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[Refreshment.01]

To me the "Nunchuk+" would be a Nunchuk with all the functions of a Wiimote+. It would also be wireless and still retain an analog stick.

Don't know why Nintendo didn't redesigned the Nunchuk. No need top get too reedy asking for a camera. Basically same set up as now with one analog trigger (clickable like GC pad would be a dream), a clickable thumbstick/ circle pad and a gyro complementing the accelerometers so it can send relative positioning data (great for camera control for example).

Make it a slave device like now but wireless. So we get compatibility for all released titles while greatly enhancing its functionality.

 

[jump_button]

What do you guys think of the possibility of an upgraded nunchuk, with motionplus capabilities built in?

I hope so putting in a charger would be where I start but

 

[bgassassin]

In other words, this proves that it's slightly better than PS3 at minimum.

?

That's always been the expected minimum.

Don't know why Nintendo didn't redesigned the Nunchuk. No need top get too reedy asking for a camera. Basically same set up as now with one analog trigger (clickable like GC pad would be a dream), a clickable thumbstick/ circle pad and a gyro complementing the accelerometers so it can send relative positioning data (great for camera control for example).

Make it a slave device like now but wireless. So we get compatibility for all released titles while greatly enhancing its functionality.

I'm going to be greedy.

That's the only way the dual pointer control can be pulled off.

 

[Linkhero1]

I'm the opposite of EatChildren. I dislike the Wii remote, so the prospect of having a regular controller in addition to a screen (where I also don't care for gimmicks like streaming and all that and whatever other random stuff they whip out) kind of excites me, but only if they use the screen in ways that simply improve my experience. For instance removing HUD stuff I don't need and putting it on there for a cleaner visual on my TV, or putting stuff there that would save me time rather than sifting through menus on the tv, and so on.

I'm just glad they're going back to regular controller, I view the fact that it has a screen as bonus that I can see helping or see being gimmicky, either way.

But I see why it can hurt some remote fans.

I'm with you. Not a big fan of the Wiimote. It was alright for Metroid Prime, but I didn't find myself enjoying a lot of other games that supported it as the main way to play a game.

And you implied that it's unlikely, but not impossible.

In other words, this proves that it's slightly better than PS3 at minimum.

If there's anyone who can pull a good looking game for the Wii U at launch, it's Nintendo. I don't third party games are going to look any better than they do on current platforms.

 

[MisterHero]

What scares me about Pikmin 3 is EAD has had a track record of not giving a fuck about graphics except for the Mario Galaxy games. And Miyamoto doesn't seem to give a fuck about graphics like Retro Studios or Monolithsoft would.

You're right, but even if they had the choice of 'premium' graphics, they would always choose performance over the former.

Super Mario 64, Waverace 64, and Pilotwings 64 were all great uses of their hardpower for their time. What was more important though is that the games run smoothly, and Nintendo opted for that when Gamecube could offer it to them (when N64 always seemed to struggle with framerate)

 

[jacksrb]

Man, awesome pic!

It took me a minute to see that Gabe Newell dropped his crowbar at the door in a hurry to get a good seat.

 

[IdeaMan]

About the CPU, do we know approximatively how much cores will it have ?

New tidbit about the CPU

It seems it's still 3 cores in the latest dev kits. No surprising fourth core added in the mass production kits.

 

[TheGreatMightyPoo]

Wave Race was a technical marvel for Nintendo, I couldn't ever get tired of the wave physics.

 

[tkscz]

I love leaving this thread in a separate tab for like 5 to 10 minutes, then pressing refresh to see all the post just pop up out of nowhere.

 

[Sadist]

I love leaving this thread in a separate tab for like 5 to 10 minutes, then pressing refresh to see all the post just pop up out of nowhere.

Hey, same here.

 

[tkscz]

New tidbit about the CPU

It seems it's still 3 cores in the latest dev kits. No surprising fourth core added in the mass production kits.

If they have the system made in the way that the patents shown it, it could have two cores and still be a beast sense it's GPU centered.

 

[-Pyromaniac-]

I'm with you. Not a big fan of the Wiimote. It was alright for Metroid Prime, but I didn't find myself enjoying a lot of other games that supported it as the main way to play a game.

high five

 

[LiquidMamba]

Uncharted 3 is a good looking game, but the IQ leaves a lot to be desired. If the Wii U can't reproduce those visuals at launch, by the time it can it will be to late to make much of a difference, the core consumer will be moving on to superior hardware. Nintendo seems to be in the exact same situation as before, having a console you pull out just to play first party games. With the IPad on their heels, the Wii U is in a precarious situation.

