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[Mission]

I know it's an electric car thread, but other options could be coming

Tata motors in India is working on cars based on Compressed Air. Based on discussion elsewhere in this thread the current models range and speed just barely match what the OP is looking for, but in a hydro-rich place like where I live its a great zero emissions option.

 

[NofrikinfuN]

There is no such thing as a free lunch. (Or a perpetual motion machine.) You can't ever expect to get more energy out than you put in. Basic thermodynamics. (OK . . . solar is a free lunch in that we do have a nice massive fusion reactor nearby that is pumping out massive amounts of energy every day.)

The is exactly how the Chevy Volt and the Aptera work. It is called a 'series hybrid'.

I was not aware that was the concept behind a series hybrid. It makes sense, but I honestly never puzzled it out or read into the technology. Esentially, it's an electric car that uses a generator instead of a battery array. Interesting. In that case, shouldn't it also be (theoretically) easier to do a series hybrid conversion than a full electric conversion?

Also, I'm aware of the "no free energy" concept, it just seems odd to me that a wind turbine could put up more drag/resistance than say, a truck tailgate. Rather than airflow catching the tailgate and causing drag on the rear, the drag instead turns a turbine. Would it still cause as much/more drag, even though the turbine rotates to allow the air to flow through?

I also thought maybe a turbine in the general vicinity of a radiator would be possible, for similar reasons. (A little browsing found that is actually an idea that showed up in a japanese concept car, though concept cars don't necessarily mean much.) It just seems like a solid wall or flat surface would cause more drag than a turbine, as the air has nowhere to go. Also, I wonder if factors such as downhill driving (Where less engine power would be used to produce the same speed.) would make up for losses due to drag on straight stretches/uphill climbs? Does the drag loss increase with increased speed?

I don't know. I'm not an aerodynamics engineer, however, so I wouldn't be surprised if my thoughts were completely counter to the laws of thermodynamics.

 

[Davedough]

I know it's an electric car thread, but other options could be coming

Tata motors in India is working on cars based on Compressed Air. Based on discussion elsewhere in this thread the current models range and speed just barely match what the OP is looking for, but in a hydro-rich place like where I live its a great zero emissions option.

There's more than just that company. http://theaircar.com

 

[speculawyer]

I was not aware that was the concept behind a series hybrid. It makes sense, but I honestly never puzzled it out or read into the technology. Esentially, it's an electric car that uses a generator instead of a battery array. Interesting. In that case, shouldn't it also be (theoretically) easier to do a series hybrid conversion than a full electric conversion?

No, they still have a battery array. I think you need at least a small battery array to act as a buffer for spikes of power need.

The theory for these series hybrids is that you plug them in and drive on the batter until the battery is low and then the motor kicks in to charge the battery if you actually run the battery out. However . . . in the vast majority of normal driving you'll rarely actually empty the battery if you plug the car in every night.

 

[NofrikinfuN]

I know it's an electric car thread, but other options could be coming

Tata motors in India is working on cars based on Compressed Air. Based on discussion elsewhere in this thread the current models range and speed just barely match what the OP is looking for, but in a hydro-rich place like where I live its a great zero emissions option.

I wonder how energy efficient air compression is versus charging a battery to drive an electric motor? I mean, both are going to consume energy, in the end.

Definitely an interesting concept though.

EDIT:

No, they still have a battery array. I think you need at least a small battery array to act as a buffer for spikes of power need.

The theory for these series hybrids is that you plug them in and drive on the batter until the battery is low and then the motor kicks in to charge the battery if you actually run the battery out. However . . . in the vast majority of normal driving you'll rarely actually empty the battery if you plug the car in every night.

Ah, thanks for the clarification. A neat system, certainly. My typical commute is around 50 miles a day, so I'd be pushing most battery capacities I've seen, but that looks like a good way to mitigate the extra miles.

Unfortunately, I probably won't be able to afford any of these technologies for about 10+ years.

 

[speculawyer]

Ah, thanks for the clarification. A neat system, certainly. My typical commute is around 50 miles a day, so I'd be pushing most battery capacities I've seen, but that looks like a good way to mitigate the extra miles.

Yeah, my commute is about the same . . . that's why I've been looking around the parking garage at work for outlets. Well, the Aptera with its 120 mile range could do it easily.

Unfortunately, I probably won't be able to afford any of these technologies for about 10+ years.

Well, if gas keeps rising at this rate, you will soon not be able to afford not getting one of these cars.

 

[Huzah]

Compressed air is roughly around 70% efficient for giant utility scale operations which is pretty good compared to pumped hydro, but I doubt the Tata car approaches that efficiency level. Compressed air has roughly the energy density of lead acid batteries, so it's not really going to fly for a American style car.

