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[Kamina]

Also, I bought mgsv because of quiet. I hadn't played an mgs game since 2.

Creepy
Today, 09:27 AM, Post #245

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[Crossing Eden]

Using 'sex sells' as an argument to defend sexualized representations of women is one thing, but the fact is that sex does sell in the grand scheme of things. It's why every hero is attractive, it's why every heroine is attractive. You'll never see a fat pig be a successful character in a successful series whether male or female. Even Mario, being a short hero, is relatively attractive with his facial features.

Making something attractive, is to appeal to someones sexuality however they are inclined. Sex does sell. Saying that games with sexist representations not selling gangbusters(Or being successful) completely rejects the notion of sex sells, is flawed in itself.

This isn't about the concept that sex sells video games, (it does when it's the main product but considering the climate and how more and more women are playing games with devs allowed to flex their muscles creatively, and how desexualized male game characters are, it's not a huge factor). Mario is literally an overweight plumber. "Attractive facial features"

Dude barely looks his age let alone having any sort of traditionally attractive facial features like a square jaw. Also, bullshit that a game with an attractive male character wouldn't be successful.

[/IMG]

Male characters cover the entire spectrum from rugged to old to ugly to scarred without a hubbub from anyone.

 

[Rappy]

you may need to put a /S at the end as many will misunderstood the 'intent' of your post.

GAF is getting weird by the day.

Where's the sarcasm? The thread title is just flat out wrong.

I guess "sex does sell, but we should try to do better" isn't a flashy enough thread title.

Probably. I wouldn't have even responded to the thread if it weren't for the thread title.

 

[Creepy]

I think trevor is sexy... not even joking.
I hate it when I have to play the other guys in gtav.

 

[Crossing Eden]

I think trevor is sexy... not even joking.
I hate it when I have to play the other guys in gtav.

That's on you, the intention is for him to be perceived as disgusting and off-putting as possible. Michael defines dad bod and is clearly a bit overweight, only Frankly is at his peak. Right down to him having spots and pimples textured on his unwashed ass.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

This isn't about the concept that sex sells video games, (it does when it's the main product but considering the climate and how more and more women are playing games with devs allowed to flex their muscles creatively, and how desexualized male game characters are, it's not a huge factor). Mario is literally an overweight plumber. "Attractive"

Dude barely looks his age let alone having any sort of traditionally attractive facial features like a square jaw. Also, bullshit that a game with an attractive male character wouldn't be successful. 80.jpg[/IMG]

Like I mentioned, Mario is physically attractive in his own ways. He's not physically ugly in the face. He's chubby, yeah, but not obese. He can still run and jump.

Travis is part of a successful game series that tends to have alot of sex within the story and gameplay(So not the best example.)

I don't recognize that ugly goblin enough to comment. But I guess he's not as well known as Mario.

Fenix is attractive. Square Jaw, huge frame. Maybe not attractive to you, but he's attractive in the same way how Schwarzenegger or Stallone was.

Also, is that last character from Psychonauts? The game that didn't do that well and the sequel needed to be crowdfunded 10 years later because nobody would invest in double fine to have them make a game because they have production issues when it comes to time tables and their games don't sell enough to justify that fact?

If those are your examples uh...I don't know what to say. Not the greatest examples.

Bring up Minecraft or something. Hell bring up Starcraft. Those are two popular games that sold despite the lack of sexuality.

Either way, the point is that sex does sell. You're trying to posit that sex does not. It does. Like other posters said, there is no absolute. Sometimes games sale partly in thanks to their attractive characters, sometimes they don't.

 

[Rhazer Fusion]

Nah, sex doesn't sell, especially when it comes to video games. In fact, ti seemingly turns off and offends most gamers. I say 1 million times that if sex did sell, games like Onechanbara, X-Blades, DOAXBV, BMX XXX, Outlaw Golf, Guy Game and Rumble Roses would of sold millions and millions effortlessly. Also I doubt games like Witcher 3 or GTA5 sell they way they do because of some sex scenes and hookers. Most Japanese games imo feature more visually attractive characters than most Western games. Do they sell better or get more attention? Rarely, if ever. Sex is probably the last thing that sells video games and that is indicative when you look at the top selling games each and every month for the last few years and decades.

 

[CrimsonSquall]

Nathan Drake is not even the most beautiful or handsome men ever, he is neither muscular or NBA level height, he is like a regular white guy...he is popular because of his 'charm'.....think of him as Chow Yun Fatt as Tequila from Hardboiled. It doesnt matter the race. It's just charm that matters.

Like i don't think GTA San Andreas' sales suffered because it features a black man as a protagonist instead of the typical white guy.


I think if you want to quote an example, a probably example will be those JRPGs protagonists with their perfect hair, perfect bodies and perfect eyeliners...but that's more of a japanese thing.

You are HIGHLY and I can't state this enough, highly overestimating the looks of an average white person. The average white male looks nothing like Nathan Drake. Average men aren't universally attractive.