 

[Refreshment.01]

I still don't understand people's obsession with multitouch. The only implication I can think of where it would make sense is on-screen buttons (yeah we don't have enough of those!) or pinch-to-zoom.

Im willing to get into the discussion again so pay attention Stevie. First, Get the pinch to zoom out of your head since it's a crass simplification of what multitouch can do.

It's all about the gestures, you have more natural ones and the user has a most substantial variety of inputs. It even facilitates operation without the need to even look at the screen. Regarding the accuracy draw back, remember that the screen is quite big, even more so than the typical phone your fingers would be accurate enough to handle more of the input scenarios. Drawing it's the only questionable one the rest would work great.

 

[AceBandage]

Uncharted 3 is a good looking game, but the IQ leaves a lot to be desired. If the Wii U can't reproduce those visuals at launch, by the time it can it will be to late to make much of a difference, the core consumer will be moving on to superior hardware. Nintendo seems to be in the exact same situation as before, having a console you pull out just to play first party games. With the IPad on their heels, the Wii U is in a precarious situation.

Ummm...
What?
Also it's not a matter of can. It's a matter of will.
Uncharted 3 had lots of people and many years building on an established engine that was custom made for the PS3. No Wii U game will have that at launch.

 

[sfried]

So we're talking about this "Oban" again. Any new news on feature set?

Not only the schedule and timing, but IGN's rumor that tied in with it as well. Once I learned of Nintendo's GPU additions I began to change my view on the amount of possible shaders it would have. I realized after-the-fact that the 6670 pretty much matches with that.

In fact here is an interesting coincidence. The dev kit GPU was supposedly underclocked to 450Mhz. And my take was Wii U's modified GPU would be clocked at 600Mhz.

DK GPU - 640 (ALUs) x .45 x 2 = 576 GFLOPs

Final GPU - 480 (ALUs) x .6 x 2 = 576 GFLOPs

Are you saying the slight downgrade in ALUs is to balance out the hardware? I remember hearing something like this as they made last minute changes to the GameCube before launch.

New tidbit about the CPU

It seems it's still 3 cores in the latest dev kits. No surprising fourth core added in the mass production kits.

So third core for OS/Security measures? If so, that's following in the steps of the 3DS (a CPU dedicated to OS and stuff), and if like the 3DS, we could potentially see it freed later on as they optimize).

 

[TheGreatMightyPoo]

Ummm...
What?

Just say "Mario buttons" and move on, not worth it...

 

[bgassassin]

If they have the system made in the way that the patents shown it, it could have two cores and still be a beast sense it's GPU centered.

Not if the CPU has trouble feeding the GPU.

 

[tkscz]

Not if the CPU has trouble feeding the GPU.

Well true, but Nintendo is none for making sure nothing bottle necks. Think that's why it's Tri-core and not quad.

 

[WiiRevolution1]

I've been thinking, and I think anyone expecting Nintendo to allow games to not be tied to a console is gonna be dissapointed. (Including me.)

Nintendo only said that with NiN that they will have multiple accounts on Wii U. They never said that these accounts would be able to login on different Wii Us. (Except I think in the 3DS way, with both Wii Us present.)

I hate to say it, but this is Nintendo. What they meant is like the PS3 (and maybe 360, not sure) is that you can have multiple NiN accounts on the same Wii U, but they all will be tied to the Wii U. (Unless you do a transfer like I said, with the old Wii U and the new Wii U present.)

I hope its not true but after thinking on it, it probably will be the case. Hope I'm wrong though.

Anywayz: I'm 10 pages behind! Thanks GAF for giving mii something to read!

 

[sfried]

I've been thinking, and I think anyone expecting Nintendo to allow games to not be tied to a console is gonna be dissapointed. (Including me.)

Nintendo only said that with NiN that they will have multiple accounts on Wii U. They never said that these accounts would be able to login on different Wii Us. (Except I think in the 3DS way, with both Wii Us present.)

I hate to say it, but this is Nintendo. What they meant is like the PS3 (and maybe 360, not sure) is that you can have multiple NiN accounts on the same Wii U, but they all will be tied to the Wii U. (Unless you do a transfer like I said, with the old Wii U and the new Wii U present.)