 

[Javaman]

I've always liked the idea of a large composite flywheel as the mode of propulsion for a car. The stored energy is increased by 4fold for every doubling of speed. You would have very little wear and tear if it ran on vacuum/magnetic bearings, and it would be pretty efficient at reclaiming energy during braking. On the downside it probably cause a horrific amount of damage in an accident.

 

[Ding]

I suppose a owner-modified Prius could be added to the list of "potential" electric cars. I don't think the economics are very compelling, but it is (more or less) available today, and at least you end up driving a Toyota, instead of some off brand.

Basically, you buy and install a big lithium ion battery pack, which supplements the Prius' existing small NiMH pack. It turns the current model Prius into a plug-in hybrid. Similar performance envelope to the Volt. 40 miles of mostly electric range, followed by 100s of miles of electric-optimized gas operation.

The big catch is that the battery pack costs $10k. Ouch.

Note: The Prius can only go about 38MPH with its gas engine stopped. If you want to go faster, the gas engine needs to be turning, but not necessarily "running". It has to do with the crazy transmission the Prius has. (Check out the "Understanding your Prius" pages on this site. It's a pretty neat system, IMO.) Even if the Prius' engine is running in the conventional sense, the electric motor(s) can still be contributing the bulk of the necessary power. I only mention this because the conventional wisdom is that "The Prius' electric motors can only work at low speeds." That's not really true.

 

[speculawyer]

Well . . . the Chevy Volt gonna price itself out of the market. :-/

Chevy Volt May be Priced at $40,000
Posted: Jun. 20, 2008 11:06 a.m.

The Chevy Volt will cost $30,000. No, $35,000. Alright, how about $40,000…

GM Vice Chairman and product development chief Bob Lutz told the Seattle Times that "the first-generation Volt will retail for about $40,000 and generate no profit for GM." The Times adds, "The company hopes to make money as it rolls out later versions of the vehicle and other plug-in models."

This follows assurances from CEO Rick Wagoner back in May that the Volt would make its target price of $30,000, and could sell for even less.

Car Domain, after sharing dinner with Lutz and other GM executives, reports that GM is "aiming to bring the Volt in under $40k, but are hoping that tax credits will make it easier for people to afford."

Autoblog Green comments, "Unless automotive industry lobbyists can convince Congress to pass some of the proposed legislation that includes plug-in tax credits on the order of $7,000 for a Volt-type car, the price to the consumer is going to be at least one third more than originally envisioned."

With battery research still ongoing, and the price of most cars going up as the price of the materials used to make cars rise, we wouldn't be at all surprised to see a $40,000 sticker on the Volt. For consumers, sticker price is just one consideration. The value proposition of a Volt at $40,000 depends largely on the mpg the car achieves when it comes to market. As frightening as it sounds, if gas prices continue their rise, a $40k plug-in hybrid might be a good deal. We'll report fuel economy numbers on the Volt as soon as we have them.

http://usnews.rankingsandreviews.co...ws/080620-Chevy-Volt-May-be-Priced-at-40-000/

 

[twinturbo2]

Well . . . the Chevy Volt gonna price itself out of the market. :-/



http://usnews.rankingsandreviews.co...ws/080620-Chevy-Volt-May-be-Priced-at-40-000/

I'm assuming that there's going to be a tax credit to get it under 35K...

 

[NofrikinfuN]

Corporate greed strikes again. Now they're inflating the value of an electric car based on the price of gas. The closer they tie the two together, the less benefit there will be in switching from one to the next. It's bad enough that battery technology is still so primitive that any decent solutions cost ungodly amounts of money. Bah.

At least advances in battery tech should lower the cost of current conversion kit tech, making that a somewhat feasible route, if a difficult one. Still, I hate when places take the tactic of "Well, what else are you going to do? This is going to be expensive either way."

 

[speculawyer]

I'm assuming that there's going to be a tax credit to get it under 35K...

Well, I support such a tax credit. Helping an American manufacturer with a locally manufactured product that will help gets us off foreign oil and reduce carbon emissions. That's good.

JayDubya will revoke my Libertarian card for that though. :lol I am strong proponent of markets, but I do think that there are times for such intervention. If left completely on their own, markets can lead to wild swings over-supply & shortages. The market takes time to adjust and can cause harmful dislocations.

With oil, a finite resource that are economy is based upon (What in your room right now has no oil it or didn't use oil to transport it at some point?), the government does need to help the economy begin to back away from it in a slow orderly manner. The fact that we didn't start doing this years ago is exactly why we've been slammed with such a painful fast oil price rise.

 

[SteveMeister]

Corporate greed strikes again. Now they're inflating the value of an electric car based on the price of gas. The closer they tie the two together, the less benefit there will be in switching from one to the next. It's bad enough that battery technology is still so primitive that any decent solutions cost ungodly amounts of money. Bah.