His 'charm' wouldn't work if he is ugly. He would be seen as creepy by most otherwise

 

[Bulbasaur]

Hey, I'm buying Senran Kagura games because I totally don't enjoy anime girls with gigantic breasts.

 

[EvB]

I'm in Tokyo at the moment and you can just see the insane difference to western culture when it comes to the depiction of women(?) in media. It's definately not video game specific

 

[Mega]

This isn't about the concept that sex sells video games, (it does when it's the main product but considering the climate and how more and more women are playing games with devs allowed to flex their muscles creatively, and how desexualized male game characters are, it's not a huge factor). Mario is literally an overweight plumber. "Attractive facial features"

Dude barely looks his age let alone having any sort of traditionally attractive facial features like a square jaw. Also, bullshit that a game with an attractive male character wouldn't be successful.

Male characters cover the entire spectrum from rugged to old to ugly to scarred without a hubbub from anyone.

First off, Mario isn't overweight, at least not in his current design.

Without a hubbub because a stated earlier, men are buying the games and the games are made for men. Why would a man raise a stink about a hot female character if it doesn't bother him and generally appeals to him? Do you complain that romantic novels cater almost exclusively to women? I don't... I just read something else because I'm reasonable and understand that genre isn't catering to me and never will because most men just aren't into that stuff.

Lastly, you picked out a few examples that mainly demonstrate we like our sex and we like our violence, sometimes coexisting side by side in the same title (GTA), sometimes not (GoW). I don't know what the Mario example is meant to prove. The logical conclusion of your bizarre argument is that Disney, Pixar and DreamWorks movies do well, therefore we don't really need R-rated flicks with explicit sex and nudity, and should then have less of them in the world.

 

[Crossing Eden]

Like I mentioned, Mario is physically attractive in his own ways. He's not physically ugly in the face. He's chubby, yeah, but not obese. He can still run and jump.

He can still run and jump but that's because he's a video game character, it has nothing to do with attraction, he started out as pixels. He's not physically attractive why are we it genuinely seems like you're trolling.

Travis is part of a successful game series that tends to have alot of sex within the story and gameplay(So not the best example.)

And he's presented in the ugliest ways possible. Unapologetically a disgusting individual, even when having sex. There's nothing titillating about Trevor's design, and that's the point, that's ok, he's a man, ofc he can be unattractive. We never get shit like this in the gaming community when an unnattractive male character is revealed.

I don't recognize that ugly goblin enough to comment. But I guess he's not as well known as Mario.

There are few if any characters in this medium as recognizable as mario.

Fenix is attractive. Square Jaw, huge frame. Maybe not attractive to you, but he's attractive in the same way how Schwarzenegger or Stallone was.

Are you someone who genuinely finds men attractive? Because Fenix is absolutely not attractive, ESPECIALLY not in the way Schwarzenegger was. Just being muscular doesn't make an individual attractive dude.

Also, is that last character from Psychonauts? The game that didn't do that well and the sequel needed to be crowdfunded 10 years later because nobody would invest in double fine to have them make a game because they have production issues when it comes to time tables and their games don't sell enough to justify that fact?

If those are your examples uh...I don't know what to say. Not the greatest examples.

Bring up Minecraft or something. Hell bring up Starcraft. Those are two popular games that sold despite the lack of sexuality.

GTAV is one of the greatest selling games of all time.

Either way, the point is that sex does sell. You're trying to posit that sex does not. It does. Like other posters said, there is no absolute. Sometimes games sale partly in thanks to their attractive characters, sometimes they don't.

It genuinely seems like you have no interest in seeing or addressing the point of the thread. -___-

You are HIGHLY and I can't state this enough, highly overestimating the looks of an average white person. The average white male looks nothing like Nathan Drake. Average men aren't universally attractive.

His 'charm' wouldn't work if he is ugly. He would be seen as creepy by most otherwise

First off, Mario isn't overweight, at least not in his current design.

He's definitely not thin or muscular.

Without a hubbub because a stated earlier, men are buying the games and the games are made for men. Why would a man raise a stink about a hot female character if it doesn't bother him and generally appeals to him? Do you complain that romantic novels cater almost exclusively to women? I don't... I just read something else because I'm reasonable and understand that genre isn't catering to me and never will because most men just aren't into that stuff.

Or because the perception, representation, and treatment of women in this medium has been poor for so long that gaming culture is full of misogynistic shit when it comes to women who're not "traditionally attractive enough." It seems you missed the point in how men are allowed to be portrayed however without complaints.

Lastly, you picked out a few examples that mainly demonstrate we like our sex and we like our violence, sometimes coexisting side by side in the same title (GTA), sometimes not (GoW). I don't know what the Mario example is meant to prove. The logical conclusion of your bizarre argument is that Disney, Pixar and DreamWorks movies do well, therefore we don't really need R-rated flicks with explicit sex and nudity, and should then have less of them in the world.