I hope its not true but after thinking on it, it probably will be the case. Hope I'm wrong though.

Anywayz: I'm 10 pages behind! Thanks GAF for giving mii something to read!

They were also able to make a transfer system that allowed you to move DSiWare games from your DSi to your 3DS. It's not unlikely they will figure out a way to make a feasable (yet clunky) transfer system to move games from one console to the other.

 

[Turrican3]

While I do believe the Upad has some potential for certain things, I also preferred refining the Wiimote over that decision. IMO the Upad is another one of Nintendo's overreactions that I mentioned not too long ago.

As much as I *love* the wiimote, I can perfectly understand Nintendo trying to offer a more traditional control scheme.

I mean, I can't think of any single controller (not even Kinect) being actively rejected by gamers as they did with the wiimote. :-\

And that's saddening to say the least... but... I believe there's a small chance (given the already confirmed compatibility) the wiimote can still get some kind of serious support on WiiU, too, especially if Nintendo is going to bundle it (+nunchuck) with the console, something that could also help them with the asymmetric stuff.

 

[BurntPork]

?

That's always been the expected minimum.

Yeah, but some believe otherwise.

 

[bachikarn]

high five

I'm with you guys.

My ideal controller would essentially be an x360 controller split in half with the right half having pointer functionality. No idea if that is feasible, but it has the best of both worlds.

I like the screen idea, but I fear it will cause more harm than good. Either by driving up the price, or requiring more processing power. I love the idea of being able to playy the Wii U anywhere in my apartment though.

 

[BY2K]

Okay, Nintendo-GAF:

BY2K was banned on 00/00/0000 for Forever due to the following official reason:

“For existing.”

BY2K's comments about this ban:

“Poor thing...”

BY2K was banned on Date? for EVER due to the following official reason:

“Being sexy and naughty”

BY2K's comments about this ban:

“”

Which one of you did this?

 

[bgassassin]

So we're talking about this "Oban" again. Any new news on feature set?

Are you saying the slight downgrade in ALUs is to balance out the hardware? I remember hearing something like this as they made last minute changes to the GameCube before launch.

My bad. I left out a key point that I meant to say. When I began hypothesizing about a non-traditional GPU and how the baseline might look I went back to the dev kit GPU as a part of the speculation. My thought was that maybe the reason it was underclocked was to simulate the raw power of the final GPU without the extra features. This would be the smart thing to do since the extra features essentially make it more powerful, but there's nothing on the market to simulate that. So taking the underclocked route gave devs the minimum raw capability of what it can do at that time.

 

[UncleSporky]

Im willing to get into the discussion again so pay attention Stevie. First, Get the pinch to zoom out of your head since it's a crass simplification of what multitouch can do.

Yeah, pinch zoom is boring. I'd be fine with holding a shoulder button and dragging to do the same thing.

 

[z0m3le]

Not only the schedule and timing, but IGN's rumor that tied in with it as well. Once I learned of Nintendo's GPU additions I began to change my view on the amount of possible shaders it would have. I realized after-the-fact that the 6670 pretty much matches with that.

In fact here is an interesting coincidence. The dev kit GPU was supposedly underclocked to 450Mhz. And my take was Wii U's modified GPU would be clocked at 600Mhz.

DK GPU - 640 (ALUs) x .45 x 2 = 576 GFLOPs

Final GPU - 480 (ALUs) x .6 x 2 = 576 GFLOPs

This is too low, if it were releasing last year it would be easier to swallow, but in 2012, with PS4/XB3 coming in 18-30months, I think there just isn't enough of a lead to give it a real chance...

Wasn't there some sort of surprising bump in performance between these two kits? chopping up a 640sp chip would be something they would plan from the get go, so I am not sure why they wouldn't go with a 480sp chip, as AMD has plenty to choose from... luckily it's speculation, but now your 640sp @ 600mhz (768GFLOPs) sounds like heaven... Damn you BG.

Also if Oban rumor is the Wii U CPU, that means it has dropped from 45nm to 32nm... being a SoC btw isn't surprising at all, seeing how well it worked for 360s.

 

[bgassassin]

Well true, but Nintendo is none for making sure nothing bottle necks. Think that's why it's Tri-core and not quad.

I agree. Just speaking in general. That's where the I/O controller and audio DSP come in. And it sounds like some haven't (bothered) using them as they were meant to be.

As much as I *love* the wiimote, I can perfectly understand Nintendo trying to offer a more traditional control scheme.

