything.
You'd be even less likely to reach the level to fuse them with the way Atlus usually does harder difficulty anyway ie making XP , equipment and compendium all harder to access. You might barelty clip 75 now without Reaper farming on the current difficulties , if you're an obsessive grinder. They put a lot of work into Persona for this levels and they just don't really do anything.
Isn't it already set up in the ending? They brought Morgana back, he still wants to become human, everyone is driving Joker home, obviously something's going to happen and they get thrown into a new Mementos.
Isn't it already set up in the ending? They brought Morgana back, he still wants to become human, everyone is driving Joker home, obviously something's going to happen and they get thrown into a new Mementos.
I think it's worth stating that you described P3's and P4G's ending in a positive way because you liked them, and described P5's in a negative way because you didn't. Which is fine, obviously.
I still enjoyed my time with all 3 modern Persona games, it's just that the tone, atmosphere, and message of 3 and 4 resonated with me personally more than 5 did - which probably lends itself, even partially - to why I prefer those endings more.
The problem comes when you act high and mighty because somebody liked P5's epilogue for their own personal reasons that you don't even consider. I mean, how do you even know Lunar hasn't played P4G?
(Disregard this if you were just joking before. Just seemed like such a weird (and kinda rude) thing to say.)
It was the furthest thing from my mind to 'act high and mighty' and I really do apologize that that's how it came out. I certainly never meant for it to be taken as an insult or to be rude in any form - my main point was that I knew he'd not played Golden from an interaction we'd had in an earlier thread (or possibly in this one a few pages ago, can't remember now) and having played Golden, it's what I personally wish 5's ending had been more like.
Knowing that, I wondered if maybe Lunar enjoyed 5's ending more because for him, Persona 4 ended more like Persona 5 currently ends, rather than being more drawn out with a proper epilogue as we see in Golden, or if he'd perhaps be even more satisfied with the latter rather than the former.
Again, I apologize for how it came across - was in transit posting from mobile, so I didn't really think too deeply about it. (It's been edited now.)
Isn't it already set up in the ending? They brought Morgana back, he still wants to become human, everyone is driving Joker home, obviously something's going to happen and they get thrown into a new Mementos.
Nah, he explicitly says that just because he's not a human now doesn't mean he can't become one, which is probably true since he's pretty much an artificial Shadow made by Igor from HOPE.
Here's the breakdown of the future of Persona 5. These are all official leaks I'm risking life and limb to bring to all of you.
Persona 5: The Final Problem - DLC Expansion and QoL improvements. Introduces a new girl who was a cat (white persian) but became human after wandering into the Metaverse and discovery the source of humanity. She offers to take Mona on the journey too and he follows her. While the normal Metaverse is gone, she can somehow open doors into Palaces using books. The party tags along but has their suspicions. She uses the Persona Moriarty.
Persona 5: Infinite Song Battle - After the events of The Final Problem, Mona is gone for good but Akechi has regained his consciousness. While he no longer resents the world, he still cannot accept defeat at the hands of the Phantom Thieves. To this end he announces a challenge they cannot turn down - a song and dance battle to the bitter end on the Red and White Show at New Year's.
Persona 5 Arena Shadow Lexicon - After settling in back at home for over a year, Joker is surprised to learn that his older brother is returning from his studies in England. As the family prepares to celebrate his return, Joker is contacted by Mitsuru and the Shadow Operatives, and they reveal that his brother is in fact the ringleader of a cult that plans to summon Nyarlathotep into the real world. Friends and rivals from past games are all gathered for the greatest battle of all.
I still enjoyed my time with all 3 modern Persona games, it's just that the tone, atmosphere, and message of 3 and 4 resonated with me personally more than 5 did - which probably lends itself, even partially - to why I prefer those endings more.
It was the furthest thing from my mind to 'act high and mighty' and I really do apologize that that's how it came out. I certainly never meant for it to be taken as an insult or to be rude in any form - my main point was that I knew he'd not played Golden from an interaction we'd had in an earlier thread (or possibly in this one a few pages ago, can't remember now) and having played Golden, it's what I personally wish 5's ending had been more like.
Knowing that, I wondered if maybe Lunar enjoyed 5's ending more because for him, Persona 4 ended more like Persona 5 currently ends, rather than being more drawn out with a proper epilogue as we see in Golden, or if he'd perhaps be even more satisfied with the latter rather than the former.
Again, I apologize for how it came across - was in transit posting from mobile, so I didn't really think too deeply about it. (It's been edited now.)
It's also entirely possible that nothing will change, though.
Persona 4 went for an entirely different thing. Persona 4 is a very character focused game, and so that long drawn out good bye in Persona 4 golden works. People feel attached to everyone by the end and so you're saying good bye as much as the MC is.