Once again, the point

--------------------------































you

 

[CrimsonSquall]

First off, Mario isn't overweight, at least not in his current design.

Without a hubbub because a stated earlier, men are buying the games and the games are made for men. Why would a man raise a stink about a hot female character if it doesn't bother him and generally appeals to him? Do you complain that romantic novels cater almost exclusively to women? I don't... I just read something else because I'm reasonable and understand that genre isn't catering to me and never will because most men just aren't into that stuff.

Lastly, you picked out a few examples that mainly demonstrate we like our sex and we like our violence, sometimes coexisting side by side in the same title (GTA), sometimes not (GoW). I don't know what the Mario example is meant to prove. The logical conclusion of your bizarre argument is that Disney, Pixar and DreamWorks movies do well, therefore we don't really need R-rated flicks with explicit sex and nudity, and should then have less of them in the world.

Mario is overweight, no sugarcoating that. Overalls don't form into a ball in your midsection unless you are overweight

 

[Com Truise]

A big reason why I have no interest in Andromeda is because all of the characters are ugly mofos. Part of why Automata was Day -1 to me was 2B's ass. Dead or Alive 5 generates its entire revenue by tits. And then there is Overwatch of course. So, the premise presented in the OP doesn't sound very convincing to me.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

He can still run and jump but that's because he's a video game character, it has nothing to do with attraction, he started out as pixels. He's not physically attractive why are we it genuinely seems like you're trolling.

Mario is not ugly. He doesn't have horrid moles or rashes, he doesn't have wrinkles, he doesn't have any defects in his face. He did start out as pixels but artwork existed then that was more or less translated to how he looked today.

And he's presented in the ugliest ways possible. Unapologetically a disgusting individual, even when having sex. There's nothing titillating about Trevor's design, and that's the point, that's ok, he's a man, ofc he can be unattractive. We never get shit like this in the gaming community.

Yes and? GTA is still filled with sex-laden escapades, and GTA made it's notoriety due to prostitutes and what you can do with them. Along with cop killing. And then there's hot coffee. Either way, it was a realism not offered by many games when 3 hit the market, and the 'sexiness' in part helped.

There are few if any characters in this medium as recognizable as mario.

Right. Nintendo is special like that.

Are you someone who genuinely finds men attractive? Because Fenix is absolutely not attractive, ESPECIALLY not in the way Schwarzenegger was. Just being muscular doesn't make an individual attractive dude.

I'm sorry, are you questioning my sexuality? I know when men are attractive. I know when women are attractive. To me, the sexiest man that ever lived is Freddie Mercury. But you know, I'm sure he's not considered universally attractive. Doesn't mean I can't find him attractive.

Same thing with Fenix. Square Jaw, good face, muscular build. Those are features that can be considered attractive. You're just being petulant by trying to say that Fenix isn't attractive, and trying to pass that as a fact. Fenix has attractive features. Just because they aren't attractive to you, doesn't warp reality to reject the notion that he has attractive features.

GTAV is one of the greatest selling games of all time.

Yes.

It genuinely seems like you have no interest in seeing or addressing the point of the thread. -___-

You mean the point of

"The argument that sex, (in most cases sexism) sells games is inherently flawed"?

Sex does sell. Your argument, that the notion of 'sex sells' is flawed, is in itself flawed because sex does sell.

 

[Laughing Banana]

Nah, sex doesn't sell, especially when it comes to video games. In fact, ti seemingly turns off and offends most gamers. I say 1 million times that if sex did sell, games like Onechanbara, X-Blades, DOAXBV, BMX XXX, Outlaw Golf, Guy Game and Rumble Roses] would of sold millions and millions effortlessly. Also I doubt games like Witcher 3 or GTA5 sell they way they do because of some sex scenes and hookers. Most Japanese games imo feature more visually attractive characters than most Western games. Do they sell better or get more attention? Rarely, if ever. Sex is probably the last thing that sells video games and that is indicative when you look at the top selling games each and every month for the last few years and decades.

You can make the argument that whatever amount of sales those games made, they would sell even less if they did not have sexual elements in them.

 

[Mega]

The point

--------------------------


you

Condescension

=

you

Maybe explain yourself more clearly because you didn't make a clear point. Half the time you type out thoughts in sentence fragments (not really finished but still concluded by long parenthesized sentences that are meant to prove something but didn't and which you expect everyone to agree with, like this).

Your argument boils down to the same thing as always: you dislike male-targeted sexualization and, to you, all of it is sexist and wrong and unnecessary and icky.

You mean the point of

"The argument that sex, (in most cases sexism) sells games is inherently flawed"?

Sex does sell. Your argument, that the notion of 'sex sells' is flawed, is in itself flawed because sex does sell.

For real. And this thread will be in the wrong forever or at least until basic human behavior changes in drastic fashion. Sex-negative feminism isn't convincing anyone in meaningful numbers.

