Kadayi
Banned
But again, there's no reason they couldn't just use droids as pilots previously. Instead of it being a Kamikaze act.
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Star Wars The Last Jedi Spoiler discussion thread: THERE WILL BE UNMARKED SPOILERS!
- Thread starter Kimawolf
- Start date
But again, there's no reason they couldn't just use droids as pilots previously. Instead of it being a Kamikaze act.
rokkerkory
Member
Yeah but if we started to think that way, then every fighter vehicle would have been piloted by a droid from even the first movies. Droids were always meant to supplement humans not replace them.
Kadayi
Banned
http://star-wars-canon.wikia.com/wiki/OOM_pilot_battle_droid
At this juncture, I'm wondering really what your point is.
Mister Apoc
Demigod of Troll Threads
They should of just did a complete new Star Wars story away from any skywalker legacy
pramod
Banned
Wow...so that means Holdo could still be...alive? (I'm just being facetious, who gives a fuck, really.)
Actually that's a possible explanation. Still doesn't justify the whole ridiculousness of turning hyperspace into a weapon though, which destroys the continuity of all previous SW films and opens a huge can of worms for the futures. So we should be seeing hyperspace suicide weapons in everything SW from now on, right? If not, how do they explain it? How can this be a one-time thing?
Hissing Sid
Member
I agree with this but Disney couldn't resist laying out the bait for the oldies and their lovely disposable income.
Guess nobody saw the switch coming.
They wanted to have their cake and eat it too.
Paracelsus
Member
And it would bomb so hard the earth would shake after the movie airs. The people who came for the first two movies came for Han Solo, Leia and Luke. Then, at a very distant second, the "rest of cast" group of characters.
Just simply extend the Skywalker lineage a ways into the future but don't focus on it being a Skywalker story. The Old Republic stories tend to do this fairly well even though they're set in the distant past.
A new epic, heroes journey set in an indeterminate time after the original trilogy.
No carry-over of anyone from the original trilogy except maybe Luke as a force ghost if needed.
The real issue is that Disney wants to play it safe by using as many connections with the rights they bought from Lucas instead of being able to expand on it as creative and innovative writers would do.
Star Wars is a sci-fi fantasy with wizards, knights, rogues, princesses and evil empires so... just continue that idea rather than whatever it is they're doing now.
People went to the pre-trilogy on the basis of the original trilogy and they'll show up for a new epic in the hopes of something as good as the original. However, if they get burned too much they'll just lose hope.
Kadayi
Banned
That or a complete reboot from scratch (which I'd of been down with tbh).
An actual reboot could have worked. Rectify all the questionable stuff in the prequels and then lead into a new hope etc.
lefty1117
Gold Member
As to why holdo didn't reveal her plans to Poe, did he not just got a bunch of people killed by intentionally disobeying Leia? Didn't she just demote him? I mean, Holdo did basically come out and say that to him at the beginning. I thought she looked like the grownup compared to him at their first meeting and it seemed obvious to me why she wouldn't have shared her thinking. And as he continued to argue with her, and eventually mutinying against her, and of course sending Rose and Finn on an unsanctioned mission, he proved her point. He could not be trusted.
I don't know what to make of the lightspeed into the ship sacrifice. I mean, it was an awesome visual spectacle, that's for sure. One of the coolest scenes in the series. From a continuity perspective, it reminds me of the whole "why didn't the Eagles drop the ring into Mount Doom" complaint about LOTR. It can be sort of justified or explained away, but it's not as smooth an answer as could have been. Perhaps some of the books will explain it away as she was accelerating to light speed and hadn't yet entered hyperspace; and maybe why the tactic hadn't been tried on the death star was because its shields were too big, or it generated a gravity field that pulled ships out of hyperspace. There could be any number of reasons, but I do agree that in the moment it looks like a big plot hole.
That said, overall I quite liked the movie, and more so after I thought about it and then watched it a 2nd time.
I don't know what to make of the lightspeed into the ship sacrifice. I mean, it was an awesome visual spectacle, that's for sure. One of the coolest scenes in the series. From a continuity perspective, it reminds me of the whole "why didn't the Eagles drop the ring into Mount Doom" complaint about LOTR. It can be sort of justified or explained away, but it's not as smooth an answer as could have been. Perhaps some of the books will explain it away as she was accelerating to light speed and hadn't yet entered hyperspace; and maybe why the tactic hadn't been tried on the death star was because its shields were too big, or it generated a gravity field that pulled ships out of hyperspace. There could be any number of reasons, but I do agree that in the moment it looks like a big plot hole.