I mean, I can't think of any single controller (not even Kinect) being actively rejected by gamers as they did with the wiimote. :-\

And that's saddening to say the least... but... I believe there's a small chance (given the already confirmed compatibility) the wiimote can still get some kind of serious support on WiiU, too, especially if Nintendo is going to bundle it (+nunchuck) with the console, something that could also help them with the asymmetric stuff.

I'm playing the "what if" game, but I still believe if Wii had been an "Xbox 360-lite" in power the controller would have been better accepted. Once the Wiimote became associated with the non-gamer, it was doomed to the type of acceptance it received.

Yeah, but some believe otherwise.

Haha. I was ignoring that.

 

[JoshuaJSlone]

Regarding early X360 games looking like Xbox games, while the higher resolution alone improved things a lot, ports were still clearly ports. Just Cause Xbox and Just Cause Xbox 360 are a lot closer than Just Cause Xbox 360 and Just Cause 2 Xbox 360.

What do you guys think of the possibility of an upgraded nunchuk, with motionplus capabilities built in?

I think one device that could be used alone as a remote or in pairs as remote+nunchuk is the most flexible option. The PS3 Navigation Controller is a step in the right direction, except for the pesky matter of lacking any pointer or motion functions. Analog stick (with click), d-pad, two shoulders, two action buttons, and a "Home" button.

 

[AzaK]

I'm playing the "what if" game, but I still believe if Wii had been an "Xbox 360-lite" in power the controller would have been better accepted. Once the Wiimote became associated with the non-gamer, it was doomed to the type of acceptance it received.

I agree. All it would have taken is for the Wii to have had modern enough GPU tech and we would likely have got all the 3rd party titles and the Wii would have been in a better position. In hindsight Nintendo should have done a "360 lite", made a little less initially but had a much longer tail on the Wii.

Either way, I still think 2 things.

1) The tablet controller is going to add much more to gaming than the pointer controls (As nice as they are)
2) Decent devs will still offer that as a solution.

I realise publishers generally don't want to throw money at exclusive features without any real gain, however, if Nintendo can convince publishers to exploit both dual screen play AND away-from-tv play for their games then it's a pretty easy step to add Wii pointer controls.

What I mean by this is that if the developer goes to the effort of having the subscreen hold secondary information such that during away-from-tv play that secondary information is in the form of a HUD then they have already built in "single screen" graphics output. From there they just need to add Wii controls. Those who want to play Wiiremote only can play single screen with a HUD, and those who don't get dual screen play.

I believe it can be done without a HUGE investment if a developer wants to take the simplest approach.

 

[wsippel]

Hmm, really? I'd argue DKCR and Xenoblade are technically uglier than I think Pikmin was by the standards of the system by that point.

And I'd argue that Xenoblade is actually one of the most technically impressive Nintendo games on the Wii.

 

[BD1]

Regarding early X360 games looking like Xbox games, while the higher resolution alone improved things a lot, ports were still clearly ports. Just Cause Xbox and Just Cause Xbox 360 are a lot closer than Just Cause Xbox 360 and Just Cause 2 Xbox 360.

I think one device that could be used alone as a remote or in pairs as remote+nunchuk is the most flexible option. The PS3 Navigation Controller is a step in the right direction, except for the pesky matter of lacking any pointer or motion functions. Analog stick (with click), d-pad, two shoulders, two action buttons, and a "Home" button.

But they won't upgrade any of the Wii-legacy peripherals. They've made a big deal about backwards compatibility of the peripherals (which is admittedly a very consumer friendly proposition for millions of households), and a change to the Wii Remote or Nunchuk would ruin that.

 

[DragonKnight]

So is everybody back to realizing that the WiiU really won't be all that powerful? At this point I'm having a hard time believing that it will be viable in the market after the PS4/720 take hold. At least E3 is a few weeks away.

In other news I graduated from college with a degree in Chemistry. I did great (3.495 cumulative) and I have a job lined up already! I can finally get back into doing what I love best: gaming.

 

[tkscz]

I agree. Just speaking in general. That's where the I/O controller and audio DSP come in. And it sounds like some haven't (bothered) using them as they were meant to be.

Most won't, and will wonder how Nintendo does what they do with the hardware they have. Nintendo knew full well the issues with the 360's CPU. Wasn't Out of Order, there was no I/O controller (could be wrong about this one), no audio DSP (Didn't audio take 16% of the 360's CPU?), I'm surprised the 360 was able to handle what it did.

