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[Mutant]

It's a case of both.

You don't think marketing execs aren't pushing for these character designs as a means of merchandising them further (i.e dlc, outfits, toys etc)?

Artists who make art on their own time however, aren't influenced by these forces unless they are seeking money (i.e patreon).

I'd argue that Fire Emblem was basically resurrected because of waifus though.

It's not an end all solution, but it happens in instances.

Fire Emblem got resurrected because they put out a critically acclaimed one with good production values and assessible mechanics on a popular handheld in a time where demand for turn based tactical games was up and the only other option was X-Com.

I don't recall, back when Awakens was popping off, the Waifu element really being brought up in the wider discussions the same way as, let's say, Overwatch.

 

[SciencePilot]

It seems like there's two separate questions being addressed here.

1. Does sex cause video games to sell more?
2. Suppose sex does cause video games to sell more. Is it worth the negative social effects?

For question 1, I don't think this can be answered without data, and I haven't seen the data.
For question 2, I think in many cases it is not worth it. For the Street Fighter, Final Fantasy, and Metal Gear Solid examples provided, personally my call is that it was not a good idea in those cases.

 

[Mendrox]

This isn't really an argument. Fire Emblem is at forefront of the Japanese SRPG currently because Int Sys approached the game to appeal to newcomer explicitly after the poor production values of New Mystery, Shadow Dragon and Radiant Dawn.

While Radiant Dawn was a pretty mediocre looking Wii Game with some good looking CG. Awakening was one of the 3DS games with some of best production values at the time and made an incredible case for the idea of having an anime entirely in 3D CG.

Compare the marketing for Radiant Dawn and Awakening and it's night and day.

The argument of Waifus is nebulous at best. It was production values and some brilliant marketing that sold FE and made it into the face of the genre currently. Then the relationship systems were spread via word of mouth. And both Men and Women were appealed to. FE has a substantial Female demographic as well as male demographic which has not changed even today.

I didnt See any marketing in television in europe for Awakening. I wasnt interested in the series cause the old designs looked too oldschool which they changed into more modern waifu anime style and suddenly many of my friends and me back then were interested. Any fire Emblem discussion is about the relationships and prefered waifu. The relationships were a big part which gave the series a New big door in the West which wasnt there before. Hell, german review videos almost all concentrated on that aspect.

I even played with perma death like all my friends so that was never a reason. Awakening is also easy compared to the other games. Even FF Tactics Advance was more difficult.

Edit: also good production values? The characters didnt even have feet lol there were already games like Abyss (ok a Port) and Mario 3D World which had moren of that.

 

[Mr. Pointy]

FTFY

2B'S ass is there for people to make fan art, cosplay, make SFM, etc. Basically free marketing. It's a niche crowd, but it's a crowd that will evangelize a game to a larger niche crowd that are more likely to buy copies of it outside of the usual release period, double dip on ports, buy DLC, Play ARTS Kai figures, etc.

 

[Brian_FETO]

It is though lol. Do you really think developers go out of their way to sex their male protagonists up? Who cares what fans do outside of the game's intended portrayals of that character getting sexed up fanart. The discussion here is about developers sexualizing women more often than men in video games.

The discussion in this thread is about the notion that "sex sells"

The points being brought up about the differences in male/female sexualization in games are completely valid. The pandering gazey shots are common for women and near nonexistent for men. However, those are not the only form of sex appeal. It's extreme examples

Sex appeal can exist without being turned up to 11 at the expense of everything else and embarrassing everyone involved.

The confusion in the thread's position is mixing "problematic" with "sex sells". Something can be problematic and still sell the product

 

[plasmawave]

FTFY

Where were the marketing?

 

[JordanN]

My dude get that shit out of here. Pretty sure nude mods aren't allowed to be posted on this site. :|

https://youtu.be/YJnfMRvF8bo?t=27
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=viqctbaA9Ec

 

[nbnt]

I feel like people in this thread don't know the distinction between the games in the OP and the games that are built solely on boobs and butts, those games have an audience, they don't sell billions but sex does sell in that case.

And I agree with the OP, in most other cases sex doesn't really sell. It's at worst when big, known franchises try to shove boobs on your face thinking that will help them sell a couple of million copies more, it's just sad.