That said, overall I quite liked the movie, and more so after I thought about it and then watched it a 2nd time.
Inspector Q
Member
I am actually the opposite, the more I think about the movie, the more I begin to hate it. I can literally rip it apart from beginning to end. I never thought I would say this, but I am actually going to avoid watching Episode 9 in the theaters because of this movie.
Anyway, regarding the whole Poe thing, it's kind of funny in retrospect. If not for Poe and the bombers destroying the Dreadnought, the entire fleet would have been destroyed the very next scene.
If he fled like Leia asked him to then they would have hyperspaced away and the First Order would have followed them, but this time with a Dreadnought in tow. The Dreadnought has cannons capable of obliterating the Resistance Cruiser, so that would have been it for the 'good guys'. So yeah, Poe's reckless move actually saved the entire Resistance, lol. Kind of undermines the point the writers were trying to make.
As far as Holdo's hyperspace maneuver, it looks visually amazing, but that's about it. There was no emotional weight behind it because it's a character we just met earlier and was being portrayed as an arrogant witch because we were seeing her from Poe's perspective. The movie was trying to make you think she was even a traitor.
And I am not sure, but does she also somehow take out like 7 Star Destroyers as well as slice Snoke's ship in half? It kind of looked that way. Either way, it's something that just ultimately comes off as silly to me. Opens up a huge can of worms and didn't really serve any purpose other than getting the theater to look at the pretty graphics in awe.
Sorry for coming off so negative, but I kind of hate this movie, lol. Going to end my rant here. Take care.
MisterFalcon
Member
But the FO had an even bigger mega-dreadnought, Snoke's flagship, and that could not break the shields during the chase. If the Star Wars Wikia is to be believed the Snokeboat was twice the size of the normal dreadnought.
Inspector Q
Member
Yeah, not sure why Snoke's ship doesn't have that super cannon that the Dreadnought has. Go figure. Then again, Snoke doesn't even know his ship is able to track things through hyperspace, so logic doesn't really apply to the First Order, lol.
VAL0R
Banned
Whatever happened to Kylo's Knights of Ren? I thought after criticisms of Kylo being whiny and humiliated by new force user Rey in TFA, they would have to establish him as a powerful and fearless leader who only stumbled in a moment of weakness but was gaining mastery of his training and growing in power. (Rian did do this somewhat through Snoke's narration, but seeing it would have been more convincing.) How much cooler would TLJ instantly become if the film opened with the Knights of Ren doing some insane, dominating, coordinated assault on a rebel outpost, with all of their force sensitive(?) abilities?
Instead we get bombers that fly 4 miles an hour in an age of faster than light travel. Missed opportunity to sell a million little toys, Disney.
:no_upscale()/cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_image/image/54377759/kylos_crew.0.0.jpg)
Instead we get bombers that fly 4 miles an hour in an age of faster than light travel. Missed opportunity to sell a million little toys, Disney.
Grinchy
Banned
Another thing I didn't really get about the bomber mission "failure" being Poe's fault is that he was having trouble taking out the the last turret. He was told to abort and come back because that one turret was enough of a threat to end the mission.
He ends up taking it out and it appeared to have no effect whatsoever as every single bomber was taken out anyway. How would things have gone any differently if he was just able to take out every turret in one swoop? That was obviously a shitty plan to begin with.
He ends up taking it out and it appeared to have no effect whatsoever as every single bomber was taken out anyway. How would things have gone any differently if he was just able to take out every turret in one swoop? That was obviously a shitty plan to begin with.
MisterFalcon
Member
Better not to think too much about these things. Why is there a trench on the Death Star ? And why are there turrets in that trench and not just some form of barriers to stop anyone from flying in ?
Grinchy
Banned
Sure, but the story was written to reflect how they discovered a weakness and then exploited it successfully.
In this movie, they created a battle plan that never would have worked and then blamed the person who carried it out as if the plan wasn't proven to be flawed from the beginning.