At least advances in battery tech should lower the cost of current conversion kit tech, making that a somewhat feasible route, if a difficult one. Still, I hate when places take the tactic of "Well, what else are you going to do? This is going to be expensive either way."

It's not corporate greed, it's realism. The Volt is an entirely new drivetrain, an entirely new set of technologies and an entirely new platform for GM. They can't cobble parts from other cars. They can't base it on a Malibu. They're sinking billions into the thing, and the $40k price is simply the reality of the situation.

I'll be surprised if Aptera makes any money selling their cars at $30k, too.

 

[speculawyer]

Updated the OP with some new cars.

 

[Peru]

I've seen quite a few Think cars on the streets here in Norway through the years, and also a few other electrical solutions. Me, I don't mind the look of these models, I've always wanted a Smart car so a small size and funky design is a pro to me. What it needs to have is a good run for each reload, and a guarantee to find sockets available on the road. I've got my drivers license, but I'm not buying a car until an electrical one fulfills my needs.

 

[Shockgamer]

Just thought this was worth posting because of the funky design.

It makes me wonder if those future, Demolition Man cars will come because societal tastes demand it, or it it's because the automotive designers think we're behind on Hollywood's standard of future aesthetics.

While there's no word on any plans to enter it into the Automotive X-Prize, it looks like the Antro Solo gas-electric hybrid here would at least be able to hold its own against the competition, with it promising to hit upwards of 150 miles per gallon on the highway. That takes a slight dip to a still impressive 117 mpg in city driving though, while the car's top speed clocks in at a decent 87 miles per hour. To hit those numbers, the company took a couple of extra steps beyond the usual gas-electric hybrids, including putting some solar cells on the car's roof to help charge the battery, and some pedals on the inside to keep it juiced up when the sun goes down. The fact that the entire car weighs less than 600 pounds doesn't hurt either. As you might have guessed, however, the car is still a ways away from rolling off the production line, but the company says it expects to get it out the door by 2012, when you'll supposedly be able to pick one up for $18,000.

 

[speculawyer]

Added a couple more cars to the OP. I'm liking the Aptera more and more right now. 120 mile range, 85 mph, 2 seats plus decent storage . . . and looks like a spaceship.

 

[Dolphin]

Just thought this was worth posting because of the funky design.

It makes me wonder if those future, Demolition Man cars will come because societal tastes demand it, or it it's because the automotive designers think we're behind on Hollywood's standard of future aesthetics.

That car will be the epitome of "too little, to late."

 

[speculawyer]

Just thought this was worth posting because of the funky design.

It makes me wonder if those future, Demolition Man cars will come because societal tastes demand it, or it it's because the automotive designers think we're behind on Hollywood's standard of future aesthetics.

Neither . . . such designs will come BECAUSE THEY WORK BEST. At freeway speeds, most of the energy is used just pushing air out of the way. So the less drag you have, the less energy you will spend. Thus, these super-low drag designs will catch on since they will give the cars the best range and speeds.

 

[Phoenix]

You are over estimating the cost and understating the power.

You can provide full power for a house with a $22K photo voltaic system. I know this . . . I built one. (It generates more power than it needed during the day and put it on the grid and took power from the grid at night . . . after averaging everything it out, it supplied all the power needed for the house.)

So have many people and the vast majority of them cannot claim what you're saying. Unless your house is relatively small and doesn't have a large number of appliances it is not likely that you're going to power it with solar. I've already looked at the options based on my homes consumption and at best I will lower my bill - enough to pay for the cells in about 50 years or so.

 

[BigGreenMat]

So have many people and the vast majority of them cannot claim what you're saying. Unless your house is relatively small and doesn't have a large number of appliances it is not likely that you're going to power it with solar. I've already looked at the options based on my homes consumption and at best I will lower my bill - enough to pay for the cells in about 50 years or so.

How is that every thread you come in and claim how any solution to a problem will never work for you? You have a guy who says it can be done and has been done in his case, and you immediately just discount it and say nope, not possible. Seriously, you are a big part of the problem.

 

[speculawyer]

So have many people and the vast majority of them cannot claim what you're saying. Unless your house is relatively small and doesn't have a large number of appliances it is not likely that you're going to power it with solar. I've already looked at the options based on my homes consumption and at best I will lower my bill - enough to pay for the cells in about 50 years or so.

I disagree. The house was relatively small and I had gas heat, hot water, stove/oven, dryer . . . so those big heat based energy users all used efficient natural gas. The solar panels provided plenty of power for refrigerator, big screen TV, stereo, lights, computers, network, microwave, etc.

Solar works. Yes, it is expensive initially . . but it works very well.

