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[pn18]

Also, slapping a solar panel on the roof can supply all the power you need for all those things during the daytime (and charge the batteries if the car is parked).

But it also adds a bit of weight (reduces the max distance minimal) and costs about 4-5k extra. And unfortunately the size of the solar panel would not create enough energy to cool down a car. To reload you iPod yes, to cool the car no.

 

[Javaman]

one of the saddest things I read as of late is that the US government mandated that all cars produced for the US by 2020 must meet at the minimum of 35mpg.... 2020... thats 12 years from now. I understand research and development time, but seriously? I've got a friend who drives a 1962 VW. Its modified and can beat most average cars in a dead race and STILL gets 38mpg on average. The car is 46 years old. If we could do it then, why cant we do it now? I understand the inclusion of smog and emission controls, but did we really sacrifice THAT much by adding some O2 sensors?

You're forgetting safety features like crumple zones and air bags, power windows/doors/steering, antilock brakes and traction control and thousands of other odd bits and parts that are now in cars that weren't 40+ years ago. How much does his car weigh compared to newer ones? A lot less and there are also fewer vampirish systems in his car eating up produced HP.

 

[speculawyer]

That's probably the most sense I've seen someone make.

Home based solar photovoltaics also makes great sense in all sunny hot areas for the same reason . . . they make the most power when it is needed most . . . on hot sunny days when everyone and their brother turns on the AC to cool the house down. Of course other power sources are also needed since it doesn't work well at night , solar is a great source to the mix of power for the grid.

And here is another kicker . . . home-based solar power is delivered straight to the residential & business areas where it is needed. Thus, there are huge savings since you don't need hundreds of miles of high-voltage lines to carry the power for many miles from a far away power plant to these populated areas. The efficiency is much greater too since power is lost as it travels along the power lines. So . . . even though solar is clearly still more costly than other energy sources . . . one needs to take into account the facts that:
1) It generates the most power when it is most needed.
2) It generates the power directly where it is needed.
3) It generates absolutely no pollution(mercury & sulfur from coal), greenhouse gases (any fossil fuel), radioactive waste (nukes), low-level radioactive ash (coal), etc.

 

[Tarazet]

I'd like to see something in between the Volt and the Aptera . . . Something with the Aptera monocoque design with super-low drag coefficient but a little more like a normal car with four wheels.

Well here's the thing. The Aptera has three wheels, which means California classifies it as a motorcycle, but without needing the endorsement on your license. It also means you can go into the diamond lane. In my case, that means I get to drive across the Bay Bridge, which is normally a $4 toll, for free and also skip the dreaded metering lights as well as the long wait at the toll plaza. That's incredible.

 

[PrivateWHudson]

It is also 'free'(=wasted) when not needed and not used. This is why the well-to-wheel efficiency of electrics is much better than gas cars. There is very little power wasted in an electric car. If you manage to drive drive your Volt on battery-only power all year long, it only costs about $1/day to charge up.

If you drive 40 miles per day, five times per week (work week), 52 weeks a year, that is 10,400 miles per year. If you car gets 30 mpg (a respectable number) and you pay $5/gallon (which you will in a couple years most likely), than is $1733 per year in gas. So, you could save $1400 in gas alone each year . . . it won't take too long to make up that increased cost of the car. 7 years if it is a $10,000 premium. But then again, electricity prices will go up too but not as fast since they are based more on coal which is in great supply (although prices have gone up a lot due to the cost of gas-powered equipment used to dig it up & transport it). There are other savings in electric vehicles too since they have far fewer moving parts and thus require less maintenance & repairs.

Yeah. I wasn't arguing the overall efficiency, just saying that it's something to take into consideration when talking range.

Also, I've heard rumblings about the deregulation of electric companies and the prices could spike 200%. $0.15/kwh to $0.45/kwh. That would jack it to $3 a day. At 30mpg, $5/gallon a 40 mile work day drive is still $7 a day. Good, but $1000 a year isn't enough to justify a new car at a premium price.

And so the gas motor kicks in and fires up for a few minutes .. . so what? But the point is definitely valid on pure electrics . . . hence the Tesla having a massive battery pack and the Aptera being super-efficient. The Th!nk electric could have this problem though.

Yeah....I was thinking about the Th!nk. If I entertain the thought of an electric car, it would have to be an inexpensive A-B car. Unless they start talking SUV's or Minivan's to replace the family car. Flashy sports cars or ridiculously priced one seater concept cars aren't on the table for people feeling the energy crunch.