Persona 5 isn't going for a character focused story. The dynamic is completely different. I mean they're totally still good friends, obviously, but the game isn't focused around that camaraderie. The main theme of the game is how people get too comfortable with just accepting their life as is, and don't strive to improve it. They'd rather just stay locked in their mental prison, so to speak. With that in mind the ending is pretty perfect in conveying that they've broken beyond that and are now 'free' as Ryuji would say. I also actually really liked how the team/confidants all played their part in the ending to help the MC out of Juvie. It made everyone feel more like equals instead of what happens in 4 where you just feel everything kind of revolves around the MC.
Either way, I think it's unfair to say which ending is overall best in the respect of the fact they're all different. It's going to come down to preference. Despite still really liking it, I think Persona 4 is the worst of the 3 even after playing golden. However, that's just because I don't really appreciate the 'tone' of the game as much, I guess. On the other hand, if you really clicked with the characters, I can totally see why people would Prefer 4, and in turn the ending in golden which offers a heartfelt goodbye to all the characters.
Completely true - and honestly, outside of how abruptly you find yourself at the final boss, nothing really needs to change. It does what it sets out to do and does it well. I just wish Palace 6, 7, and 8 were ever so slightly more spread out, and that the Holy Grail was foreshadowed more. (Like Nyx in P3)
Persona 4 went for an entirely different thing. Persona 4 is a very character focused game, and so that long drawn out good bye in Persona 4 golden works. People feel attached to everyone by the end and so you're saying good bye as much as the MC is.
Persona 5 isn't going for a character focused story. The dynamic is completely different. I mean they're totally still good friends, obviously, but the game isn't focused around that camaraderie. The main theme of the game is how people get too comfortable with just accepting their life as is, and don't strive to improve it. They'd rather just stay locked in their mental prison, so to speak. With that in mind the ending is pretty perfect in conveying that they've broken beyond that and are now 'free' as Ryuji would say. I also actually really liked how the team/confidants all played their part in the ending to help the MC out of Juvie. It made everyone feel more like equals instead of what happens in 4 where you just feel everything kind of revolves around the MC.
Agreed - scenes like Kawakami, Toranosuke, and Ohya's in that final set of events really hit home the message of the game, in retrospect. I didn't give it much thought at the time due to how burnt out I was on the final series of dungeons, but it does wrap things up nicely and remains thematic throughout. I just guess I was hoping for the wrong thing when I thought it'd be more like Golden's epilogue - the timeskips took a lot of wind out of my sails.
Either way, I think it's unfair to say which ending is overall best in the respect of the fact they're all different. It's going to come down to preference. Despite still really liking it, I think Persona 4 is the worst of the 3 even after playing golden. However, that's just because I don't really appreciate the 'tone' of the game as much, I guess. On the other hand, if you really clicked with the characters, I can totally see why people would Prefer 4, and in turn the ending in golden which offers a heartfelt goodbye to all the characters.
Agreed - it's much the same for me. I like the tone of all 3 modern Persona games, but personally, the messages, characters, and journeys of 3 & 4 impacted me more than the message of 5, and its characters & such. I'm not saying any game is inherently worse than the others, but in terms of endings, they'll work for some, not work for others - it depends. It's a matter of flavor.
In terms of gameplay & UI polish, however, P5 is by far the best.
It would actually be cool if MC befriends a depressed kid stuck in juvie with him and using his experiences with changing hearts to help this kid out. Help drive home the "even without phantom thief powers, we can change the world" message.
Completely true - and honestly, outside of how abruptly you find yourself at the final boss, nothing really needs to change. It does what it sets out to do and does it well. I just wish Palace 6, 7, and 8 were ever so slightly more spread out, and that the Holy Grail was foreshadowed more. (Like Nyx in P3)
Granted, I had the benefit of foresight because I'm really weak and spoiled myself rotten after the Japanese release, but I felt they did a pretty good job of foreshadowing the Holy Grail. It seemed to me that there was a ton of moments spread through the game that focused on characters being flabbergasted that no one seemed to care about how bad things were around them. And this might just be my experiences with modern Persona talking, but as soon as characters make a point of mentioning how society seems to be sharing some bad personality trait (apathy to death, avoiding the truth, accepting society's chains), I took it to mean that the ultimate god-like thing you'll have to fight will be some kind of personification of those traits.
That said, Nyx was foreshadowed in a very different way, one that was both more overt and more oppressive. So it's not a straight comparison.
Agreed - scenes like Kawakami, Toranosuke, and Ohya's in that final set of events really hit home the message of the game, in retrospect. I didn't give it much thought at the time due to how burnt out I was on the final series of dungeons, but it does wrap things up nicely and remains thematic throughout. I just guess I was hoping for the wrong thing when I thought it'd be more like Golden's epilogue - the timeskips took a lot of wind out of my sails.
Agreed one hundred percent, that's been a big sticking point with me for all of the modern Persona games. They tell you up front that you have a year, only it's not really a year. At all. Some games were worse at this than others--if I remember right, as soon as you finished the killer's dungeon in vanilla P4 the game would
skip right to your last day in Inaba with no playable days in between
. On the whole though, I think the time skips are always annoying even if they do explain them in one way or another.
It would actually be cool if MC befriends a depressed kid stuck in juvie with him and using his experiences with changing hearts to help this kid out. Help drive home the "even without phantom thief powers, we can change the world" message.