 

[Zabojnik]

I'm all for green(er) cars, I really am. But I wouldn't even think about considering buying most of the cars listed in the OP, because, by God, they are fucking UGLY. I realize that style (and performance, while we're at it) may not be what's on the top of the list for most people looking into electric vehicles. I'm also aware that the switch to new types of engines and technology may result in the need for a somewhat radical change of what is now considered the standard car form. However, if today's and near future electric vehicles are what's in store for the car industry, I'll very gladly continue to pay for gas, as long as I'm able to, and then switch to bicycle. 100% green.

Now Fisker's Karma, that's not too bad. Except the price, which in Europe is supposed to be as high as 110-120k€. :/

 

[speculawyer]

PBS's Newshour did a segment on electric cars today.

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/transportation/jan-june08/electriccars_06-25.html

Originally Aired: June 25, 2008
As Oil Prices Rise, Carmakers Look to Electric Future

Rising oil prices and improvements in battery technology are fueling new interest in developing electric cars. Spencer Michels reports on how industry giants and start-up car companies alike plan to release new vehicles by 2010.

SPENCER MICHELS, NewsHour Correspondent: For decades, the American public has been taunted with the promise that noiseless, gasoline-free, powerful, and sleek cars that run on cheap electricity were just around the corner.

That moment may finally be at hand, according to General Motors' chairman Rick Wagoner.

RICK WAGONER, CEO, General Motors: The auto industry can no longer rely almost exclusively on oil to supply the world's automotive energy requirements.

SPENCER MICHELS: Cars that don't use gasoline but run on electricity have long been almost ready, but batteries that would stay charged for a long ride were not.

In 1914, Henry Ford's wife drove around in this electric beauty. And in the last 20 years, big automakers rolled out a series of electric prototypes and hinted they would be available soon.

In 1996, I went for a ride in a $19,000 all-electric sports car called a Zebra, made by a startup in California whose part-owner thought the future looked bright.

GARY STARR, Zebra Motors: We're taking orders for the first limited run of 500, which will be built next year.

SPENCER MICHELS: But Zebra, like a lot of optimistic electric car makers, went out of business, and its successor company, while producing scooters, bikes, and some short-range vehicles, has not delivered electric full-scale cars yet.

Also in 1996, the most famous electric vehicle of all was put on the market, General Motors' EV1, which it leased to motorists. But in 2003, GM pulled the plug, recalled the cars, and claimed the public wasn't ready and the cars were not profitable.

Elon Musk
Founder, Tesla Motors

I've actually made a prediction that, within 30 years, a majority of new cars made in the United States will be electric. And I don't mean hybrid; I mean fully electric.

The revival of electric vehicles
SPENCER MICHELS: The documentary, "Who Killed the Electric Car," told of how GM and Honda physically crushed all the electric vehicles they had produced. The film blamed GM and others, including the oil companies, for conspiring to eliminate non- gasoline vehicles.

Whatever happened in the past, GM's boss says, today, much has changed.

RICK WAGONER: I guess I'm not going to spend a lot of time looking into the rearview mirror, but what has changed is energy prices are up. And I don't think it's a cyclical thing.

In addition, there's a lot more focus in society on CO-2 emissions, and it's making clear to me that consumers have different expectations today and are willing to make different tradeoffs for fuel economy than they were in the past. And if we want to be successful, we've got to get out in front of that.

SPENCER MICHELS: Some companies already say they are in front. Tesla Motors, in California's Silicon Valley, is starting to produce a two-seat electric sports car that is selling for $109,000. The company has orders for more than 1,000, selling out its expected first-year production.

Tesla's founder, 36-year-old Elon Musk, who started PayPal, has invested $50 million in the company and has no doubt about the future.

ELON MUSK, Founder, Tesla Motors: I've actually made a prediction that, within 30 years, a majority of new cars made in the United States will be electric. And I don't mean hybrid; I mean fully electric.

SPENCER MICHELS: The Tesla sports car, called the Roadster, accelerates from zero to 60 in 3.9 seconds, which, I can attest, is breathtaking.

ELON MUSK: Well, this is faster than any Ferrari or Aston Martin currently in production.

It has fantastic handling, by the way. I mean, this car will crush a Porsche on the track, just crush it. It uses half the energy and creates less than half the CO-2 per mile of a Prius.

SPENCER MICHELS: It takes about three-and-a-half hours to charge the Tesla's batteries. The electricity costs about $4, and the charge lasts just 225 miles, something the company hopes to improve.

The battery, of course, is the key to the Tesla. It's powered by nearly 7,000 of these, lithium-ion batteries, the same kind that powers your computer. And they go into this metal case, which then goes into the car. It weighs 1,000 pounds.

ELON MUSK: This is really about leveraging a completely new technology that the big incumbent car companies don't really understand that well. And it's something that is well-suited to Silicon Valley, where electrical engineering expertise is the greatest in the world.