 

[Crossing Eden]

2B'S ass is there for people to make fan art, cosplay, make SFM, etc. Basically free marketing. It's a niche crowd, but it's a crowd that will evangelize a game to a larger niche crowd that will buy copies of it outside of the usual release period, DLC, Play ARTS Kai figures, etc.

You're projecting as the dude straight up said he didn't mean for everyone to send him sexy fanart but fanart in general and that some of the fanart made him uncomfortable. Imagine that. I also very much doubt he even knows what SFM is.

https://youtu.be/YJnfMRvF8bo?t=27
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=viqctbaA9Ec

Oh ok. My mistake, carry on then.

I feel like people in this thread don't know the distinction between the games in the OP and the games that are built solely on boobs and butts, those games have an audience, they don't sell billions but sex does sell in that case.

And I agree with the OP, in most other cases sex doesn't really sell. It's at worst when big, known franchises try to shove boobs on your face thinking that will help them sell a couple of million copies more, it's just sad.

Exactly.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

The discussion in this thread is about the notion that "sex sells"

The points being brought up about the differences in male/female sexualization in games are completely valid. The pandering gazey shots are common for women and near nonexistent for men. However, those are not the only form of sex appeal. It's extreme examples

Sex appeal can exist without being turned up to 11 at the expense of everything else and embarrassing everyone involved.

The confusion in the thread's position is mixing "problematic" with "sex sells". Something can be problematic and still sell the product

That's the point I'm trying to make.

"Sex sells" doesn't just mean using the female sex to pander.

The topic title is a statement that includes both sexes.

 

[Nickle]

I thought this thread would have sales data to back up the points.

 

[Screaming Meat]

2B'S ass is there for people to make fan art, cosplay, make SFM, etc. Basically free marketing. It's a niche crowd, but it's a crowd that will evangelize a game to a larger niche crowd that are more likely to buy copies of it outside of the usual release period, double dip on ports, buy DLC, Play ARTS Kai figures, etc.

You're talking about a small niche. They aren't the only marketing channels they engaged, and her butt didn't single-handedly sell the game. It got attention, which is something I broached earlier in the thread.

Where were the marketing?

Are you kidding...?

 

[Crossing Eden]

That's the point I'm trying to make.

"Sex sells" doesn't just mean using the female sex to pander.

The topic title is a statement that includes both sexes.

Tell that to the gaming community who gets so uncomfortable with male sexualization that they damn near forced SE to change a character design for a mobile game and only uses the argument that sex sells whenever the objectification of women in games gets criticized.

 

[plasmawave]

Right, you're talking about a small niche. They aren't the only marketing channels they engaged, and her butt didn't single-handedly sell the game. The demo, for instance.



Are you kidding...?

No, I didn't see a single ad for this game.

 

[ArjanN]

Fewer than 100k copies of BMX XXX were sold.

Counterpoint: More than 1 copy of BMX XXX was sold.

 

[Ascenion]

Sex does sell. That really isn't debatable. This thread just seems focused on the blatant sexualization aspect which is skewed in gaming, yes. At the same time you can't ignore the complexity of sex. Sex is nuanced to hell and back. You may not even realize that the subtle sex appeal of the character is what reaches out to you. Nathan Drake is absolutely sexualized intent or no.

This notion of heroic idealism is true while at the same time sexualization is imo a key part of that. I don't think you can use heroic idealism without sex appeal. Nathan Drake is the ideal Everyman. If you're putting yourself into his shoes, he's heroic, handsome, strong all of these character traits. On a level, physical attractiveness aside, that's sexually appealing to women. You can argue that's sexually appealing to men by way of it being sexually appealing to women. Nathan Drake gets girls, if I'm Drake I also get girls. That's cool so people want that and gravitate towards that. Bam the sexual aspect is there.

Sex sells is a way more broad ideology than I believe this thread is giving it credit for. It underlies almost all forms of media be it subtle or blatant or any combination. There are absolutely problems with it that require refinement, equality and tact, especially in this medium. It's one of those thing where I feel you'd only miss it if it was gone.