 

[SteeloDMZ]

This pic is so hype.

 

[Power Stranger]

Not having an outward-facing camera on the controller would be a HUGE missed opportunity with AR and what not. So many exciting possibilities and would also be a massive selling point to the casual market im sure.

I just can't figure out why Nintendo didn't include it.

 

[Shadow Hog]

But they won't upgrade any of the Wii-legacy peripherals. They've made a big deal about backwards compatibility of the peripherals (which is admittedly a very consumer friendly proposition for millions of households), and a change to the Wii Remote or Nunchuk would ruin that.

Well, they already introduced the Wii Motion Plus, and eventually the Wii Remote Plus...

I kind hope more games require that on the Wii U. If you've got better tech, it'd be a shame to not use it. Ideally a free Wii Remote Plus would be bundled with the Wii U, so you wouldn't have an excuse...

 

[z0m3le]

Not having an outward-facing camera on the controller would be a HUGE missed opportunity with AR and what not. So many exciting possibilities and would also be a massive selling point to the casual market im sure.

I just can't figure out why Nintendo didn't include it.

Well, seeing AR cards for KI, I think we could be looking at that very soon, we have heard from many, including idea man that the Upad isn't final.

 

[Celine]

I don't see Mother 4 anywhere...

It's just in front of the seat, giving all the goodness down there.

 

[Shadow Hog]

In other news I graduated from college with a degree in Chemistry. I did great (3.495 cumulative) and I have a job lined up already! I can finally get back into doing what I love best: gaming.

As somebody with a 40-hour work week job already, I can say that this isn't quite the case. Depends on how you allot your free time, I guess. I waste a shitload of it on GAF and other websites, so I haven't given myself a whole lot of time to play...

 

[Turrican3]

I'm playing the "what if" game, but I still believe if Wii had been an "Xbox 360-lite" in power the controller would have been better accepted. Once the Wiimote became associated with the non-gamer, it was doomed to the type of acceptance it received.

I guess Move somewhat proves otherwise, but I see your point regarding the wiimote = nongamer association: Move's rejection could just be due to the fact it's basically a wiimote clone, thus being given the same kind of reaction from the same users both in favour and against.

 

[bgassassin]

This is too low, if it were releasing last year it would be easier to swallow, but in 2012, with PS4/XB3 coming in 18-30months, I think there just isn't enough of a lead to give it a real chance...

Wasn't there some sort of surprising bump in performance between these two kits? chopping up a 640sp chip would be something they would plan from the get go, so I am not sure why they wouldn't go with a 480sp chip, as AMD has plenty to choose from... luckily it's speculation, but now your 640sp @ 600mhz (768GFLOPs) sounds like heaven... Damn you BG.

Also if Oban rumor is the Wii U CPU, that means it has dropped from 45nm to 32nm... being a SoC btw isn't surprising at all, seeing how well it worked for 360s.

LOL. The 640@600 was Fourth Storm I believe. Since I started talking about it I've been at 480@600. And the reason why the didn't/couldn't go with a "480 sp chip" is because none were available till the 6670 which was released at retail after the first Wii U dev kits went out. But again, that's not factoring in Nintendo's customizations as most multi-plats probably won't use them.

And yes it was said there was a bump, but we never got the full context of what that bump came from. It could have been hardware changes allowing them to go from using parts of GLSL 3.3 to using parts of GLSL 4.x.

I agree. All it would have taken is for the Wii to have had modern enough GPU tech and we would likely have got all the 3rd party titles and the Wii would have been in a better position. In hindsight Nintendo should have done a "360 lite", made a little less initially but had a much longer tail on the Wii.

Either way, I still think 2 things.

1) The tablet controller is going to add much more to gaming than the pointer controls (As nice as they are)
2) Decent devs will still offer that as a solution.

I realise publishers generally don't want to throw money at exclusive features without any real gain, however, if Nintendo can convince publishers to exploit both dual screen play AND away-from-tv play for their games then it's a pretty easy step to add Wii pointer controls.

What I mean by this is that if the developer goes to the effort of having the subscreen hold secondary information such that during away-from-tv play that secondary information is in the form of a HUD then they have already built in "single screen" graphics output. From there they just need to add Wii controls. Those who want to play Wiiremote only can play single screen with a HUD, and those who don't get dual screen play.