 

[speculawyer]

But it also adds a bit of weight (reduces the max distance minimal) and costs about 4-5k extra. And unfortunately the size of the solar panel would not create enough energy to cool down a car. To reload you iPod yes, to cool the car no.

You are over estimating the cost and understating the power.

You can provide full power for a house with a $22K photo voltaic system. I know this . . . I built one. (It generates more power than it needed during the day and put it on the grid and took power from the grid at night . . . after averaging everything it out, it supplied all the power needed for the house.)

 

[speculawyer]

Also, I've heard rumblings about the deregulation of electric companies and the prices could spike 200%. $0.15/kwh to $0.45/kwh. That would jack it to $3 a day. At 30mpg, $5/gallon a 40 mile work day drive is still $7 a day. Good, but $1000 a year isn't enough to justify a new car at a premium price.

That is definitely an issue. . . . of course rising electricity prices will make solar power all that much more cost effective.

A big think that could mitigate electricity costs for electric cars is time-dependent metering . . . during the day everyone wants power . . . at night, electricity plants are not nearly needed and practically sit idle. A lot of money could be saved if this was evened out more. This can be done by charging more for electricity during the day and less at night. Thus, you could tell your car to only charge itself when rates are low such that night-time electric car charging would be much cheaper than normal daytime electric power usage. In fact . . . you could even sell power back to the grid during the day from your car for a higher price than you sucked it off the grid at night. You car becomes part of the power grid. Google is all over this idea.

 

[AMUSIX]

Yes, I did look at the others on the list and I respect Tesla and others for their ingenuity and forward thinking, but from a business standpoint, I think if they focused more to the likes of Th!nk et al, they'd garner more money than selling a few 100k supercars.

As someone who has bought a Tesla, I'm throwing in my two cents here. Tesla (the company) is really about making the electric car both desireable and viable. They've created the Roadster to be the sexy flagship of the line, something people will want, but not really buy (either because of the limitations or the price).

The Roadster does sell at a high price, but that $100k goes towards furthering the company's tech and financial base. They have been very clear that the Roadster isn't the only car they're developing. They've repeatedly said that their next vehicle will be a $60k high-end sedan, which will be followed by a $30k family car. This 'start high, work down' technique both helps their funding and creates a desireability for the brand and the electric car tech. I'm not sure if they would have made more money going the Th!nk route. Even if they had developed their $30k family car first, they would have had to sell three times as many to a market that would need to be convinced to buy a basic looking car with all the limitations of an electric.

I absolutely agree with their direction (which is why I bought one) and see my payment more as an investment in electric car tech than anything else.

 

[speculawyer]

As someone who has bought a Tesla, .

Damn you. Can I test drive it?

Are you gonna buy a home photovoltaic system to charge it up to go complete green? (Or do you already have one?) I love the concept of a 125mph sports car that burns absolutely no gas . . . and no coal, natural gas, or uranium either.

Have they given you a delivery date? (or estimate?)

 

[PrivateWHudson]

That is definitely an issue. . . . of course rising electricity prices will make solar power all that much more cost effective.

A big think that could mitigate electricity costs for electric cars is time-dependent metering . . . during the day everyone wants power . . . at night, electricity plants are not nearly needed and practically sit idle. A lot of money could be saved if this was evened out more. This can be done by charging more for electricity during the day and less at night. Thus, you could tell your car to only charge itself when rates are low such that night-time electric car charging would be much cheaper than normal daytime electric power usage. In fact . . . you could even sell power back to the grid during the day from your car for a higher price than you sucked it off the grid at night. You car becomes part of the power grid. Google is all over this idea.

They used to do this. Everyone did their laundry and ran their AC at night. For some reason or another the power companies hate it. My neighbor had two meters...one for day, and one for night and had to be grandfathered in to keep that deal with the Electric Company. They really pushed hard to get her to "catch up with the times" and she will have to if one of the meters ever breaks.

 

[pn18]

You are over estimating the cost and understating the power.

You can provide full power for a house with a $22K photo voltaic system. I know this . . . I built one. (It generates more power than it needed during the day and put it on the grid and took power from the grid at night . . . after averaging everything it out, it supplied all the power needed for the house.)

But houses are static, built to be 12+ hours in the sun. Cars are not so static, so imagine you're driving through a city in the summer. It's freaking hot, but you can't activate the AC because your constantly driving through shadows and otherwise the maximum distance of your car drops from 50 to 30 or even less kilometres.