 

[Screaming Meat]

No, I didn't see a single ad for this game.

Therefore, there must have been no marketing...? You heard there was a demo, right? You saw reviews and previews too.

Did you see this?

 

[BreezyLimbo]

Tell that to the gaming community who gets so uncomfortable with male sexualization that they damn near forced SE to change a character design for a mobile game and only uses the argument that sex sells whenever the objectification of women in games gets criticized.

Ok?

The statement 'Sex Sells' still doesn't just apply to the female.

 

[GTR R35_Supra RZ]

OP, i asked for this, and I'm OK with that.

 

[miller.skippins]

Men do complain about twilight and 50 shades, and YA novels in general. And here's the thing, there's absolutely something inherently fucked up about constantly presenting one gender as objectified regardless of context for the sake of possible sales in this day and age where more money is to be had from inclusivity considering how many women play games regularly.

you said it like Porn isn't the main driving factor being the success of internet streaming videos and VR...

Just what is wrong with indulging abit with sexual fantasy? Men do it. Women do it. There's the demand. Thus the supply. I don't see anything wrong with it. The day all forms of media loses all of their sexuality of both genders is when mankind stop having sexual desires.

Unless you are telling me we should inspire to attaining zenhood or something.

 

[Crossing Eden]

Ok?

The statement 'Sex Sells' still doesn't just apply to the female.

In the context of video games it mostly does, we're not talking about the film and music industries here where things are much less skewed.

you said it like Porn isn't the main driving factor being the success of internet streaming videos and VR...

You should pay more attention to outside of GAF as VR is a lot more interesting than being boiled down to porn.

Just what is wrong with indulging abit with sexual fantasy? Men do it. Women do it. There's the demand. Thus the supply.

The demands are literally the opposite and we've been seeing the results of that all gen. And the issue is how much it skews towards one gender specifically.

I don't see anything wrong with it.

Because you're the one being pandered to first and foremost.

 

[Napalm_Frank]

Therefore, there must have been no marketing...? You heard there was a demo, right? You saw reviews and previews too.

Did you see this?

So that's why Tearaway/Puppeteer/Gravity Rush2 was a success!

And yes, I am joking <3. I don't know how they marketed Nier in JP.

edit: no editing allowed!

 

[MoonFrog]

Sex does sell. That really isn't debatable. This thread just seems focused on the blatant sexualization aspect which is skewed in gaming, yes. At the same time you can't ignore the complexity of sex. Sex is nuanced to hell and back. You may not even realize that the subtle sex appeal of the character is what reaches out to you. Nathan Drake is absolutely sexualized intent or no.

This notion of heroic idealism is true while at the same time sexualization is imo a key part of that. I don't think you can use heroic idealism without sex appeal. Nathan Drake is the ideal Everyman. If you're putting yourself into his shoes, he's heroic, handsome, strong all of these character traits. On a level, physical attractiveness aside, that's sexually appealing to women. You can argue that's sexually appealing to men by way of it being sexually appealing to women. Nathan Drake gets girls, if I'm Drake I also get girls. That's cool so people want that and gravitate towards that. Bam the sexual aspect is there.

Sex sells is a way more broad ideology than I believe this thread is giving it credit for. It underlies almost all forms of media be it subtle or blatant or any combination. There are absolutely problems with it that require refinement, equality and tact, especially in this medium. It's one of those thing where I feel you'd only miss it if it was gone.

Yep. Sex isn't only oddly naked women moaning and throwing themselves at you. Which ties back into the Awakening discussion...

 

[miller.skippins]

In the context of video games it mostly does, we're not talking about the film and music industries here where things are much less skewed.

because majority of its audience are male. Yes, there are more female gamers than ever but still alot more male gamers.

Same thing as why there are so many sexualize YA novels cater to ladies only but not to men. Because the audience for that medium is primarily females.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

In the context of video games it mostly does, we're not talking about the film and music industries here where things are much less skewed.

Do you not think it's damaging that to be a 'hero', you have to have a certain body type that's sexy enough to 'win' the woman whilst also being handsome?

It's not about it being skewed, it's that this thread was made with the premise of 'sex sells' whilst only including one part of the equation and not both.