 

[Acquiescence]

I dunno, I saw that ass gif and now I'm quite eager to try out Nier: Automata.

 

[squall23]

What about games that are mainly about the fanservice such as Senran Kagura? They're not selling millions of copies but they wouldn't exist if they weren't selling.

 

[Wesley-Sigma]

I think sex appeal can push sales for more esoteric titles -- but I do agree with the notion that AAA games like MGSV and FFXV were going to sell regardless of the women in the aforementioned games.

 

[plasmawave]

When a game has an "ugly" character as the main protagonist, usually it's offsetted with extreme violence. So it's either sex or violence.

 

[Crossing Eden]

Mario is not ugly. He doesn't have horrid moles or rashes, he doesn't have wrinkles, he doesn't have any defects in his face. He did start out as pixels but artwork existed then that was more or less translated to how he looked today.

The absence of wrinkles and facial markings doesn't automatically mark one as an attractive dude, let alone an overweight plumber.

Yes and? GTA is still filled with sex-laden escapades, and GTA made it's notoriety due to prostitutes and what you can do with them. Along with cop killing. And then there's hot coffee. Either way, it was a realism not offered by many games when 3 hit the market, and the 'sexiness' in part helped.

This is how sex is presented in GTA when Trevor is re-introduced, is this titillating to you?

I'm sorry, are you questioning my sexuality? I know when men are attractive. I know when women are attractive. To me, the sexiest man that ever lived is Freddie Mercury. But you know, I'm sure he's not considered universally attractive. Doesn't mean I can't find him attractive.

I'm saying that you're scraping the bottom of the barrel for what's considered attractive in this medium and especially what would be considered attractive, Marcus Fenix is a regular on "ugliest game character" lists. With his literal mountain of meat body type, he's not even idealized much less a shining example, he's ugly, and that's by design, he's not supposed to be attractive.

Same thing with Fenix. Square Jaw, good face, muscular build. Those are features that can be considered attractive. You're just being petulant by trying to say that Fenix isn't attractive, and trying to pass that as a fact. Fenix has attractive features. Just because they aren't attractive to you, doesn't warp reality to reject the notion that he has attractive features.

He's literally by design meant to be ugly. His default model is literally a perpetual scowl and they did this on purpose:

The early iterations of Marcus's face just didn't have character. Then J-Hawk [Jay Hawkins, an Epic artist] sketched out this rough, crazy head with scars and acne on the back of his neck and the bandanna — and that was Marcus. He just appeared." Getting Marcus to this place was the stuff of solid, nuts-and-bolts design. Giving him neck acne? That was a stroke of genius.

Neck acne...mmmm..so sexy.../s

You're trying to argue that because he vaguely has a square jaw and is a mountain of meat that that must mean he's attractive. When the reason he's a mountain of meat is so that they could save on budget and reuse animations for the locust.

You mean the point of

"The argument that sex, (in most cases sexism) sells games is inherently flawed"?

Sex does sell. Your argument, that the notion of 'sex sells' is flawed, is in itself flawed because sex does sell.

Read the content of the OP and then this discussion can continue past butmenareattractivetoo™

Condescension

=

you

Maybe explain yourself more clearly because you didn't make a clear point. Half the time you type out thoughts in sentence fragments (not really finished but still concluded by long parenthesized sentences that are meant to prove something but didn't and which you expect everyone to agree with, like this).

Many people ITT got the point but you seem to be having trouble with it.

Your argument boils down to the same thing as always: you dislike male-targeted sexualization and, to you, all of it is sexist and wrong and unnecessary and icky.

Read the OP.

 

[hodgy100]

i feel like a lot of people in here are conflating attractiveness selling vs objectification and sexualistion selling. The OP goes out of its way to point out characters that have overt sexualisation to the detriment of the overall product (quiet, cindy, can't comment on SFV as i've not played it)

there's a world of difference between OW characters that are attractive but are also extremely capable and cool in their own right as opposed to cindy who is basically just there to be a car pinup and an object of desire for prompto.

games that are selling sex is where sex sells applies. but if you aren't selling sex then sex doesn't sell ( if that makes sense).

and shrugging this off as "sex negative feminism" is really dismissive of the specific cases the OP is stating. I dont understand how calling out :

as overt sexualisation that hurts the overall product more than it "sells" as sex negative feminism.

 

[Crossing Eden]

i feel like a lot of people in here are conflating attractiveness selling vs objectification and sexualistion selling. The OP goes out of its way to point out characters that have overt sexualisation to the detriment of the overall product (quiet, cindy, can't comment on SFV as i've not played it)

there's a world of difference between OW characters that are attractive but are also extremely capable and cool in their own right as opposed to cindy who is basically just there to be a car pinup and an object of desire for prompto.

games that are selling sex is where sex sells applies. but if you aren't selling sex then sex doesn't sell ( if that makes sense).

Exactly, it's a pretty transparent deflection from the issue i'm talking about and it's just as frustrating.