I believe it can be done without a HUGE investment if a developer wants to take the simplest approach.

I'm definitely going to give the Upad it's fair shake. If I can come up with an idea for an Ironman game for Wii U in a few minutes, devs should definitely be able to come up with something interesting for the controller.

So is everybody back to realizing that the WiiU really won't be all that powerful? At this point I'm having a hard time believing that it will be viable in the market after the PS4/720 take hold. At least E3 is a few weeks away.

In other news I graduated from college with a degree in Chemistry. I did great (3.495 cumulative) and I have a job lined up already! I can finally get back into doing what I love best: gaming.

Congrats.

When you say viable I do believe that those who prefer a Sony or MS console aren't going to change due to whatever Nintendo does. But the console should still be able to get ports at that time.

Most won't, and will wonder how Nintendo does what they do with the hardware they have. Nintendo knew full well the issues with the 360's CPU. Wasn't Out of Order, there was no I/O controller (could be wrong about this one), no audio DSP (Didn't audio take 16% of the 360's CPU?), I'm surprised the 360 was able to handle what it did.

Yeah in retrospect Xbox 360 has handled certain things surprisingly well even this late.

I guess Move somewhat proves otherwise, but I see your point regarding the wiimote = nongamer association: Move's rejection could just be due to the fact it's basically a wiimote clone, thus being given the same kind of reaction from the same users both in favour and against.

Yeah I was going to say that once the association damage was done, Move wouldn't have been able to shake that view.

 

[Refreshment.01]

Not having an outward-facing camera on the controller would be a HUGE missed opportunity with AR and what not. So many exciting possibilities and would also be a massive selling point to the casual market im sure.

I just can't figure out why Nintendo didn't include it.

That was one of my first observations. I dont know why they dont allow the camera to be rotated outwards, if someone knows a technical reason please share. It's a cheap way to have both bases covered.

 

[BY2K]

Looks like the Wii U GPU was being worked on since at least 2009.

http://se.linkedin.com/in/pavankumarmadasu

 

[bgassassin]

^ Welcome back to the first Wii U thread BY2K.

That was one of my first observations. I dont know why they dont allow the camera to be rotated outwards, if someone knows a technical reason please share. It's a cheap way to have both bases covered.

With the way Nintendo thinks, that could be a secret they are keeping close to their chest.

 

[BY2K]

You have got to be kidding me...

 

[Refreshment.01]

With the way Nintendo thinks, that could be a secret they are keeping close to their chest.

Nah, it won't even in the patent diagrams it is inside the bezel. AR stuff it's a perfect fit for the subscreen. Another weird decision on Nintendo's part.

 

[lunchwithyuzo]

In the Perfect Dark case it featured Parallax Mapping a very taxing effect that went missing for a lot of AAA projects that came later into this generation of consoles. I think it featured HDR aslo. In the case of Kameo while the effects are more or less similar to what we got used to in the Xbox 1 life, it had a monumental increase of them in quantity and complexity, just look at the huge amount of alpha texture being used and the game sported one of the best example of realtime geometry instancing we had seen in a console.

So yes we can safely call them next generation games.

Regardless of the underlying technology, the overall effect of the visuals were still wholly underwhelming. Neither Kameo or PD0 really looked like a 10x increase from late Xbox 1 games like Riddick, Conker, Ninja Gaiden, KUF, etc. All I saw were Xbox-like assets, pulling Xbox-like effects at a resolution Xbox even occasionally hit.

Would you also "safely call" 3DS hardware a "next generation" from PSP technology wise because RER pulls off shader effects that'd be impossible on PSP?

 

[Dreamwriter]

I didn't say didn't look better, I just don't see a full generation ahead. The reason I always compare Kameo with Conker is that I have played both and I don't see that big a difference. Sure, Kameo has extra detail, but not enough to say it's 10x better looking. Now, if you compare them to Banjo nuts and bolts, then you have something.

Looking now, sure, but I was talking about at the time. At the time the XBox 360 launched, everybody was amazed by how these games looked. Say what you will about comparing Kameo to Conker, at the time nobody said that, everybody said how amazing Kameo looked most of the time. At worst people said some of the levels looked like Gamecube upconverts, but they always followed that up with "but the other levels are AMAZING, could never be done in 100 years last gen".

And that's where we are right now, the beginning of the generation. We don't have 6+ years of experience in this generation to compare these launch games against, so the average person should be amazed. As long as they aren't PC gamers