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[Nethaniah]

You kind of just proved his point rather than negating it. Even if it were true that 30fps means the game is more "sluggish" what if the designers want the gam to feel "more sluggish" or at least have designed the game to feel slower in reaction in that manner for tension.

You can make the game / controls feel sluggish without bringing down the framerate.

Edit: And as SeanSpeed said 30fps with for example mouse controls makes you feel totally disconnected to the game because it's unresponsive, like i'm playing a game with with 500ms or something.

 

[Fractal]

I agree? lol. I think you're responding to the wrong person.

Ah, crap. Guess it's getting a bit too late to be posting. My apologies!

 

[Skyzard]

I don't know what you are experiencing, but just don't call it cinematic. It is in no way connected to the way cinema framerate works.

It's exactly how I'd describe it though.

It helps that the graphics were amazing (especially modded and with TXAA - antialiasing) as well I think but also the gameplay, it just about worked out at that framerate well enough for it too all come together.

http://a.pomf.se/chsgpk.webm

http://a.pomf.se/mvzmjp.webm

http://a.pomf.se/whqsza.webm

With Star Citizen, which also has fantastic visuals, 30fps does not work well enough. You need to move and look around way too much - very fast movement changes and covering wide angles.

Not so much with watch dogs. I think, it might be okay with TEW's style of gameplay, after a little adjustment, and if you use a controller.

And if we can get 1080p working without stutters on less than fucking 4GB of VRAM BS.

Of course 60 would be better to play, without a doubt, if there's any confusion.

Yeah, but in Wolfenstein 60 fps is normal, 30 fps is half the speed. Above 60 it get's faster

Here's a gif I found on Guru3D:

I just did, it doesn't work.

The console spews this out: Warning: r_syncAtEndFrame cannot be set in Retail! - so it's a developer-feature which got disabled.

Hopefully, it will work in The Evil Within. Although I'm going to play the game anyway if I have to, it made a good impression when I was playing it - there's not many classical survival-horror-games anymore.

Hmm...but normal speed for this game will be 30fps :/

 

[RK9039]

Turn based strategy games benefit from higher frame rates? Point and click adventure games?

Yes, those games have animations and controls as well.

 

[Seanspeed]

You kind of just proved his point rather than negating it. Even if it were true that 30fps means the game is more "sluggish" what if the designers want the gam to feel "more sluggish."

That would basically be the equivalent of a developer purposefully rendering their game at 480p on the PS4 because they wanted the game to look blurry. Its theoretically possible, but a fairly ridiculous notion.

And do realize when people say 'sluggish', they don't mean movement speed or weighty controls or anything. They mean the game does not feel responsive, which is never a good thing.

 

[nbthedude]

You can make the game / controls feel sluggish without bringing down the framerate.

Sure but the point was it does accomplish a certain look or feel.

While I myself would prefer 60fps options in all PC games, I do sometimes feel like the aesthetics of PC game video options are a bit weird. It's like if a great director went to a lot of trouble framing shots, lightening them in a certain way, carefully picking the type of film and cameras to use, and then viewers all complain that they should be able to adjust all these features. There is something to be said for an auteur's vision. And stuff like higher anti-aliasing, fps, antiscopic filtering, etc does objectively change the look and feel of games. I'm not sure I agree that how a game looks and feels should always be up to the end user to adjust Or at least I'm not willing to carte blanche adopt the argument that these elements that change the look and feel should always be demanded to be left up to the end user.

 

[RavenValor95]

Turn based strategy games benefit from higher frame rates? Point and click adventure games?

Point and click adventure games are actually really annoying to play at low FPS since moving the mouse around the screen is so much different from what it is normally on windows, there are a few P&C games that always mess me up when i start playing them because the mouse feels so sluggish in comparison to regular use, and considering how pixel perfect some of your clicks have to be in P&C games it can lead to a lot of sighs of frustration.

 

[nbthedude]

That would basically be the equivalent of a developer purposefully rendering their game at 480p on the PS4 because they wanted the game to look blurry. Its theoretically possible, but a fairly ridiculous notion.

And do realize when people say 'sluggish', they don't mean movement speed or weighty controls or anything. They mean the game does not feel responsive, which is never a good thing.

Tarentino intentionally uses low fi audio in some of his movies for classic kung fu cinema effect. If he were a PC developer, PC gamers would be outraged by this sort of thing.