Rick Wagoner
CEO, General Motors

We had about 100 years of an auto industry in which 98 percent of the energy to power the vehicles has come from oil. We're really going to change that over the next time period.
Challenges of low-cost production
SPENCER MICHELS: While Tesla boasts about its advances in battery technology, a bigger challenge will be mass producing less expensive electric cars in the future, says GM's Rick Wagoner.

RICK WAGONER: We've watched with admiration as to what Tesla is doing. It's fine if you're making 1,000 or 2,000 of an electric car, but it's not going to have a big dent in oil consumption in the country or CO-2 emissions. What's going to have a big dent is if you can do 100,000, 200,000, 500,000, a million units.

SPENCER MICHELS: Figuring the day of mass-produced all-electric cars is still far off, a non-profit group called CalCars is working to convert hybrid cars like the Toyota Prius to nearly all electric.

CALCARS EMPLOYEE: I've got an extension cord ready for you.

SPENCER MICHELS: At the Luscious Garage in San Francisco, Carolyn Coquillette adds extra batteries to the Prius, which then can be charged using household power. The conversion costs more than $5,000, which CalCars' Felix Kramer admits is a lot.

FELIX KRAMER, CalCars: The CalCars' plug-in hybrid conversions are simply a strategy. They're to build awareness and support for the carmakers to win. So the big win is when the carmakers build them in the millions.

SPENCER MICHELS: In fact, Toyota plans to bring out a hybrid plug-in in 2010, as does GM, with a car called the Volt.

RICK WAGONER: We had about 100 years of an auto industry in which 98 percent of the energy to power the vehicles has come from oil. We're really going to change that over the next time period, things like battery development and applying batteries to cars, as we're planning on doing with the Volt, is an important step, kind of, in the next 100 years of the auto industry.

Mary Nichols
California Air Resources Board

Right now, the little fuel cells are just not that durable and so these cars don't have the range. The gold standard that we're talking about is a 400-mile car.


Making hydrogen-based technology
SPENCER MICHELS: Some car companies, like Ford, are betting on yet another technology: hydrogen fuel cells. Through a chemical reaction, the cells convert hydrogen directly to electricity, which powers the car, as in this Ford Focus advanced prototype.

ROB RILEY, Project Manager, Ford Motor Company: There are no fan belts.

SPENCER MICHELS: You don't need a fan belt?

ROB RILEY: No.

SPENCER MICHELS: Rob Riley is a project manager for Ford in Sacramento.

ROB RILEY: The tailpipe emissions are drips of clean water. And that's what makes this vehicle what they call a zero-emissions vehicle.

SPENCER MICHELS: Watching the various new technologies is Mary Nichols, head of the California Air Resources Board, whose aim has been to improve the California air polluted by gasoline-burning cars. But fuel cells, she says, aren't quite ready.

MARY NICHOLS, California Air Resources Board: Right now, the little fuel cells are just not that durable and so these cars don't have the range. The gold standard that we're talking about is a 400-mile car.

SPENCER MICHELS: There are just a few hydrogen fueling stations, making the cars impractical for now. And critics say generating hydrogen uses too much energy. Why not simply make electricity instead of making hydrogen? asks Tesla's Elon Musk.

ELON MUSK: The fuel cell is just a fundamentally inferior way of delivering electrical energy. It's incredibly inefficient to do that. You'll always win by taking that same electrical source and just directly charging a battery.


Carmakers encouraged to reach out
SPENCER MICHELS: Nichols' Air Resources Board has, for years, required that carmakers produce low-emission and no-emission vehicles, be they biofuel, hydrogen or electric. But recently, the board retreated from insisting on zero-emission vehicles, saying the car companies couldn't produce the number of clean cars the state required.

MARY NICHOLS: The purpose of this program is to mandate the big companies -- the General Motors, the Fords, the Toyotas -- to start selling us cars that run mostly on electricity or all-electric drive in the future. And to do that, you've got to reach the mass market, not just the early adopters or the committed environmentalists.

SPENCER MICHELS: Many of those environmentalists have criticized Nichols for giving not being tough enough. Ze'ev Drori, the CEO of Tesla, is also critical.

ZE'EV DRORI, CEO, Tesla Motors: I think the state must push, cajole and encourage the carmakers to get into cleaner and cleaner vehicles, zero-emission vehicles.

MARY NICHOLS: We're pushing them pretty hard, because, by 2020, we're actually going to need a vehicle fleet that's all electric drive train.

SPENCER MICHELS: The regulators and the carmakers themselves know the electric car industry is still in its infancy, but nearly everyone involved says it has turned a major corner. And the promises of the past are closer to fulfillment than anyone imagined just a few years ago.

RAY SUAREZ: Tomorrow, California officials will unveil a blueprint for fighting global warming. Among the recommendations: encouraging more electric and fuel-efficient vehicles, and requiring utilities to use more solar and wind power.

And on our Web site, you can find more from Spencer's interviews with General Motors CEO Rick Wagoner and others in his report. It's all at PBS.org.