 

[SaniOYOYOY]

even by looking at this thread only, some says sex sells and some doesnt. If you do attractive character design while sex in reality doesnt sells, you lose nothing. If you dont, however, and sex does sells in reality, you wont sell (infinite negative) (its crazy i get this opinion from an analysis for a certain game he he he). Its understandable if developers wants to play safe

and for sexuality( quiet, sex scenes), we have video game rating havent we? There are clear description on what goes where.

MGS5 was pg18,Witcher 3 is ERSB M (17), and fuck you if you said to me that I cant look into porn when Iam 18.

 

[Rhazer Fusion]

Mario is overweight, no sugarcoating that. Overalls don't form into a ball in your midsection unless you are overweight

Mario to me looks as overweight Sonic. I always thought Nintendo wanted to portray him as cute or even innocent looking in a sense.

 

[FallenGrace]

Not really. There is very little evidence that FFXV moved more copies because Cindy is dressed in that ridiculous getup.

It's one of the reasons I haven't bought it actually, so it had the opposite effect to me.

In these cases it feels like sex sells because they're specifically selling sexiness, and that's totally fine. It's the sexing up of things that are thematically and narratively non-sexy that feels cheap.

Totally agree. I am not against sexiness in games in anyway but I think that it should be appropriate for both the game and the moment. Forcing it in where it doesn't fit or isn't needed for the sake of it, like Cindy is totally off putting for me and unwanted.

 

[Village]

Exactly, it's a pretty transparent deflection from the issue i'm talking about and it's just as frustrating.

Im interested in how you feel about the sfv characters
More in depth

 

[paradise_circus]

I'm not sure OP, some of the most favourite games right now are "overly" sexualized like lol, overwatch or dota. Some games exaggerate it more than others though.

 

[hodgy100]

Mario to me looks as overweight Sonic. I always thought Nintendo wanted to portray him as cute or even innocent looking in a sense.

they redesigned sonic to make him fit his attributes better....

 

[BreezyLimbo]

The absence of wrinkles and facial markings doesn't automatically mark one as an attractive dude, let alone an overweight plumber.

It doesn't make them unattractive either.

This is how sex is presented in GTA when Trevor is re-introduced, is this titillating to you?

That's not the only way sex is presented in GTA? Your cherry picked examples don't reject all the other ways sex is presented in GTA.

I'm saying that you're scraping the bottom of the barrel for what's considered attractive in this medium and especially what would be considered attractive, Marcus Fenix is a regular on "ugliest game character" lists. With his literal mountain of meat body type, he's not even idealized much less a shining example, he's ugly, and that's by design, he's not supposed to be attractive.


He's literally by design meant to be ugly. His default model is literally a perpetual scowl and they did this on purpose:

And Stallone is paralyzed on the side of his face, this defect(like fenix's scowl and scar) don't make him unattractive. And that's just the truth. Fenix as a character is not objectively ugly.

Read the content of the OP and then this discussion can continue past butmentoo™

Feel free to adjust your thread title to 'female sexual objectification doesn't necessarily sell games' instead of your catch all 'sex sells is flawed'?

Many people ITT got the point but you seem to be having trouble with it.

Read the OP.

And many people ITT understand that your statements are flawed? Then again I don't resort to argumentem ad populum to make my points.

 

[miller.skippins]

Mario to me looks as overweight Sonic. I always thought Nintendo wanted to portray him as cute or even innocent looking in a sense.

i think of mario as 'baby fat' rather than obese anyway...also, he's a cartoony character so normal body proportion clearly doesn't really applies to him.

 

[Laughing Banana]

Exactly, it's a pretty transparent deflection from the issue i'm talking about and it's just as frustrating.

Your problem is saying "Overt sexualization is terrible"--something that I believe many in here would agree, without a doubt--is suddenly the same with how absolute you infer that "Sex doesn't sell."

They are not inherently intertwined with one another. I can say overt sexualization is terrible while at the same time acknowledging that sex can also be a factor on why people buy something.

It is like your topic's thread title is about one thing but inside the thread you are preaching about another thing entirely.

 

[Crossing Eden]

Im interested how you feel about the sfv characters
More in depth

Street fighter five's male cast is absolutely filled to the brim with diverse body shapes and silhouettes.

Which is typical for a fighting game. Meanwhile the same cannot be said for the women, Laura is the tallest woman in the game. And she's barely taller than Chun Li, they also all have incredibly similar body types and only one of them isn't sexualized.

It's a pretty clear dissonance that's disappointing in this day and age and part of why I didn't support it, it certainly doesn't seem like increasingly Chun Li's thigh and breast size yet again, as well as Cammy's worked out for Capcom in the end considering the sales of the game.

Your problem is saying "Overt sexualization is terrible"--something that I believe many in here would agree, without a doubt--is suddenly equal with "Sex doesn't sell."

They are not inherently intertwined with one another. I can say overt sexualization is terrible while at the same time acknowledging that sex can also be a factor on why people buy something.