In this case, as I said, I don't think it's the case that they were trying to adopt a particular aesthetic. I think it far more likely that they simply designed the game around 30fps animation cycles and didn't have the foresight to avoid this problem and now it may be far more unreasonable amount of work than most people realize to fix this sort of issue. But I'm bringing up the point simply to say that I think we should really be careful of carte blanche dismissing the idea that there could never be an aesthetic argument for these kinds of decisions.

 

[ClaptoVaughn]

Turn based strategy games benefit from higher frame rates? Point and click adventure games?

Yes. I notice reduced framerates when I'm just moving my mouse cursor around a game's menu.

Everything feels smoother, more precise, and more responsive when comparing 60 fps to 30 fps.

Does this mean 30 fps is unplayable? No. If I could make it through the PC port of Saints Row 2, I could make it through anything. However, it's damn noticeable and an unfortunate mark on what would have been a much better experience.

 

[Easy_D]

I don't see the big issue with a cap by default if you can still make it run at an uncapped framerate and also adjust the aspect ratio.

Well, you see. Sometimes shit starts to break when you uncap the framerate.

 

[nbthedude]

Point and click adventure games are actually really annoying to play at low FPS since moving the mouse around the screen is so much different from what it is normally on windows, there are a few P&C games that always mess me up when i start playing them because the mouse feels so sluggish in comparison to regular use, and considering how pixel perfect some of your clicks have to be in P&C games it can lead to a lot of sighs of frustration.

When people say this sort of thing I often wonder how old they are. Sometimes these statements read akin to people talking about how horrible the world must have been before Iphones. Are people being melodramatic or can they really genuinely not tolerate games running at 30FPS? Because I guess they would have had to avoid playing videogames at all before like 2002 if that was the case.

 

[wildfire]

yes and yes? Aren't point and click games controlled with a mouse? Aren't mouse controls aided by higher framerates?

Now you are just exaggerating. Your mouse pointer moving more smoothly doesn't make the game better.

How is it not? Bioshock did this and it made for some screwy physics, so did L.A. Noire, etc. They had their physics(logic) tied to framerate and it caused issues. Tell me how it's better to tie logic to framerate? I legitimately don't know and would love to.

Because the machine (and thus you) can miss frames when you exceed them. This is a problem fighting games need to avoid. If you go out of bounds beyond the target frame rendering speed then animation frames can get dropped which prevents players from seeing the visual cues they need to see to play the game with the finesse they could with fixed frame rates.

Fixed frame rates isn't the same as capped framerates but for the purposes of this specific topic it's a valid example since sometimes one of the reasons you want to cap frames is to avoid stutters that can throw you off.

 

[ShinobiFist]

People will get 1080p res with less than 4gbs vram. Modor proved that already. We'll be fine.

Yup. I'm not playing the game in 1080p, but at 976(looks great on my 46 inch TV)With everything on High except shadows(Medium)And I get 55-60fps on my GTX660 OEM that has 1.6 VRAM.

 

[Lulubop]

I'll wait and see what the unlocking does to the game.

 

[RavenValor95]

When people say this sort of thing I often wonder how old they are. Sometimes these statements read akin to people talking about how horrible the world must have been before Iphones. Are people being melodramatic or can they really genuinely not tolerate games running at 30FPS? Because I guess they would have had to avoid playing videogames at all before like 2002 if that was the case.

I can tolerate it, I was just saying that a higher framerate does help even in a point and click adventure game.

 

[Krusenstern]

Now you are just exaggerating.

He is not. Higher framerates allow for more responsive controlls. More frames to register inputs. This is well known. It does feel better.

 

[Nethaniah]

Now you are just exaggerating. You mouse pointer moving more smoothly doesn't make the game better.

I disagree, for example the 3D CnC games would actually be playable if they weren't locked to 30fps, doing anything in those games feels terrible directly because of the framerate, including moving the cursor.

Totally unrelated but 30fps is also way easier to go back to, go play older console games that are 30fps (or lower), so difficult to enjoy because it not only looks bad but also plays bad, if you want your games to hold up you'd better make them 60fps or atleast try to achieve that.

 

[inky]

I disagree, for example the 3D CnC games would actually be playable if they weren't locked to 30fps, doing anything in those games feels terrible directly because of the framerate, including moving the cursor.

Red Alert 3 sucked ass being locked to 30 =/

 

[King_Moc]

Tarentino intentionally uses low fi audio in some of his movies for classic kung fu cinema effect. If he were a PC developer, PC gamers would be outraged by this sort of thing.