So yes, sex sells in the gaming industry. Whether it's the male with the perfect body and face, or the perfect female who is the 'catch' for the hero.

 

[plasmawave]

Therefore, there must have been no marketing...? You heard there was a demo, right? You saw reviews and previews too.

Did you see this?

I guess you're right but I was looking for stuff like TV and magazine ads. So I guess the same could be said about Horizon too then. It was the marketing.

 

[Mega]

Sex does sell. I'm going to trust professionals in advertising and marketing across a wide variety of entertainment industries, with years of research to back them up, over a guy on the Internet handpicking articles for a loaded message board topic.

 

[Death Penalty]

So wait wait, you want to see more female representation in games but you don't like sexualization?

Seems a little bit contradictory.

 

[Napalm_Frank]

Sex does sell. I'm going to trust professionals in advertising and marketing across a wide variety of entertainment industries, with years of research to back them up, over a guy on the Internet handpicking articles for a loaded message board topic.

Now we just need to get the message to Reggie so they can start development on Metroid.

 

[Crossing Eden]

because majority of its audience are male. Yes, there are more female gamers than ever but still alot more male gamers.

Receipts.gif Gaming isn't a boys club despite how badly some men want it to be.

Do you not think it's damaging that to be a 'hero', you have to have a certain body type that's sexy enough to 'win' the woman whilst also being handsome?

Let's not pretend that male characters aren't allowed to be old, scarred, obese, out of shape, clean shaven, beardly, etc. without so much as a peep from the gaming community compared to women where representation is SO bad that people legitimately speculated that the women in ME:A were intentionally made "ugly" in order to appeal to the SJW boogeyman. Think about that.

It's not about it being skewed, it's that this thread was made with the premise of 'sex sells' whilst only including one part of the equation and not both.

In this context it is, I have never once in my years on this forum seen someone criticize Nathan Drake for being too sexy and thus was told "well sex sells." That's the issue, sex sells only applies when the discussion of treating women equally is brought up. Followed by absolutely desperate attempts to cite mentoo&#8482;

So yes, sex sells in the gaming industry. Whether it's the male with the perfect body and face, or the perfect female who is the 'catch' for the hero.

Attraction!=the context presented in this thread.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

Now we just need to get the message to Reggie so they can start development on Metroid.

Oh god

Their version of sex sells is making samus into a passive, subservient adjutant to her commander

pls no

 

[miller.skippins]

Do you not think it's damaging that to be a 'hero', you have to have a certain body type that's sexy enough to 'win' the woman whilst also being handsome?

It's not about it being skewed, it's that this thread was made with the premise of 'sex sells' whilst only including one part of the equation and not both.

So yes, sex sells in the gaming industry. Whether it's the male with the perfect body and face, or the perfect female who is the 'catch' for the hero.

Here's a question to you...do you want to see a pimpled bucktoothed han solo kissing an obese princess leia in Star Wars?

i am not trying to demean anyone or fat shaming but c'mon!!! The reason why we read and watch epic fantasies of fiction with large than life heroes and princesses is because they are better than real life. If the Aragon is limped with flatfoot or Harry Potter is stuttering student in hogwarts, then what's the point of fantasy?

Also, you are cherrypicking my comments.

What about the YA novels point i am making? Care to rebuke that?

 

[Napalm_Frank]

Since Kingdom Hearts is celebrating 15 year anniversary tomorrow we can all ask ourselves if there is a correlation between surprisingly female heavy fanbase and fuckin insane amount of gay/male fan porn.

 

[AlexFlame116]

I guess you're right but I was looking for stuff like TV and magazine ads. So I guess the same could be said about Horizon too then. It was the marketing.

There were/are definitely ads on TV and on magazines. I've seen them.

Oh god

Their version of sex sells is making samus into a passive, subservient adjutant to her commander

pls no

Pretty sure that was Team Ninja and whoever the director was. Nintendo probably just okayed it.

 

[Rickenslacker]

Tell that to the gaming community who gets so uncomfortable with male sexualization that they damn near forced SE to change a character design for a mobile game and only uses the argument that sex sells whenever the objectification of women in games gets criticized.