I'm saying that the issue is that people constantly bring up sex sells in defense of overtly sexist elements in games in an attempt to stifle discussion/criticism , like the examples in the OP. In that context, these games likely sold what they did in spite of those out of place elements, not because of them.

 

[CrimsonSquall]

Mario to me looks as overweight Sonic. I always thought Nintendo wanted to portray him as cute or even innocent looking in a sense.

Okay which Sonic. If we are talking original sonic u may have legs to stand on but not modern Sonic.

 

[Rhazer Fusion]

You can make the argument that whatever amount of sales those games made, they would sell even less if they did not have sexual elements in them.

True, sex most likely did contribute to the sales of those games, but to a very small community or audience. When I hear "sex sells", I suppose I always insinuate that the person means sexiness will automatically attract a plethora of sales and money which in reality is rarely the case. Violence sells more than sex, especially in video games. People were playing Mortal Kombat because of the gratuitous violence, not the barely clothed women for example.

 

[V_Arnold]

Some of the "cause it does", "deal with it, there is a demand" stuff is just straight up ignorant of how markets work.

Different segments exists. Catering to a specific audience for the cost of scaring away a different segment DOES NOT make it a smart business decision.

Remember that mythical opportunity cost?
We DO need the "receipts" for proving that the biggest selling games do so only because they show cleavage.

Which is, by the way, blatantly false in itself: the biggest selling franchises, like Call of Duty, World of Warcraft and even the likes of Battlefield, or even RDR/GTA do NOT base their gamplay around sex, do not consider sexy characters as a selling point (with the exception of GTA and prostitution, obviously), and prefer to display VIOLENCE as main selling point rather than sex.

So where are these big sellers that make the juggernaughts of winter season move out of their way that focus primarily on sex and sexy females? Which are the 10+ million selller booty-hunting games that warrant such adamant position from the folks shouting "sex sells, deal with it"?

Seems to me that violence sells MUCH more , and the games industry is just about choking on blood at this point. So where is the sex?

 

[hodgy100]

Okay which Sonic. If we are talking original sonic u may have legs to stand on but not modern Sonic.

I think he's clearly talking about classic sonic, but Sega redesigned sonic specifically so that his design matches his capabilities (and "personality") better. like an omission that their original design didn't make much sense (even through i do prefer it honestly)

 

[Kinyou]

So how come that pop music is filled to the brim with it?

 

[Mega]

Many people ITT got the point but you seem to be having trouble with it.

I read your sloppy and typo-laden OP. I understood it and I disagree with it, as did many others. You're veering off into shitty territory by resorting to telling people they're "confused" for not agreeing with your shoddy premises.

You make tenuous connections and draw from cherry picked examples to prove the same point of your thread. You still can't even address my earlier point that the research shows men and women are drawn to very different types of games and that that's where the focus should be: new games from the ground up that cater to two very different groups. Women aren't going out in droves and buying Tomb Raider and its sequel, especially not just because they slapped a main character on the cover that you don't find offensive and which meets your strict requirements of acceptability, because they don't want to play Tomb Raider at all. Or Halo. Or GTA. Or CoD. And so on.

I could make the argument that you're sexist because you basically want a simple coat of paint via lame, safe character designs slapped onto games that by design and to their very core cater to men, as if that's all that's needed. And that furthermore your deep interest in animation and character design is making you overemphasize this one area as the reason women aren't buying the games in greater numbers and drawing incorrect conclusions that sexism and sexy characters is playing a singular huge role here. You want women to play the games you, a man, enjoy playing and probably cannot come to terms with the millions of women who are already happily playing games that already cater to them, whether that's Splatoon or Candy Crush.

 

[Laughing Banana]

I'm saying that the issue is that people constantly bring up sex sells in defense of overtly sexist elements in games in an attempt to stifle discussion/criticism , like the examples in the OP. In that context, these games likely sold what they did in spite of those out of place elements, not because of them.

Like I said, "People use sex = sells to defend overt sexualization is terrible" does not automatically mean "sex doesn't sell!"

You can criticize the former while acknowledging that the latter may or may not be true.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

I read your sloppy and typo-laden OP. I understood it and I disagree with it, as did many others. You're veering off into shitty territory by resorting to telling people they're "confused" for not agreeing with your shoddy premises.
.

Not to mention questioning my sexuality because I find a supposed 'unattractive' design, attractive.

That was fucked up Eden. Like seriously bro. I'm not here questioning what you find attractive. I'm trying to tell you that your tastes aren't everyones tastes.

 

[zoukka]

It's one way to sell a specific product to a specific audience.

We have seen more variety in the recent years in how sex appeal has been tackled in video games and it's great! Things that have a lot of variety in body types, personalities and sexual orientations do sell!

 

[Rhazer Fusion]

Street fighter five's male cast is absolutely filled to the brim with diverse body shapes and silhouettes.