 

[speculawyer]

I'm all for green(er) cars, I really am. But I wouldn't even think about considering buying most of the cars listed in the OP, because, by God, they are fucking UGLY. I realize that style (and performance, while we're at it) may not be what's on the top of the list for most people looking into electric vehicles. I'm also aware that the switch to new types of engines and technology may result in the need for a somewhat radical change of what is now considered the standard car form. However, if today's and near future electric vehicles are what's in store for the car industry, I'll very gladly continue to pay for gas, as long as I'm able to, and then switch to bicycle. 100% green.

Now Fisker's Karma, that's not too bad. Except the price, which in Europe is supposed to be as high as 110-120k€. :/

You're too sexy for electric cars . . . :lol

 

[Phoenix]

How is that every thread you come in and claim how any solution to a problem will never work for you? You have a guy who says it can be done and has been done in his case, and you immediately just discount it and say nope, not possible. Seriously, you are a big part of the problem.

Seriously, your reading comprehension is pretty bad. I said that most of the people who talk about the solution on forums like these that I read say that fully powering a home with solar works only for small homes with few appliances and generally require other technologies for cooling/heating as the efficiency of solar doesn't cover it. I've got a 5800+ sq foot house. At the current efficiency of solar the guys who came out and quoted me an estimate have told me that based on Atlanta I will at best get a decrease on my bill.

So maybe you should just be quiet until you actually can understand what has been said. Don't presume to speak for me.

 

[Phoenix]

I disagree. The house was relatively small and I had gas heat, hot water, stove/oven, dryer . . . so those big heat based energy users all used efficient natural gas. The solar panels provided plenty of power for refrigerator, big screen TV, stereo, lights, computers, network, microwave, etc.

Solar works. Yes, it is expensive initially . . but it works very well.

Our biggest power consumer is the AC. Are you powering your AC via solar all day?

 

[Zaptruder]

Seriously, your reading comprehension is pretty bad. I said that most of the people who talk about the solution on forums like these that I read say that fully powering a home with solar works only for small homes with few appliances and generally require other technologies for cooling/heating as the efficiency of solar doesn't cover it. I've got a 5800+ sq foot house. At the current efficiency of solar the guys who came out and quoted me an estimate have told me that based on Atlanta I will at best get a decrease on my bill.

So maybe you should just be quiet until you actually can understand what has been said. Don't presume to speak for me.

Tried a combination solar, battery and wind tech?

I think this sort of technology will ultimately be factored into house prices, giving you a decent return on the investment... as the desirability to be greener kicks in, and these sorts of things are seen as fashionable and trendy rather than eyesores.

 

[Phoenix]

Tried a combination solar, battery and wind tech?

I think this sort of technology will ultimately be factored into house prices, giving you a decent return on the investment... as the desirability to be greener kicks in, and these sorts of things are seen as fashionable and trendy rather than eyesores.

Just solar and battery. There wasn't enough wind in our area according to the planner. They talked to us about digging a well and using geothermal, but man that is expensive as hell to get adequately and the HOA would be bitching when we went to get it installed. Honda used to make versions of a hydrogen fuel cell, but the planner said that they were very limited in number and aren't on the market any more.

One thing the HOA was good about was that as long as the cells matched the roof color and pitch and as long as they weren't facing the street they were fine with the installation.

 

[speculawyer]

Our biggest power consumer is the AC. Are you powering your AC via solar all day?

No . . . where I lived you only needed AC a few days a year and I was at work during weekdays so it wasn't on very often . . . just some hot weekends. Of course, if you need lots of AC then you probably live in an area with lots of great sun for powering a PV system, so that should help a bit but AC is a power-hog.

I guess you'd want to install a bigger system in a place with AC on all the time, but it is still doable . . . the size (and price) of the system will go up a bit though.


Regarding batteries, I'd say don't even think about them unless you live in the middle of nowhere and are off the grid. They are just an unnecessary expense and hassle. The grid acts as a big battery. The only downside with battery-less systems is that they will not operate if the grid's power goes down . . . . you've got no power despite your solar system. (A battery system is needed to smooth out the power and you need to disconnect from the grid when the power is out so people trying to fix power outage don't get electrocuted by upstream power from solar systems.)

 

[speculawyer]

One thing the HOA was good about was that as long as the cells matched the roof color and pitch and as long as they weren't facing the street they were fine with the installation.

Well . . . you can always tell the HOA to stuff it because they are generally not allowed to complain about solar systems.

Assuming you live in Arizona:

Arizona law protects individual homeowners’ private property rights to solar access by dissolving any local covenant, restriction or condition attached to a property deed that restricts the use of solar energy.