It would be like Luke flying in and shooting the spot that was supposed to blow up the Death Star, but then they realize they were wrong about it all along, and when he gets back, he's blamed for all the lives lost.
tkscz
Member
All the rebel plans in the movie were bad. The bombing mission had obvious slow bombing ships, so slow in fact that I'm surprised they even decided to use them. It would've been smarter to use the much faster moving and harder to hit X-wings than big bulky slow and easy to target bombing ships.
As I said before, what was keeping the imperials from just detecting the other ships slowly (relatively) traveling to an off planet? They can now track ships through warp speed, how is it they don't have a radar system that tells them when other ships are moving in the area? Don't tell me their too small, earlier in the film, they detected X-wings flying about and those were even smaller.
The subplot plan at least had the fewest holes in it, but still hinged on them finding one person and convincing said person into hacking for them, which didn't work in the end. For fuck's sake, they didn't even try to blend in.
Alter_Fridge
Member
Agreed with all this. All the plot devices are just so contrived and full of logic holes, you can't help but get more and more angry/disappointed at what a terrible job the writers did the more you think about it.
MadOdorMachine
No additional functions
There are a lot of problems with that logic. First of all, she did the exact same thing as Poe. How many people did she get killed? Probably a lot more than Poe. At least his actions stopped further death whereas Holdo just bought them time. I mean, the exact same thing was repeated a few minutes later with Finn and Luke. In addition, until the plan was revealed it looked like Holdo was doing nothing. At least Poe was trying to do something and not just wait to die. You could argue that Poe disobeyed orders, but even Holdo acknowledges this and that she likes him for it when Leia woke up from her coma. Furthermore, I'm pretty sure Leia herself explains to Poe that Holdo knew the plan before Leia went into the coma. It could be implied that this is the reason she didn't want Poe to engage in battle with the dreadnought. So I was left with the impression they had to have decided to hold the information from Poe before the movie even started. Do you see the problem? They withheld this information from Poe before anyone even appeared on screen and then gave him a new personality to match the message they wanted to make. This isn't even counting what they did with Finn in the process. When you think about the logic of the decisions made in this movie, they make no sense and served absolutely no purpose to the story. For me it made Holdo's supposed sacrifice to be hypocritical, contradictory and unnecessary.
MadOdorMachine
No additional functions
This was a message that was repeated again and again in the movie. Poe took out the turrets and one bomber was taken out by a tie fighter which then caused a chain reaction for every other bomber except one to explode. They made what Poe did look meaningless and instead focused on Rose's sister. There were so many times when you thought something big was going to happen only to have someone or something else come out of nowhere and take the credit. It happened so many times that half way through the movie I just wanted it to end. The whole movie was one giant troll. I still can't believe Disney approved this.
Shouta
Member
They had a cloak protecting them from detection as they escaped the cruiser. They were detected after Benicio's character sold Finn and Rose out and gave The First Order the codes to be able to see through that, as I recall anyway. That's why Finn was super mad at him and how Benicio was able to weasel his way out of the situation.
CD'S BAR
Member
but rose survived.
VAL0R
Banned
Good point.
Alter_Fridge
Member
It certainly did, yet Hollywood script writers can't even recognise it
Unbelievable
Finn and Rose survived doe and Ackbar died
LeSigh
I was thinking more of Snoke the Joke, Admiral Scungilli, and Reflective Armor Barbie.
SEE: Boba Fett.
Whatever happened to Kylo's Knights of Ren? I thought after criticisms of Kylo being whiny and humiliated by new force user Rey in TFA, they would have to establish him as a powerful and fearless leader who only stumbled in a moment of weakness but was gaining mastery of his training and growing in power. (Rian did do this somewhat through Snoke's narration, but seeing it would have been more convincing.) How much cooler would TLJ instantly become if the film opened with the Knights of Ren doing some insane, dominating, coordinated assault on a rebel outpost, with all of their force sensitive(?) abilities?
Instead we get bombers that fly 4 miles an hour in an age of faster than light travel. Missed opportunity to sell a million little toys, Disney.
Dude, didn't you get the memo? Those helmets are not cool anymore
I enjoyed the film for what it was, but it definitely has some serious issues and is down there with the prequel trilogy.
I've seen a lot of people talking about the kamikaze hyperspace, and oddly enough this is one thing I don't have a major issue with (outside of being OP and the fact that it hasn't ever been abused of thought of before). But we know from Episode IV that without the proper calculations to warp through space, you're liable to crash as explained by Han, so in my mind the whole manoeuvre was completed by intentionally jumping with improper hyperspace calculations which resulted in the collisions through the other ships and eventual disintegration of the ship making the jump.