Agreed one hundred percent, that's been a big sticking point with me for all of the modern Persona games. They tell you up front that you have a year, only it's not really a year. At all. Some games were worse at this than others--if I remember right, as soon as you finished the killer's dungeon in vanilla P4 the game would
skip right to your last day in Inaba with no playable days in between
. On the whole though, I think the time skips are always annoying even if they do explain them in one way or another.
It just hit so many great notes. Don't care if I haven't played P3 or P4 but P5's story really stuck with me. Going through and getting the Plat was a joy because I replayed on Dub and got a fresh take on the story (in ways) but also maxing out confidant links was great. Each arc was different and while some where shallower than others, I still like how they all ended.
I do need to play P3 FES at some point. Don't think I'll be buying a Vita just to play P4G though.
Personally I'd prefer something closer to how Persona 4 Golden handled its finale & epilogue. I appreciated the tension created by how Persona 5 handles things, but I'd be more satisfied in the end with something more akin to Golden.
I never played the Golden, so I can't really speak to it. What I liked about P5's epilogue in particular is that it reinforced the game's thesis while removing magical powers almost entirely.
After a whole game about thinking for yourself and taking action against injustice, I think it's poignant that the game's epilogue revolves around your friends and confidants rallying to free you from an unfair punishment. Destroying Yaldabaoth may have removed "distorted desires" from the world, but it didn't magically make Shido's supporters go away, or the people trying to silence you. It took the trust you built (despite being wrongly classified as a dangerous young man) to rally everyone towards an important cause. And it's not as if freeing him from those charges is easy: Japan's legal system is much harder to overturn when it comes to guilty parties.
It's a simple message, "do something". Even Mishima hands out fliers to try to generate support. It turns your confidants from some magical thing that gives you an ultimate persona into a real, tangible relationship that has an effect on your character's life. I also liked how we came full circle with Sae. Her arc was really well done, and I liked that you had someone who meant well but was wrapped up in a challenging environment with incredible pressure. The final little "interrogation" scene with her was well written.
While I absolutely adore P3 and 4's endings, neither of them really reinforced the point as well as P5 did. P3's is probably the closest, but I don't think it has the immediate call to action that 5 does. P4's is incredibly bittersweet because living in Inaba feels so real and leaving on a train had that sting of loss, but looking back, it doesn't really have quite the same connection to it's own message that 3 and 5 do.
Plus, I also liked the fact that they didn't just do another train station, and had the whole gang do the car trip instead. It really fit that crew, and the whole scene felt like another homage to Lupin III.
Keep in mind, when I say epilogue, I mean everything after Yaldabaoth. I'm very mixed on how everything after Palace 7 went down.
I never played the Golden, so I can't really speak to it. What I liked about P5's epilogue in particular is that it reinforced the game's thesis while removing magical powers almost entirely.
After a whole game about thinking for yourself and taking action against injustice, I think it's poignant that the game's epilogue revolves around your friends and confidants rallying to free you from an unfair punishment. Destroying Yaldabaoth may have removed "distorted desires" from the world, but it didn't magically make Shido's supporters go away, or the people trying to silence you. It took the trust you built (despite being wrongly classified as a dangerous young man) to rally everyone towards an important cause. And it's not as if freeing him from those charges is easy: Japan's legal system is much harder to overturn when it comes to guilty parties.
It's a simple message, "do something". Even Mishima hands out fliers to try to generate support. It turns your confidants from some magical thing that gives you an ultimate persona into a real, tangible relationship that has an effect on your character's life.
While I absolutely adore P3 and 4's endings, neither of them really reinforced the point as well as P5 did. P3's is probably the closest, but I don't think it has the immediate call to action that 5 does. P4's is incredibly bittersweet because living in Inaba feels so real and leaving on a train had that sting of loss, but looking back, it doesn't really have quite the same connection to it's own message that 3 and 5 do.
Plus, I also liked the fact that they didn't just do another train station, and had the whole gang do the car trip instead. It really fit that crew, and the whole scene felt like another homage to Lupin III.
Agree with everything you said especially the fact they drive you home which shows that they're not so far away from mc. Still think there should have been some downtime after the last boss. A trip somewhere instead of rapid progress to the end. Still a stellar game after two playthroughs. L
Agree with everything you said especially the fact they drive you home which shows that they're not so far away from mc. Still think there should have been some downtime after the last boss. A trip somewhere instead of rapid progress to the end. Still a stellar game after two playthroughs. L
Driving him home could be like, 3 hours. No different than Yu taking the train from the city to Inaba, which couldn't be more than 3 hours either.
Also, downtime after the final boss is a weird thing to me since I'm coming off of Vanilla P4, where you IMMEDIATELY jumped to the end of the game after the killer's dungeon. This game felt more liberating as a result, lol. I could certainly see how playing golden's more drawn out ending would have made this one seem too quick. That said, I never REALLY had an issue with the hard timeskip. These games are long enough as is.