 

[speculawyer]

any pix of the new volt design? btw $40k for the car seems to defeat the purpose in that the ppl who need something like that most cant afford it.

They will probably unveil it in the coming months. There have been spy shots of it covered in camo tape.

Damn . . . that camo tape does a good job in preventing one from getting a real feeling for its look.

 

[speculawyer]

They used to do this. Everyone did their laundry and ran their AC at night. For some reason or another the power companies hate it. My neighbor had two meters...one for day, and one for night and had to be grandfathered in to keep that deal with the Electric Company. They really pushed hard to get her to "catch up with the times" and she will have to if one of the meters ever breaks.

Back to the future! New digital & wireless readable meters provide for this capabilitiy and PGE (my power co) is adopting it.

 

[speculawyer]

But houses are static, built to be 12+ hours in the sun. Cars are not so static, so imagine you're driving through a city in the summer. It's freaking hot, but you can't activate the AC because your constantly driving through shadows and otherwise the maximum distance of your car drops from 50 to 30 or even less kilometres.

You are not an engineer are you? The AC wouldn't ONLY operate from the solar panel. The panels generate power as long as they get some light (even in the shade) and the power goes to the battery the AC is powered off the battery. Even if you are driving in mixed sun & shadows, you generate power.

Just think of it as averaging out . . . when you really need AC (hot sunny days), you'll be generating power to compensate for it.

 

[Goldrusher]

the daily commutes of most Americans, which is around 33 miles (53 km).

What?
Seriously, all the talk that Americans "need" their cars... for 33 miles ? That's it ? To and from work only 33 miles ?
Even if it's only to work, that's not that much.

:lol

Tens of thousands of people who work in Brussels or Paris drive over 60 miles TO work. Then 60 miles back.
Gas costs over 9.30 euro per gallon. If you want it converted using the current exchange rates (not really fair anymore, but for fun) that's 14.40 US dollar. Per gallon.

Anyway, yay for electric cars. But where will all that electricity come from... That's probably the biggest worry of the automobile industry. What if suddenly everyone has an electric car ? That requires alot of electricity.

 

[sh4mike]

Some of you don't understand how the Volt/next-gen Prius will work.

1) You plug-in the vehicle at home using a standard plug every night. You also need to fill-up the gas tank as usual.
2) The vehicle can run 100% off the batteries up to 40 miles at a normal speed limit (around 70).
3) Once the battery life declines, the gas motor kicks in to recharge the battery and power the vehicle. Milage should be 40/50+mpg in this mode. Overall range should be 400+ miles.

The plug-in Prius should retail for $30-40K.

 

[speculawyer]

What?
Seriously, all the talk that Americans "need" their cars... for 33 miles ? That's it ? To and from work only 33 miles ?
Even if it's only to work, that's not that much.
:lol
Tens of thousands of people who work in Brussels or Paris drive over 60 miles TO work. Then 60 miles back.
Gas costs over 9.30 euro per gallon. If you want it converted using the current exchange rates (not really fair anymore, but for fun) that's 14.40 US dollar. Per gallon..

I find that rather hard to believe. You are saying there are tens of thousands of people driving 30,000 miles per years (120/day * 5 days/week * 50workweeks/year) . . . which costs $14,000 is gas alone. Not to mention the cost of the car you rapidly wearing out at 30,000 miles per year!?!?! I believe the number is much smaller than that.

And yes, there are many Americans that alos drive too far on their commutes too.

Anyway, yay for electric cars. But where will all that electricity come from... That's probably the biggest worry of the automobile industry. What if suddenly everyone has an electric car ? That requires alot of electricity.

It is really not a problem . . . if people power up at night when there is little other electricity usage, there really won't be much of a change required to the electricity infrastructure. The energy source for the electricity is mostly coal but also hydroelectric, solar, nuclear, natural gas, etc. Yes, burning coal causes pollution . . . but the added pollution of electricity generated from coal is less than the pollution of a less efficient gas car.

 

[AMUSIX]

Are you gonna buy a home photovoltaic system to charge it up to go complete green?

Not at first. We're going to be remodelling the house in the coming years. When we do that, I'm looking at putting solar panels in for just the car. Until then, I'm still working off the power of the atom, so at least I'm off the fossil-fuel grid.

Seriously, all the talk that Americans "need" their cars... for 33 miles ? That's it ? To and from work only 33 miles ?