In this case, as I said, I don't think it's the case that they were trying to adopt a particular aesthetic. I think it far more likely that they simply designed the game around 30fps animation cycles and didn't have the foresight to avoid this problem and now it may be far more unreasonable amount of work than most people realize to fix this sort of issue. But I'm bringing up the point simply to say that I think we should really be careful of carte blanche dismissing the idea that there could never be an aesthetic argument for these kinds of decisions.

No, that's like the equivalent of using pixel art.

 

[wildfire]

He is not. Higher framerates allow for more responsive controlls. More frames to register inputs. This is well known. It does feel better.

Gee I wonder where I heard that before?

The only difference is that I don't see it as always mandatory.

 

[Gbraga]

Yeah, I'm just playing this on PS4 because I can't wait, need it day one.

If 2GB cards are fine at 1080p, I'll double dip sooner, if not, only when I upgrade.

When people say this sort of thing I often wonder how old they are. Sometimes these statements read akin to people talking about how horrible the world must have been before Iphones. Are people being melodramatic or can they really genuinely not tolerate games running at 30FPS? Because I guess they would have had to avoid playing videogames at all before like 2002 if that was the case.

Uhmm, what? I think this "30fps is a slideshow" mentality is way over the top too, but if anything, old school games were mostly 60 on consoles, 30fps (and less) became the norm with 3D games.

The "I can't see the difference between 30 and 60" crowd is the one that's more likely to be younger.

 

[ShinobiFist]

No, that's like the equivalent of using pixel art.

Actually, chiptune

 

[Thrakier]

I bet he designed resi4 for 30fps as well. We just had to wait years for the redesign at 60 FPS.

It's a joke to offer 30fps games for PC at full price. And it's not one of the good jokes.

 

[nbthedude]

No, that's like the equivalent of using pixel art.

Actually, chiptune

I was using the literal example. Of course the more direct comparison would be someone who wanted to make a game that replicated the display resolution and colors of an old PC game; like if they wanted to create an SD, or VHS effect and the audience demanded that there be higher resolution options.

 

[Nethaniah]

I was using the literal example. Of course the comparison the more direct comparison would be someone who wanted to make a game that replicated the display resolution and colors of an old PC game; like if they wanted to create an SD, or VHS effect and the audience demanded that there be higher resolution options.

Again, could be achieved without compromising basic functionality, regardless of what effects a game uses it should always be running at my monitors / tv's native resolution, some weird intended VHS effect should have nothing to do with that, not like any developer is crazy enough to for example make a game of this caliber run @ 480p on the ps4 because of some dumbass artistic vision.

 

[dmr87]

So they are telling me that my 780ti can't max this at 1080p? We'll see, somehow I don't believe them. Then again, system requirements are terrible most of the time.

 

[akira28]

Expect 4 GB VRAM to become a mandatory requirement soon. Time to upgrade them video cards brahs.

nah breh. Only idiot console devs would try that mess.

 

[kamspy]

If we're giving dude the creative license for the cinemascope AR, I don't see why the 30 fps lock is a big deal. I game exclusively on PC, but I still evaluate what visuals settings I think a game "should have" (dat entitlement) on a case by case basis.

Halo CE is animated (?) at 30, and you can still run it higher. It looks weird as shit too.

I can't think of any game that would have benefited from a 30fps lock (or, would have not benefited visually from a 60fps boost), but I'm open to someone taking an honest swing if that's what this really is.


The REAL question we should be asking Bethesda on this is what they're doing for people with CIH projectors. Because I'm breaking out the old beast for this game if possible.

 

[ClaptoVaughn]

I was using the literal example. Of course the comparison the more direct comparison would be someone who wanted to make a game that replicated the display resolution and colors of an old PC game; like if they wanted to create an SD, or VHS effect and the audience demanded that there be higher resolution options.

Either way it's a bad example because movies are not interactive, and the root of the framerate issue is how it affects the interactivity of a game.

There is nothing about a movie that can compare to a framerate's effect on responsiveness and precision of the controls of a game.

The closest thing would be if you wanted to pause a movie at an exact frame but your dvd player has a delay on when it reacts to presses on the remote controller. Imagine trying to get it to pause RIGHT at a particular moment but the damn machine keeps going past it, then you have to search backwards and try again and again, compensating for the delay by pressing earlier only to end up pressing it too early, and so on and so forth.

It's a machine that doesn't execute commands exactly how and when you apply your input. Obviously with a video game the deviation is the fractions of a second but it's noticeable to anyone that is used to playing at 60 fps.