Which is typical for a fighting game. Meanwhile the same cannot be said for the women, Laura is the tallest woman in the game. And she's barely taller than Chun Li, they also all have incredibly similar body types and only one of them isn't sexualized.

It's a pretty clear dissonance that's disappointing in this day and age and part of why I didn't support it, it certainly doesn't seem like increasingly Chun Li's thigh and breast size yet again, as well as Cammy's worked out for Capcom in the end considering the sales of the game.


I'm saying that the issue is that people constantly bring up sex sells in defense of overtly sexist elements in games in an attempt to stifle discussion/criticism , like the examples in the OP. In that context, these games likely sold what they did in spite of those out of place elements, not because of them.

I actually disagree about the SF5 women. Street Fighter is one of the few games that does not have a problem giving women muscular bodies, thickness and an athletic appearance which is seemingly forbidden and rare in most video games. Sure, the body styles are not vastly different quite to the magnitude of the men, but at least some of them look strong and like fighters. Besides Birdie's pot bell which the just got in SF5, of course all of the men are ripped beyond reality and can make any body builder blush. Even Birdie's arms are thicker than most grown men entire bodies.

 

[Crossing Eden]

It doesn't make them unattractive either.

The point is that Mario is about as attractive as a pixar character, as in, not at all. He's too stylized.

That's not the only way sex is presented in GTA? Your cherry picked examples don't reject all the other ways sex is presented in GTA.

That is the way sex is forced on the player. GTA sells first and foremost with violence.

And Stallone is paralyzed on the side of his face, this defect(like fenix's scowl and scar) don't make him unattractive. And that's just the truth. Fenix as a character is not objectively ugly.

Except that Stallone wasn't literally designed by a team of people be ugly. Marcus is unattractive by design just like Trevor is, take the L on that one.

Feel free to adjust your thread title to 'female sexual objectification doesn't necessarily sell games' instead of your catch all 'sex sells is flawed'?

Maybe read the OP instead of the title. FFS the title even says specifically what i'm talking about

The argument that sex, (in most cases sexism)

as does the OP.

I actually disagree about the SF5 women. Street Fighter is one of the few games that does not have a problem giving women muscular bodies, thickness and an athletic appearance which is seemingly forbidden and rare in most video games. Sure, the body styles are not vastly different quite to the magnitude of the men, but at least some of them look strong and like fighters. Besides Birdie's pot bell which the just got in SF5, of course all of the men are ripped beyond reality and can make any body builder blush. Even Birdie's arms are thicker than most grown men entire bodies.

They give women muscular appearances but at the same time the majority of them are incredibly sexualized. EVERYONE is ripped in SF but not everyone is sexualized. It's a design flaw that all the women share compared to the men that sticks out even more as they seemingly aren't allowed to have diverse body types as even returning characters got homogenized to fit the large breasts and incredibly wide hips thing.

 

[CrimsonSquall]

I think Marcus is not an attractive character. He serves hyper masculine DOM niche territory tho so it's not impossible to say that he can't be however.

 

[Nickle]

You could argue that hyper-sexualized characters that don't seem to fit in with the rest of the game's characters (such as Quiet or Cindy) ultimately turn off more customers then they attract, but that's not the same thing as "sex doesn't sell".

 

[hichanbis]

Sex sells everything OP.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

The point is that Mario is about as attractive as a pixar character, as in, not at all. He's too stylized.

Don't go into the rabbit hole of people that find pixar characters attractive. You might have your mind blown that other peoples tastes do not, in fact, conform to your own.

That is the way sex is forced on the player. GTA sells first and foremost with violence.

They freely use sex though.

Except that Stallone wasn't literally designed by a team of people be ugly. Marcus is unattractive by design just like Trevor is, take the L on that one.

You brought up Trevor? I don't care about Trevor. I would say Fenix is more attractive than Trevor, by a mile.

Maybe read the OP instead of the title. FFS the title even says specifically what i'm talking about as does the OP.

Using 'Sex Sells' is well, disingenuous since your main point was anything but sex sells. Because sex sells. "Sexism Sells" is something completely different. Sexism for the most part, does not sale as well as sex, sex including the umbrella of a characters attraction, whether physical or personality. My argument is and has been that Sex does, indeed sell, and that both sexes are inherent to that fact, and to use 'sex sells' makes your generalization of what sex sells means flawed when your argument is that 'sexism sells is flawed'. Sexism=/=sex. Sexism includes sex, but sex is many a thing that doesn't necessarily mean objectifying a person like sexism does.

 

[Famassu]

because majority of its audience are male. Yes, there are more female gamers than ever but still alot more male gamers.

This is just blatantly untrue. Some genres are dominated by men but there are other genres where women are the more numerous demography (IIRC (some) MMOs have more female than male players). Nowadays gamers overall are roughly 50/50, AFAIK.