The problem isn't commuting, it's everything else. Most American cities were very poorly designed, and have no real functional mass-transit system. Heck, in some cases (San Francisco) the mass transit system was ripped out. Because of this, and because of the separation between residential and commercial areas, and because of the sprawling expanse of the suburb, many places in the US cannot be efficiently navigated without a car. It sucks...it truly does, but until Disney takes over and Monorails get put in everywhere, we're stuck with it.

 

[MickeyKnox]

Some of you don't understand how the Volt/next-gen Prius will work.

1) You plug-in the vehicle at home using a standard plug every night. You also need to fill-up the gas tank as usual.
2) The vehicle can run 100% off the batteries up to 40 miles at a normal speed limit (around 70).
3) Once the battery life declines, the gas motor kicks in to recharge the battery and power the vehicle. Milage should be 40/50+mpg in this mode. Overall range should be 400+ miles.

The plug-in Prius should retail for $30-40K.

What the estimated drain on your meter at home?

Cause it would be fucking pointless to save money on gas only to have your electricity bill jump up by a near equal amount each month. Certainly not for environmental reasons.

 

[rollingstart]

What the estimated drain on your meter at home?

Cause it would be fucking pointless to save money on gas only to have your electricity bill jump up by a near equal amount each month. Certainly not for environmental reasons.

I wonder why they can't also just have solar panels at the top of the car to soak up some sun as you drive. Or how about having mini turbines that are spun by the win passing through parts of the car to generate energy. Or even putting water on top of the engine to boil as you are driving to create steam powered also!

They really need to figure something out that won't just change the problem, but fix it.

 

[speculawyer]

I absolutely agree with their direction (which is why I bought one) and see my payment more as an investment in electric car tech than anything else.

That is the way I viewed the photovoltaic system I put on my earlier house and the Ford Escape Hybrid I bought . . . investments into helping the technology progress.

Actually, after the nice subsidy from the City, the photovoltaic system actually would pay for itself rather quickly. It is a real cool feeling to watch your electric meter spin backwards. I'm looking forward to building another system soon.

 

[Davedough]

That is the way I viewed the photovoltaic system I put on my earlier house and the Ford Escape Hybrid I bought . . . investments into helping the technology progress.

Actually, after the nice subsidy from the City, the photovoltaic system actually would pay for itself rather quickly. It is a real cool feeling to watch your electric meter spin backwards. I'm looking forward to building another system soon.

Do expand. What is this voodoo you speak of?

 

[speculawyer]

What the estimated drain on your meter at home?

Cause it would be fucking pointless to save money on gas only to have your electricity bill jump up by a near equal amount each month. Certainly not for environmental reasons.

This has been addressed in various posts. It depends on your local electricity rates but even in California with some of the highest rates in the country, it costs waaay less to fill up per mile on electricity than it does on gasoline. It is the costs of the batteries that are the most difficult part of electric cars.

From Tesla Motors:
Electrical Cost to Charge the Batteries
With your electrical company's incentive pricing factored in, it will cost you roughly 1 cent per mile to drive the Tesla Roadster.**
** Since most car owners recharge at night, this calculation uses off-peak charging rates with a time-of-use meter. To calculate your exact cost-per-mile, contact your local electricity provider.
http://www.teslamotors.com/efficiency/charging_and_batteries.php

Compare that to a gas car that gets 30mpg with $4/gallon gas= 13 cents per mile.

Even if you double that to 2 cents per mile with electric, it is MUCH cheaper than the 13 cents/mile from gas. That Aptera . . . man it is almost free to drive compared to gas cars! Of course it looks wild.

 

[speculawyer]

Do expand. What is this voodoo you speak of?

For a small house, you can generate about all your electricity power needs with a $22,000 PV system (my house had natural gas heat, natural gas hot water heat, and natural gas dryer). The city paid 1/2 the cost (I still have a PDF of the $11K check they cut me somewhere.) For $11K, I pretty much gave that house all the power it would need for the next 25 to 30 years (that's how long the system is supposed to be able to operate).

Considering the incentives from the state & feds . . . people in sunny areas really should drop $11 to $15K. In Germany where they don't have nearly as much power, tons of houses are covered with PVs due to a generous subsidy.

 

[speculawyer]

double-post

 

[Davedough]

For a small house, you can generate about all your electricity power needs with a $22,000 PV system (my house had natural gas heat, natural gas hot water heat, and natural gas dryer). The city paid 1/2 the cost (I still have a PDF of the $11K check they cut me somewhere.) For $11K, I pretty much gave that house all the power it would need for the next 25 to 30 years (that's how long the system is supposed to be able to operate).