This law sustained a legal challenge in 2000. A Maricopa County Superior Court judge ruled in favor of homeowners in a lawsuit filed by their homeowners association seeking to force the homeowners to remove roof-top solar panels. The judge found that the association's "guidelines combined with [its] conduct 'effectively prohibited' the defendants from placing solar heating devices on their residence, contrary to the provisions of A.R.S.-33-439 (A)."

Senate Bill 1254, enacted in July 2007, stipulates that a homeowners association may not prohibit the installation or use of solar-energy devices (panels and associated devices). An association may adopt reasonable rules regarding the placement of a solar device so long as those rules do not prevent the installation of the device, impair the functioning of the device, restrict its use, or adversely affect the cost or efficiency of the device. The bill also requires that the court award reasonable attorney fees and costs to any party who substantially prevails in litigation against an association's board of directors as it relates to the provisions.

http://www.dsireusa.org/library/inc...Code=AZ07R&state=AZ&CurrentPageID=1&RE=1&EE=1

So something like "Not being able to face the street" would be illegal in all likelihood if your street side faced south. And the color restriction is also pretty ridiculous . . . Most PV systems come in any color you like as long as you like black. You know . . . the color that absorbs all light.


Edit: BTW, your local electric company has a pretty nice rebate . .. $3 watt/DC

http://www.dsireusa.org/library/inc...Code=AZ04F&state=AZ&CurrentPageID=1&RE=1&EE=1
That could cover half the cost of a PV system!

 

[gkryhewy]

I've got a 5800+ sq foot house.

Holy crap, dude.

In 20 years, we will look back on McMansions and cringe.

 

[The Chosen One]

I've got a question...

...If you plugin your electric car into your house socket, aren't you just increasing your home electric bill? Does that pretty much negate your gas savings?

 

[SpoonyBard]

I've got a question...

...If you plugin your electric car into your house socket, aren't you just increasing your home electric bill? Does that pretty much negate your gas savings?

Electricity is cheaper than gasoline. Did you really think nobody hadn't thought that before?

 

[SteveMeister]

Some areas have incentives to add solar power. For example, in my county, they'll deduct the cost of a solar power installation from your home's property tax each year for 10 years. In my case, a PV power system would pay for it self in 4-5 years on that alone. AND reduce my electric bill.

I could also add a wind turbine for about $7k, and convert my furnace to a geothermal heat pump (using my existing well instead of having all those PVC water pipes buried) and get a big savings that way.

 

[speculawyer]

I've got a question...

...If you plugin your electric car into your house socket, aren't you just increasing your home electric bill? Does that pretty much negate your gas savings?

Yes and No, not even close.

Hmm . . . actually, between the solar discussion and your question I just realized that even a solar powered electric car costs less to operate than a gas car right now (I think). That is a weird statistic I haven't heard mentioned by anyone yet. I have to run the numbers. But even though solar electricity costs more than electricity from your utility (which is why it is not widely adopted yet.), the energy cost per mile of a electric car is less than the cost per mile of a gasoline car.

Those damn batteries for the cars are so expensive though . . . but if true mass production of the batteries begins and oil just hit $140/barrel today . . . break-even has got to be very close.

 

[speculawyer]

For example, in my county, they'll deduct the cost of a solar power installation from your home's property tax each year for 10 years. In my case, a PV power system would pay for it self in 4-5 years on that alone. AND reduce my electric bill.

Holy crap . . . where is that?!?! A system where I live could pay for itself in 2 to 3 years at that rate!

 

[SteveMeister]

Holy crap . . . where is that?!?! A system where I live could pay for itself in 2 to 3 years at that rate!

Loudoun County, VA

 

[Shockgamer]

http://www.nbc24.com/news/news_story.aspx?id=147728

Article and video on the ZAP Alias. Top speed 100mph, 100 miles on a single charge. $33,000

 

[The Chosen One]

Yes and No, not even close.

Hmm . . . actually, between the solar discussion and your question I just realized that even a solar powered electric car costs less to operate than a gas car right now (I think). That is a weird statistic I haven't heard mentioned by anyone yet. I have to run the numbers. But even though solar electricity costs more than electricity from your utility (which is why it is not widely adopted yet.), the energy cost per mile of a electric car is less than the cost per mile of a gasoline car.

Those damn batteries for the cars are so expensive though . . . but if true mass production of the batteries begins and oil just hit $140/barrel today . . . break-even has got to be very close.

Thanks for the answer.

I figured it would be cheaper but I was curious how much cheaper, especially to charge a giant battery. For example, is it cheap enough where you can easily let your friends plug their cars into your house? Or should you keep car charges to a minimum of your family cars only?

I know these are stupid questions for some, but this info isn't widely known yet and they're thousands of other dumb people like me out there.

 

[kevm3]

I just wish they actually made more of these electric cars look GOOD.

 

[speculawyer]

http://www.nbc24.com/news/news_story.aspx?id=147728

Article and video on the ZAP Alias. Top speed 100mph, 100 miles on a single charge. $33,000

100mph? Niiice. I guess I'll add this & the commutercar to the OP.