Just for my own interest, what game and character was that?

 

[Mega]

Now we just need to get the message to Reggie so they can start development on Metroid.

As a general rule and to sufficiently older audiences, sex sells and it's silly to argue against it. I'm not suggesting it be shoehorned into kid-friendly Nintendo franchises.

 

[Death Penalty]

Just for my own interest, what game and character was that?

Wol in Mobius Final Fantasy. His outfit was (and still is) just godawful.

 

[miller.skippins]

Receipts.gif Gaming isn't a boys club despite how badly some men want it to be.

when did i said it's a boy's club. I am saying it's mostly boys with a growing ladies population. But it's still primarily boys.

The supplier of video games only cater to demand. You want games & other media to be less sexualized? Fine...it will need to stop selling first.

There's no point in proclaiming on higher moral grounds. Market conditions always..ALWAYS rule over whatever you think is right (or not).

The porn industry will still sell regardless of your moral grounds.

The porn industry will only collapse when people stop watching it.

 

[Crossing Eden]

Just for my own interest, what game and character was that?

Mobius final fantasy.

when did i said it's a boy's club. I am saying it's mostly boys with a growing ladies population. But it's still primarily boys.

Again cite a source.

The supplier of video games only cater to demand. You want games & other media to be less sexualized? Fine...it will need to stop selling first.

Look at any e3 from the past few years and tell me that gaming hasn't already been changing. It HAS stopped selling. It's been reflected in many triple A games.

There's no point in proclaiming on higher moral grounds. Market conditions always..ALWAYS rule over whatever you think is right (or not).

And the current market is comprised of men and women.

The porn industry will still sell regardless of your moral grounds.

The porn industry will only collapse when people stop watching it.

And before anyone mentions hentai games, I feel a distinction should be made between "sex sells products" and "sex sells AS a product".

Tits in a standard RPG don't necessarily sell the RPG but tits in a hentai visual novel are obviously the whole point.

I have argued against this too and I don't think there's any statistics that prove that sex helps in selling a product that is not inherently about that.

 

[Screaming Meat]

I guess you're right but I was looking for stuff like TV and magazine ads. So I guess the same could be said about Horizon too then. It was the marketing.

It's 2017! There are tons of marketing channels outside of TV and print. Some are obvious, some not so much. It's all about getting the head space. The marketing budget for N:A was most definitely higher than OG N. There are other factors at play (nostalgia, hardcore fans, larger media reach, higher number of users, etc.), but the marketing budget was probably the largest one.

Yup. I think it was a huge part of the initial interest in Horizon. Its long-term popularity, however, will be down to the quality of the game (as is the case with all games). It's rare for a game to capture an audience based on word-of-mouth alone, but it does happen. Horizon is not an example of that.

 

[Poor GRIMES]

when did i said it's a boy's club. I am saying it's mostly boys with a growing ladies population. But it's still primarily boys.

The supplier of video games only cater to demand. You want games & other media to be less sexualized? Fine...it will need to stop selling first.

There's no point in proclaiming on higher moral grounds. Market conditions always..ALWAYS rule over whatever you think is right (or not).

The porn industry will still sell regardless of your moral grounds.

The porn industry will only collapse when people stop watching it.

Okay but why are you comparing video games to porno?

 

[Napalm_Frank]

As a general rule and to sufficiently older audiences, sex sells and it's silly to argue against it. I'm not suggesting it be shoehorned into kid-friendly Nintendo franchises.

I was obviously jokiny but I think one of the biggest issues of Metroid today is that kids don't particularly give a shit about it while being on platforms with very large young audience.

I doubt a big slice of FE sales is kids either.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

Here's a question to you...do you want to see a pimpled bucktoothed han solo kissing an obese princess leia in Star Wars?

i am not trying to demean anyone or fat shaming but c'mon!!! The reason why we read and watch epic fantasies of fiction with large than life heroes and princesses is because they are better than real life. If the Aragon is limped with flatfoot or Harry Potter is stuttering student in hogwarts, then what's the point of fantasy?