Considering the incentives from the state & feds . . . people in sunny areas really should drop $11 to $15K. In Germany where they don't have nearly as much power, tons of houses are covered with PVs due to a generous subsidy.

Thats actually pretty cool. I'm going to research that. I live in Arizona. It doesn't get much sunnier than here.

 

[speculawyer]

Well here's the thing. The Aptera has three wheels, which means California classifies it as a motorcycle, but without needing the endorsement on your license. It also means you can go into the diamond lane. In my case, that means I get to drive across the Bay Bridge, which is normally a $4 toll, for free and also skip the dreaded metering lights as well as the long wait at the toll plaza. That's incredible.

The Aptera is pretty funky . . . it's biggest advantage seems to be its bigest drawback . . . the funky hyper-efficient spaceship-like design. I think the look of that car will scare off a lot of people.

It is kinda sad to think that we all drive these boxy inefficient vehicles that all waste a ton of gas pushing air out of the way because that is the way we 'think' cars 'should' look. Cars actually should all look like the Aptera since it is extremely efficient. As the years progress, I think cars will look more and more like the Aptera.

GM should buy Aptera and start cranking them out now.

 

[PrivateWHudson]

For a small house, you can generate about all your electricity power needs with a $22,000 PV system (my house had natural gas heat, natural gas hot water heat, and natural gas dryer). The city paid 1/2 the cost (I still have a PDF of the $11K check they cut me somewhere.) For $11K, I pretty much gave that house all the power it would need for the next 25 to 30 years (that's how long the system is supposed to be able to operate).

Considering the incentives from the state & feds . . . people in sunny areas really should drop $11 to $15K. In Germany where they don't have nearly as much power, tons of houses are covered with PVs due to a generous subsidy.

You say had NG heat, water and dryer, does that mean that you converted those to electric and still get enough from the PV system, or that you still use NG for those and the system provides enough power for everything else?

Also, do you have a lot of land? I guess what I'm asking is... did you have to put a tracker out in a clearing to get the power that you need/were you lucky enough for your roof to be oriented correctly to have a stationary system OR is the technology far enough along that you can slap some panels on any roof regardless of orientation?

Was it easy to find the programs you used to subsidize the purchase? I'm having a hell of a time finding any info for my area...it may just be that there are no incentives for my area.

 

[speculawyer]

You say had NG heat, water and dryer, does that mean that you converted those to electric and still get enough from the PV system, or that you still use NG for those and the system provides enough power for everything else?.

I say 'had' because I don't own that house anymore. The house still uses NG for all those things (NG is much more efficient for any heating task.) It always had natural gas heat & hot water . . . I did get a NG dryer since they are more efficient.

Also, do you have a lot of land? I guess what I'm asking is... did you have to put a tracker out in a clearing to get the power that you need/were you lucky enough for your roof to be oriented correctly to have a stationary system OR is the technology far enough along that you can slap some panels on any roof regardless of orientation?

No, this was a small house on a small lot (50' x 100' lot). I just put the panels flat on a roof that was vaguely southern facing. Tracking systems are neat but that is over engineering. Provided you are not shaded by trees, if you put up a bunch of panels on your average house in a sunny area, you can get more than enough power just from your roof area.

Was it easy to find the programs you used to subsidize the purchase? I'm having a hell of a time finding any info for my area...it may just be that there are no incentives for my area.

Here is the site that lists all the incentives for all over the USA.
http://www.dsireusa.org/
I was lucky in that city paid 50% of the cost . . . very generous. The state of California has a pretty good rebate.

And if anyone wants . . . I can email you my design although that was a few years ago and I'm sure the equipment has changed. It was simple grid-tied system with a Sunny Boy inverter.

 

[FightyF]

GM should buy Aptera and start cranking them out now.

Who knows if they would decide to simply sit on the technology?

The way I see it, since the government is so keen on giving Oil Companies subsidies...why not give it to these companies that have created these real working electric cars? I think it was Aptera that was looking at an investment of $40 million to manufacture these in droves. If Oil Companies can get tens of millions of tax payer dollars, I don't see why these companies can't.

 

[PrivateWHudson]

Here is the site that lists all the incentives for all over the USA.
http://www.dsireusa.org/
I was lucky in that city paid 50% of the cost . . . very generous. The state of California has a pretty good rebate.