[/QUOTE]

Fuckin' BATMAN!

 

[Funky Papa]

http://www.nbc24.com/news/news_story.aspx?id=147728

Article and video on the ZAP Alias. Top speed 100mph, 100 miles on a single charge. $33,000

I wouldn't put my confidence in Zap, much less any amount of money.

 

[speculawyer]

Thanks for the answer.

I figured it would be cheaper but I was curious how much cheaper, especially to charge a giant battery. For example, is it cheap enough where you can easily let your friends plug their cars into your house? Or should you keep car charges to a minimum of your family cars only?

I know these are stupid questions for some, but this info isn't widely known yet and they're thousands of other dumb people like me out there.

Depends on how nice & rich you are. If you go back through this thread, there are some numbers . . . it is something like a penny for a mile with electric and 13 cents a mile with a gas car that gets 30mph and $5/gallon gas.

If you plug in your car every night, it will cost something like $1 to $2 per day to charge it. This is all very dependent on the particular car, your driving, etc. Obviously the hyper-efficient Aptera would cost less . . . and it seems you could even forget to charge it every other night.

Some quotes:

With your electrical company's incentive pricing factored in, it will cost you roughly 1 cent per mile to drive the Tesla Roadster.** But the incentives don't stop there. Depending on where you live, other bonuses may include:

Single-occupancy access to all carpool lanes
Income tax credit (awaiting new legislation)
A luxury car that's fully exempt from the luxury car tax
Free parking at charging stations at LAX
No parking meter fees in an increasing number of major metropolitan areas
The information on this page should not be viewed as an official or legally binding document. For more information about electric vehicle incentives, visit www.fueleconomy.gov or consult an IRS tax representative.

** Since most car owners recharge at night, this calculation uses off-peak charging rates with a time-of-use meter. To calculate your exact cost-per-mile, contact your local electricity provider.

http://www.teslamotors.com/efficiency/how_it_works.php

The map above shows the average retail price of electricity in the U.S. by state in 2003. It ranges from around 6 cents/KWH to 17 cents/KWH. The U.S. average for 2007 is 10.65 cents. To see the numbers for the current year click here. If we use the average, the cost to recharge the Volt will be $0.85, and the range for 2007 will be from 48 cents to $1.34 depending where you live. Clearly for 40 miles of driving at present gas and electric prices, there will be a very significant cost savings. Of course, there is some uncertainty of where these numbers will be when the Volt arrives in 2010.

http://gm-volt.com/chevy-volt-reasons-for-use-and-cost-of-operation/

How fast will the Aptera go?
At this time we are not able to post hard numbers on performance, although top speed for the production model will exceed 85 mph, going from 0-60 in under 10 seconds.

How long will it take to charge the Aptera?
This depends on the amount of battery discharge but a typical time would be 2 to 4 hours.

How much will it cost for an overnight charge?
Looking at typical California electricity rates the cost should be in the $1 to $2 range for an overnight charge.

http://www.aptera.com/ask.php

 

[SteveMeister]

Personally, I'd get the extended range Aptera hybrid. It's a series hybrid -- the small gas powered engine is only used to recharge the batteries -- but it has a much greater range than the pure electric. My commute is between 90 and 100 miles per day round trip and I don't want to worry about running out of charge.

 

[speculawyer]

Personally, I'd get the extended range Aptera hybrid. It's a series hybrid -- the small gas powered engine is only used to recharge the batteries -- but it has a much greater range than the pure electric. My commute is between 90 and 100 miles per day round trip and I don't want to worry about running out of charge.

Yeah, series hybrid seems to be the future from what I can see. The efficiency of electric vehicles with the long range and fast fill-up of gas vehicles.

If GM can manage pull off the Volt, they may really have a winner. They may actually leapfrog Toyota. But there are issues . . . can they get the cost of the batteries down? Will their design be low drag enough to a get a good electric-only range? I worry that they are gonna blow it by not making it efficient enough. (They'll have a higher-drag boxy design or they'll insist on really high performance specs.)

I think pure electrics will have a decent niche too. With super-low-drag design, the Aptera electric has a pretty darn good range. Eliminating the ICE reduces the cost a little bit and frees up space for batteries.

Of the OP, the Aptera and Volt are the only ones I can seriously consider.

 

[milanbaros]

Sorry stevemeister but what is that in your avatar?

 

[SteveMeister]

Sorry stevemeister but what is that in your avatar?

FEAR THE WALKTOPUS!

It's an octopus, demonstrating an unusual form of mobility.

 

[Funky Papa]

How come nobody talks about the Venturi Fetish? It's pretty much the Roadster's daddy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venturi_Fétish
http://www.venturifetish.fr

Not as fast, but way cooler IMO.