 

[nbthedude]

If we're giving dude the creative license for the cinemascope AR, I don't see why the 30 fps lock is a big deal. I game exclusively on PC, but I still evaluate what visuals settings I think a game "should have" (dat entitlement) on a case by case basis.

Halo CE is animated (?) at 30, and you can still run it higher. It looks weird as shit too.

I can't think of any game that would have benefited from a 30fps lock (or, would have not benefited visually from a 60fps boost), but I'm open to someone taking an honest swing if that's what this really is.


The REAL question we should be asking Bethesda on this is what they're doing for people with CIH projectors. Because I'm breaking out the old beast for this game if possible.

A much more reasonable perspective than most in this thread.

The issue seems far more complicated to me than people want to make it as there can be issues related to either aesthetic choice or programming method.

I like shiny baubles as much as the next guy but the general emphasis people put on this stuff is rather extreme and shallow in my opinion. I'm not avoiding reading a book by my favorite author because I don't like the font or paper quality or skipping a film by a director I love because it isn't offered in imax 3D or true Doby digital or something. Why should games be different?

 

[Nethaniah]

A much more reasonable perspective than most in this thread.

Because he somewhat agrees with you?

 

[nbthedude]

Either way it's a bad example because movies are not interactive, and the root of the framerate issue is how it affects the interactivity of a game.

There is nothing about a movie that can compare to a framerate's effect on responsiveness and precision of the controls of a game.

The closest thing would be if you wanted to pause a movie at an exact frame but your dvd player has a delay on when it reacts to presses on the remote controller. Imagine trying to get it to pause RIGHT at a particular moment but the damn machine keeps going past it, then you have to search backwards and try again and again, compensating for the delay by pressing earlier only to end up pressing it too early, and so on and so forth.

It's a machine that doesn't execute commands exactly how and when you apply your input. Obviously with a video game the deviation is the fractions of a second but it's noticeable to anyone that is used to playing at 60 fps.

I why would not the facts that games are about interactivity and frame rate is associated with interactivity do anything to change the idea that FPS choices could be heavily associated with artistic vision? In fact, that once more seems like it would only prove the point.

 

[wildfire]

There is nothing about a movie that can compare to a framerate's effect on responsiveness and precision of the controls of a game.

True but we are talking about a game designer who it notorious for making games that feel right because of the unresponsive controls. We could argue about how the game could be made to feel unresponsive to simulate that feel while still being uncapped but I haven't seen any speculations or suggestion or citations of other games that go for this effect while playing at very fast frame rates.

[edit] Actually I think Shovel Knight could be an example but I would have to reread some interviews on the techniques they used and why there doing it again.

 

[nbthedude]

Because he somewhat agrees with you?

No because his position is not an extreme all or nothing, this is awesome, this sucks, everything should be this way and no other way perspective. It has nuance and qualification. Something internet opinion typically lacks; internet commentary is generally a fire hydrant gushing odium amounting to little more than cathartic release (if that).

 

[Kintaro]

Hmmm, I'll wait for impressions before considering the buy. When you have to explain so much stuff over a version of the game, something doesn't quite jive.

 

[Skyzard]

What about resolution though.

This will be like the first game that most PC users have to run on a lower resolution?

4GB at 1080p.

I'd assume if compression looked good enough and was a viable solution, they'd make that clear so not to cause such a shit stir. You'd think.

 

[Nethaniah]

True but we are talking about a game designer who it notorious for making games that feel right because of the unresponsive controls. We could argue about how the game could be made to feel unresponsive to simulate that feel while still being uncapped but I haven't seen any speculations or suggestion or citations of other games that go for this effect while playing at very fast frame rates.

Isn't the main guy behind this game the same as the one behind RE4? If so, the last PC port that upped the game to 60fps plays much better than any other version.

 

[nbthedude]

What about resolution though.

This will be like the first game that most PC users have to run on a lower resolution?

I'm not at all convinced that the quote in the OP isn't referring to texture quality resolutiona and not display resolution. Also the way it talks about RAM usage is really weird and makes little sense.

 

[ClaptoVaughn]

If we're giving dude the creative license for the cinemascope AR, I don't see why the 30 fps lock is a big deal. I game exclusively on PC, but I still evaluate what visuals settings I think a game "should have" (dat entitlement) on a case by case basis.

I'm not.

If I get this game (after confirming it doesn't break when framerate is uncapped), I'm turning those black bars off.