And if anyone wants . . . I can email you my design although that was a few years ago and I'm sure the equipment has changed. It was simple grid-tied system with a Sunny Boy inverter.

Great link...Thanks. I don't even have a portion of the money needed (need to save up for oil heat this winter), but I'd love to slap some panels on my roof someday. I have a century home, so it would probably go hand in hand with a complete upgrade of my patch work electrical system and a retrofit of a high velocity A/C system (window units really suck).

 

[golem]

the fisker is somewhat interesting, though the looks dont sit that well with me.

what i would really want to commute with is somethign like the A1 Metroprojeckt concept

http://www.motortrend.com/features/..._audi_metroproject_concept_preview/index.html

The Audi A1 Metroproject Quattro is said to be a hybrid, with a 1.4-liter TFSI engine that produces around 150 horsepower for the front wheels, while a 41 horsepower electric motor is mounted on the rear axle - good for 7.8 second 0 to 60 mph runs and a top speed of just over 124 mph.

 

[Furoba]

Mitsubishi has the Colt i MiEV coming up in 2009. About 100-130km cruising range, with airconditioning or heater on.

http://techon.nikkeibp.co.jp/english/NEWS_EN/20080124/146156/

Sumitomo Electric made the first superconducting motor for electric cars, but it'll take some time before it'll be actually commercialized.

 

[Wendo]

I just thought about this today...

...how are you supposed to plug in your car if you live in an apartment complex?
I mean, I guess new complexes might have charging stations built into their parking lots/garages and just add that to your rent, but I don't know how that would work nowadays.

I guess you could get a super long ass extension cord, but it'd sure suck to wake up and get ready to go to work to find that someone tripped over it during the night, and your car is dead.

 

[Nicodimas]

Sorry how about a efficent truck plz. K thx

 

[speculawyer]

Sorry how about a efficent truck plz. K thx

I think I'll need to add this to the OP . .

Another step towards exploding the perception that electric vehicles will never have the grunt, range or practicality of their oil guzzling, high-emission counterparts has been taken in California with a record charging time demonstrated for the all-electric Phoenix SUT (Sport Utility Truck). The milestone demonstration by AeroVironment saw the 35kWh (kilowatt-hour) battery pack developed for use with the Phoenix fully-charged in less than ten minutes—enough to power the five-seat utility for 100 miles.

Phoenix Motorcars recently showcased the zero-emission, 4-door SUT at the Inland Empire Auto Show in Ontario. Capable of reaching 95mph, the SUT can travel at freeway speeds even with five passengers and a full payload. It has a range of up to 130 miles and plans are already underway for an expansion pack which will extend this to 250 miles. The Phoenix is powered by a UQM Technologies motor that generates 480 foot-pounds of torque and accelerates from 0 to 60 m.p.h. in 10 seconds. The vehicle also exceeds all specifications for a Type III Zero Emission Vehicle—and it's even got air-conditioning.

The 35kWh NanoSafe battery pack developed by Altairnano has a life of approximately 12 years or 250,000 miles and in addition to the ten-minute off-board charging capabilities, it can be recharged on-board (though it takes 6 hours) from a 220V plug-in. Test conducted by AeroVironment engineers also showed that the battery packs can sustain several cycles per day of ten minute charging and two hour discharging.

The reality of global climate change has created worldwide pressure to curb emissions. This is in turn helping drive the push towards fully electric vehicles which have the potential to eliminate automobile-based emissions. Given that a visit to the gas station can take longer, the practicality of a ten-minute charge is further evidence that the coming of age for electric transportation is very close.

The Phoenix Motorcar SUT is due for limited release at the end of the year and a mid-Size SUV will also become part of the range. The company estimates 2008 production levels to be in the order of 6,000 vehicles.

http://www.businessweek.com/autos/c...+style="font-family:arial;">+</span>+features

I'm guessing that thing is extremely expensive though.

 

[speculawyer]

I just thought about this today......how are you supposed to plug in your car if you live in an apartment complex?
I mean, I guess new complexes might have charging stations built into their parking lots/garages and just add that to your rent, but I don't know how that would work nowadays.
I guess you could get a super long ass extension cord, but it'd sure suck to wake up and get ready to go to work to find that someone tripped over it during the night, and your car is dead.

That is definitely an issue. If electrics catch on, it would be relatively easily to add outlets. The issue would be security . . . creating locking charge boxes.

And if you get a hybrid, it doesn't matter if you have no charge . . . the engine will charge it for you.