I'm intrigued as to how everything will come together in episode IX and how some of the terrible decisions that were made in VII will be handled, but I'm not hyped for the film like I was for VIII after watching VII.
I've seen a lot of people talking about the kamikaze hyperspace, and oddly enough this is one thing I don't have a major issue with (outside of being OP and the fact that it hasn't ever been abused of thought of before). But we know from Episode IV that without the proper calculations to warp through space, you're liable to crash as explained by Han, so in my mind the whole manoeuvre was completed by intentionally jumping with improper hyperspace calculations which resulted in the collisions through the other ships and eventual disintegration of the ship making the jump.
I'm intrigued as to how everything will come together in episode IX and how some of the terrible decisions that were made in VII will be handled, but I'm not hyped for the film like I was for VIII after watching VII.
Ovek
7Member7
The bomber sequence is fucking terrible, why the fuck couldnt they just have been 40+ year old Y-Wings that needed fighter cover because they were so old? It would have been a nice nod to the original trilogy and Star Wars Rebels. Shit they could have been painted gold to homage the first trench run if they really wanted to get fan wankery but nooooooo. Instead we got a director that took Lucass WW2 in space far to fucking literally.
Did the sequence ruin the film? No the rest of the film managed that but it does annoy the living shit out of me.
Did the sequence ruin the film? No the rest of the film managed that but it does annoy the living shit out of me.
GC_DALBEN
Member
Thats how i feel, i was excited for the TLJ but how they managed luke death (a hero to a lot of ppl who love movies), the sequence with Finn and Rose (at least 20 minutes of garbage, Rose is one of the worst characters of this franchise), snoke death(really?) and a lot of missplaced jokes reduced my hype for the next movie, it was a "6" movie.
I hope you guys understand, still working on my english
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Kadayi
Banned
Probably dropping them because seemingly actual reboot merch isn't selling for shit. Vid below is a guy touring the star wars toy sections of various stores back in August. Pretty much everything is clearance.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4hNAji3lIGE
It does go on a little bit, but I think he has some pretty valid criticisms. A lot of the merch just seems poorly conceived. I mean jeez whose buying all these half pint Storm Troopers? Let alone a Millenium Falcon drone. Star Wars Ep 7 - 9: The quest for more Landfill
Hissing Sid
Member
I think I read somewhere that demand from retailers for Star Wars merchandise before Xmas was down. Dont know if that can be put at the doorstep of TLJ specifically because the ramp up for getting the stuff into the shops will have happened before the film was even out.
I know Lego had a slight downturn in demand for their Star Wars lines this year but once again I dont think that had anything to do with the new film/films.
The market is probably just over-saturated with Star Wars toys.
Edit:
Plus I think theyre just killing it with the ridiculous marketing push on steroids. I mean seriously, I love the Star Wars theme tune (Although I think Williams Superman theme is better, yeah thats right, bite me), but even I was finding it a bit much hearing it blurting out of the tv every two seconds trying to sell me shitty plastic sabres (Oops sorry, I meant to say shitty plastic laser swords, obviously), or razor blades.
Its gotten to the point now, that when I hear the first few notes of the Main Theme my eyes start rolling back into my head and my brain starts running out of my ears like a thin, grey gruel.
God knows what its doing to the common folk.
I know Lego had a slight downturn in demand for their Star Wars lines this year but once again I dont think that had anything to do with the new film/films.
The market is probably just over-saturated with Star Wars toys.
Edit:
Plus I think theyre just killing it with the ridiculous marketing push on steroids. I mean seriously, I love the Star Wars theme tune (Although I think Williams Superman theme is better, yeah thats right, bite me), but even I was finding it a bit much hearing it blurting out of the tv every two seconds trying to sell me shitty plastic sabres (Oops sorry, I meant to say shitty plastic laser swords, obviously), or razor blades.
Its gotten to the point now, that when I hear the first few notes of the Main Theme my eyes start rolling back into my head and my brain starts running out of my ears like a thin, grey gruel.
God knows what its doing to the common folk.
Mind your spelling please
llien
Member
Death Star's vulnerability was somewhat addressed in Rogue One: one of its designers made it vulnerable on purpose (sabotage).
Jesus Christ, I can't stop laughing at this. Thanks for making my day, sir.