The aspect ratio as an artistic vision in a video game is bullshit. Maybe for cutscenes, but once that camera is in our hands (figuratively speaking), cutting off portions of otherwise usable space is completely pointless. Don't want me to see too much of the ceiling? Too bad, because I can just move my camera up. Want me to look out that window, to see the sunrays coming through the sides of the window frame? Sorry brah, I panned to the right slightly, so half my screen is wallpaper. There is no possible way for a developer to predict exactly what angle and distance I am looking at anything in the game at any given time to be able to say "yeah, this aspect ratio will frame that just right."

 

[Krappadizzle]

I why would not the facts that games are about interactivity and frame rate is associated with interactivity do anything to change the idea that FPS choices could be heavily associated with artistic vision? In fact, that once more seems like it would only prove the point.

Because it's not a reason, it's an excuse. There is a difference.

 

[inky]

internet commentary is generally a fire hydrant gushing odium amounting to little more than cathartic release (if that).

It's also inane comparisons for the sake of winning an argument, like this one:

I'm not avoiding reading a book by my favorite author because I don't like the font or paper quality

Someone as "reasonable" as you should be able to realize how flawed, let alone foolish a comparison between computer games performance and the font and paper in a book is. But I guess not.

 

[The Hermit]

Dark Souls was made for 30fps and when unlocked to 60 made it even more perfect than it was.

I think we will be fine

 

[kamspy]

I'm not.

If I get this game (after confirming it doesn't break when framerate is uncapped), I'm turning those black bars off.

The aspect ratio as an artistic vision in a video game is bullshit. Maybe for cutscenes, but once that camera is in our hands (figuratively speaking), cutting off portions of otherwise usable space is completely pointless. Don't want me to see too much of the ceiling? Too bad, because I can just move my camera up. Want me to look out that window, to see the sunrays coming through the sides of the window frame? Sorry brah, I panned to the right slightly, so half my screen is wallpaper. There is no possible way for a developer to predict exactly what angle and distance I am looking at anything in the game at any given time to be able to say "yeah, this aspect ratio will frame that just right."

So if you're playing a side scrolling game and they black out the majority of the picture for artistic intent (dark room, dream, I dunno) you would rather disable that?

 

[Skilletor]

Now you are just exaggerating. Your mouse pointer moving more smoothly doesn't make the game better.

No, I'm not. Yes, it does.

 

[nbthedude]

It's also inane comparisons for the sake of winning an argument, like this one:



Someone as "reasonable" as you should be able to realize that how flawed, let alone foolish a comparison between computer games performance and the font and paper in a book is. But I guess not.

I really don't. Please explain to me why aesethetics matter so much more in videogames than other mediums to the point where it is worth dismissing the value of the actual content and it's merits because video option settings. Indeed that seems pretty close to as persnickety to me as objecting to the paratextual framing of books.

At the very least it seems to me that an outsider, someone who wasn't a game enthusiast, would hear someone's argument that they dismissed a videogame as not worth their time because of the video options menu didn't offer things they wanted to be a pretty weird reason to dismiss the content and worthiness of the game itself. I'm not sure why you are convinced this would seem less weird to them than someone who wouldn't read a book because of the paper quality or font.

 

[Squishy3]

Dark Souls was made for 30fps and when unlocked to 60 made it even more perfect than it was.

I think we will be fine

Except for that part where it breaks important stuff about the game, like when sliding down ladders you can fall through the ground or the game will glitch out when you try to restore your humanity before the bonfire animation finishes playing, and it makes your jump and roll shorter, among other things.

 

[Krappadizzle]

So if you're playing a side scrolling game and they black out the majority of the picture for artistic intent (dark room, dream, I dunno) you would rather disable that?

Bad comparison.

 

[Felix Lighter]

Except for that part where it breaks important stuff about the game, like when sliding down ladders you can fall through the ground or the game will glitch out when you try to restore your humanity before the bonfire animation finishes playing, and it makes your jump and roll shorter, among other things.

That's a result of having to "hack" 60 fps. IF the game was natively 60 fps or higher it would have played better and we wouldn't have had those bugs.

 

[nbthedude]

That's a result of having to "hack" 60 fps. IF the game was natively 60 fps or higher it would have played better and we wouldn't have had those bugs.

I don't think that's how it works. It was due to animations being tied to frames.

 

[jacksepticeye]

Some of this stuff doesn't sound all that great. I'm hoping it can be unlocked without issue but when a game is designed one way, unlocking can lead to inconsistencies