That's my whole point

The reason why sexual objectification sucks is because it creates unrealistic expectations for both the male and female. Yeah, Aragorn is a rugged King, Han solo is a rugged merc who says the right thing, harry potter is...an average looking wizard.Harry Potter is probably not the best example as the characters are 'average' at most and described as such? I think the biggest draw for Harry Potter is the magic and fantasy.

Now that you bring it up, Harry Potter is probably the most perfect type of story that you cant say that it's popular because of the 'Sex Sells' train of thought. Harry Potter sold despite all of that. A story like that should be the standard for how characters are represented. Average. With magic.

As for your last comment about YA comments, I'm uh, not talking to you about that? Nor have I brought up young adult books, until just now that is. <_<

 

[Anoxida]

People argueing that FE series success during recent years is due to QoL lol. Waifu culture has exploded in the west in recent years which is why FE is doing so well now. Of course them being good games is the foundation but remove waifus and those games dont sell nearly as much.

 

[Rickenslacker]

Wol in Mobius Final Fantasy. His outfit was (and still is) just godawful.

Mobius final fantasy.

Haha, thanks. They should've kept the side window imo.

 

[MoonFrog]

Now we just need to get the message to Reggie so they can start development on Metroid.

Tbh, I do think Metroid would sell better if it more a) a more straightforward adventure game, b) it were 3D and in third person, c) Samus' suit was sleeker and sexier, and d) it was marketed well.

I imagine a lot of GAF would like it better if it were b), c), and a heavier action game, but I think a) would be important too for a wider audience, while c) would be a deterrent.

That said, about the only one I want out of those is d). I'd be fine with b), but I don't think 2D or first person need to be done away with and I like them.

...

IDK. They did do c) in Other M and d) too, I think (?!). But the game came across as a) bad anime, b) a linear action game, which isn't the most popular genre, and c) it had bad word of mouth. Clearly made for Japanese audiences using an unpopular IP and then being a messy product too.

 

[Death Penalty]

Haha, thanks. They should've kept the side window imo.

Honestly I'm against characters looking like strippers just in general regardless of their gender, but Wol's outfit is especially bad for me, along with the likes of Cindy and that mage chick from the newest Star Ocean. But hey, if the design is something you like, I guess it's something you like.

 

[Mega]

I was obviously jokiny but I think one of the biggest issues of Metroid today is that kids don't particularly give a shit about it while being on platforms with very large young audience.

I doubt a big slice of FE sales is kids either.

I think Federation Force was an attempt to tap into the same kid segments that play Minecraft and even Triforce Heroes and revitalize the series for a new generation, except no one paid attention and it flopped!

 

[katkombat]

Sexy shit doesn't sell in a vacuum, but aesthetics that result in sexy shit does have an impact on perception and appeal. Take Metal Gear for example. It's very much macho military scifi design. The artists who design stuff like that well are more likely to be inclined to design female characters with a more exaggerated male gaze. Does the sexy chick add more sales on her own? Hard to tell, probably not significantly. Does the overall tone of the game communicate a strong style which audiences have been programmed to think is badass and cool? Absolutely. I don't think sitting on a philosophical tower debating things like this in isolation has any real value.

seen a shitstorm of posts on this site for a while but it's ones like these that keep me around

 

[redcrayon]

I totally agree that accessibility had a hand in it as well but to ignore being able to establish relationships between characters is also ignoring a massive part of it's success.

Establishing relationships between characters is not a new thing for Fire Emblem, it's had that for decades.

The huge increase in production values, promotion and accessibility are far, far more likely to have had the effect on sales that Awakening benefitted from than having characters linked by relationships consisting of half a dozen simplistic conversations (this wasn't new) before being auto-married and a child unit from dimension X appears (this was). It really isn't the grand romance that other RPGs try (and often fail) at portraying.

Was it a small part of it, considering that relationships have always been part of FE? OK, maybe. But 'massive?' Absolutely not. To give it most of the credit disregards the work that was done throughout the game to give it the best possible chance of success, they were up against the wall and didn't pin their hopes on waifus, they pinned it on addressing what exactly about the game was stopping new players even trying a first-party Nintendo IP. Most of the chat in the run-up to Awakening really wasn't about Waifus, it was about the accessibility mechanics.