Also, you don't seem to understand that a majority of the audience is male for those kinds of games because they've been made by men for men. They have created the situation themselves, a situation where a big portion of potential customers are being shut out with such content. It's not just some natural fact of life that men like games more, it's because the kind of sexist content is off-putting to a lot of people and that's EXACTLY the reason why there should be a change in how sexual content is handled. It doesn't need to be demolished entirely, nothing wrong with the occasional dudebro shooter or whatever, but there needs to be change on average. Removing overly sexist, objectifying content has no negative effect on the overall quality of a game but it can make those games feel more welcoming to all people instead of just aiming for the petulant manchildren.

Same thing as why there are so many sexualize YA novels cater to ladies only but not to men. Because the audience for that medium is primarily females.

You're not making the good argument you think you are. Have you maybe not thought that YA novels being bought "only by women" (is that even true?) is something that deserves criticism and should change? And the "sexualization" in YA novels is very different from the kind of sexualization female characters are usually put through. Just having attractive men for the YA novels' female main characters to fall in love with is not necessarily sexualization. Men are rarely just masses of muscle (or pretty boys, if that's some womens'/YA novels' thing) who are there waiting for the women to save them or do everything for them, but actively participate in the story.

you said it like Porn isn't the main driving factor being the success of internet streaming videos and VR...

I'd like to see some studies that confirm what you're saying. Porn is major but is it really bigger than Netflix, Youtube, Twitch, sports streaming etc. put together?

Just what is wrong with indulging abit with sexual fantasy? Men do it. Women do it. There's the demand. Thus the supply. I don't see anything wrong with it.

Nothing wrong with sexual fantasies. We all have them (well, most of us, there are people who aren't all that interested in sex). It's just that it doesn't have to be this all-encompassing thing where anything & everything has to have naked people in every scenario thought possible, even when it seems dumb & unnecessary & unfitting for that scenario.

I'm a sexual being and I do not need every single woman in my games & other entertainment to look like it came from something that is actually the porn version of the game I'm playing/entertainment I'm consuming. It's like, a lot of stories wouldn't lose anything if you take out the random ass-shots & revealing clothes, whereas the overly sexualized, objectifying style can be harmful to the story and/or even seem off-putting to a lot of people for a variety of reasons.

The day all forms of media loses all of their sexuality of both genders is when mankind stop having sexual desires.

Dear god. No one is saying there can be no content with anything sexual. Stop taking things to such idiotic extremes. The problem is about the context, execution and how skewed it all is towards one gender being more objectified and less active in their roles in entertainment, not that there is ever any content that has anything to do with sex/attractive things.

There's nothing wrong with naked people if there's something like a sex scene involving two characters in a relationship (or just having a one-night stand if the story goes that way) or if that, for whatever other contextually appropriate reason, fits the scenario otherwise. Maybe just don't make a game that handles themes like war/conflict, child soldiers, slavery & death aaaaaand then make the sleaziest female character design with the dumbest excuse ever for wearing such clothes (even though she's supposed to be some professional soldier) and then stick those boobies and ass in the face of the player whenever that character is shown. It's, like, imagine if someone made a game like Hurt Locker and then: enter the female main character who wears nothing but bras and the shortest skirt imaginable and then the bomb defusing scene focuses on her ass and tits hanging as she bends down to defuse the bomb. It's just dumb and wanting that kind of shit to disappear from games is not going to cause humankind's sex drive & sexual desires to disappear.

A lot of it also has to do with how shit is handled. Nothing wrong with showing some skin (especially if it fits the setting, it's dumb if someone is running around in skimpy bikinis in some winter wonderland) but if the camera angles, animations etc. constantly emphasize showing as much T&A as possible, that's just unnecessarily objectifying and just feels dumb, especially if it's a game about more or less serious matters. Of course it also matters that, like, 99% of the time the sexualized characters are women. Even when they are male like some Marvel movies showing some shirtless Chris hawtness, it's maybe a brief shirtless shot, not the camera constantly sneaking in ass-shots & carassing their bodies like nothing else in their characters matters.

There's nothing wrong with porn/hentai games existing in their own slightly separate vacuum, but that kind of (often objectifying, sexist, racist or otherwise a bit questionable content) content & treatment of characters doesn't have to be included in anything & everything just to save humanity's sex drive.

and if sex sells...then the publishers are just supplying the demand...so i don't see what's wrong with that.

I mean....twilight and 50 shades are basically 'sexist' stories catered for ladies and i don't see any guys complaining about it (other than the dudes being dragged by their ladies to watch it)..

The men might be sexualized in literature & movies aimed at women, but the men are often still dominant in books/movies like Twilight & usually have a major active role in those tales vs. the sexualized women often being just there to be gawked at, victims and/or far more powerless than the men.

Attractiveness does sell, but there's a difference between having a character like Lara Croft or Nathan Drake (the modern Lara Croft) who are attractive people and pleasant to look at vs. a character like Cindy in FFXV who was only made to please the male (& some female) gaze with zero regards to her role in the game.