I've already been scouting the parking garage I work for outlets . . . If I park on the most remote floor I think I could charge at work without anyone noticing.

 

[SteveMeister]

You should also add the Venture One to the OP.

 

[Davedough]

I dont pretend to be an electrical engineer or even know much about alternative technologies. I've rebuilt old classic cars from the ground up, so I know old tech. Basically, excuse my ignorance on this but...

Vehicles like the Prius, if I'm not mistaken, help supply an electric charge to the batteries by collecting electric generated by devices near each wheel of the vehicle. So, while the vehicle is moving, its supplying a charge to the electric side of the car. How is it not possible to create a self-regenerating electric car with the same principle. Utilize the top of the vehicle as a solar panel and increase the generator size at each wheel to store electricity in the capacitors and/or batteries for use as the vehicle moves. If engineered correctly, dont you think they'd be able to supply a vehicle with an initial charge (be it from a wall outlet) and then it could perpetuate its own "fuel" by simply moving?

What's wrong with my logic? I'm asking those more versed in this to point out my flaws in thinking.

 

[SteveMeister]

I dont pretend to be an electrical engineer or even know much about alternative technologies. I've rebuilt old classic cars from the ground up, so I know old tech. Basically, excuse my ignorance on this but...

Vehicles like the Prius, if I'm not mistaken, help supply an electric charge to the batteries by collecting electric generated by devices near each wheel of the vehicle. So, while the vehicle is moving, its supplying a charge to the electric side of the car. How is it not possible to create a self-regenerating electric car with the same principle. Utilize the top of the vehicle as a solar panel and increase the generator size at each wheel to store electricity in the capacitors and/or batteries for use as the vehicle moves. If engineered correctly, dont you think they'd be able to supply a vehicle with an initial charge (be it from a wall outlet) and then it could perpetuate its own "fuel" by simply moving?

What's wrong with my logic? I'm asking those more versed in this to point out my flaws in thinking.

No, the Prius uses regenerative braking to help charge the battery. There's no charge going back to the batteries from the wheels moving along.

 

[Davedough]

No, the Prius uses regenerative braking to help charge the battery. There's no charge going back to the batteries from the wheels moving along.

Ok, then I was mistaken there, but then why cant that be the case? An internal combustion engine keeps the spark going to ignite the fuel by having a battery create the initial spark, and then the turning of an alternator powers the vehicle while it's on. The alternator is simply brushes passing over metal (very rudimentary explanation) and creating said spark. Why cant that type of device be put in the wheels to spin brushes to generate power?

 

[SteveMeister]

Ok, then I was mistaken there, but then why cant that be the case? An internal combustion engine keeps the spark going to ignite the fuel by having a battery create the initial spark, and then the turning of an alternator powers the vehicle while it's on. The alternator is simply brushes passing over metal (very rudimentary explanation) and creating said spark. Why cant that type of device be put in the wheels to spin brushes to generate power?

It wouldn't be enough to counter the charge being drained by the electric motor. When the gasoline engine is running, it is working on recharging the batteries in addition to propelling the car. In a series hybrid, the gasoline engine is ONLY used to charge the batteries.

 

[NofrikinfuN]

Ok, then I was mistaken there, but then why cant that be the case? An internal combustion engine keeps the spark going to ignite the fuel by having a battery create the initial spark, and then the turning of an alternator powers the vehicle while it's on. The alternator is simply brushes passing over metal (very rudimentary explanation) and creating said spark. Why cant that type of device be put in the wheels to spin brushes to generate power?

I've thought over other similar methods of using rotation of the powertrain or axles to create a charge, but I think the general consensus is that doing something like that would wind up creating more energy loss due to friction and the like than it would actually generate. Couple that with massively increased costs for the assembly and maintenance of such a system and it may just not be worth doing.

I love the concept though. Were I mechanically able, I would test such systems. I'd also like to see wind turbines fixed onto vehicles that could create more energy than they would lose to increased drag. Solar panels on all exposed top surfaces and regenerative braking appear to be the only ideas that create lossless charges for now, unfortunately.

It's kind of counter to the idea of an electric vehicle, but I wonder if a portable gasoline/diesel generator would be an efficient way to increase mileage? Like, your batteries run to capacity, so you run the generator to recharge or directly supply the juice to run the motor. Kind of like a screwed-up hybrid car. How much less efficient would that be than a typical hybrid engine, I wonder?

 

[Evlar]

No, the Prius uses regenerative braking to help charge the battery. There's no charge going back to the batteries from the wheels moving along.