I couldn't agree more with your points.
gioGAF
Member
This is so spot on. Most of the problems with this film are because it shits on previous canon. OT Luke is determined, courageous and optimistic. In TLJ, he is a quitter, a coward and pessimistic.
I will go to the ends of the galaxy to save my corrupted father because I sensed some good in him vs. I will consider murdering my nephew in his sleep because I sensed some darkness in him. Seriously? WTF! Think about how ABSURD that sequence is. Would you point a loaded gun at an underage relative while they are asleep because of "reasons"?
While I enjoyed the light speed ramming sequence, it seriously undermines the conflict of most of the previous movies. Why wouldn't the rebels just ram every single compromised ship into enemy ships/bases at light speed if that is such a destructive option? It is certainly better than just having them blown up in space.
TGO
Hype Train conductor. Works harder than it steams.
Because other then upsetting man babies "in their eyes" the person in charge doesn't think they're destroying anything, they think they are fixing stuff which was wrong.
I enjoyed TFA and Rogue One even if Reys ability to use the force was questionable but we was gonna get answers or so they hinted. But EP8 says she don't need a reason, she knows the force already unlike every other Jedi including Anakin Skywalker, hell the little boy at the end is more knowledgeable in the force then even Ani was.
And say people are being just sexist because Rey is female but EP7 was always going to have a female lead and people do actually like Rey.
But we are 2 films in and so far we know nothing. Luke had a story and motivation and then a twist which tied him to Vader.
Rey just wanted to help and is no one.
ThatStupidLion
Member
pramod
Banned
If you listen to people who say TLJ is the best SW movie, they all talk about the great character "arcs". But halfway through the movie they've already killed my interest in most of these characters. I no longer care what happens to them. They turned Finn and Rose into useless comic relief. Then they decided to make Rey a "nobody", ok fine, so why should we still be interested in her character? Because she's a girl? Just because someone has force powers doesn't make them interesting.
The impression i get from those that like these films is that they see more potential in the characters, whether they actually develop or not. Same with the themes in the movies.
They want to see that shit explored, even though right now they aren't.
For those that criticize the movies, we've gone through 2 movies now (two thirds of the way done) and there's still little to nothing to make these characters worthwhile. There is very little growth in the characters (and what growth is shown, it's not real growth but "just is" like Rey becoming a jedi master) and ones like Finn basically goes from co-star to side-character. He's not doing anything important anymore in the story.
And for those who like the movie, they don't care about these details, and just accept everything for what it is.
So to not like it, to them, you're hating on the potential that could come out of this new trilogy... and i don't think they realize that it's already 2/3rds over. They really like the ideas behind everything without caring of what's actually going on.
EverydayBeast
thinks Halo Infinite is a new graphical benchmark
I definitely want to see the Last Jedi one or two more times before commenting in here, anyone else in the same boat?
CD'S BAR
Member
you broke your own rule. it's too late for you now.
i do want to see it again myself.
IISANDERII
Member
Its way too long for another viewing, in theatres anyway. And it was definitely not interesting or entertaining enough for me to sit through again for a long while. Ill give it another go when it comes to Netflix.
gioGAF
Member
I saw it twice. The first time I felt a little overwhelmed by everything that was going on. The second time, I got to focus. Some parts work and are fun. Cando Bight was horrible the first time and even worse the second time.
For me, the only truly irrecoverable error is how Luke is handled. What a shit way to go out for one of the most iconic characters in film. It made me appreciate TFA more though, Han got to be Han again and got to go out in a manner befitting of his character and importance to this franchise.
Rian Johnson shit on Luke so he could be different. That can never be taken away :'-(
RJ doesn't respect Star Wars lore or canon. He's more interested in his own shit (which is nowhere near as clever as people are giving him credit for). This would have been okay if he did it to his own characters on his own trilogy.
For me, the only truly irrecoverable error is how Luke is handled. What a shit way to go out for one of the most iconic characters in film. It made me appreciate TFA more though, Han got to be Han again and got to go out in a manner befitting of his character and importance to this franchise.
Rian Johnson shit on Luke so he could be different. That can never be taken away :'-(
RJ doesn't respect Star Wars lore or canon. He's more interested in his own shit (which is nowhere near as clever as people are giving him credit for). This would have been okay if he did it to his own characters on his own trilogy.