There is if the vehicle is decelerating or coasting; in the wiki article on Hybrid Synergy Drive this behavior is lumped under "Regenerative Braking" and described as an alternate type of compression braking. Despite the name this isn't typical press-the-pedal-and-the-car-stops braking; this behavior occurs in automatic transmission vehicles when descending a steep slope and maintaining a constant speed (or, in a manual transmission, downshifting on a steep decline). Priuses mimic this by operating one of the motor-generators in generation mode, placing a load on the drivetrain and transmitting the excess energy developed by rolling downhill to the batteries. Thus, it's "braking" but it does not involve pressing the brakes or even necessarily slowing down, and it does provide a charge.

I don't own a Prius but I have owned the Honda Civic Hybrid and that vehicle behaves in this manner very frequently- not just on steep declines but any time you allow the vehicle to coast to a slower speed.

EDIT: To avoid confusion, the Prius does use this system when the brakes are depressed as well. It's just not limited to pressing the brake pedal.

 

[twinturbo2]

The Volt is such a joke. Every day it gets worse and worse for that car. The first problem was that commercial where they were lauding the Volt as the next best thing...with a 40 mile (BEST CASE) range on batteries (will degrade over time), and it's still uses gas (if it's just a 'generator' then they should use diesel), and the price is pretty LOL.

 

[speculawyer]

You should also add the Venture One to the OP.

Mmm . . . I dunna about that one . . . it seems like an enclosed motorcycle. I need to revise my guidelines. For example, does the Tango with its kick-ass perfomance specs count? It is so damn small . . . I think I need some kind of size requirement.

http://www.commutercars.com/

 

[milanbaros]

Am I wrong to think the future (at least near term) could be in more fuel efficient ICEs and smaller cars?

In 2007, new passenger vehicles on the road

* in the U.S. average 25 miles per gallon
* in China average 34 miles per gallon (36% more fuel efficient than the U.S.)
* in Japan average 41 miles per gallon (64% more fuel efficient than the U.S.)
* in Europe average 42 miles per gallon (68% more fuel efficient than the U.S.)

A 50% increase in mpg would cancel out the cost of a 50% increase in gasoline prices and even then the US wouldn't be at Japanese or European levels.

 

[speculawyer]

I'd also like to see wind turbines fixed onto vehicles that could create more energy than they would lose to increased drag. Solar panels on all exposed top surfaces and regenerative braking appear to be the only ideas that create lossless charges for now, unfortunately.

There is no such thing as a free lunch. (Or a perpetual motion machine.) You can't ever expect to get more energy out than you put in. Basic thermodynamics. (OK . . . solar is a free lunch in that we do have a nice massive fusion reactor nearby that is pumping out massive amounts of energy every day.)

It's kind of counter to the idea of an electric vehicle, but I wonder if a portable gasoline/diesel generator would be an efficient way to increase mileage? Like, your batteries run to capacity, so you run the generator to recharge or directly supply the juice to run the motor. Kind of like a screwed-up hybrid car. How much less efficient would that be than a typical hybrid engine, I wonder?

The is exactly how the Chevy Volt and the Aptera work. It is called a 'series hybrid'.

 

[speculawyer]

Am I wrong to think the future (at least near term) could be in more fuel efficient ICEs and smaller cars?

Not wrong at all. As many people point out, many of these hybrids take a long time to cover the added cost. Buying small cheap efficient car is often the more cost-effective solution.

However, long term we need to change. Oil is a finite resource . . . eventually, we will run out completely (not for many years though). And the price is pretty much only gonna go up . . . we will continue to find more oil, but mostly in places where it is expensive to extract. I also like the political aspects of getting off oil and going electric since it:
1) Reduces trade deficit
2) Reduces carbon output
3) Reduces support to dictatorial (Russia, Venezuela, Saudi Arabia, etc.) and religious fundamentalist regimes (Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Iran, etc.)

And we do want our luxuries but in a more efficient manner . . . it is pretty cool that you can get a sports car that does 125 MPH, 0 to 60 in less than 4 seconds, and doesn't burn a drop of gasoline.

 

[TheJesusFactor]

Well, it looks like a company is working on increasing the battery capacity to hold 20 X more. So the 40 miles you guys are talking about might be 800 miles by the time the car is released.

http://www.engadget.com/2008/06/02/hitachi-maxell-claims-new-li-ion-battery-with-20x-the-power/

Will the Gas companies do all in their power to stop this?